A Community that canonized John XXIII?

May 6, 2009 9:45 AM

Is there a Catholic community of more than one church or one leader where the Decision of the Second Vatican Council is followed to the exact letter of the new law rather than implemented in sorts or passed over in certain areas like the Roman Catholic Church?
posted by parmanparman to religion & philosophy (23 comments total)

Could you be a little more specific? Which "decision" or "law" are you talking about?
posted by jquinby at 10:13 AM on May 6

There were sixteen official Documents issued by the Second Vatican Council. Which of them do you feel aren't being followed?
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:22 AM on May 6

Can you be more precise what constitutes following Second Vatican Council to the letter of the law? After all, the Council was a Roman Catholic Church council.

I dunno if you're disillusioned with the RCC or what, but there are Catholic congregations that- as called by people who still oppose changes from the council- are more "liberal," with much more engaging Priests, music, congregational involvement, tend to be more much engaged in human rights, etc.
posted by jmd82 at 10:25 AM on May 6

jmd82 is correct. Given the fairly wide spectrum of leanings across the (arch)dioceses in the US - and I'm only referring to the USCCB here - the answer to your questions is:

Probably.

If you're looking for what some consider a more liberal/V2 diocese, you'll need to look at the episcopal level. Which bishop or archbishop is causing the most foaming on the part of conservatives? Then go there.
posted by jquinby at 10:32 AM on May 6

i was brought up in the byzantine rite--one of the (i believe) 13 branches of the church, although most folks only know about the romans--and i can't speak to how closely they follow vatican ii, but i *can* tell you that they follow it a helluva lot more closely than the romans. i've been 'lapsed' now for many years, so i can't give you hard & fast examples of what's going on in the byzantine church these days, but i can tell you most definitely that my upbringing was a LOT more stringent than the romans i know.
posted by msconduct at 11:09 AM on May 6

If what you're looking for is an ecumenical/open/liberal opposite of the "Traditionalist Catholic" movements, I don't think such a thing exists. Those who hate Vatican II and think the current Vatican is doing too much of what it advised can join sedevacantist groups; those who love Vatican II and think the current Vatican isn't doing enough of what it advised generally work from within the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

Or they leave the church for other religious groups, a la Matthew Fox.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:10 AM on May 6

i was brought up in the byzantine rite--one of the (i believe) 13 branches of the church, although most folks only know about the romans--and i can't speak to how closely they follow vatican ii, but i *can* tell you that they follow it a helluva lot more closely than the romans. i've been 'lapsed' now for many years, so i can't give you hard & fast examples of what's going on in the byzantine church these days, but i can tell you most definitely that my upbringing was a LOT more stringent than the romans i know.


I think this is the opposite. The Byzantine rite has the Nicene Creed, but it is not tied to the Roman Catholic structure nor affiliated with it. I have been reading a lot of Richard John Neuhaus lately and his writings on John XXIII reveal the scope of his thinking of Martin Luther and John XXIII as reformers who found movements but did not do much to facilitate reform in the structures they were attempting to motivate to their goals. In Luther's case, there was a violent response that led to complete change in religious circumstance. For John XXIII, he sought a complete reform of process under the Luther model with the power of the papacy as 'decider', but died just as the ultimate conclusion was reached and was unable to create a legacy of institutional leaders to continue his work. I.e., there was no institutional buy-in.


If what you're looking for is an ecumenical/open/liberal opposite of the "Traditionalist Catholic" movements, I don't think such a thing exists. Those who hate Vatican II and think the current Vatican is doing too much of what it advised can join sedevacantist groups; those who love Vatican II and think the current Vatican isn't doing enough of what it advised generally work from within the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

I fear you are right. Ah, well, I'll have to see if one can be created then. Or, I'll have to go to Rome and tell Benedict I am sorry and then try to instigate reform from within as a layman.

Lame.
posted by parmanparman at 12:30 PM on May 6

There were sixteen official Documents issued by the Second Vatican Council. Which of them do you feel aren't being followed?

This one: Perfectae Caritatis
posted by parmanparman at 12:36 PM on May 6

sorry, i didn't realize you were looking for affiliations with the roman catholic church; i thought you were looking for affiliations with the *catholic* church. Byzantine Catholics are Orthodox Christians who embrace full communion with the Church of Rome and its primate, Pope Benedict XVI, the successor of St. Peter, the first among the Apostles.

please don't mistake the byzantines (or any other branch) as outside of the 'catholic community.' not only is it an insult--even to a lapsed catholic--but condemnation prior to investigation generally doesn't yield the best results.
posted by msconduct at 12:43 PM on May 6

Which part of Perfectae Caritatis do you feel isn't being followed, parmanparman? The "social conditions" part? Or the "poverty" part?

My own perspective is that the most comfortable spiritual home for people who grew up in the "liberation theology" days of the Roman Catholic Church and who are distressed with the direction the church has taken in recent years is the Episcopal Church and other churches in the Anglican Communion. But that's me. Well, me and hundreds of thousands of other people.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:56 PM on May 6

This one: Perfectae Caritatis

While allowing that I've only give this a cursory glance, it seems (on the surface, anyway) to focus on Religious communities and the life therein. Namely:

In order that the great value of a life consecrated by the profession of the counsels and its necessary mission today may yield greater good to the Church, the sacred synod lays down the following prescriptions. They are meant to state only the general principles of the adaptation and renewal of the life and discipline of Religious orders and also, without prejudice to their special characteristics, of societies of common life without vows and secular institutes. Particular norms for the proper explanation and application of these principles are to be determined after the council by the authority in question.

Have you looked at all at any of the religious communities in your area? You may find what you're looking for among the professed religious, many of which communities offer lay-involvement in various capacities - the Lay Cistercians, for example. These are organizations that are not (as I understand it) under the supervision of the local bishop, but rather to their own superior or ordinary, but still ultimately answerable to the Bishop of Rome.
posted by jquinby at 1:11 PM on May 6

sorry, i didn't realize you were looking for affiliations with the roman catholic church; i thought you were looking for affiliations with the *catholic* church. Byzantine Catholics are Orthodox Christians who embrace full communion with the Church of Rome and its primate, Pope Benedict XVI, the successor of St. Peter, the first among the Apostles.

Ah, I was thinking you were talking about the Orthodox Church with its Patriarch in Instanbul who is not in communion with Rome. While I knew there was a Byzantine Catholic Church in communion I did not make the connection, I am sorry.

the Lay Cistercians, for example. These are organizations that are not (as I understand it) under the supervision of the local bishop, but rather to their own superior or ordinary, but still ultimately answerable to the Bishop of Rome.

The majority of Catholic holy orders are like this. But I am not looking for something that is a diocesan movement because it would not have a lot of traction and is not reform-oriented. This one is lay, which means it still is dependent on a structure that has not implemented, in my opinion, Vatican II correctly.

As to Sidhedevel, I don't think any of it is being followed but this is not the place to flesh out my beliefs.
posted by parmanparman at 1:20 PM on May 6

...I should probably add that many Religious communities add other obligations to their members, beyond what you might see in any of the documents issued to the Church at large: communal prayer in the form of the Divine Office for one. Many follow a calendar with slightly different feasts recognizing saints from within their own ranks, and so on.
posted by jquinby at 1:21 PM on May 6

Then I'm not at all clear on what you seek - the document in question generally covers Religious life, defined as those communities that are organized by some sort of Rule, and exhorts them towards a more perfect expression of faith in Christ. If you want to know whether or not PC is "being implemented," that's where you'd need to look.

For my part, I'd like to see more Unitatis Redintegratio among the rank and file, but that's just me.
posted by jquinby at 1:30 PM on May 6

Well, jquinby, it's not rocket science. I believe that John XXIII was trying to finally enact, through the most radical authoritarian approach, the theses of Martin Luther. I am looking for a community that lives with the Decision of the Second Vatican Council as a primary legal document rather than one that implements it with only pick-and-mix participation of all its canons and pronouncements on the spirit of ordinary and religious life. I want to find a community that implemented Vatican II in the spirit of its lead author and instigator and who reveres John XXIII accordingly as a body.
posted by parmanparman at 1:38 PM on May 6

>>I want to find a community that implemented Vatican II in the spirit of its lead author and instigator and who reveres John XXIII accordingly as a body.

Why not say found instead of find?
posted by sagwalla at 1:48 PM on May 6 [1 favorite has favorites]

I want to find a community that implemented Vatican II in the spirit of its lead author and instigator and who reveres John XXIII accordingly as a body.

I think what you are likely to find is that the documents of Vatican II have been interpreted and implemented by lots of different groups in lots of different ways, all across the spectrum. Locating one that is more true to the documents than another may prove as every bit as difficult as sorting out which group is more Traditional than the next. Like the old Orthodox joke*.


* Two people meet on a train. After some introductory chat, they discover both are Orthodox and of Russian descent.
Vlad: Old Calendar or New Calendar?
Alex: Old.
Vlad: Very good. Do you have a three-hour Vigil in church every Saturday night and before every holy day, even if the holy day is on a Monday?
Alex: Yes.
Vlad: Excellent. Pews or no pews?
Alex: No.
Vlad: Clean-shaven or bearded priest?
Alex: Bearded.
Vlad: Does he wear his cassock and cross on the street?
Alex: Da.
Vlad: Is your jurisdiction ecumenist or non-ecumenist?
Alex: Non.
Vlad: Do you have an old-man Trinity icon?
Alex: Uh, yes.
Vlad: Aha! Heretic!
posted by jquinby at 2:02 PM on May 6

parmanparman, after reading this thread, I'm not entirely clear what you're seeking. I'm not a theologian, and I won't try to interpret or analyze Perfectæ Caritatis, and I'm not familiar with the laws of any religious order.

Within the Catholic community, I think you'll find very faithful implementation of community in the laity. Right now I live at a Catholic Worker house, and some of the community members here are simultaneously very orthodox and very radical. (Dorothy Day wrote: "When it comes to labor and politics, . . . I am inclined to be sympathetic to the left, but when it comes to the Catholic Church, then I am far to the right.")

I think you're looking for a very, very specific thing, and I don't know if you'll find it. But I'd encourage you to talk with folks at your local Catholic Worker (there are several in the Bay Area) to see the way they implement community in the Catholic tradition.

Probably this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but I thought I'd add my voice anyway. Peace!
posted by Sfving at 3:32 PM on May 6 [1 favorite has favorites]

Honestly, I think there's no objectively correct answer to this question. Unlike most people's conception, the bishop of any one diocese is the teacher in that area and the Pope, while having special teaching authority, is still first among equals. VII is not articulated well enough to provide point-by-point guidance on the practice of the sacraments, on the church's role in the world, etc. Even the revised rites allow enormous leeway, not only for each bishop, but for each presiding priest. There is no one way to live as a Vatican II Catholic and most (if not all) bishops in the world presume they're doing it correctly, to the letter.
posted by l33tpolicywonk at 7:46 PM on May 6

I wrote a really long winding explanation last night and realized in the middle of it that I was really most in need of an enabling community that fosters the kinds of transformation and social partnership I have tried to instill in many organizations. I am wasting a lot of time in forums where I won't get an answer. I think I'll ask one more question and then I am going to turn off my membership for a year and see where I get.

Thanks for all of your answers even if there is no definitive one. I realize how murky the waters of faith can be and that, as humans, we should expect that inward reflection will bring the greatest and most fulfilling answer to the questions we seek to answer about our own experience.
posted by parmanparman at 5:46 AM on May 7

I am not sure what you are looking for either, but last year I took a week long seminar on Roman Catholic Social Justice Teaching. Having been raised in the Church, I was astounded by the variety of interpretations and practices considered orthodox enough to fall into the category "Roman Catholic." In fact I still can't get my head around it.

From your link:

d) Institutes should promote among their members an adequate knowledge of the social conditions of the times they live in and of the needs of the Church. In such a way, judging current events wisely in the light of faith and burning with apostolic zeal, they may be able to assist men more effectively.

The Augustinian university were I work takes this seriously. Perhaps a socially active Augustinian group is what you seek? In the Philadelphia area at least there are several Catholic organizations working directly with the needy who do admirable work. But then again, I think you're asking something else.

At any rate, the Catholic Social Justice teachings inspired by Vatican II are worth reading (except for the ones on gender. Ugh.)
posted by vincele at 9:19 AM on May 7

vincele, which university is this?
posted by parmanparman at 11:47 AM on May 7

I'll Memail you the name of the school-- though of course I know net anonymity is a joke.

You probably already are familiar with this but on the off-chance you're not, I suggest Pope Leo XIII's encyclical Rerum Novarum, On the Condition of the Working Classes (1891).

I might mess up the link because it is the first time I've tried linking. If I do you can find Rerum Novarum all over the web. It's the start of the CST tradition. A main tenet of CST is "preferential treatment for the poor." There's another keyword for you.
posted by vincele at 8:01 AM on May 8