Unidentified Dutch ships in a pen-and-wash drawing

February 25, 2009 10:43 AM

Unidentified Dutch pen-and-ink drawing: anyone familiar with this type of ship?

Here is a link to the drawing in question.

I think those are 17th century ships. Previous guess is 1630. It's in iron gall ink and wash with some wonderful details; from the arrangement of the sails I thought they might be Bootschips or East Indiamen. Any thoughts would be appreciated as I'm not an expert on marine paintings!

posted by RedReplicant to society & culture (10 comments total)

It's a battle, so probably not merchantmen? The boyfriend thinks they're frigates in the Anglo-Dutch wars.
posted by Lebannen at 11:14 AM on February 25

Is this version cropped at all? If we could see the ensign on the ship on the left it might be easier to get an idea of nationality.
posted by Lebannen at 11:30 AM on February 25

No, sadly it isn't cropped, it just has a real dearth of information in terms of flags and insignias.
posted by RedReplicant at 11:55 AM on February 25

These look a lot like brigs to me.

Clearly at battle. Note the smoke and the gunports. The ship in the distance looks bigger - a frigate, man of war, or ship of the line.

Note the very tip of a ship's "poopdeck" (deck at the aft/back end of ship), and a mast protruding from the water at lower left. The men in the water are being rescued.

Do you have the actual drawing!?
posted by ecorrocio at 2:29 PM on February 25

The ships look very much like a battle, with a skinking ship in the foreground. As for the types of ship, I'm not sure, they look an awful lot like the ships in this image from this wikipedia page. And according to that it would be galleons. But IANA 17th century ship expert.
posted by bjrn at 3:36 PM on February 25

I think those are 17th century ships. Previous guess is 1630. It's in iron gall ink and wash with some wonderful details; from the arrangement of the sails I thought they might be Bootschips or East Indiamen.

East Indiamen were built during the late 18th and early 19th century. I'm thinking some of the boats have gun ports and there's a sunken one, so brig is probably correct in those instances, since there seems to be a battle going on. Fluyts were purely cargo ships, and would not have gun ports. Possibly the lumpy looking one second from the left is a fluyt or flyboat.

If this is a sketch of a battle, they wouldn't all be Dutch ships, would they?
posted by oneirodynia at 4:16 PM on February 25

Yes, I do have the actual drawing, but I have no idea where it originated. It was donated to our small museum by a gentleman who is now deceased and kept his collection rather poorly.

Oneirodynia is right, they are certainly in a battle, therefore a couple of the ships are probably not Dutch. The painting itself, however, is identified in the record as Dutch ("anonymous Dutch 17th C")
posted by RedReplicant at 7:51 PM on February 25

Sailing ship classification is not an exact science. 17th century warships such as these had many features of galleons such as the high stern and the sailplan of three masts with the lateen mizzen. These ships could probably be classified as small, early frigates, and that's what they might have been called. However they don't really resemble the classical sailing frigate of 18th and 19th century. Galleon and frigate would both be somewhat correct. The most informative term might actually be 17th century warship, since the usual ship terms changed quite a bit from the 15th to the 19th century.

The one on the left has something on the order of 20 guns while the second one from the right might even have 2 gundecks, which would make it a sort of early ship of the line.

These look a lot like brigs to me.

Definitely not brigs, brigs only had two masts, these ships are clearly ship-rigged.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert of any kind of naval history, just a somewhat enthusiastic dilettante.
posted by Authorized User at 12:16 AM on February 26

For comparison: A model of a 17th century dutch-built frigate The hull shape is very similar, the sail plan differs in having topgallants, while the ship in the drawing only has courses and topsails. This, I think, would place it earlier in the 17th century or simply mean it was a smaller ship.
posted by Authorized User at 8:04 AM on February 26

Authorized User: Definitely not brigs, brigs only had two masts, these ships are clearly ship-rigged.

Ay! My bad. You are right. Can't count I guess. 1-2-2...
posted by ecorrocio at 7:32 PM on February 26