Are dealer maintenance departments for suckers?
May 28, 2009 7:33 PM
Are auto dealer maintenance departments for suckers?
I've got a 2003 Honda Civic, and it needs a new timing belt, a new windshield and a new radio antenna. While it was under warranty, I had everything other than oil changes done at the local Honda dealer, but the warranty's now expired and I own it free and clear.
I'm under the vague impression (from, among others, George Costanza) that dealers charge more for this kind of routine stuff than an independent repair shop would. Anything to this or is it just prejudice and superstition? Any reason - quality of workmanship or reliability, say - to go to a dealer instead of an indie? (I live in western Canada, if that matters at all, and I'm pretty clueless when it comes to anything more complicated than checking the oil.)
I've got a 2003 Honda Civic, and it needs a new timing belt, a new windshield and a new radio antenna. While it was under warranty, I had everything other than oil changes done at the local Honda dealer, but the warranty's now expired and I own it free and clear.
I'm under the vague impression (from, among others, George Costanza) that dealers charge more for this kind of routine stuff than an independent repair shop would. Anything to this or is it just prejudice and superstition? Any reason - quality of workmanship or reliability, say - to go to a dealer instead of an indie? (I live in western Canada, if that matters at all, and I'm pretty clueless when it comes to anything more complicated than checking the oil.)
Dealer's charge more. Plain and simple. Not sure that's any type of secret that the suckers aren't in on.
posted by wfrgms at 7:42 PM on May 28, 2009
posted by wfrgms at 7:42 PM on May 28, 2009
The only reason to go to a dealer is in order to maintain an existing warranty. If your warranty has expired, it makes sense to find a cheaper alternative, such as Canadian Tire. In fact, Canadian Tire is licensed to make repairs and conduct maintenance conforming with the warranty of most major auto manufacturers, including Honda.
So, if you're in Western Canada, check out Canadian Tire... It's where my dad goes (and he owns a Honda, as do I), if it makes any difference.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:45 PM on May 28, 2009
So, if you're in Western Canada, check out Canadian Tire... It's where my dad goes (and he owns a Honda, as do I), if it makes any difference.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:45 PM on May 28, 2009
In the USA, dealer maintenance does nothing to maintain warranties unless the work performed is free. That's from the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
What dealers do have is specialization and extensive training. Dealer mechanics go through much more and much more-specific training than your typical independent shop. They also have access to more complex and costly diagnostic tools that are tailored to the manufacturer's cars. This does not mean that you'll get better services, just that you might. When you've seen hundreds of identical cars all with the same problem, you probably get really good at fixing it. Then again, you might not.
Small shops have less emphasis on profit-seeking, since they have lower overhead (branding, training, equipment, etc). Dealerships also charge based on "book" times, and efficiency gains are pure profit, whereas smaller shops often charge actual time worked. Due to this, labor costs are generally lower. As well, there's certainly a benefit to having seen one of every type of car. Breadth of experience versus depth of experience, really. Combine this with a smaller mechanic population and an emphasis on word-of-mouth for business, and it's conceivable that you may get a higher quality of work. Then again, you might not.
In your specific case, a timing belt job on an ubiquitous car, the dealership likely adds little value over an independent shop and such jobs are common enough as to be nearly impossible to screw up.
posted by TheNewWazoo at 7:57 PM on May 28, 2009
What dealers do have is specialization and extensive training. Dealer mechanics go through much more and much more-specific training than your typical independent shop. They also have access to more complex and costly diagnostic tools that are tailored to the manufacturer's cars. This does not mean that you'll get better services, just that you might. When you've seen hundreds of identical cars all with the same problem, you probably get really good at fixing it. Then again, you might not.
Small shops have less emphasis on profit-seeking, since they have lower overhead (branding, training, equipment, etc). Dealerships also charge based on "book" times, and efficiency gains are pure profit, whereas smaller shops often charge actual time worked. Due to this, labor costs are generally lower. As well, there's certainly a benefit to having seen one of every type of car. Breadth of experience versus depth of experience, really. Combine this with a smaller mechanic population and an emphasis on word-of-mouth for business, and it's conceivable that you may get a higher quality of work. Then again, you might not.
In your specific case, a timing belt job on an ubiquitous car, the dealership likely adds little value over an independent shop and such jobs are common enough as to be nearly impossible to screw up.
posted by TheNewWazoo at 7:57 PM on May 28, 2009
I take my car (Ford) to the dealer. He does not charge more or only marginally more than other locals. He also has great experience with my car. Repairs hundreds of them and gives me detailed estimates, shows me the work and stands behind it. I did not take my BMW to the dealer as I found a mechanic who I trusted.
A blanket statement that dealers charge more and that any dealer is for suckers is well...for suckers. Any repair shop can be good or bad, cheap or expensive. Dealers have guidelines from Ford, GM, Mercedes, BMW, etc that tell them how much time a repair should take and what parts should be used. Repair manuals are extensive. I think if you liked the warranty work the dealer did I would give them a try on other repairs before trying someone else. Having said that, a windshield repair and a radio antenna are pretty basic stuff and can be done by most any shop. Timing belt too is not rocket science.
Sometimes, you can't afford a bargain.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:59 PM on May 28, 2009
A blanket statement that dealers charge more and that any dealer is for suckers is well...for suckers. Any repair shop can be good or bad, cheap or expensive. Dealers have guidelines from Ford, GM, Mercedes, BMW, etc that tell them how much time a repair should take and what parts should be used. Repair manuals are extensive. I think if you liked the warranty work the dealer did I would give them a try on other repairs before trying someone else. Having said that, a windshield repair and a radio antenna are pretty basic stuff and can be done by most any shop. Timing belt too is not rocket science.
Sometimes, you can't afford a bargain.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:59 PM on May 28, 2009
If you do your research, you'll find that you're looking at a "six of one, half dozen of the other" situation.
There are plenty of indie shops that will rip you off and do a crappy job and you'll definitely find dealers that have poor customer service and poor workmanship.
As far as your repairs go, here's my advice.
Windshield replacement is typically done by glass repair specialists. When I worked at an indie shop, a customer would drop their car off, we would contact the glass specialists, and act as a middleman. A dealership can do the same thing.
I would get your antenna replaced by a dealer. They can be a big pain to replace and, if one doesn't spend all day replacing them, they're easy to screw up. Find a decent dealer and go with their experience on that.
You can get your timing belt replaced just about anywhere. A well recommended indie shop will do a fine job and likely cost a couple hundred less than the dealer.
Having worked at an indie shop and at a dealer, I can give a couple pieces of advice:
Routine maintenance can be done pretty well by just about anyone, including you. Brakes, oil-change, various filters, tune ups, A/C charge etc.
Diagnosis, however, I would take to a good dealership. About 75% of malfunctions or failures are common to a make and model and the tech at the dealer can generally diagnose your vehicle more quickly and more accurately due to their familiarity with your car. A major electrical, transmission, engine, or A/C repair is best left to a reputable dealer. It might cost more, but you'll be paying for accuracy, experience, and speed.
The anecdotal experience of others on MeFi might dispute that (ie. all dealers are a rip off) but, having worked at both good dealerships and bad dealerships, I can genuinely tell you that you are in VERY safe hands at a reputable dealership and the price is worth it. I have also seen people become very loyal to their indie shop despite the fact that their car is never fixed right the first time and nobody ever explains what's being repaired.
Your mileage may vary.
posted by Jon-o at 8:02 PM on May 28, 2009
There are plenty of indie shops that will rip you off and do a crappy job and you'll definitely find dealers that have poor customer service and poor workmanship.
As far as your repairs go, here's my advice.
Windshield replacement is typically done by glass repair specialists. When I worked at an indie shop, a customer would drop their car off, we would contact the glass specialists, and act as a middleman. A dealership can do the same thing.
I would get your antenna replaced by a dealer. They can be a big pain to replace and, if one doesn't spend all day replacing them, they're easy to screw up. Find a decent dealer and go with their experience on that.
You can get your timing belt replaced just about anywhere. A well recommended indie shop will do a fine job and likely cost a couple hundred less than the dealer.
Having worked at an indie shop and at a dealer, I can give a couple pieces of advice:
Routine maintenance can be done pretty well by just about anyone, including you. Brakes, oil-change, various filters, tune ups, A/C charge etc.
Diagnosis, however, I would take to a good dealership. About 75% of malfunctions or failures are common to a make and model and the tech at the dealer can generally diagnose your vehicle more quickly and more accurately due to their familiarity with your car. A major electrical, transmission, engine, or A/C repair is best left to a reputable dealer. It might cost more, but you'll be paying for accuracy, experience, and speed.
The anecdotal experience of others on MeFi might dispute that (ie. all dealers are a rip off) but, having worked at both good dealerships and bad dealerships, I can genuinely tell you that you are in VERY safe hands at a reputable dealership and the price is worth it. I have also seen people become very loyal to their indie shop despite the fact that their car is never fixed right the first time and nobody ever explains what's being repaired.
Your mileage may vary.
posted by Jon-o at 8:02 PM on May 28, 2009
The short answer is yes, from what I've seen. Mr. Atrahasis had had his car serviced at a dealer for many years, and the markup on labor and parts was out of this world, and actual costs always, without fail, came in well over their already-high estimates. To make matters worse, the dealer's mechanics made elementary mistakes in their work.
Once, when replacing his battery, they did not attach the contact doohickeys properly with the result that his car died while he was driving it. They never even gave him a refund. After this, he went to a local mechanic who specializes in his type of car, who is quite a bit cheaper, does all sorts of extra little things for free (Mr. Atrahasis broke a visor clip and they fixed it free, things like that).
So, yeah, a long-winded way of saying: find a good local shop.
posted by Atrahasis at 8:07 PM on May 28, 2009
Once, when replacing his battery, they did not attach the contact doohickeys properly with the result that his car died while he was driving it. They never even gave him a refund. After this, he went to a local mechanic who specializes in his type of car, who is quite a bit cheaper, does all sorts of extra little things for free (Mr. Atrahasis broke a visor clip and they fixed it free, things like that).
So, yeah, a long-winded way of saying: find a good local shop.
posted by Atrahasis at 8:07 PM on May 28, 2009
I've had good luck finding mechanics through the car talk website.
posted by sully75 at 8:32 PM on May 28, 2009
posted by sully75 at 8:32 PM on May 28, 2009
Once, when replacing his battery, they did not attach the contact doohickeys properly with the result that his car died while he was driving it./em>
I am not a mechanic, but as far as I know, once the car is started, the battery is not needed to run it. The alternator generates the electricity needed. I have driven with the doohickeys off once I started it as I had no wrench to retighten.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:39 PM on May 28, 2009
I am not a mechanic, but as far as I know, once the car is started, the battery is not needed to run it. The alternator generates the electricity needed. I have driven with the doohickeys off once I started it as I had no wrench to retighten.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:39 PM on May 28, 2009
@JohnnyGunn: He might have turned off his car at a stoplight - I wasn't there but it was mid-trip.
posted by Atrahasis at 9:01 PM on May 28, 2009
posted by Atrahasis at 9:01 PM on May 28, 2009
JohnnyGunn writes "I am not a mechanic, but as far as I know, once the car is started, the battery is not needed to run it. The alternator generates the electricity needed. I have driven with the doohickeys off once I started it as I had no wrench to retighten."
But if your postive doohickey comes off and contacts anything grounded you're going to see an interesting light show at a minimum.
posted by Mitheral at 9:51 PM on May 28, 2009
But if your postive doohickey comes off and contacts anything grounded you're going to see an interesting light show at a minimum.
posted by Mitheral at 9:51 PM on May 28, 2009
Service at my local Ford dealership is excellent, expeditious, competitively priced, courteous, and conscientious. That's why I have work done there on my Fords when they need it.
On at least two past occasions when using independent shops, the mechanics have failed to fix the problems on the first appointment.
Therefore, I tend to dismiss blanket comments which regard all dealer shops as overpriced.
I do have friends who have established good relationships with independent mechanics and would never dream of having repairs done at a dealership. My friends seem very happy with their choices.
posted by imjustsaying at 1:45 AM on May 29, 2009
On at least two past occasions when using independent shops, the mechanics have failed to fix the problems on the first appointment.
Therefore, I tend to dismiss blanket comments which regard all dealer shops as overpriced.
I do have friends who have established good relationships with independent mechanics and would never dream of having repairs done at a dealership. My friends seem very happy with their choices.
posted by imjustsaying at 1:45 AM on May 29, 2009
I've had more indie shops fuck me over with my car than dealers, to be honest. Your mileage can and will vary.
posted by rodgerd at 3:59 AM on May 29, 2009
posted by rodgerd at 3:59 AM on May 29, 2009
A key word someone mentioned above: reputable. Via the Internet or word-of-mouth, it's generally not hard to get some tips.
I've railed against some dealers because it is far from unprecedented that they pad repair bills, relate that things are dire needs when they're not, etc. That said, I had excellent results with a dealer in a small town/area--with purchases and repairs--and with one of the Ford largest dealers in the world.
In relating my happiness to the shop manager at the small place (Ojai, Ca.), he said a couple things: One, the owner had owned the place for decades, was always a fair, honest guy; Two: It was easy to say that and it sounded good, but the area was small enough that they would be ruined by a bad reputation.
Coincidentally, I also took a car to a colossal dealer--Go Galpin!--for a quirkier repair. (Galpin is staggering in its size and width and breadth of offerings. They have their own Starbucks.) As people have mentioned, lots of shops large or small go to the book, bill for labor as per the book--which can feel shady. I have watched guys make repairs in dramatically less time than the book amount.
In this case, 90 minutes for what a service guy acknowledged was a pretty simple remove/replace thing, I felt a bit irked. Turned out to be a long, colossal headache for reasons nobody anticipated--and they stood by the book time, ended up throwing in a free rental while they sorted it out, had to call Ford for advice.
In the course of all that, they related and showed me how someone at an independent shop had tried to do a half-assed workaround.
When they got it done, the service manager said he wasn't sure which one of us was happier to see it finished.
posted by ambient2 at 4:29 AM on May 29, 2009
I've railed against some dealers because it is far from unprecedented that they pad repair bills, relate that things are dire needs when they're not, etc. That said, I had excellent results with a dealer in a small town/area--with purchases and repairs--and with one of the Ford largest dealers in the world.
In relating my happiness to the shop manager at the small place (Ojai, Ca.), he said a couple things: One, the owner had owned the place for decades, was always a fair, honest guy; Two: It was easy to say that and it sounded good, but the area was small enough that they would be ruined by a bad reputation.
Coincidentally, I also took a car to a colossal dealer--Go Galpin!--for a quirkier repair. (Galpin is staggering in its size and width and breadth of offerings. They have their own Starbucks.) As people have mentioned, lots of shops large or small go to the book, bill for labor as per the book--which can feel shady. I have watched guys make repairs in dramatically less time than the book amount.
In this case, 90 minutes for what a service guy acknowledged was a pretty simple remove/replace thing, I felt a bit irked. Turned out to be a long, colossal headache for reasons nobody anticipated--and they stood by the book time, ended up throwing in a free rental while they sorted it out, had to call Ford for advice.
In the course of all that, they related and showed me how someone at an independent shop had tried to do a half-assed workaround.
When they got it done, the service manager said he wasn't sure which one of us was happier to see it finished.
posted by ambient2 at 4:29 AM on May 29, 2009
Like many things in life, your mileage may vary - it often depends upon the dealership and your relationship with them. For example, after the warranty expired on our Town and Country van, we had any necessary repairs made by a local Tuffy Muffler Shop (which actually does much more than just mufflers). We found that Tuffy strictly by accident once in an emergency situation with another vehicle, and the owner/staff there are very helpful and their prices are competitive with other service stations in the area. And after we'd brought our car there twice for some repair work and also sent a friend to the same place, Tuffy offered us free towing from our home to their shop when our car refused to start one day (and it wasn't the battery). When we needed some sort of engine work (I forget exactly what it was) on the Town and Country, the dealership's quote was almost double that of what Tuffy charged us.
On the other hand, my parents have been buying/leasing their vehicles from a specific Ford dealer in Ferndale (Michigan) for the past 10 years or so. My Mom is the type who writes a thank you letter after a sales person has gone out of their way to be helpful, so after all this time the folks at Ed Schmid Ford know my parents by name and give them free oil changes long after their warranty has expired, as well as discounted prices on other repair work. (There have been instances where the dealership charged them just for parts and nothing for labor; in exchange, my Mom is forever recommending Ed Schmid to all her friends in the neighborhood when they're in the market for a new vehicle.)
posted by Oriole Adams at 12:33 PM on May 29, 2009
On the other hand, my parents have been buying/leasing their vehicles from a specific Ford dealer in Ferndale (Michigan) for the past 10 years or so. My Mom is the type who writes a thank you letter after a sales person has gone out of their way to be helpful, so after all this time the folks at Ed Schmid Ford know my parents by name and give them free oil changes long after their warranty has expired, as well as discounted prices on other repair work. (There have been instances where the dealership charged them just for parts and nothing for labor; in exchange, my Mom is forever recommending Ed Schmid to all her friends in the neighborhood when they're in the market for a new vehicle.)
posted by Oriole Adams at 12:33 PM on May 29, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
This is not vague impression. It is often fact, as noted in a billion identical questions on here, although not always. Get quotes, get recommendations locally and make a judgment call.
This is well trodden ground...
posted by Brockles at 7:41 PM on May 28, 2009