How do I learn to be a man?
March 29, 2009 12:09 PM Subscribe
I grew up not believing in gender roles, and until recently shunned stereotypical masculine behaviours, not wanting to be a "macho meathead". What are some examples and resources to help me become more of a man?
To give additional context: I never had an older brother to teach me how to be a guy who other guys respect. My father is fantastic, but he's not very masculine.
I used to drive my ex-girlfriends insane with indecisive I was. I used to apologise to people all of the time. I was very uncomfortable with the idea of me being a physical protector of my girlfriend, because I thought it was old-fashioned and sexist.
Don't worry, I'm not going to go overboard. I'm simply looking to learn the basic masculine social skills that most other guys learn growing up. To give an analogy: if a complete tomboy asked me how she might be more feminine, I might tell her some mannerisms that are feminine without being ridiculous, and name some films and books that have feminine yet not-frivolous characters she might learn from.
I hope you're not going to tell me to copy Tucker Max or Fight Club or Donald Trump. I just want to be a reasonable, confident, comfortable man. I hope I don't need to get into fights or belittle people, but at the same time, I don't want to be a sissy.
The changes I've already made seem very natural to me, and my peers have responded really well, as have women. Nothing too drastic: mainly, I just stopped being so apologetic for my presence, roughhouse a little more with male friends, acknowledge the femininity of female friends a little more. Nothing at all drastic.
The area I'm particularly interested in is how strong, reasonable males resolve arguments and conflict in friendships and relationships. I have a tendency to over explain myself and to apologise.
I've set up the email account learning.to.be.a.man@gmail.com for this question. Thanks in advance.
To give additional context: I never had an older brother to teach me how to be a guy who other guys respect. My father is fantastic, but he's not very masculine.
I used to drive my ex-girlfriends insane with indecisive I was. I used to apologise to people all of the time. I was very uncomfortable with the idea of me being a physical protector of my girlfriend, because I thought it was old-fashioned and sexist.
Don't worry, I'm not going to go overboard. I'm simply looking to learn the basic masculine social skills that most other guys learn growing up. To give an analogy: if a complete tomboy asked me how she might be more feminine, I might tell her some mannerisms that are feminine without being ridiculous, and name some films and books that have feminine yet not-frivolous characters she might learn from.
I hope you're not going to tell me to copy Tucker Max or Fight Club or Donald Trump. I just want to be a reasonable, confident, comfortable man. I hope I don't need to get into fights or belittle people, but at the same time, I don't want to be a sissy.
The changes I've already made seem very natural to me, and my peers have responded really well, as have women. Nothing too drastic: mainly, I just stopped being so apologetic for my presence, roughhouse a little more with male friends, acknowledge the femininity of female friends a little more. Nothing at all drastic.
The area I'm particularly interested in is how strong, reasonable males resolve arguments and conflict in friendships and relationships. I have a tendency to over explain myself and to apologise.
I've set up the email account learning.to.be.a.man@gmail.com for this question. Thanks in advance.
I reckon The Art of Manliness is just what you're looking for.
posted by a young man in spats at 12:25 PM on March 29, 2009
posted by a young man in spats at 12:25 PM on March 29, 2009
Watch Mad Men.
posted by one_bean at 12:26 PM on March 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by one_bean at 12:26 PM on March 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
Learn to belch so loud you make women jump. Wait, no, don't change a thing. I grew up with a dad who did all the laundry, vacuuming, dusting, dishes...etc. He coached our sports teams, could fix anything that ever broke in the house, and uses power tools. He also takes bubble baths. He's the most manly guy I know and is the best role model I (his daughter) could have. Girls can grow up and do anything they want. So can boys. There is no learning to be a man involved. There's being a responsible and productive adult, genitalia be damned.
posted by phunniemee at 12:28 PM on March 29, 2009 [32 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 12:28 PM on March 29, 2009 [32 favorites]
"Be a man" is a fool's lament.
If you're looking for an accurate portrayal of a man in contemporary media, I'd say the absolute best one I'm aware of is Tim Riggins in the tv show Friday Night Lights.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 12:33 PM on March 29, 2009
If you're looking for an accurate portrayal of a man in contemporary media, I'd say the absolute best one I'm aware of is Tim Riggins in the tv show Friday Night Lights.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 12:33 PM on March 29, 2009
Despite what anthropologists in San Francisco will tell you, men and women are different. We are more than actors playing out 'roles' given to us by society. We're part of a generation of men raised by females.For me, the basic 'man' model is all about confidence, in thought, action and appearance. Good luck, and check out this previous thread
posted by limited slip at 12:36 PM on March 29, 2009
posted by limited slip at 12:36 PM on March 29, 2009
You sound like me, but more manly and much more apologetic for being apologetic. I'll see myself as a protector in situations where I'm the physically stronger one (not always the case, m or f). If you want "manly", grow some facial hair. Otherwise, you're good the way you are. Again, we sound very similar, and I'm fairly certain that I could hammer a nail into a board with my penis if I really worked at it, and that's pretty manly, no?
posted by zerokey at 12:36 PM on March 29, 2009
posted by zerokey at 12:36 PM on March 29, 2009
If you're looking for an accurate portrayal of a man in contemporary media, I'd say the absolute best one I'm aware of is Tim Riggins in the tv show Friday Night Lights.
Or Coach Taylor.
posted by jschu at 12:42 PM on March 29, 2009
Check between you legs, does the junk down there look like male junk?
You're a man.
Reasonable people resolve arguments by weighing the chances of being correct against the value of the relationship involved.
A lot of disagreement stems from unresolvable opinions on politics, religion etc, you can't always "resolve" those types of conflicts, just agree to disagree or label the person dumb as rocks and forget you knew them.
All disagreements end better if you follow the golden rule.
Now, go take that bubble bath.
posted by Max Power at 12:49 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
You're a man.
Reasonable people resolve arguments by weighing the chances of being correct against the value of the relationship involved.
A lot of disagreement stems from unresolvable opinions on politics, religion etc, you can't always "resolve" those types of conflicts, just agree to disagree or label the person dumb as rocks and forget you knew them.
All disagreements end better if you follow the golden rule.
Now, go take that bubble bath.
posted by Max Power at 12:49 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Not sure how masculine most of your examples are. Indecisiveness is annoying in both sexes; you'd probably find a constantly apologetic excessively verbose self-justifying ("over-explaining") woman annoying too; and people should be protective of each other to some degree (which varies in every relationship depending on the specific personalities involved). Acknowledging the sexiness of one's target sex is also something people seem to do across genders. Of all the things you mentioned, I guess roughhousing is the only stereotypically masculine example I see. All the rest is just learning to be a little more confident, assertive, and respectful of people's fondness for not being annoyed, which (these days) is the same advice you'd get if you were a girl.
That's not so say there might not be a few specifically masculine things left for you to learn, but I'm not sure that's always the most helpful lens to filter things through.
posted by trig at 12:51 PM on March 29, 2009 [5 favorites]
That's not so say there might not be a few specifically masculine things left for you to learn, but I'm not sure that's always the most helpful lens to filter things through.
posted by trig at 12:51 PM on March 29, 2009 [5 favorites]
Watch Old Westerns with Gary Cooper in them.
posted by Abiezer at 1:00 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Abiezer at 1:00 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
This is really interesting... I would say that being indecisive is not a female trait. Are you saying that your female relatives cannot manage supermarket shopping? Or are they managing most of the family's spending decisions just fine? What women tend to be rigidly trained to do is to not push their opinion forcefully in opposition to that of their senior male relatives or co-workers. Not only is that socially a no-no, it may be totally counterproductive both in gaining their current point and in having their opinion taken seriously in future. Think about the type of insults used about assertive women, and the way they are used to totally discount the need to listen to the women's opinions. (Perhaps reading some of the advice to women about assertiveness, ie getting your voice actually heard, may be useful to you.)
This is reflected in the way that advice above about manliness includes instructions to act more confident. Are they saying manliness means not listening to others' opinions?
I suggest you look around you in your chosen field of employment and judge what is needed now and in the future. I said "senior male colleagues" above because in many fields these days younger men are much less sexist and more cooperative generally -- but this varies considerably between fields and between companies, as well as between cultures. Looking at the future there are indications that in many fields true teamwork is becoming more important. It may not be a good idea to consciously remodel yourself on the single-minded, trample-on-everyone-else type of businessman.
posted by Idcoytco at 1:10 PM on March 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
This is reflected in the way that advice above about manliness includes instructions to act more confident. Are they saying manliness means not listening to others' opinions?
I suggest you look around you in your chosen field of employment and judge what is needed now and in the future. I said "senior male colleagues" above because in many fields these days younger men are much less sexist and more cooperative generally -- but this varies considerably between fields and between companies, as well as between cultures. Looking at the future there are indications that in many fields true teamwork is becoming more important. It may not be a good idea to consciously remodel yourself on the single-minded, trample-on-everyone-else type of businessman.
posted by Idcoytco at 1:10 PM on March 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
jschu and Anonymous Check out this NPR interview with Kyle Chandler aka 'Coach Taylor' Overall a good interview, and right around the 17:00 mark he addresses the topic of this thread.
posted by limited slip at 1:15 PM on March 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by limited slip at 1:15 PM on March 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
There is nothing, nothing at all in the world, to being a man except the constant state of being your own person. That is, living a life decided by yourself—not another woman, not another man, and certainly not society's idea of either.
posted by trotter at 1:18 PM on March 29, 2009 [7 favorites]
posted by trotter at 1:18 PM on March 29, 2009 [7 favorites]
It is not a bad thing to want to work toward incorporating positive attributes that are considered masculine into your personal mannerisms and your interactions with others. Good luck! But don't go overboard.
posted by Number Used Once at 1:20 PM on March 29, 2009
posted by Number Used Once at 1:20 PM on March 29, 2009
What trig, Phalene and Idcoytco said.
There's a certain combination of calmness, confidence and competence that crosses gender lines and are found in practical people like the best nurses, paramedics, engineers and military people. Of course, not all members of these professions reach this standard -- I know several bitchy and bullying loose cannons who work in those areas -- but the best do make me feel relaxed, happy and confident around them, no matter what the circumstances are.
What things are you good at? Where are you most confident and knowledgable? How do you behave when acting in or explaining something in your sphere of competence? If you have even one corner of your life where you are confident and unapologetic -- and it doesn't have to be something huge and dramatic -- then you should be able to extend that to other parts of your life.
If you don't have an area or two in your life where you do well, spend some time gaining confidence and self-esteem by becoming good at something. That alone should help with your global sense of self-confidence.
posted by maudlin at 1:23 PM on March 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
There's a certain combination of calmness, confidence and competence that crosses gender lines and are found in practical people like the best nurses, paramedics, engineers and military people. Of course, not all members of these professions reach this standard -- I know several bitchy and bullying loose cannons who work in those areas -- but the best do make me feel relaxed, happy and confident around them, no matter what the circumstances are.
What things are you good at? Where are you most confident and knowledgable? How do you behave when acting in or explaining something in your sphere of competence? If you have even one corner of your life where you are confident and unapologetic -- and it doesn't have to be something huge and dramatic -- then you should be able to extend that to other parts of your life.
If you don't have an area or two in your life where you do well, spend some time gaining confidence and self-esteem by becoming good at something. That alone should help with your global sense of self-confidence.
posted by maudlin at 1:23 PM on March 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
As far as resolving arguments and conflicts in relationships and friendships, I think the less macho you are the better it is - it is easier to reach a conclusion if you're not throwing your temper around and punching walls. Wall punching is in the top 5 of my list of turn offs.
Being apologetic for your presence has nothing to do with gender roles - NO one should do it, that lack of confidence isn't sexy. If people are hanging out with you or dating you it's because they like you and you don't need to apologize, if they're not hanging out with you then screw them anyway, they don't deserve you being apologetic for no reason.
But here are some things that make me think of someone as a man instead of just a guy, and some things that I prefer the guy to do:
- offer to drive most of the time (I don't always take up the offer, but it's a nice gesture)
- open car doors and other doors
- always grab the bag (not the purse, but if a girl bought something or is carrying something to the car, etc)
- hold out your hand when you're walking somewhere muddy/slippery
- be protective when crossing the street
- know how to fix things. There is nothing sexier than this. Sure, girls can fix and build things just as well, but it's nice to be taken care of in this way.
- if there is something a girl needs to do that sucks (such as going to a car mechanic because they're always freakin' creepy and watching porn or something in their dirty little garage offices, ugh), it's awesome when a guy offers to go with, even if he's just a friend.
All of the above things make me feel like a girl who is being taken care of (not in a belittling way), and in turn makes me think of the guy as manlier.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 1:31 PM on March 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
Being apologetic for your presence has nothing to do with gender roles - NO one should do it, that lack of confidence isn't sexy. If people are hanging out with you or dating you it's because they like you and you don't need to apologize, if they're not hanging out with you then screw them anyway, they don't deserve you being apologetic for no reason.
But here are some things that make me think of someone as a man instead of just a guy, and some things that I prefer the guy to do:
- offer to drive most of the time (I don't always take up the offer, but it's a nice gesture)
- open car doors and other doors
- always grab the bag (not the purse, but if a girl bought something or is carrying something to the car, etc)
- hold out your hand when you're walking somewhere muddy/slippery
- be protective when crossing the street
- know how to fix things. There is nothing sexier than this. Sure, girls can fix and build things just as well, but it's nice to be taken care of in this way.
- if there is something a girl needs to do that sucks (such as going to a car mechanic because they're always freakin' creepy and watching porn or something in their dirty little garage offices, ugh), it's awesome when a guy offers to go with, even if he's just a friend.
All of the above things make me feel like a girl who is being taken care of (not in a belittling way), and in turn makes me think of the guy as manlier.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 1:31 PM on March 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
Let me disagree with virtually everyone in this thread. You are right that it would be silly to try to be some kind of macho stereotype, but the learning how to send the subtle "I'm a man" cues in our society is a good thing. If you were going to spend a decade in a foreign country, it would be a huge help if a friend pulled you aside and said "You might not pick up on it at first, but men are typically expected to do behavior X here, and in this situation they do behavior Y." Almost anyone would say "Gee, thanks! Good to know!" But for some reason if you want to figure those cues out in your own society, liberal orthodoxy leads a bunch of folks to say "No! No! Keep on not fitting in!" I understand that we're railing against a patriarchal past, and trying to move into the future, but they can do their own sociological change in their own ways. You want to know how to be inculturated into basic, not extreme, gendered expectation of your own society, and anyone who isn't on board with that just isn't answering your question and needs to just move on to some other thread.
Part of my study in graduate school was on gendered communication styles, and I think it might help you to read some analyses of the the differences in typical male and female styles. Deborah Tannen has done a good job of popularizing the research in books like You Just Don't Understand: Men and Women in Conversation, but the more scholarly Gender and Discourse might be of interest as well. You'll be reading them from a different perspective than most of her audience, but to have an expert point out the exact things that men and women tend to do in conversations will give you a guide for "masculinizing" your speech patterns.
As far as movies/TV go there are probably lots of examples, but because my wife is addicted to it, the first thing I thought of was Seeley Booth on the show Bones. He's a classic male archetype of the protector type, but he's warm and relatable. A lot of the episodes feature him overtly trying to show Bones how to relate to people. That would be a good character to watch closely, in my opinion.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 1:35 PM on March 29, 2009 [18 favorites]
Part of my study in graduate school was on gendered communication styles, and I think it might help you to read some analyses of the the differences in typical male and female styles. Deborah Tannen has done a good job of popularizing the research in books like You Just Don't Understand: Men and Women in Conversation, but the more scholarly Gender and Discourse might be of interest as well. You'll be reading them from a different perspective than most of her audience, but to have an expert point out the exact things that men and women tend to do in conversations will give you a guide for "masculinizing" your speech patterns.
As far as movies/TV go there are probably lots of examples, but because my wife is addicted to it, the first thing I thought of was Seeley Booth on the show Bones. He's a classic male archetype of the protector type, but he's warm and relatable. A lot of the episodes feature him overtly trying to show Bones how to relate to people. That would be a good character to watch closely, in my opinion.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 1:35 PM on March 29, 2009 [18 favorites]
Watch The Man Show?
Don't do this. The faults you describe- inconfidence, overexplaining, indecisiveness, are just as annoying in women. Learn to trust in yourself, but don't try to be "more of a man". You're barking up the wrong tree.
posted by dunkadunc at 1:41 PM on March 29, 2009
Don't do this. The faults you describe- inconfidence, overexplaining, indecisiveness, are just as annoying in women. Learn to trust in yourself, but don't try to be "more of a man". You're barking up the wrong tree.
posted by dunkadunc at 1:41 PM on March 29, 2009
Wow, I couldn't disagree more with the posters saying this is a dumb idea. I have noticed that a lot of guys of my generation (early 30's) and younger are appallingly bereft of manners and gentlemanliness. I understand it's because we were raised to throw the gender roles out the window in order to avoid unintentionally offending anyone, but the result is a bunch of confused men who can't ask a woman out on a proper date, don't want to commit to a relationship, take up seats on public transportation while pregnant women stand, etc. I realize this is a gross generalization but the tendency is there. When I lived in New York (i'm from California) I was a bit taken aback at first when men would hold doors open for me and let me on and off the elevator first, but now being back in the Bay Area I'm much more conscious of men doing the opposite. I find it rude, and honestly, very unsexy. When a man stands by doing nothing while I'm struggling to lift a heavy box, for example, I sort of think of him as more than just inconsiderate, but a wimp. Same thing when I hear about friends getting knocked up, then the guy doesn't want to get married because that's so old-fashioned and patriarchal, but then a few years later he's gone. It's just...unmanly.
posted by apostrophe at 1:45 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by apostrophe at 1:45 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
Sometimes I hate being a man, mainly because the role models of manliness as displayed by the stereotypical belching frat boy is borne of insecurity and selfishness. If that's what you're after then find someone to spoil you unconditionally for the first 20 years of your life.
The times when I feel good about being a man are borne out of a desire to protect or serve those around you over the needs of oneself. There's a character in Good Omens which I think may illustrate this.
If that's what your after I'd try and get adopted by Smedleyman ;)
posted by fullerine at 1:47 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
The times when I feel good about being a man are borne out of a desire to protect or serve those around you over the needs of oneself. There's a character in Good Omens which I think may illustrate this.
[Crowley] "vaguely recall[s] a pipe, and a cardigan with the kind of zigzag pattern that went out of style in 1938". He wears a tie every day, "even on Saturdays". His car is in immaculate condition, but not in the sense that Crowley's Bentley is kept in shape: "its owner had spent every weekend for two decades doing all the things the manual said should be done every weekend", because those were the things "serious-minded men who smoked pipes and wore moustaches" should do.
"Archimedes said that with a long enough lever and a solid enough place to stand, he could move the world. He could have stood on Mr Young".If that's what your after I'd try and get adopted by Smedleyman ;)
posted by fullerine at 1:47 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
...and I definitely don't think of 'frat boy' as code for masculine. that's why they're called boys.
posted by apostrophe at 1:50 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by apostrophe at 1:50 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Phunnieemee and Phalene make excellent points.
To add, it really does seem like you're lacking confidence and you're conflating that with "Masculinity". Your friends and loved don't seem to be very genuine or supportive if they didn't accept you before you tried to become more of what they think you should be rather than who you already are. Do they actually use the term "sissy" or imply such a thing? That can be a hit on any man's confidence.
Who wants to be around people like that? Find people who respect you to spend your time with.
You're fine the way you are, respectable and respectful. (Though "indecisiveness" and being overly apologetic aren't female traits, I don't know where you got that idea from.)
I just want to be a reasonable, confident, comfortable man.
Then be confident in who you are. Sensitive men can be confident, sexy, and comfortable. The key is the confidence. I'm a woman. We're not all into the same qualities in men. I like respectful men. I'm not interested in men as physical protectors. I'm almost completely uninterested in tall or large men.
You might try a short course of therapy to work on your self-esteem issues a little. Maybe you're young and still finding yourself. That's okay too, but it may help to discuss it with someone outside your circle of friends and peers who are apparently less than understanding.
posted by cmgonzalez at 1:52 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
To add, it really does seem like you're lacking confidence and you're conflating that with "Masculinity". Your friends and loved don't seem to be very genuine or supportive if they didn't accept you before you tried to become more of what they think you should be rather than who you already are. Do they actually use the term "sissy" or imply such a thing? That can be a hit on any man's confidence.
Who wants to be around people like that? Find people who respect you to spend your time with.
You're fine the way you are, respectable and respectful. (Though "indecisiveness" and being overly apologetic aren't female traits, I don't know where you got that idea from.)
I just want to be a reasonable, confident, comfortable man.
Then be confident in who you are. Sensitive men can be confident, sexy, and comfortable. The key is the confidence. I'm a woman. We're not all into the same qualities in men. I like respectful men. I'm not interested in men as physical protectors. I'm almost completely uninterested in tall or large men.
You might try a short course of therapy to work on your self-esteem issues a little. Maybe you're young and still finding yourself. That's okay too, but it may help to discuss it with someone outside your circle of friends and peers who are apparently less than understanding.
posted by cmgonzalez at 1:52 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
If I was a woman I'd be a little offended at your suggestion that women are weak and apologetic and so on, as you're implying you are.
1. Join a fighting gym, and 2. stop apologizing for or over-justifying things you don't need to.
posted by glider at 1:54 PM on March 29, 2009
1. Join a fighting gym, and 2. stop apologizing for or over-justifying things you don't need to.
posted by glider at 1:54 PM on March 29, 2009
When I lived in New York (i'm from California) I was a bit taken aback at first when men would hold doors open for me and let me on and off the elevator first
I'm from New York and I am still taken aback by this. Why should you treat me any differently just because I'm a woman? I'm not too delicate as to be unable to wait a moment while you exit the elevator. I hold doors open for anyone. That's how it should be. These outdated customs are sexist toward men and patronizing toward women.
The OP has the right attitude if it's genuine and not merely fear of offending. He should just spend more time around those who appreciate him for who he is and not those who make him feel inadequate or like he has to change to be accepted.
posted by cmgonzalez at 1:57 PM on March 29, 2009
I'm from New York and I am still taken aback by this. Why should you treat me any differently just because I'm a woman? I'm not too delicate as to be unable to wait a moment while you exit the elevator. I hold doors open for anyone. That's how it should be. These outdated customs are sexist toward men and patronizing toward women.
The OP has the right attitude if it's genuine and not merely fear of offending. He should just spend more time around those who appreciate him for who he is and not those who make him feel inadequate or like he has to change to be accepted.
posted by cmgonzalez at 1:57 PM on March 29, 2009
You might find some useful information in No More Mr. Nice Guy and Being the Strong Man a Woman Wants. The first one is all about trying to please yourself and not everyone else instead and really has nothing to do with extending the patriarchy or whatever. The second might seem a bit stereotypical but underneath that it can really open your eyes to a lot of new things.
posted by Durin's Bane at 1:57 PM on March 29, 2009
posted by Durin's Bane at 1:57 PM on March 29, 2009
I'm from New York and I am still taken aback by this. Why should you treat me any differently just because I'm a woman? I'm not too delicate as to be unable to wait a moment while you exit the elevator. I hold doors open for anyone. That's how it should be. These outdated customs are sexist toward men and patronizing toward women.
Well, there you go. So the fear of offending someone by doing that sort of thing is apparently not unfounded. But personally, I like it. I would also guess that you're going to offend more women by letting a door close in their faces than holding it open for them.
posted by apostrophe at 2:06 PM on March 29, 2009
Well, there you go. So the fear of offending someone by doing that sort of thing is apparently not unfounded. But personally, I like it. I would also guess that you're going to offend more women by letting a door close in their faces than holding it open for them.
posted by apostrophe at 2:06 PM on March 29, 2009
Just see Kipling's "If":
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:19 PM on March 29, 2009 [8 favorites]
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:19 PM on March 29, 2009 [8 favorites]
HELLO, he said that he doesn't want to become a belching, wall-punching frat boy. If you're only going to judge his desire instead of answering his question, go waste your time on someone else's question.
Now. This is one of my favorite topics.
I watch a lot of old movies, and so should you. Granted, there are a lot of backwards, glad-we-left-that-behind behaviors. But on the whole, I really wish that men still acted that way. My favorite example would be Stephen Boyd in Lisa/The Inspector. I just kept thinking how many he was, always having everything under control, taking care of shit, always looking out for Lisa's best interest, respecting her boundaries. I think the most important and most lacking characteristic you'll see in men in old movies is Honor.
Read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. I learned a lot about men and a lot about myself. Some of it sounds so silly (waves, caves, and rubber bands), but if you read with an open mind, it will change your life. He also discusses men who think that they're getting in touch with their feminine sides while actually subverting positive masculine characteristics.
You might also try reading Man of Steel and Velvet by Aubrey Andelin. This is true old school stuff. I read the companion book written by his wife, Fascinating Girl. It's a dating book, but contrary to other dating books, in addition to talking about how to get men, it discusses how to become a better person (radical, I know! We live in a time in which no one wants to hear how they ought to be or act from someone else). There's a ton of Christian stuff in the books that might not apply. Andelin discusses Self-Mastery as a masculine character trait, and uses mastery over the sin of lust as an example. You probably don't think sex is a sin, but the self-mastery part might be valuable to you.
Also read some body language books. They usually discuss the different mannerisms of men and women. For example, men always take up a lot of space: sitting with their legs spread far apart, their arms spread out on the table.
Good luck!
posted by thebazilist at 2:29 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
Now. This is one of my favorite topics.
I watch a lot of old movies, and so should you. Granted, there are a lot of backwards, glad-we-left-that-behind behaviors. But on the whole, I really wish that men still acted that way. My favorite example would be Stephen Boyd in Lisa/The Inspector. I just kept thinking how many he was, always having everything under control, taking care of shit, always looking out for Lisa's best interest, respecting her boundaries. I think the most important and most lacking characteristic you'll see in men in old movies is Honor.
Read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. I learned a lot about men and a lot about myself. Some of it sounds so silly (waves, caves, and rubber bands), but if you read with an open mind, it will change your life. He also discusses men who think that they're getting in touch with their feminine sides while actually subverting positive masculine characteristics.
You might also try reading Man of Steel and Velvet by Aubrey Andelin. This is true old school stuff. I read the companion book written by his wife, Fascinating Girl. It's a dating book, but contrary to other dating books, in addition to talking about how to get men, it discusses how to become a better person (radical, I know! We live in a time in which no one wants to hear how they ought to be or act from someone else). There's a ton of Christian stuff in the books that might not apply. Andelin discusses Self-Mastery as a masculine character trait, and uses mastery over the sin of lust as an example. You probably don't think sex is a sin, but the self-mastery part might be valuable to you.
Also read some body language books. They usually discuss the different mannerisms of men and women. For example, men always take up a lot of space: sitting with their legs spread far apart, their arms spread out on the table.
Good luck!
posted by thebazilist at 2:29 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
I'm a competent, drive-the-car, hold-the-door kind of modern guy but there just aren't a lot of opportunities in 21st c. American life to treat a woman like a lady without insulting her — which is a good thing and a sign of progress but can be a little frustrating.
But I've been taking swing dance (specifically, lindy hop) lessons with my girlfriend, and I have to say it's really refreshing to be in a situation where I'm supposed to plant a strong lead hand in the small of her back and control her; where if I don't make a series of snap decisions and forcefully, physically, communicate them to her, or if she resists in any way, it all falls apart.
So, find a swing dance class. You don't need to bring a partner (although I'll bet many of your female friends would be into it) since in class you'll switch partners anyway — which is all the better for your purposes, since it means you're leading women you just met, with guaranteed but implicit permission to take a traditional man's role.
posted by nicwolff at 2:37 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
But I've been taking swing dance (specifically, lindy hop) lessons with my girlfriend, and I have to say it's really refreshing to be in a situation where I'm supposed to plant a strong lead hand in the small of her back and control her; where if I don't make a series of snap decisions and forcefully, physically, communicate them to her, or if she resists in any way, it all falls apart.
So, find a swing dance class. You don't need to bring a partner (although I'll bet many of your female friends would be into it) since in class you'll switch partners anyway — which is all the better for your purposes, since it means you're leading women you just met, with guaranteed but implicit permission to take a traditional man's role.
posted by nicwolff at 2:37 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Tips for being confident: Learn to say, "I don't know". It is amazing how many men, especially those who would consider themselves manly, will supply an answer to anything asked of them.
A confident person is comfortable saying, "I don't know the answer to that, but I will look into it and get back to you" or simply, "No" or "I don't know" or "I have never heard of that".
Some of the answers here suggest learning how to fix things, but really, do not get carried away with this. A book like this could be helpful to keep at home and browse through for men and women.
The whole "men-should-know-tools-thing" is tired.
I worked in carpentry part-time during the school year and full time during the Summers from the time I was 12. Learned a lot. Framing, Drywall, Painting. The whole thing. I remember the first time I used a hammer for the whole day. My hands (I had switched back and forth to ease the pain) were covered with blisters the next day. When the men I was working with saw that I had showed up for work with Silvadene and gauze bandages and medical tape wrapped around my hands (Thanks sis!) they had a field day. "Awww, what's a matter, baby got a boo-boo? Want me to kiss it and make it all better?"
A "real" man would have taken me aside and said, "Yeah, that's how it is, your hands will develop calluses and then you won't get blisters. It gets easier. You should get some Aquaphor or something and put it on your hands at night."
Also, years later, when an ex and I painted her apartment, I was learning from her, as she had an art background and her painting skills were far superior to mine. It was great!
posted by mlis at 2:42 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
A confident person is comfortable saying, "I don't know the answer to that, but I will look into it and get back to you" or simply, "No" or "I don't know" or "I have never heard of that".
Some of the answers here suggest learning how to fix things, but really, do not get carried away with this. A book like this could be helpful to keep at home and browse through for men and women.
The whole "men-should-know-tools-thing" is tired.
I worked in carpentry part-time during the school year and full time during the Summers from the time I was 12. Learned a lot. Framing, Drywall, Painting. The whole thing. I remember the first time I used a hammer for the whole day. My hands (I had switched back and forth to ease the pain) were covered with blisters the next day. When the men I was working with saw that I had showed up for work with Silvadene and gauze bandages and medical tape wrapped around my hands (Thanks sis!) they had a field day. "Awww, what's a matter, baby got a boo-boo? Want me to kiss it and make it all better?"
A "real" man would have taken me aside and said, "Yeah, that's how it is, your hands will develop calluses and then you won't get blisters. It gets easier. You should get some Aquaphor or something and put it on your hands at night."
Also, years later, when an ex and I painted her apartment, I was learning from her, as she had an art background and her painting skills were far superior to mine. It was great!
posted by mlis at 2:42 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
The only kind of manliness I respect is the kind taught by Marcus Aurelius.
posted by Joe Beese at 2:45 PM on March 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe Beese at 2:45 PM on March 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
I have a couple of friends who obviously take "being a man" seriously. They worship Clint Eastwood, always make a big deal of how stoic they are, etc. We mock them mercilessly and they deserve it. It doesn't come across as rugged and manly, instead it just looks like they forgot Westerns are just movies. Don't worry about being a man, worry about being an adult.
posted by aspo at 2:50 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by aspo at 2:50 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
Chew tobacco.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:01 PM on March 29, 2009
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:01 PM on March 29, 2009
The area I'm particularly interested in is how strong, reasonable males resolve arguments and conflict in friendships and relationships. I have a tendency to over explain myself and to apologise.
Play sports.
Really. You're not going to get to where you want to be by drawing up a to-do list of behaviors, or by thinking yourself into being more "manly." You're going to get there by doing something on a regular basis that forces you to be decisive, confident, strong, reasonable, and unapologetic. Playing a competitive sport is one of the best ways to do this. Find a pick-up basketball game and join it. Here's why:
(1) You will have to spend a lot of time interacting with other men as a peer. Like it or not, this will require you to be more 'manly.' You will also have to learn how to have and to resolve conflicts reasonably - sometimes with unreasonable people.
(2) You will have to be decisive in small (do I drive left or right? do I hit the ball short or long?) and large (do I stick up for myself or back down?) ways. Regularly.
(3) You will have to learn how be confidently, unapologetically competitive, which means learning how to lose and win with grace and poise. One of the 'masculine' traits that I most admire is the ability to lose without throwing a tantrum or feeling bad about yourself, and to win without lording it over your opponent or feeling sorry for them. In either case, you learn to treat your peers as equals who do not need to be coddled or worried over. This is the opposite of the 'macho meathead' (who gloats) and the 'sissy' (who pouts)
(4) Ideally, you will become more comfortable projecting a strong physical presence, without overdoing it. And you will learn how to express yourself in a context where actions are more important than explanations.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter exactly what you do, just that you do something. Join a regular pickup basketball game (which is what I did to remedy almost exactly the same problem you are talking about), or a softball team. Play a one-on-one competitive sport like tennis or squash. Or take a martial arts class that includes regular sparring. Whatever you decide, get out there and move.
posted by googly at 3:07 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
Play sports.
Really. You're not going to get to where you want to be by drawing up a to-do list of behaviors, or by thinking yourself into being more "manly." You're going to get there by doing something on a regular basis that forces you to be decisive, confident, strong, reasonable, and unapologetic. Playing a competitive sport is one of the best ways to do this. Find a pick-up basketball game and join it. Here's why:
(1) You will have to spend a lot of time interacting with other men as a peer. Like it or not, this will require you to be more 'manly.' You will also have to learn how to have and to resolve conflicts reasonably - sometimes with unreasonable people.
(2) You will have to be decisive in small (do I drive left or right? do I hit the ball short or long?) and large (do I stick up for myself or back down?) ways. Regularly.
(3) You will have to learn how be confidently, unapologetically competitive, which means learning how to lose and win with grace and poise. One of the 'masculine' traits that I most admire is the ability to lose without throwing a tantrum or feeling bad about yourself, and to win without lording it over your opponent or feeling sorry for them. In either case, you learn to treat your peers as equals who do not need to be coddled or worried over. This is the opposite of the 'macho meathead' (who gloats) and the 'sissy' (who pouts)
(4) Ideally, you will become more comfortable projecting a strong physical presence, without overdoing it. And you will learn how to express yourself in a context where actions are more important than explanations.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter exactly what you do, just that you do something. Join a regular pickup basketball game (which is what I did to remedy almost exactly the same problem you are talking about), or a softball team. Play a one-on-one competitive sport like tennis or squash. Or take a martial arts class that includes regular sparring. Whatever you decide, get out there and move.
posted by googly at 3:07 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
This might be relevant: "Always shake hands in a way that recognizes your God-honest right to shake the other person's hand and recognizes the honor of being permitted to shake theirs."
Striking that balance in all human interactions, not just handshakes, is the mark of a person with character. In the past you have been doing all the recognizing the honor and not enough of the recognizing the right. Balance your deference with an assertive confidence. Confidence has nothing to do ignoring the opinions of others when they are right — it means not ignoring your own opinions when you're right. Characters we think of as admirable manly men perform acts of courtesy or service as signals of strength: they can afford to defer to others when it's right because they have resilient personalities. They recognize the right to shake hands and the honor of being able to.
In the past, you were trying to reject traditional gender roles just for the sake of rejecting traditional gender roles, whether it made sense or not. What your friends are now reacting positively to may not entirely be behavior that is masculine, per se, but behavior that expresses the idea that you are secure in your own skin, secure with having opinions of your own, and comfortable with acknowledging how your friends express themselves. It's right and good to share in your gal friends' enjoyment of their own femininity. That courtesy should be extended to humans for being humans, regardless of gender role. The remarkable thing about that relaxed but not overbearing confidence is that it can be masculine in a man and feminine in a woman. Conversely, constant indecision or apology, obnoxious cockiness, refusal to apologize when one has done harm, or unilateral imposition of one's opinions on others are unrighteous in everyone, man or woman.
More subtle gender cues do exist for both men and women and they can be valuable things to learn (I had to learn them by rote). But you're going to achieve a more natural effect if you look at men whom you admire as people, think carefully about what specifically it is they do that makes you respect them (this is harder than it sounds, but don't skimp on it, because you need to sort out for yourself which traits command respect), and then find a way to learn to make that trait your own. You want to learn how to resolve arguments in a way that shows strength? Pick up a book on negotiation skills. "Manly" in this context is a wishy-washy generality; you want to focus on specific characteristics that show strength. Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus-type books aren't totally without insight, but they do a lot of disservice by implying that men and women should inherently be mysteries to one another and that men and women always fall on opposite sides of the fence. (Not to mention that the "science" in the books is often embarrassingly bad.)
limited slip gets it right in arguing for confidence, but doesn't acknowledge that it is never the sole province of one type of human (and what's with the straw man directed at San Francisco? A grown man's arguments should speak for themselves without feeble and gratuitous half-insults). After all, in black-white relations, it used to be that dominance belonged to whites, while "decent Negros" were supposed to affect an apologetic deference; many people still instinctively see male-female relations in the same light. But the expression of self-respect via calm assertiveness is rightly everyone's property, so make it yours.
posted by jeeves at 3:09 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
Striking that balance in all human interactions, not just handshakes, is the mark of a person with character. In the past you have been doing all the recognizing the honor and not enough of the recognizing the right. Balance your deference with an assertive confidence. Confidence has nothing to do ignoring the opinions of others when they are right — it means not ignoring your own opinions when you're right. Characters we think of as admirable manly men perform acts of courtesy or service as signals of strength: they can afford to defer to others when it's right because they have resilient personalities. They recognize the right to shake hands and the honor of being able to.
In the past, you were trying to reject traditional gender roles just for the sake of rejecting traditional gender roles, whether it made sense or not. What your friends are now reacting positively to may not entirely be behavior that is masculine, per se, but behavior that expresses the idea that you are secure in your own skin, secure with having opinions of your own, and comfortable with acknowledging how your friends express themselves. It's right and good to share in your gal friends' enjoyment of their own femininity. That courtesy should be extended to humans for being humans, regardless of gender role. The remarkable thing about that relaxed but not overbearing confidence is that it can be masculine in a man and feminine in a woman. Conversely, constant indecision or apology, obnoxious cockiness, refusal to apologize when one has done harm, or unilateral imposition of one's opinions on others are unrighteous in everyone, man or woman.
More subtle gender cues do exist for both men and women and they can be valuable things to learn (I had to learn them by rote). But you're going to achieve a more natural effect if you look at men whom you admire as people, think carefully about what specifically it is they do that makes you respect them (this is harder than it sounds, but don't skimp on it, because you need to sort out for yourself which traits command respect), and then find a way to learn to make that trait your own. You want to learn how to resolve arguments in a way that shows strength? Pick up a book on negotiation skills. "Manly" in this context is a wishy-washy generality; you want to focus on specific characteristics that show strength. Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus-type books aren't totally without insight, but they do a lot of disservice by implying that men and women should inherently be mysteries to one another and that men and women always fall on opposite sides of the fence. (Not to mention that the "science" in the books is often embarrassingly bad.)
limited slip gets it right in arguing for confidence, but doesn't acknowledge that it is never the sole province of one type of human (and what's with the straw man directed at San Francisco? A grown man's arguments should speak for themselves without feeble and gratuitous half-insults). After all, in black-white relations, it used to be that dominance belonged to whites, while "decent Negros" were supposed to affect an apologetic deference; many people still instinctively see male-female relations in the same light. But the expression of self-respect via calm assertiveness is rightly everyone's property, so make it yours.
posted by jeeves at 3:09 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
Recently in the blue, male Alpha/beta behaviour explained in a way that turns a lot of what you normally hear on its head, yet makes a strange amount of sense. It gets a bit too self-referential in the subsequent pages, but the first page is a quick read with some good insights.
posted by -harlequin- at 3:20 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by -harlequin- at 3:20 PM on March 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
First off, you're indecisive. Work on that, it's not sexy in either gender.
As to being a man in Western society these days, it's combination of being quietly macho while understanding and knowing, in your bones, that women have power and are not your possession in any way, shape or form. So you respect their power as women and you respect them as people, you respect their strength. Because when that final moment comes, they're the ones pushing a bowling ball outta an opening the size of a golf ball, while you stand there and coach them 'bout breathing or some shit.
Here's a few general thoughts:
A man understands that that though men and women are equals, they are different as a sex and individual women are different even further. General rules may apply, but it's always better to know and understand the individual.
A man understands that though women are his equal, that always hasn't been the case and there's still a lot of shit they have to deal with, even in an the supposedly enlightened Western society. So while the stereotypical role of the male protector isn't needed these days, a man is never unwillingly but here's to step up and help a woman in trouble and call out other males if they starting to cross some lines. Note that I didn't use the word afraid in place of unwilling. It's ok to be scared, but there's still things you gotta do in you're in the situation. Fear is one thing, but letting that fear master you and dictate your actions is a no no.
A man understands that generally women are physically weaker than men and is willing to offer her help with physical things, if she would like it and doesn't start abusing it. You do this not because women are weak, but because you have a lot strength and as such you're willing to share your power with those who might need it, because it's the right damn thing to do.
A man knows bit of flattery and romance never hurts.
A man likes to eat and therefore knows how to cook. He doesn't expect a woman to do that for him, but does it appreciate it when she does.
A man shows his feelings and doesn't worry about shedding tears or being soft. A man is human and feels pains and doesn't give a
A man knows a bit about fashion and what looks good on women.
A man checks out women, smiles and flirts but never leers or tries to make her feel like a piece of meant. Unless it's sexy time and you're both into that.
A man knows how to laugh at himself and his sex at times, without being threatened.
A man knows himself and what he likes and doesn't like.
A man knows how to take care of himself and doesn't expect his mom or SO to do it, but realizes that in some areas they may enjoy it and see it as an expression of love and allows it.
The area I'm particularly interested in is how strong, reasonable males resolve arguments and conflict in friendships and relationships. I have a tendency to over explain myself and to apologise
You need to know what you, yes you, want. This doesn't mean you demand what you want or even always get what you want, but before you resolve a conflict, you need to understand what you want and how much you're willing to give on your position. A strong, reasonable male listens to his SO and takes her feelings into account until she starts crossing lines. What are those lines? YOU have to decide that for yourself, but the chief point is that no one runs your life, but you or your children (this goes for both sexes). If she wants you to skip hanging out with the guys to help her do something, that's fine, but if she always wants you to drop everything to attend to her needs or desires, forget that. "Yeah, I understand that you want to go do X, got it. But I haven't hung out with the guys in a while and I'd like to and I've been doing what you'd liked me to do a lot lately instead of what I'd like to do, so I'm gonna go hang out with the guys. I'll be back at 10, I love you, bye." That point with that example is that you're establishing boundaries and letting her know that yes, you're there for her, but you are also your own person and whether she accepts that or not, it's how things are. A reasonable SO will understand that. Again, this goes for both sexes.
Now, if the guys tease you about being under her thumb, roll with it while standing your ground. "Dude, that's my girl and I like her, so I'm help her out, so chill out. Just 'cause you got a girl you can't stand being around 'cept for the two minutes when you're having sex doesn't mean the rest of us have bad taste in picking up women." Again, the point here is to establish your own territory, that you're king of your castle and there are certain things you're not going buckle under about and if that bothers some people, we'll thats their problem. With men, it tends to be an ongoing test, in one way or another, of your territory. You don't have to anything bold or dramatic, just establish your boundaries.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:29 PM on March 29, 2009 [5 favorites]
As to being a man in Western society these days, it's combination of being quietly macho while understanding and knowing, in your bones, that women have power and are not your possession in any way, shape or form. So you respect their power as women and you respect them as people, you respect their strength. Because when that final moment comes, they're the ones pushing a bowling ball outta an opening the size of a golf ball, while you stand there and coach them 'bout breathing or some shit.
Here's a few general thoughts:
A man understands that that though men and women are equals, they are different as a sex and individual women are different even further. General rules may apply, but it's always better to know and understand the individual.
A man understands that though women are his equal, that always hasn't been the case and there's still a lot of shit they have to deal with, even in an the supposedly enlightened Western society. So while the stereotypical role of the male protector isn't needed these days, a man is never unwillingly but here's to step up and help a woman in trouble and call out other males if they starting to cross some lines. Note that I didn't use the word afraid in place of unwilling. It's ok to be scared, but there's still things you gotta do in you're in the situation. Fear is one thing, but letting that fear master you and dictate your actions is a no no.
A man understands that generally women are physically weaker than men and is willing to offer her help with physical things, if she would like it and doesn't start abusing it. You do this not because women are weak, but because you have a lot strength and as such you're willing to share your power with those who might need it, because it's the right damn thing to do.
A man knows bit of flattery and romance never hurts.
A man likes to eat and therefore knows how to cook. He doesn't expect a woman to do that for him, but does it appreciate it when she does.
A man shows his feelings and doesn't worry about shedding tears or being soft. A man is human and feels pains and doesn't give a
A man knows a bit about fashion and what looks good on women.
A man checks out women, smiles and flirts but never leers or tries to make her feel like a piece of meant. Unless it's sexy time and you're both into that.
A man knows how to laugh at himself and his sex at times, without being threatened.
A man knows himself and what he likes and doesn't like.
A man knows how to take care of himself and doesn't expect his mom or SO to do it, but realizes that in some areas they may enjoy it and see it as an expression of love and allows it.
The area I'm particularly interested in is how strong, reasonable males resolve arguments and conflict in friendships and relationships. I have a tendency to over explain myself and to apologise
You need to know what you, yes you, want. This doesn't mean you demand what you want or even always get what you want, but before you resolve a conflict, you need to understand what you want and how much you're willing to give on your position. A strong, reasonable male listens to his SO and takes her feelings into account until she starts crossing lines. What are those lines? YOU have to decide that for yourself, but the chief point is that no one runs your life, but you or your children (this goes for both sexes). If she wants you to skip hanging out with the guys to help her do something, that's fine, but if she always wants you to drop everything to attend to her needs or desires, forget that. "Yeah, I understand that you want to go do X, got it. But I haven't hung out with the guys in a while and I'd like to and I've been doing what you'd liked me to do a lot lately instead of what I'd like to do, so I'm gonna go hang out with the guys. I'll be back at 10, I love you, bye." That point with that example is that you're establishing boundaries and letting her know that yes, you're there for her, but you are also your own person and whether she accepts that or not, it's how things are. A reasonable SO will understand that. Again, this goes for both sexes.
Now, if the guys tease you about being under her thumb, roll with it while standing your ground. "Dude, that's my girl and I like her, so I'm help her out, so chill out. Just 'cause you got a girl you can't stand being around 'cept for the two minutes when you're having sex doesn't mean the rest of us have bad taste in picking up women." Again, the point here is to establish your own territory, that you're king of your castle and there are certain things you're not going buckle under about and if that bothers some people, we'll thats their problem. With men, it tends to be an ongoing test, in one way or another, of your territory. You don't have to anything bold or dramatic, just establish your boundaries.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:29 PM on March 29, 2009 [5 favorites]
I think it's pretty well covered above that some of the things you want to work on aren't "male" or "manly" per se, so remember to keep that in mind. A suggestion that may help with both areas of self-improvement, especially because you mention not having a role model, would be to look into the biographies or auto-biographies of guys you admire. Not that you can absorb everything by osmosis, but I'd think it would be helpful.
posted by sarahkeebs at 3:41 PM on March 29, 2009
posted by sarahkeebs at 3:41 PM on March 29, 2009
Brandon B is on the right track. Being a man is a real thing, and not an easy thing. You need to be able to stand your ground, stay cool, speak your mind, know what you like, take care of your family, and many other things.
There are also real skills I think you should know, like how to throw a punch, cook a meal, kiss a woman, wear a suit, fire a pistol and shoot craps, but not everyone will agree with me on that.
When you meet someone for the first time, look them in the eye and give them a firm handshake. This communicates more manliness and confidence than pretty much anything else you can do.
On reflection, you can be gay and be a real man. So I guess you could edit the above to say "kiss a man."
posted by charlesv at 3:50 PM on March 29, 2009
There are also real skills I think you should know, like how to throw a punch, cook a meal, kiss a woman, wear a suit, fire a pistol and shoot craps, but not everyone will agree with me on that.
When you meet someone for the first time, look them in the eye and give them a firm handshake. This communicates more manliness and confidence than pretty much anything else you can do.
On reflection, you can be gay and be a real man. So I guess you could edit the above to say "kiss a man."
posted by charlesv at 3:50 PM on March 29, 2009
One more thing: if you're a man, your word is your bond. You make a promise, you keep it.
posted by charlesv at 4:28 PM on March 29, 2009
posted by charlesv at 4:28 PM on March 29, 2009
There are many good ways to look at this, some of which are mentioned above. I believe some degree of physical ability to "protect" will do wonders for your confidence and Manliness. If you would like to reduce anxiety about being able to handle physical situations, I think studying an aggressive Fighting Art (ie:Muay Thai) could help you in many ways. The most important way is that it will allow you to be LESS Macho, posturing and "puffy" as you will not feel nearly as threatened. You could potentially exude TRUE confidence and not just be playing a role from a book or movie. Keep in mind, most people out here intimidating others, did not throw 1000 kicks and 1000 punches this week (and in this case, you will have). Macho types really respect you when they know you can likely handle them.
Stay Sweet!, Be Deadly!
Good Luck!
posted by Studiogeek at 5:13 PM on March 29, 2009
Stay Sweet!, Be Deadly!
Good Luck!
posted by Studiogeek at 5:13 PM on March 29, 2009
Be who you are. But be comfortable and confident that you are who you want to be. Putting on a "macho" show is not cool and will end badly. Be a grown up.
And give up the indecision thing. That's not a male/female thing, it's just childish.
posted by gjc at 5:19 PM on March 29, 2009
And give up the indecision thing. That's not a male/female thing, it's just childish.
posted by gjc at 5:19 PM on March 29, 2009
Be yourself. Be true to yourself. Keep your word. Look a person in the eye when talking with him and especially with her. To get respect give respect. Laugh at yourself. Cry.
posted by jara1953 at 5:20 PM on March 29, 2009
posted by jara1953 at 5:20 PM on March 29, 2009
Oh oh, more things: Be manly by not being cold and offering girls your sweatshirt or jacket. And don't complain about being tired when you go hiking (which also implies going hiking and doing outdoorsy things). And yes, firm handshakes are key. Even when meeting a girl in a friendly situation, there is nothing worse than a limp handshake from a guy. Also, calluses are manly.
posted by KateHasQuestions at 5:27 PM on March 29, 2009
posted by KateHasQuestions at 5:27 PM on March 29, 2009
My masculine hero is Richard Feynman, the physicist.
He wrote a (great) book called What do you care what other people think?. In context (and it's some pretty amazing context), this imparts an important and positive trait associated with traditional masculinity - not being overly concerned with what others think of you, but taking seriously what others think.
I also highly reccomend Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!.
Another good one is earnest and clearheaded Neil Armstrong. I can't reccomend any specific biographic material, but everything I've read about the guy impressed me.
The ancient greek philosophical school of stocism has greatly informed the modern western ideals of manliness. Here are some choice quotes.
posted by phrontist at 5:52 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
He wrote a (great) book called What do you care what other people think?. In context (and it's some pretty amazing context), this imparts an important and positive trait associated with traditional masculinity - not being overly concerned with what others think of you, but taking seriously what others think.
I also highly reccomend Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!.
Another good one is earnest and clearheaded Neil Armstrong. I can't reccomend any specific biographic material, but everything I've read about the guy impressed me.
The ancient greek philosophical school of stocism has greatly informed the modern western ideals of manliness. Here are some choice quotes.
posted by phrontist at 5:52 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
jeeves: limited slip gets it right in arguing for confidence, but doesn't acknowledge that it is never the sole province of one type of human (and what's with the straw man directed at San Francisco? A grown man's arguments should speak for themselves without feeble and gratuitous half-insults)
I have nothing against anthropologists, or San Francisco. In fact, I really like the city and I'm trying to make a move to SF for a job opportunity. With my comment I was just trying to make light of the fact that there are differing views on sex vs. 'gender'. And San Francisco is the city where these issues are most questioned and challenged. I agree, confidence is not the sole domain of men, but manhood was the subject, in my response I did not explicitly exclude all other types of humans.
posted by limited slip at 6:02 PM on March 29, 2009
I have nothing against anthropologists, or San Francisco. In fact, I really like the city and I'm trying to make a move to SF for a job opportunity. With my comment I was just trying to make light of the fact that there are differing views on sex vs. 'gender'. And San Francisco is the city where these issues are most questioned and challenged. I agree, confidence is not the sole domain of men, but manhood was the subject, in my response I did not explicitly exclude all other types of humans.
posted by limited slip at 6:02 PM on March 29, 2009
Like many other commenters, I don't know about changing your physical mannerisms or personality traits, basically changing who you are, for the sake of being "more manly." To me, being a real man is about being capable and knowledgeable. There's nothing LESS manly than helplessness, right? So my tip for you is to learn stuff. And I don't mean memorizing football stats, I mean useful know-how that will come in handy for you and others. Learning new skills will boost your confidence (always a manly quality) and make you a more well-rounded and interesting person without forcing you to alter your sense of self.
Have car knowledge. Know how to change fluids and for God's sake, make sure you know how to change a flat. Learn to drive stick. There's something so sexy about this interaction between man and machine. Watching my boyfriend operate a manual transmission always gets me going. Don't be an asshole stunna in traffic, but at least know how to pull off a burnout on command. :)
Have handyman fix-it knowledge. Like another commenter mentioned above, it's hot when a guy knows how to fix things around the house. That said, know when to call a pro when something is out of your depth. There's nothing sexy about bungling up someone's plumbing or electrocuting yourself.
Keep on top of world affairs. Learn the art of debating. It's so sexy when a guy can participate in potentially heat-y discussions about controversial topics calmly and articulately, and with insight and intelligence. Nothing is a bigger turn-off than a man who is like, "Gaza strip? Huh?" or a man who loses his temper in the midst of a disagreement like a toddler throwing a tantrum.
Obviously, the list goes on.
The area I'm particularly interested in is how strong, reasonable males resolve arguments and conflict in friendships and relationships. I have a tendency to over explain myself and to apologise.
Just calmly state your point of view ONCE, clearly and thoroughly. Have confidence that you've made your point, then stop. Overexplaining only demonstrates that you're insecure and unsure of your position, and makes you seem like you're arguing for the sake of arguing, not because you actually have something to say. It makes you look unreasonable and weasley and makes the other person feel like they're never going to get anywhere with you. Once you've said your piece, shut up and really listen to the other person's point of view.
There's nothing wrong with making apologies. In fact, conceding where you're wrong is a strong sign of reasonableness and confidence. It's the way you make those apologies that is off-putting. Apologize where it's due without resorting to passive-aggressive whining. Simply look into the other person's eyes and say, "I'm sorry, I was mistaken." If there are hurt feelings, just say, "I know your feelings are hurt, and I'm sorry for that. I never intended to make you feel x emotion." Keep it simple and sincere and you can't go wrong. Only apologize when you mean it. NEVER say, "I'm sorry, but..." - that's passive aggressive and annoying as hell. You're not fooling anyone or pacifying anyone with those pseudo-apologies, and in fact most people feel that their intelligence is being insulted when they hear a false apology.
posted by keep it under cover at 6:27 PM on March 29, 2009
Have car knowledge. Know how to change fluids and for God's sake, make sure you know how to change a flat. Learn to drive stick. There's something so sexy about this interaction between man and machine. Watching my boyfriend operate a manual transmission always gets me going. Don't be an asshole stunna in traffic, but at least know how to pull off a burnout on command. :)
Have handyman fix-it knowledge. Like another commenter mentioned above, it's hot when a guy knows how to fix things around the house. That said, know when to call a pro when something is out of your depth. There's nothing sexy about bungling up someone's plumbing or electrocuting yourself.
Keep on top of world affairs. Learn the art of debating. It's so sexy when a guy can participate in potentially heat-y discussions about controversial topics calmly and articulately, and with insight and intelligence. Nothing is a bigger turn-off than a man who is like, "Gaza strip? Huh?" or a man who loses his temper in the midst of a disagreement like a toddler throwing a tantrum.
Obviously, the list goes on.
The area I'm particularly interested in is how strong, reasonable males resolve arguments and conflict in friendships and relationships. I have a tendency to over explain myself and to apologise.
Just calmly state your point of view ONCE, clearly and thoroughly. Have confidence that you've made your point, then stop. Overexplaining only demonstrates that you're insecure and unsure of your position, and makes you seem like you're arguing for the sake of arguing, not because you actually have something to say. It makes you look unreasonable and weasley and makes the other person feel like they're never going to get anywhere with you. Once you've said your piece, shut up and really listen to the other person's point of view.
There's nothing wrong with making apologies. In fact, conceding where you're wrong is a strong sign of reasonableness and confidence. It's the way you make those apologies that is off-putting. Apologize where it's due without resorting to passive-aggressive whining. Simply look into the other person's eyes and say, "I'm sorry, I was mistaken." If there are hurt feelings, just say, "I know your feelings are hurt, and I'm sorry for that. I never intended to make you feel x emotion." Keep it simple and sincere and you can't go wrong. Only apologize when you mean it. NEVER say, "I'm sorry, but..." - that's passive aggressive and annoying as hell. You're not fooling anyone or pacifying anyone with those pseudo-apologies, and in fact most people feel that their intelligence is being insulted when they hear a false apology.
posted by keep it under cover at 6:27 PM on March 29, 2009
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!
On the other hand, Kipling, the author of these lines first published in America in book form in 1910, virtually collapsed when his only son was killed in 1915 during WWI, and then wrote:
If any question why we died
Tell them, because our fathers lied
Which is thought to have a more specific personal reference (likely to that very poem, in my opinion) as well as its obvious general indictment of the crass stupidity of almost all great-power leaderships during that conflict:
It is speculated that these words may reveal Kipling's feelings of guilt at his role in getting John a commission in the Irish Guards, despite his initially having been rejected by the army because of his poor eyesight, and his having exerted great influence to have his son accepted for officer training at the age of only 17.[39]
Don't do this to yourself, you'll just end up looking like a pretentious phony (at best). And I speak from broad and deep personal experience when I say you don't want the sort of woman who will be drawn to you primarily because she sees you as extremely masculine. Those relationships were nightmares.
posted by jamjam at 6:27 PM on March 29, 2009
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!
On the other hand, Kipling, the author of these lines first published in America in book form in 1910, virtually collapsed when his only son was killed in 1915 during WWI, and then wrote:
If any question why we died
Tell them, because our fathers lied
Which is thought to have a more specific personal reference (likely to that very poem, in my opinion) as well as its obvious general indictment of the crass stupidity of almost all great-power leaderships during that conflict:
It is speculated that these words may reveal Kipling's feelings of guilt at his role in getting John a commission in the Irish Guards, despite his initially having been rejected by the army because of his poor eyesight, and his having exerted great influence to have his son accepted for officer training at the age of only 17.[39]
Don't do this to yourself, you'll just end up looking like a pretentious phony (at best). And I speak from broad and deep personal experience when I say you don't want the sort of woman who will be drawn to you primarily because she sees you as extremely masculine. Those relationships were nightmares.
posted by jamjam at 6:27 PM on March 29, 2009
What an interesting question. When I think of the positive men in my life (father, husband, friends, bosses and co-workers) I don't see one or two traits that define them as men. Were their genders flipped they would still be amazing people, not "masculine" women. A lot of the suggestions above would frankly put me off and trigger my "over-compensating male"-dar (and the idea that men are the only ones that can fix things or that anyone except a boor sits open legged taking up too much personal space ... ) I wonder if, with your confusion over indecision, over-explanations and apologising as feminine traits, you are are without a strong sense of who you are and hoping to borrow an off-the-rack masculine sterotype as a stop-gap in actually creating your own identity that is true to you and your experiences. Since you are curious especially about over-explaining in resolving personal conflicts maybe you should spend me time listening to the other person and truly trying to see things from their point of view and less time focused on yourself and apologising for your behaviour. I hope you find yourself, it is a long, hard process but very much worth it
posted by saucysault at 8:12 PM on March 29, 2009
posted by saucysault at 8:12 PM on March 29, 2009
It sounds like you need to be more of a grownup first of all. Then maybe you want to work on the whole "behavioral cues that signal confident heterosexual masculinity" thing that others have mentioned.
Some good books about being a grownup are David Richo's How to Be an Adult and How to Be an Adult in Relationships. These are really helpful if you're trying to create a better model for asserting yourself and negotiating conflict in all types of relationships, including romantic partnerships.
As for the other thing, you can't go wrong watching movies with George Clooney and Clive Owen.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:03 PM on March 29, 2009
Some good books about being a grownup are David Richo's How to Be an Adult and How to Be an Adult in Relationships. These are really helpful if you're trying to create a better model for asserting yourself and negotiating conflict in all types of relationships, including romantic partnerships.
As for the other thing, you can't go wrong watching movies with George Clooney and Clive Owen.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:03 PM on March 29, 2009
Don't learn to "be" a man. You are a man. Accept your gender identity as part of the spectrum of masculinity and be proud.
I sometimes wish I was "less" feminine so I could have more cred as a Gender Warrior. Embrace yourself and work to let others accept you as who you are - equally as manly as Burping Guy.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:24 AM on March 30, 2009
I sometimes wish I was "less" feminine so I could have more cred as a Gender Warrior. Embrace yourself and work to let others accept you as who you are - equally as manly as Burping Guy.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:24 AM on March 30, 2009
If you want to act more like a man, spend some time with the type of men you admire and pay attention. I would also suggest reading Norah Vincent's Self-Made Man: One Woman's Journey into Manhood and Back. As a woman I learned a lot about how men interact with each other. You may not want to take on all traits considered masculine, but you need to be aware of what there is to choose form.
posted by Gor-ella at 8:08 AM on March 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Gor-ella at 8:08 AM on March 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Macho is not being a man. This is:
There is nothing, nothing at all in the world, to being a man except the constant state of being your own person. That is, living a life decided by yourself—not another woman, not another man, and certainly not society's idea of either.
Doing the right thing with integrity and security in your own decisions. Taking a strong stand for what you believe is right.
That's hot.
posted by Vaike at 9:51 AM on March 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
There is nothing, nothing at all in the world, to being a man except the constant state of being your own person. That is, living a life decided by yourself—not another woman, not another man, and certainly not society's idea of either.
Doing the right thing with integrity and security in your own decisions. Taking a strong stand for what you believe is right.
That's hot.
posted by Vaike at 9:51 AM on March 30, 2009 [2 favorites]
On the one hand, you can't learn to be a man from reading books about how to be a man. As a corollary, you shouldn't believe that fictional portrayals of real men are real men.
On the other hand, fictional depictions of men might give you some ideas about what a man should look like.
You should put yourself in situations which will allow you to develop the traits you desire. This is not done in the action-vacuum of the armchair with a book or a laptop. Get out and exercise, date, race, hike, pole-vault, deadlift, build a shed, whatever. You are not what you think, you are what you do.
When I had a bit of a masculinity crisis a couple of years ago, I took up weightlifting. I decided I didn't want to be the smallest, weakest guy around. Size and strength are only one part of masculinity, but sticking with the weightlifting has taught me lots of other things. Progression, commitment, etc. I could have read 500 Hemingway novels, Moby Dick, every one of those abominable Mars/Venus books and every self-help book and not been an iota more of a man. I'm sure I'd come off as a real wanker at parties, though.
That's the last thing; don't put on silly affectations that you think make you more manly. Humans are expert at smelling fraud.
posted by Barry B. Palindromer at 11:15 AM on March 30, 2009
On the other hand, fictional depictions of men might give you some ideas about what a man should look like.
You should put yourself in situations which will allow you to develop the traits you desire. This is not done in the action-vacuum of the armchair with a book or a laptop. Get out and exercise, date, race, hike, pole-vault, deadlift, build a shed, whatever. You are not what you think, you are what you do.
When I had a bit of a masculinity crisis a couple of years ago, I took up weightlifting. I decided I didn't want to be the smallest, weakest guy around. Size and strength are only one part of masculinity, but sticking with the weightlifting has taught me lots of other things. Progression, commitment, etc. I could have read 500 Hemingway novels, Moby Dick, every one of those abominable Mars/Venus books and every self-help book and not been an iota more of a man. I'm sure I'd come off as a real wanker at parties, though.
That's the last thing; don't put on silly affectations that you think make you more manly. Humans are expert at smelling fraud.
posted by Barry B. Palindromer at 11:15 AM on March 30, 2009
I'm not sure how generally applicable this may be, but I went through a phase of thinking about what it meant to be a "man", and one of the books that I thought was extremely interesting was Robert Bly's "Iron John". It's on Google Books if you want a glance. It may or not appeal to you, depending on how concrete of a thinker you are and how much you want scientific facts, but I found it to be immeasurably valuable.
I know the book has it's detractors, but I honestly don't understand what they find so offensive about it.
posted by '' at 4:52 PM on March 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
I know the book has it's detractors, but I honestly don't understand what they find so offensive about it.
posted by '' at 4:52 PM on March 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by RajahKing at 12:15 PM on March 29, 2009 [2 favorites]