I've been a wayward jerk; what now?
January 26, 2009 3:28 PM Subscribe
I'm in a pickle, and I need to save my relationship with this irreplaceable woman.
Sorry to post the longest post ever.
My partner and I got together in October of 2005. I was married but had been separated (by states) for years. We had a madly passionate courtship during which we discovered she was pregnant despite it being impossible for her to conceive. She wanted to have the baby with or without me and I was absolutely thrilled and honored to be pregnant with her. We came clean with all of our past sexual contacts and we were very open to each other. In saying this I should point out that her version of honesty is complete and detailed confessionals that were very uncomfortable for me to hear. I disclosed my past physical relationships. Our son is two.
I was in a touring band on a major label for years and until recently have had pretty consistent online contact from women related to that. During the dark year before I met my partner, I was staying "faithful" to my wife (who lived four states away) by staying at home. Bored and working online, I was seduced by the attention of these folks (I hadn't really attended to them until probably around 2003 when the separations occurred). Most were temporary flirtations, but there was one woman from 2000 miles away who contacted me appropriately for a few years on and off. We chatted and occasionally phoned about our concurrent divorce /separations and other things. Contact became more frequent as time went on, and by the time I met my now-partner, this woman and I were in contact several times a week for 15 minutes to an hour exchanging links and such. Mostly during working hours. But she would send me phonecamera pictures of her real life and kids and such, which should have been a big cue for me. I still felt that it was pretty innocuous. She and her sister (with whom I had done record industry work in real life) sent us a present for my boys birth.
Still, I didn't really mention how frequently we were in contact to my partner. She would have been cool with it, but I don't know why I didn't. I knew that there was something up, but I knew that I wasn't susceptible to an affair. But still, I didn't tell her, which means that I knew something on some level was going on.
My partner didn't move in until her last month of her pregnancy. During that time the other woman and I became flirtatious in a way that I somehow justified. I have a history of pretty aggressive flirting online from the dark time before I met my partner, but I knew that I wasn't susceptible to that, either.
The flirtation got more overt, and I asked for it to stop, even though I had frequently initiated it. Sex acts were not discussed, and no online sex or whatever happened. She was actually pretty prude and proper. But as I became less available with the birth of the baby and whatnot, she began sending me cameraphone pictures that included herself to my email. I did not really discourage these, but made insincere discouraging comments to that end, while still commenting positively.
Within a month, the photos were provocative and the flirting increased until about the baby's three month mark. She was respectful of my request. Then, on the longest business trip in history, my partner, newborn, and I shared a hotel room for almost a month. I was cooped up in the hotel room, bored stiff. The flirting and pictures came back. One picture showed a naked breast barely visible in the dark, another showed her rear end in underwear. Most other pictures were pets, etc. In a blowout about the stress of my trip, I decided I had to go home and decided to hitchhike for the 10 hour trip. OW bought me an Amtrak ticket which really weirded me out, too. I accused her of being in love with me despite her protestations to the contrary, and she admitted it. The pictures and flirting continued for about two or three more months before I finally told her that I would cease contact if it kept up. Previous to this I was a participant, and admit that I wasn't exactly harsh about the photos and attention.
A few months later, she was coming to the area for job interviews. She had a boyfriend here, but I panicked. I told her I was uncomfortable with what we had done and that I would not spend time with her, particularly alone, if she moved here. I told her that if she befriended my partner and they could get along that I would be able to tell my partner that we had flirted but that she was my friend's sister and everything would be cool. I think it would have been.
But.... she was so jealous of my partner that she couldn't look her in the eye, and my partner suspected something was up which I denied, hoping to give my friend a chance. This was the second huge mistake.
It became a game of balancing the OW attention needs while deceiving my partner because if I didn't attend to the OW, she became very noisy. Anyhow, like Watergate, the cover-up became a massive undertaking when the crime probably would have been tolerated by her given her tolerance of the truth.
She finally asked to see my email communication with the woman, and I showed her, pictures and all. Most of it was gone, but much of the inappropriate content was there (there was never much). But, in another moment of self-sabotage, I had encouraged OW to use an obsolete email address from my history after a time. My partner saw that, got into that account, and found some more (modest) pictures.
She fell apart. I've been horribly ashamed and became almost paralyzed with depression. We were "done." I think this would have been bad but salvageable, but in her perseverative desire to find out every possible detail, she went through a backup drive that had chat transcripts from my drunken, lost year. What she found didn't surprise me, but I didn't remember some pretty tawdry details: there were a bunch of really lewd and tawdry chats with women, most of which I didn't remember being anywhere near that gross. It was really freaky and humiliating. Again, I was drinking a lot and taking a prescription drug that severely affects memory. I might also add that my partner had a lost year around that time and her behavior was also pretty questionable. This isn't a monster and a nun. I will say that I knew that I had done some pretty gross things during that time, but I was shocked at how graphic my language was; I've never talked like that with my partner (or, for that matter, the OW). This also revealed that some of my casual relationships had some pretty lewd moments. That has contributed significantly to the shame, and has really tarnished what my partner believed our relationship and the birth of our baby to be (which I admittedly did). I'm so freaked out that I can't talk to anyone; I am horrified at my past coming back to haunt my new relationship, embarrassed about my behavior, and dealing with more trust issues because of that (i.e., "Why didn't you mention being lewd with all these women that i have to see around (probably three or four; none physical). It is an awkward situation.
Understandably, without data, my partner assumes that this is the kind of relationship I had with OW. Incredibly raunchy Internet chat, while she was birthing and nursing a newborn, and then for several months later. She thinks I have serious sexual addiction issues and so forth. OW is very Southern and proper-ish, and the flirting was naive compared to those transcripts exhumed by my partner. I know it doesn't particularly matter, but I'm just sayin'. And even though a physical affair would have been very easy with the OW I didn't put myself in the position of being alone with her, alienated her, and eventually just ended up arguing all the time with her to keep her away from us. Again: Watergate. Now that it has been exposed, I'm actually looking forward to no contact.
But my relationship has been trashed, and this "seedy" history of my online behavior during a certain period of time before we met has been unearthed, which terrifies her that I will be a recidivist. It won't be an issue, and I am insanely in love. I blew it, and I take full responsibility, and realize it is the same as a traditional affair. So what the heck do I do? We are both losing weight quickly, and there are other relationship difficulties that happened to be going on that exacerbate any of her reactions.
What do I do? I almost want to cop to what she envisions because she'd actually believe that. I just don't know what to do about the affair. The OW will be gone with one phone call (she will be persistent, but it just doesn't matter now, because midnight text tantrums aren't going to need attention with the cat out of the bag). What else do I do. This looks like it is the end, and I'm devastated. It has been about 18 months since the affair ended, and it was inappropriate for 5-6 months, although I minimized her for months before and then for three years until the bust.
Advice? I have a pretty firm grip on the realities and wouldn't minimize this (e.g., "But baby, it was only pictures"). I kind of thought that at first until I realized that her reaction was the same as had it been physical, and I accept that as legitimate and reasonable.
Any advice would be cherished. I cannot lose this woman. I'm willing to let her keylog my computer, chip me, etc. I don't have any fears of recidivism, but she is certain.
Thanks. And I'm sorry about what jerks like us do to you guys.
Sorry to post the longest post ever.
My partner and I got together in October of 2005. I was married but had been separated (by states) for years. We had a madly passionate courtship during which we discovered she was pregnant despite it being impossible for her to conceive. She wanted to have the baby with or without me and I was absolutely thrilled and honored to be pregnant with her. We came clean with all of our past sexual contacts and we were very open to each other. In saying this I should point out that her version of honesty is complete and detailed confessionals that were very uncomfortable for me to hear. I disclosed my past physical relationships. Our son is two.
I was in a touring band on a major label for years and until recently have had pretty consistent online contact from women related to that. During the dark year before I met my partner, I was staying "faithful" to my wife (who lived four states away) by staying at home. Bored and working online, I was seduced by the attention of these folks (I hadn't really attended to them until probably around 2003 when the separations occurred). Most were temporary flirtations, but there was one woman from 2000 miles away who contacted me appropriately for a few years on and off. We chatted and occasionally phoned about our concurrent divorce /separations and other things. Contact became more frequent as time went on, and by the time I met my now-partner, this woman and I were in contact several times a week for 15 minutes to an hour exchanging links and such. Mostly during working hours. But she would send me phonecamera pictures of her real life and kids and such, which should have been a big cue for me. I still felt that it was pretty innocuous. She and her sister (with whom I had done record industry work in real life) sent us a present for my boys birth.
Still, I didn't really mention how frequently we were in contact to my partner. She would have been cool with it, but I don't know why I didn't. I knew that there was something up, but I knew that I wasn't susceptible to an affair. But still, I didn't tell her, which means that I knew something on some level was going on.
My partner didn't move in until her last month of her pregnancy. During that time the other woman and I became flirtatious in a way that I somehow justified. I have a history of pretty aggressive flirting online from the dark time before I met my partner, but I knew that I wasn't susceptible to that, either.
The flirtation got more overt, and I asked for it to stop, even though I had frequently initiated it. Sex acts were not discussed, and no online sex or whatever happened. She was actually pretty prude and proper. But as I became less available with the birth of the baby and whatnot, she began sending me cameraphone pictures that included herself to my email. I did not really discourage these, but made insincere discouraging comments to that end, while still commenting positively.
Within a month, the photos were provocative and the flirting increased until about the baby's three month mark. She was respectful of my request. Then, on the longest business trip in history, my partner, newborn, and I shared a hotel room for almost a month. I was cooped up in the hotel room, bored stiff. The flirting and pictures came back. One picture showed a naked breast barely visible in the dark, another showed her rear end in underwear. Most other pictures were pets, etc. In a blowout about the stress of my trip, I decided I had to go home and decided to hitchhike for the 10 hour trip. OW bought me an Amtrak ticket which really weirded me out, too. I accused her of being in love with me despite her protestations to the contrary, and she admitted it. The pictures and flirting continued for about two or three more months before I finally told her that I would cease contact if it kept up. Previous to this I was a participant, and admit that I wasn't exactly harsh about the photos and attention.
A few months later, she was coming to the area for job interviews. She had a boyfriend here, but I panicked. I told her I was uncomfortable with what we had done and that I would not spend time with her, particularly alone, if she moved here. I told her that if she befriended my partner and they could get along that I would be able to tell my partner that we had flirted but that she was my friend's sister and everything would be cool. I think it would have been.
But.... she was so jealous of my partner that she couldn't look her in the eye, and my partner suspected something was up which I denied, hoping to give my friend a chance. This was the second huge mistake.
It became a game of balancing the OW attention needs while deceiving my partner because if I didn't attend to the OW, she became very noisy. Anyhow, like Watergate, the cover-up became a massive undertaking when the crime probably would have been tolerated by her given her tolerance of the truth.
She finally asked to see my email communication with the woman, and I showed her, pictures and all. Most of it was gone, but much of the inappropriate content was there (there was never much). But, in another moment of self-sabotage, I had encouraged OW to use an obsolete email address from my history after a time. My partner saw that, got into that account, and found some more (modest) pictures.
She fell apart. I've been horribly ashamed and became almost paralyzed with depression. We were "done." I think this would have been bad but salvageable, but in her perseverative desire to find out every possible detail, she went through a backup drive that had chat transcripts from my drunken, lost year. What she found didn't surprise me, but I didn't remember some pretty tawdry details: there were a bunch of really lewd and tawdry chats with women, most of which I didn't remember being anywhere near that gross. It was really freaky and humiliating. Again, I was drinking a lot and taking a prescription drug that severely affects memory. I might also add that my partner had a lost year around that time and her behavior was also pretty questionable. This isn't a monster and a nun. I will say that I knew that I had done some pretty gross things during that time, but I was shocked at how graphic my language was; I've never talked like that with my partner (or, for that matter, the OW). This also revealed that some of my casual relationships had some pretty lewd moments. That has contributed significantly to the shame, and has really tarnished what my partner believed our relationship and the birth of our baby to be (which I admittedly did). I'm so freaked out that I can't talk to anyone; I am horrified at my past coming back to haunt my new relationship, embarrassed about my behavior, and dealing with more trust issues because of that (i.e., "Why didn't you mention being lewd with all these women that i have to see around (probably three or four; none physical). It is an awkward situation.
Understandably, without data, my partner assumes that this is the kind of relationship I had with OW. Incredibly raunchy Internet chat, while she was birthing and nursing a newborn, and then for several months later. She thinks I have serious sexual addiction issues and so forth. OW is very Southern and proper-ish, and the flirting was naive compared to those transcripts exhumed by my partner. I know it doesn't particularly matter, but I'm just sayin'. And even though a physical affair would have been very easy with the OW I didn't put myself in the position of being alone with her, alienated her, and eventually just ended up arguing all the time with her to keep her away from us. Again: Watergate. Now that it has been exposed, I'm actually looking forward to no contact.
But my relationship has been trashed, and this "seedy" history of my online behavior during a certain period of time before we met has been unearthed, which terrifies her that I will be a recidivist. It won't be an issue, and I am insanely in love. I blew it, and I take full responsibility, and realize it is the same as a traditional affair. So what the heck do I do? We are both losing weight quickly, and there are other relationship difficulties that happened to be going on that exacerbate any of her reactions.
What do I do? I almost want to cop to what she envisions because she'd actually believe that. I just don't know what to do about the affair. The OW will be gone with one phone call (she will be persistent, but it just doesn't matter now, because midnight text tantrums aren't going to need attention with the cat out of the bag). What else do I do. This looks like it is the end, and I'm devastated. It has been about 18 months since the affair ended, and it was inappropriate for 5-6 months, although I minimized her for months before and then for three years until the bust.
Advice? I have a pretty firm grip on the realities and wouldn't minimize this (e.g., "But baby, it was only pictures"). I kind of thought that at first until I realized that her reaction was the same as had it been physical, and I accept that as legitimate and reasonable.
Any advice would be cherished. I cannot lose this woman. I'm willing to let her keylog my computer, chip me, etc. I don't have any fears of recidivism, but she is certain.
Thanks. And I'm sorry about what jerks like us do to you guys.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Looks like this was posted in bad faith by someone other than the purported author. That's really, really not okay. -- cortex
Wow, can someone summarize this for me? I got lost in there somewhere.
Has a wife, separated. Has no impact on the story?
Met a girl, got her pregnant
Somewhere in there was ALSO flirting with people online?
Online girl sends pictures often
Online girl comes to town and somehow magically meets the preggers girl.
Preggers girl finds out all this flirting/cybersex you were doing
Did I get that right?
Sounds like you ruined a perfectly healthy relationship for no reason. Either you subconsciously wanted to sabotage it, or you do have some issues with sex (I wouldn't use the term "Addiction").
Tell the preggers girl "hey, I fucked up bad" and then go find a relationship therapist. If you have sexual issues, you need to figure them out.
posted by phrakture at 3:48 PM on January 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
Has a wife, separated. Has no impact on the story?
Met a girl, got her pregnant
Somewhere in there was ALSO flirting with people online?
Online girl sends pictures often
Online girl comes to town and somehow magically meets the preggers girl.
Preggers girl finds out all this flirting/cybersex you were doing
Did I get that right?
Sounds like you ruined a perfectly healthy relationship for no reason. Either you subconsciously wanted to sabotage it, or you do have some issues with sex (I wouldn't use the term "Addiction").
Tell the preggers girl "hey, I fucked up bad" and then go find a relationship therapist. If you have sexual issues, you need to figure them out.
posted by phrakture at 3:48 PM on January 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
Hm. I can only tell you what I'd want if I found myself in the same situation with my husband.
First, I'd want him to call the other woman and tell her that they cannot be in contact anymore. I would want to listen to this conversation.
Second, I'd want a lot of time and space to process this new information. I might go to my mother's house.
Third, I'd expect him to honestly and openly answer ANY question I had.
Fourth, I'd pursue couples counseling.
I don't know how long ago this happened ("this" being her discovery of your past, um, conversations), but I can imagine needing a month or two to process this information. It's not relevant that it's not a physical affair; what I'd be dealing with is the massive discrepancy between who I thought my husband was and who his actions say he is. It wasn't a shock when my ex cheated on me (physically) because I should have seen it coming a mile away. It'd be a huge shock if my husband even flirted with a woman because in four years I don't seriously believe he's done that. Anyway, I hope that gives you some insight into her reaction.
posted by desjardins at 3:53 PM on January 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
First, I'd want him to call the other woman and tell her that they cannot be in contact anymore. I would want to listen to this conversation.
Second, I'd want a lot of time and space to process this new information. I might go to my mother's house.
Third, I'd expect him to honestly and openly answer ANY question I had.
Fourth, I'd pursue couples counseling.
I don't know how long ago this happened ("this" being her discovery of your past, um, conversations), but I can imagine needing a month or two to process this information. It's not relevant that it's not a physical affair; what I'd be dealing with is the massive discrepancy between who I thought my husband was and who his actions say he is. It wasn't a shock when my ex cheated on me (physically) because I should have seen it coming a mile away. It'd be a huge shock if my husband even flirted with a woman because in four years I don't seriously believe he's done that. Anyway, I hope that gives you some insight into her reaction.
posted by desjardins at 3:53 PM on January 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
Very confusing. Next time at least use pseudonyms and a better timeline. But if your (ex-?)partner will consider it, it sounds like counseling would be a good idea. I think it's worth it to try and see if you can salvage something for your child.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 3:54 PM on January 26, 2009
posted by otherwordlyglow at 3:54 PM on January 26, 2009
If I were you, I would state what you said here, basically just how you said it. I would say that I would do anything to keep this relationship together. Then, I would ask her what she needed me to do to make that happen. And finally, I would do what she said and take it from there.
If she has trouble stating what it is she needs to feel ok about the relationship, I would ask if she would consider couple's counseling for a period to see if someone outside the relationship can help put us on the path to resolution.
posted by milarepa at 3:55 PM on January 26, 2009
If she has trouble stating what it is she needs to feel ok about the relationship, I would ask if she would consider couple's counseling for a period to see if someone outside the relationship can help put us on the path to resolution.
posted by milarepa at 3:55 PM on January 26, 2009
Duuuuuuuuuude. You sound pathetic ("I was absolutely thrilled and honored to be pregnant with her", "I cannot lose this woman. I'm willing to let her keylog my computer, chip me, etc.").
You'll never be happy with this girl. I mean, you're almost ready to let her walk you on a leash.
I can imagine how you feel, and it must suck. I'm just being real. Seriously, the best advice I can give you is to work on your self-esteem issues. Good luck.
posted by mpls2 at 3:59 PM on January 26, 2009 [3 favorites]
You'll never be happy with this girl. I mean, you're almost ready to let her walk you on a leash.
I can imagine how you feel, and it must suck. I'm just being real. Seriously, the best advice I can give you is to work on your self-esteem issues. Good luck.
posted by mpls2 at 3:59 PM on January 26, 2009 [3 favorites]
Okay, I'm actually going to take your side.
First of all, I don't think you deserve to be punished for jack shit that you did when you didn't even know your girlfriend. What the fuck, man? That would be like me saying to my husband "oh man, you had sex with some ugly girl, that means you're into ugly chicks, that's why you are into me, oh god, I'm ugly." Totally not fair.
But she doesn't know that because you've been having this vague, frankly completely harmless (except to you) flirtation with this other lady who's been in touch with you for a long time. You were spineless about it, and she was obnoxious about it, and at the end of the day, you should have been "hey, crazy lady, stop emailing me, I'm in a relationship and your emails make me uncomfortable now" and bcc'ed your current girlfriend, all while coming clean about everything that happened, which is really nothing too bad.
Regardless, the problem is that you have apologized, assured your partner that it's not like that and that you only love her and now she is crazy from crazyville, blowing shit way out of proportion, hacking into your other email addresses and demanding penance for behavior prior to your existence together.
I don't know, man. This is kind of harsh, but a) you need to sack up and be honest and b) realize that there is no way on earth that your relationship is going to work if you let her keylog your shit and read every email you have. That is major dysfunction and will lead to resentment. That's not trust, man, that's a prison warden.
I'd say lay it on the line, make your feelings clear, and tell her that you're willing to work with her within reason but she needs to stop punishing you for things you did before she was in the picture, and that you guys can go to counseling together. This just seems ridiculously, melodramatically overblown to me, with you being the prostrate sinner, and your girlfriend being the inquisitor. How about you guys just be grownups and talk like grownups instead?
posted by mckenney at 4:00 PM on January 26, 2009 [9 favorites]
First of all, I don't think you deserve to be punished for jack shit that you did when you didn't even know your girlfriend. What the fuck, man? That would be like me saying to my husband "oh man, you had sex with some ugly girl, that means you're into ugly chicks, that's why you are into me, oh god, I'm ugly." Totally not fair.
But she doesn't know that because you've been having this vague, frankly completely harmless (except to you) flirtation with this other lady who's been in touch with you for a long time. You were spineless about it, and she was obnoxious about it, and at the end of the day, you should have been "hey, crazy lady, stop emailing me, I'm in a relationship and your emails make me uncomfortable now" and bcc'ed your current girlfriend, all while coming clean about everything that happened, which is really nothing too bad.
Regardless, the problem is that you have apologized, assured your partner that it's not like that and that you only love her and now she is crazy from crazyville, blowing shit way out of proportion, hacking into your other email addresses and demanding penance for behavior prior to your existence together.
I don't know, man. This is kind of harsh, but a) you need to sack up and be honest and b) realize that there is no way on earth that your relationship is going to work if you let her keylog your shit and read every email you have. That is major dysfunction and will lead to resentment. That's not trust, man, that's a prison warden.
I'd say lay it on the line, make your feelings clear, and tell her that you're willing to work with her within reason but she needs to stop punishing you for things you did before she was in the picture, and that you guys can go to counseling together. This just seems ridiculously, melodramatically overblown to me, with you being the prostrate sinner, and your girlfriend being the inquisitor. How about you guys just be grownups and talk like grownups instead?
posted by mckenney at 4:00 PM on January 26, 2009 [9 favorites]
You can lose her, and you probably have.
Maybe next time either keep your virtual dick in your pants or be open about what you're like--you like flirting to the point of cheating. And you like cheating too I guess since you impregnated one woman while married to another. You make up elaborate justifications and multiple lies upon lies to make yourself feel better about what you're doing, even as you greedily roll around in the self-loathing that fuels the whole merry-go-round.
That said, stop kicking yourself about it uselessly. Be 100% honest with yourself, then extend that to everyone else. Don't waste your time pretending to be the straight laced father figure you want to be, and be happy with who you are. Better luck next time.
If you want to promise her something try: 1. counseling 2. never clearing the history on your comp + give her email passwords 3. throw yourself in your kid. Do kid stuff all day and night so she sees that your a good dad and father despite your obvious flaws. 4. Give her all the space and time she needs no matter what to figure out what to do with your promises and for fucks sake Just Say No to nude texts battles.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:08 PM on January 26, 2009 [8 favorites]
Maybe next time either keep your virtual dick in your pants or be open about what you're like--you like flirting to the point of cheating. And you like cheating too I guess since you impregnated one woman while married to another. You make up elaborate justifications and multiple lies upon lies to make yourself feel better about what you're doing, even as you greedily roll around in the self-loathing that fuels the whole merry-go-round.
That said, stop kicking yourself about it uselessly. Be 100% honest with yourself, then extend that to everyone else. Don't waste your time pretending to be the straight laced father figure you want to be, and be happy with who you are. Better luck next time.
If you want to promise her something try: 1. counseling 2. never clearing the history on your comp + give her email passwords 3. throw yourself in your kid. Do kid stuff all day and night so she sees that your a good dad and father despite your obvious flaws. 4. Give her all the space and time she needs no matter what to figure out what to do with your promises and for fucks sake Just Say No to nude texts battles.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:08 PM on January 26, 2009 [8 favorites]
This is kind of harsh, but a) you need to sack up and be honest and b) realize that there is no way on earth that your relationship is going to work if you let her keylog your shit and read every email you have.
I agree with this. It's up to you to be transparent, but it's up to her to trust you again, and you shouldn't make yourself miserable trying to get her to trust you. Either she will or she won't, and that's not your decision. If the trust can't be restored, it's better to go your separate ways because both of you will feel like you're in a living hell.
posted by desjardins at 4:13 PM on January 26, 2009
I agree with this. It's up to you to be transparent, but it's up to her to trust you again, and you shouldn't make yourself miserable trying to get her to trust you. Either she will or she won't, and that's not your decision. If the trust can't be restored, it's better to go your separate ways because both of you will feel like you're in a living hell.
posted by desjardins at 4:13 PM on January 26, 2009
You never banged this other woman, right? Basically, your crime here is lying to your partner about virtual flirting with other women.
I always think this is awful advice, but in this case: just show her this post.
It may take a while to regain her trust, but she needs to know it was all just steamy emails and texts. I don't think she can be mad about the ones sent and received before you met. But she can be very suspicious of you texting and emailing while you were together.
posted by CunningLinguist at 4:14 PM on January 26, 2009
I always think this is awful advice, but in this case: just show her this post.
It may take a while to regain her trust, but she needs to know it was all just steamy emails and texts. I don't think she can be mad about the ones sent and received before you met. But she can be very suspicious of you texting and emailing while you were together.
posted by CunningLinguist at 4:14 PM on January 26, 2009
I have trouble beliieving you myself. You cop to knowing what you were doing was wwrong at the time, but you couldn't do the right thing. You claim you'd never do it again, bbut you don't seem to have learned anything you didn't already know. Why in gods name should your partner trust you now? Actions speak louder blah blah...
posted by rikschell at 4:15 PM on January 26, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 4:15 PM on January 26, 2009 [4 favorites]
"I am a wayward pickle. You are irreplaceable. I've already started counseling to figure out why I have lead us to this moment. I know you will need some time to think and to see if I'm serious, but I am."
Then don't be a wayward pickle.
posted by barnone at 4:17 PM on January 26, 2009
Then don't be a wayward pickle.
posted by barnone at 4:17 PM on January 26, 2009
I'm blown away. This whole post was honest, apologetic, and realistic. I don't even know you, and (although you've admittedly done some jerkish behaviour here) I still feel like you're a good guy.
Share this post with her.
posted by thatbrunette at 4:23 PM on January 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
Share this post with her.
posted by thatbrunette at 4:23 PM on January 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
I can be of some help I think, mefimail me if you wish as I don't want to disclose more on a public page. Or post a throwaway email?
posted by variella at 4:26 PM on January 26, 2009
posted by variella at 4:26 PM on January 26, 2009
If you haven't broken off contact with the OW, do so.
Your heart was in the right place... you avoided having an actual sexual relationship with your online buddy, and your also broke it off for the sake of your new SO.
I'm confused about your living arrangements with your newer partner and your child. Are you estranged? Do you still live together?
You need to develop trust, and so you may have to separate for a while. While you are separated, avoid chat rooms. Join a support group. Generally show your partner that you are trying to make changes.
After a while, see what she wants to do. Perhaps counseling is the answer. But try to build up that trust by demonstrating that you are trying to change your ways.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:33 PM on January 26, 2009
Your heart was in the right place... you avoided having an actual sexual relationship with your online buddy, and your also broke it off for the sake of your new SO.
I'm confused about your living arrangements with your newer partner and your child. Are you estranged? Do you still live together?
You need to develop trust, and so you may have to separate for a while. While you are separated, avoid chat rooms. Join a support group. Generally show your partner that you are trying to make changes.
After a while, see what she wants to do. Perhaps counseling is the answer. But try to build up that trust by demonstrating that you are trying to change your ways.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:33 PM on January 26, 2009
Don't show your partner this post. If she can't handle a bit of raunchy online chatting, she won't be able to handle the fact that you disclosed details of your relationship to ten of thousands of Internet strangers.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:34 PM on January 26, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by KokuRyu at 4:34 PM on January 26, 2009 [6 favorites]
I have to confess that I found it hard to follow the story as well. So I can only comment in a sort of general way.
Technically, it's not just that "this woman" is irreplaceable. Everyone you've ever cared about is ultimately irreplaceable. My ex-husband is irreplaceable -- there will never be another guy quite like him in my life, and the end of our marriage was very sad and difficult, and I dealt with it in different ways for years. And yet, we both moved on, and (nine years later) I am in a happy relationship with someone who is ALSO irreplaceable.
I say this to see if you can come back from the brink of all the absolutist language you are using to narrativize your situation. Using language like "irreplaceable" "perfect" "I will do anything" "I cannot lose him/her or live without him/her," tends to generate panic, fear, and paralysis. And panic, fear, and paralysis rarely -- if ever -- lead to healthy, productive decisions.
I understand you do not want to lose this woman and that you want to repair the relationship. However, creating a narrative in which losing her is UNTHINKABLE may actually do more harm than good, as counterintuitive as it may seem. Losing her must become thinkable in order to face your fears, rather than letting your fears drive you. You need to make thoughtful, heartfelt decisions, which are different from panicked reactions (which is where you are stuck right now). If you lose her, what then? You will feel loss, grief, anger, despair, the whole range of human pain. And you can survive all of those things. The fear of something being unbearable doesn't actually mean it's unbearable.
Knowing that losing the relationship is a possibility -- as hard as it certainly would be -- may give you the freedom and the breathing space to work TOGETHER to see if you really can create a new relationship in which you're both giving and receiving the right levels of support, security, and affection to build (and sustain) a sense of being on the same team. (On that score, I recommend How to Be an Adult in Relationships.)
posted by scody at 4:36 PM on January 26, 2009 [16 favorites]
Technically, it's not just that "this woman" is irreplaceable. Everyone you've ever cared about is ultimately irreplaceable. My ex-husband is irreplaceable -- there will never be another guy quite like him in my life, and the end of our marriage was very sad and difficult, and I dealt with it in different ways for years. And yet, we both moved on, and (nine years later) I am in a happy relationship with someone who is ALSO irreplaceable.
I say this to see if you can come back from the brink of all the absolutist language you are using to narrativize your situation. Using language like "irreplaceable" "perfect" "I will do anything" "I cannot lose him/her or live without him/her," tends to generate panic, fear, and paralysis. And panic, fear, and paralysis rarely -- if ever -- lead to healthy, productive decisions.
I understand you do not want to lose this woman and that you want to repair the relationship. However, creating a narrative in which losing her is UNTHINKABLE may actually do more harm than good, as counterintuitive as it may seem. Losing her must become thinkable in order to face your fears, rather than letting your fears drive you. You need to make thoughtful, heartfelt decisions, which are different from panicked reactions (which is where you are stuck right now). If you lose her, what then? You will feel loss, grief, anger, despair, the whole range of human pain. And you can survive all of those things. The fear of something being unbearable doesn't actually mean it's unbearable.
Knowing that losing the relationship is a possibility -- as hard as it certainly would be -- may give you the freedom and the breathing space to work TOGETHER to see if you really can create a new relationship in which you're both giving and receiving the right levels of support, security, and affection to build (and sustain) a sense of being on the same team. (On that score, I recommend How to Be an Adult in Relationships.)
posted by scody at 4:36 PM on January 26, 2009 [16 favorites]
I'm with thatbrunette...you sound entirely sincere, and to be honest, I can absolutely picture myself getting into a similar situation. All it takes is inaction, which is the easiest thing in the world.
That said, the flirtations with OW are of course a breach of your SO's trust, and you will have to earn that back. But you should make it clear to her that you owe no explanation for your earlier conversations before the two of you met. Stick to making amends over the actual wrong to HER, and let the past lie where it belongs.
posted by Pomo at 4:42 PM on January 26, 2009
That said, the flirtations with OW are of course a breach of your SO's trust, and you will have to earn that back. But you should make it clear to her that you owe no explanation for your earlier conversations before the two of you met. Stick to making amends over the actual wrong to HER, and let the past lie where it belongs.
posted by Pomo at 4:42 PM on January 26, 2009
This is an appalling position to find yourself in, and you're a grown man, not a teenager. You can't live like this. I mean, you can, but you shouldn't. Once you have a kid, you really shouldn't, but you shouldn't in the first place either. What you were having with this woman is commonly referred to as an emotional affair and in my experience, just as bad as a real one. What your partner is horrified by is the amount of time and energy and emotional output you poured into this thing, and all of that should have been going to her and your kid. You ripped her off, basically.
And you're saying, the other woman 'will' be gone in a phone call. Excuse my language but why the fuck isn't she gone now? Why are you posting this to Metafilter? If this is such a tearing your hair out emergency, I will give you a hint: do not piss away your time on the internet. What you do is grovel, grovel, grovel, and explain exactly why this was so wrong.
I'm not sure that you do understand exactly what the problem is, because you mention numerous times that emails were 'appropriate' and so on. For one thing, if you're noting their 'appropriateness', there's something wrong right there--why else would you be evaluating it? I don't evaluate my emails from opposite sex people for 'appropriateness' because I know that they're fine. I have no further need to define them, but you do--so I wonder, why is that? Secondly, the thing I mention in the first paragraph -- she's upset because you took your heart and eyes off of her. You were bored. She knows that. It hurts.
So there's that, and then you have to figure out why you did this--why you were looking for an escape hatch, and you have to face it squarely and let your partner in on these feelings, and let yourself look all crappy and vulnerable, because that's probably the way you're going to look.
But if you're a teenager, then, my apologies.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:43 PM on January 26, 2009 [4 favorites]
And you're saying, the other woman 'will' be gone in a phone call. Excuse my language but why the fuck isn't she gone now? Why are you posting this to Metafilter? If this is such a tearing your hair out emergency, I will give you a hint: do not piss away your time on the internet. What you do is grovel, grovel, grovel, and explain exactly why this was so wrong.
I'm not sure that you do understand exactly what the problem is, because you mention numerous times that emails were 'appropriate' and so on. For one thing, if you're noting their 'appropriateness', there's something wrong right there--why else would you be evaluating it? I don't evaluate my emails from opposite sex people for 'appropriateness' because I know that they're fine. I have no further need to define them, but you do--so I wonder, why is that? Secondly, the thing I mention in the first paragraph -- she's upset because you took your heart and eyes off of her. You were bored. She knows that. It hurts.
So there's that, and then you have to figure out why you did this--why you were looking for an escape hatch, and you have to face it squarely and let your partner in on these feelings, and let yourself look all crappy and vulnerable, because that's probably the way you're going to look.
But if you're a teenager, then, my apologies.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:43 PM on January 26, 2009 [4 favorites]
If you hadn't gotten caught, wouldn't you still be texting and emailing the other woman? It sounds to me like you're very sorry you got caught.
posted by Kangaroo at 4:46 PM on January 26, 2009 [9 favorites]
posted by Kangaroo at 4:46 PM on January 26, 2009 [9 favorites]
I don't want to say it quite as bluntly as mpls2 said it, but yeah, you're leaking vital amounts of self esteem. You've got to get yourself healthy before you can even approach mending this relationship.
Inviting (if not begging) someone to walk all over you is just plain stupid, but a very common thing for someone with very low self-esteem. She already has little respect for you, begging her to stomp all over your life will only reduce that respect. Never mind that it will make you absolutely miserable and put you in a position where you can't defend your space without severely damaging the relationship.
Besides she doesn't want someone (else) in her life to babysit. What a giant pain in the ass to have to go though your boyfriends keylogs just to make sure he's faithful. Who would be happy with that kind of situation? She doesn't want your desperation, she wants to know you're dedicated, she wants to know she can trust you. It sounds like you can't even trust yourself.
I say get some professional help for your self esteem issues and you'll naturally become more responsible, reliable and much less of a jerk. And you'll be a better role model for the kid.
posted by Ookseer at 5:05 PM on January 26, 2009
Inviting (if not begging) someone to walk all over you is just plain stupid, but a very common thing for someone with very low self-esteem. She already has little respect for you, begging her to stomp all over your life will only reduce that respect. Never mind that it will make you absolutely miserable and put you in a position where you can't defend your space without severely damaging the relationship.
Besides she doesn't want someone (else) in her life to babysit. What a giant pain in the ass to have to go though your boyfriends keylogs just to make sure he's faithful. Who would be happy with that kind of situation? She doesn't want your desperation, she wants to know you're dedicated, she wants to know she can trust you. It sounds like you can't even trust yourself.
I say get some professional help for your self esteem issues and you'll naturally become more responsible, reliable and much less of a jerk. And you'll be a better role model for the kid.
posted by Ookseer at 5:05 PM on January 26, 2009
This was difficult to follow. A lot of it predicates on whether or not you were having the lewd conversations before or after you were with your current woman. I tried to decipher that from the post and couldn't do it. If you were having those conversations, I don't blame her for being upset about them. If you weren't, then I agree with mckenney.
Anyway, the thing that stood out most to me is that you're an absolute doormat. I mean that in regards to both the current lady and "other woman." If your wife finds it hard to believe you weren't having a less a innocuous relationship with the other woman, it's because I think most adults would read this and think, "What the hell? Why didn't you firmly tell her to stop contacting you, and quit responding to anything she tried to say after?" It's not exactly rocket science. I would have trouble believing someone wasn't lying if they said, "I didn't want any sort of relationship with her but I didn't know how to tell her to quit sending me suggestive pictures and e-mails and texts." I would expect anyone, especially someone who valued having a relationship with me, to not have trouble being firm about that sort of thing.
Frankly, if you're not lying to us or yourself about your intentions with this OW, then that's a little baffling. Why are you such a pushover? Why did you let this other woman manipulate you to the point that there's a good chance you'll lose someone you consider irreplaceable? I put myself in your position and I wouldn't have made any of the same choices. It would have come up in casual conversation with my husband, for example, if some random guy was coming on to me and it was bothersome. I know this because it's happened a few times. Once it passed my comfort level, I would have told the guy look, this is creepy, please don't talk to me that way. And if they continued, I would have told them never to contact me again. I know this, again, because it's happened a few times. You should have never even reached this bizarre "Watergate" stage, as you called it.
I'm not telling you this to make you feel bad, but to get you to recognize that this seems to be the core of the problem. (Assuming, of course, that you weren't actually excited that OW was interested in you and didn't want it to end.) If you hadn't let her walk all over you, for what reason I can't even imagine, this would not have gotten to this point.
Moving on to your current woman, you say you'd let her chip your computer and everything, and that she went through your backup drives and everything... Again, this crosses the line from complete honesty to pushover territory. Does that not seem odd to you? You call her irreplaceable and all these similar things... you're letting that run your life. scody's advice on that is spot-on. My husband is "irreplaceable" and so are many others in my life, but at the point where they would want me to completely sacrifice all my rights or values, I would have to learn to live without them. That sense of value has to come from within, but you seem to place it inordinately on other people. I would guess that this, if anything, is why those women are walking all over you, but I have no way of knowing for certain.
I would recommend couple's counseling if she's willing to go. But more than that, I think you need therapy by yourself as well, to help you figure out why you let these things happen.
posted by Nattie at 5:25 PM on January 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
Anyway, the thing that stood out most to me is that you're an absolute doormat. I mean that in regards to both the current lady and "other woman." If your wife finds it hard to believe you weren't having a less a innocuous relationship with the other woman, it's because I think most adults would read this and think, "What the hell? Why didn't you firmly tell her to stop contacting you, and quit responding to anything she tried to say after?" It's not exactly rocket science. I would have trouble believing someone wasn't lying if they said, "I didn't want any sort of relationship with her but I didn't know how to tell her to quit sending me suggestive pictures and e-mails and texts." I would expect anyone, especially someone who valued having a relationship with me, to not have trouble being firm about that sort of thing.
Frankly, if you're not lying to us or yourself about your intentions with this OW, then that's a little baffling. Why are you such a pushover? Why did you let this other woman manipulate you to the point that there's a good chance you'll lose someone you consider irreplaceable? I put myself in your position and I wouldn't have made any of the same choices. It would have come up in casual conversation with my husband, for example, if some random guy was coming on to me and it was bothersome. I know this because it's happened a few times. Once it passed my comfort level, I would have told the guy look, this is creepy, please don't talk to me that way. And if they continued, I would have told them never to contact me again. I know this, again, because it's happened a few times. You should have never even reached this bizarre "Watergate" stage, as you called it.
I'm not telling you this to make you feel bad, but to get you to recognize that this seems to be the core of the problem. (Assuming, of course, that you weren't actually excited that OW was interested in you and didn't want it to end.) If you hadn't let her walk all over you, for what reason I can't even imagine, this would not have gotten to this point.
Moving on to your current woman, you say you'd let her chip your computer and everything, and that she went through your backup drives and everything... Again, this crosses the line from complete honesty to pushover territory. Does that not seem odd to you? You call her irreplaceable and all these similar things... you're letting that run your life. scody's advice on that is spot-on. My husband is "irreplaceable" and so are many others in my life, but at the point where they would want me to completely sacrifice all my rights or values, I would have to learn to live without them. That sense of value has to come from within, but you seem to place it inordinately on other people. I would guess that this, if anything, is why those women are walking all over you, but I have no way of knowing for certain.
I would recommend couple's counseling if she's willing to go. But more than that, I think you need therapy by yourself as well, to help you figure out why you let these things happen.
posted by Nattie at 5:25 PM on January 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
Scody is a genius.
What I'm reading is a lot of talk about how you're not minimizing your conduct. Except no one has accused you of that. You don't realize it fully, but you are hiding something else behind that: whatever it was that motivated you to do those things. Your focus on a lot of unproductive detail tells me you don't want to focus on why you did this.
You did this because you are weak. You would rather avoid the difficulty of cutting off online flirting with some far-away woman than live up to promises you made to the. mother of your child.
I'm going to guess that you often will avoid a small thing now, even if it means giant problems later.
And this is why your partner will not trust you. Its not because she feels offended because you flirted a lot on the internet before, its because she knows how deeply involved you have been regarding this behavior in the past and sees no change in the real problems that cause it.
Nor do you propose that you take care of the problem yourself. Instead, your partner is supposed to regulate your behavior by watching you every minute. Who wants that? I don't care how much I like someone, even if I could literally guarantee their fidelity by watching over them every waking moment(with their consent), I would not consider that a worthwhile relationship.
You are refusing to control obsessive behavior. That is why you fail.
What to do? First, realize that her decision is out of your hands and you do not control it. Second, come to grips with your very real and realistic anxiety regarding your chances. Third, apologize, tell her you are going into therapy and that you hope she can understand that and forgive you.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:48 PM on January 26, 2009 [8 favorites]
What I'm reading is a lot of talk about how you're not minimizing your conduct. Except no one has accused you of that. You don't realize it fully, but you are hiding something else behind that: whatever it was that motivated you to do those things. Your focus on a lot of unproductive detail tells me you don't want to focus on why you did this.
You did this because you are weak. You would rather avoid the difficulty of cutting off online flirting with some far-away woman than live up to promises you made to the. mother of your child.
I'm going to guess that you often will avoid a small thing now, even if it means giant problems later.
And this is why your partner will not trust you. Its not because she feels offended because you flirted a lot on the internet before, its because she knows how deeply involved you have been regarding this behavior in the past and sees no change in the real problems that cause it.
Nor do you propose that you take care of the problem yourself. Instead, your partner is supposed to regulate your behavior by watching you every minute. Who wants that? I don't care how much I like someone, even if I could literally guarantee their fidelity by watching over them every waking moment(with their consent), I would not consider that a worthwhile relationship.
You are refusing to control obsessive behavior. That is why you fail.
What to do? First, realize that her decision is out of your hands and you do not control it. Second, come to grips with your very real and realistic anxiety regarding your chances. Third, apologize, tell her you are going into therapy and that you hope she can understand that and forgive you.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:48 PM on January 26, 2009 [8 favorites]
Here is what I suggest. Stop trying to pursue this woman and just focus on being a very good father to your child. If you can do anything to rebuild her trust it's by being a good, caring father to the child you share.
And if it doesn't work, at least your son will benefit from having a good, caring father.
posted by 26.2 at 6:20 PM on January 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
And if it doesn't work, at least your son will benefit from having a good, caring father.
posted by 26.2 at 6:20 PM on January 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
Well, here's my take:
1. Don't grovel, beg pitifully, or stalk. That will reinforce her view of you as not having your shit together. I think women are good at detecting self-esteem problems, which are not attractive. It's not the best time to fly that kind of color.
2. Be in enthusiastic, sincere agreement with your partner, even if she wants to split up. The idea is you're supporting her and turning yourself into a positive, enabling force in her life and a good role model for the child, all of which is attractive. I'd put good money on it that if you do this she won't split up or will come around, yet if you resist, argue, quarrel, and beg, it just lays groundwork for a dysfunctional relationship and problems later on.
3. Now's not the time to be imbibing in any booze, drugs, etc to get through it.
4. The other woman needed to be out of your life years ago... I'm in total agreement with those asking why this is taking 'one phone call' to be over.
Even if you do get back together I think it's going to be rocky, so you need to have your shit together and you're 100% clean on this.
I think you need to ride this one out as this is so far gone that it's her call. The key will be #2 and doing whatever it takes, short of vices, to keep yourself happy. Keep your chin up. And if she doesn't come around, it probably wasn't meant to be and you'll have a lot of groundwork for getting on with a happy life instead of being in the gutter as a bitter ex.
posted by crapmatic at 7:29 PM on January 26, 2009
1. Don't grovel, beg pitifully, or stalk. That will reinforce her view of you as not having your shit together. I think women are good at detecting self-esteem problems, which are not attractive. It's not the best time to fly that kind of color.
2. Be in enthusiastic, sincere agreement with your partner, even if she wants to split up. The idea is you're supporting her and turning yourself into a positive, enabling force in her life and a good role model for the child, all of which is attractive. I'd put good money on it that if you do this she won't split up or will come around, yet if you resist, argue, quarrel, and beg, it just lays groundwork for a dysfunctional relationship and problems later on.
3. Now's not the time to be imbibing in any booze, drugs, etc to get through it.
4. The other woman needed to be out of your life years ago... I'm in total agreement with those asking why this is taking 'one phone call' to be over.
Even if you do get back together I think it's going to be rocky, so you need to have your shit together and you're 100% clean on this.
I think you need to ride this one out as this is so far gone that it's her call. The key will be #2 and doing whatever it takes, short of vices, to keep yourself happy. Keep your chin up. And if she doesn't come around, it probably wasn't meant to be and you'll have a lot of groundwork for getting on with a happy life instead of being in the gutter as a bitter ex.
posted by crapmatic at 7:29 PM on January 26, 2009
I think this post was anything but brutally honest. If it had been, I would have completely respected this statement:
t won't be an issue, and I am insanely in love. I blew it, and I take full responsibility, and realize it is the same as a traditional affair.
You prevaricate, you hedge, you do everything but take responsibility.
I don't think you need to let her read your email. If she has to do that to trust you, then there is no hope. But you have to just full out, balls to the wall, say that IT WILL NEVER AGAIN BE AN ISSUE, and mean it.
personally, if it was me, I wouldn't trust you. You're a touring musician. Even the best, most kindest hearted men I have known who were touring musicians, who seemed to be true to their woman, always had a "special friend" in Phoenix or Boise or somewhere. Your continually blaming your boredom on the road on your emotional involvement means you are incapable of handling a committed relationship. What's going to happen the next time you're tired or drunk or upset and stuck in Lawrence, Kansas, and a cute girl makes you laugh?
Can you answer that one, truthfully?
This is why I will never be involved with a musician ever again, and why your current love should not trust you - unless you can answer that with a damn good explanation. I've yet to hear one, myself.
posted by micawber at 7:33 PM on January 26, 2009 [4 favorites]
t won't be an issue, and I am insanely in love. I blew it, and I take full responsibility, and realize it is the same as a traditional affair.
You prevaricate, you hedge, you do everything but take responsibility.
I don't think you need to let her read your email. If she has to do that to trust you, then there is no hope. But you have to just full out, balls to the wall, say that IT WILL NEVER AGAIN BE AN ISSUE, and mean it.
personally, if it was me, I wouldn't trust you. You're a touring musician. Even the best, most kindest hearted men I have known who were touring musicians, who seemed to be true to their woman, always had a "special friend" in Phoenix or Boise or somewhere. Your continually blaming your boredom on the road on your emotional involvement means you are incapable of handling a committed relationship. What's going to happen the next time you're tired or drunk or upset and stuck in Lawrence, Kansas, and a cute girl makes you laugh?
Can you answer that one, truthfully?
This is why I will never be involved with a musician ever again, and why your current love should not trust you - unless you can answer that with a damn good explanation. I've yet to hear one, myself.
posted by micawber at 7:33 PM on January 26, 2009 [4 favorites]
Previous to this I was a participant, and admit that I wasn't exactly harsh about the photos and attention.
I'm sorry but there is no way to put this. No matter how much you protest, how much you lie to yourself, so much you try to that fake honesty schtick that some people in this thread have caught on, you're a total tool. Get on Tool Academy, try your vulnerable lost soul crap there, make it to the end round and walk away with the ten thousand dollar prize. You are 100% lying to yourself, to the women in your relationship and to your son. You are not vulnerable. You are not a victim. And you have done nothing to change your ways and your life. She will never come back because you refuse to change. And how do I know this? Because there is no integrity in your question.
These other women did not just happen to you. They did not force themselves on you. They didn't point a gun at your head and force you to accept naked pictures of them. You didn't protest, you didn't care. Whenever you got to a point with these other women where you felt scared for your own hide (you were afraid of getting caught not of the harm you were having on those people around you), you acted scared and tough but then, once things calmed down, you went back to the way you behaved before. And you're still doing that. You are not vulnerable. You are not honest. You are manipulative. You are weak. And you are a liar to yourself, your world, and the ones you claim to love but don't.
The thing is, the mother of your child has figured this all out. She knows who you really are and what drives you. And she knows you're not going to change because you will never be honest with who you are, what you've done, and actually participate and deal with the consequences that come with being a part of this little thing we call life. Cut your losses, go to therapy, and let your child live in an environment where your manipulating, dishonest, and irresponsible behavior isn't the norm.
posted by Stynxno at 7:34 PM on January 26, 2009 [15 favorites]
I'm sorry but there is no way to put this. No matter how much you protest, how much you lie to yourself, so much you try to that fake honesty schtick that some people in this thread have caught on, you're a total tool. Get on Tool Academy, try your vulnerable lost soul crap there, make it to the end round and walk away with the ten thousand dollar prize. You are 100% lying to yourself, to the women in your relationship and to your son. You are not vulnerable. You are not a victim. And you have done nothing to change your ways and your life. She will never come back because you refuse to change. And how do I know this? Because there is no integrity in your question.
These other women did not just happen to you. They did not force themselves on you. They didn't point a gun at your head and force you to accept naked pictures of them. You didn't protest, you didn't care. Whenever you got to a point with these other women where you felt scared for your own hide (you were afraid of getting caught not of the harm you were having on those people around you), you acted scared and tough but then, once things calmed down, you went back to the way you behaved before. And you're still doing that. You are not vulnerable. You are not honest. You are manipulative. You are weak. And you are a liar to yourself, your world, and the ones you claim to love but don't.
The thing is, the mother of your child has figured this all out. She knows who you really are and what drives you. And she knows you're not going to change because you will never be honest with who you are, what you've done, and actually participate and deal with the consequences that come with being a part of this little thing we call life. Cut your losses, go to therapy, and let your child live in an environment where your manipulating, dishonest, and irresponsible behavior isn't the norm.
posted by Stynxno at 7:34 PM on January 26, 2009 [15 favorites]
Beyond Affairs, if you really do want to keep her. Short story, cold turkey on "OW" (seriously?), answer each and every question honestly, and be prepared to deal with the anger and the hurt that's coming your way. It's a good site for both of you.
The late Shirley Glass has good information as well.
posted by lysdexic at 8:06 PM on January 26, 2009
The late Shirley Glass has good information as well.
posted by lysdexic at 8:06 PM on January 26, 2009
I dunno... I see this more like a cross between desjardins and thatbrunette. What he says here makes a lot of sense to me. People make mistakes, and they make mistakes they badly regret. It doesn't mean the OP is an asshole.
OP: I say this as someone who has been in the (scarily similar) position of your partner. You've broken the trust she has in you. Personally, I think everything you've said above makes a lot of sense. I think it would be good to somehow get this message to her, either by letter or if you're both talking together calmly, by asking her to allow you to explain all of this. You did the wrong thing and you know it, but you're not really guilty of doing the wrong thing she thinks you are.
I think what desjardins said bears repeating - cut things off permanently with OW (you did that already right? RIGHT?). She sounds like she has a screw loose anyway, and you may have been putting your family at risk dealing with a person who knows no boundaries like that. You probably should have had better sense and seen that long ago, but I think you're just emerging from un-attached life, and found yourself in a relationship you really truly want to be in and have let un-attached life habits bleed inappropriately across through deliberate inaction. Sometimes things aren't always clear as you're navigating through them, so now, as crappy as your life has become, you now you have the clarity you need to act decisively.
Answer every question she has calmly, explain why this is different, and why you will not ever give her cause to doubt again. Then... work really hard at being a good man, and not ever doing this again. I can't say for sure, because I don't know you both, obviously, but in my case it was fixable and your situation may be too. I mean it - work super hard at being a stand up guy.
Trust is trust is trust, but a woman who has just had a baby is not going to willing to deal with relationship ebb and flow the way you nromally would be, and you have pulled the rug from beneath her when she was most vulnerable and in need of support. Be honest, mean it, and work really hard at being the good guy you really seem at heart to be. If you have disclosed everything relationship-wise which is important here, I would say don't give up - I think it's worth making a huge effort to put this behind you.
posted by lottie at 8:38 PM on January 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
OP: I say this as someone who has been in the (scarily similar) position of your partner. You've broken the trust she has in you. Personally, I think everything you've said above makes a lot of sense. I think it would be good to somehow get this message to her, either by letter or if you're both talking together calmly, by asking her to allow you to explain all of this. You did the wrong thing and you know it, but you're not really guilty of doing the wrong thing she thinks you are.
I think what desjardins said bears repeating - cut things off permanently with OW (you did that already right? RIGHT?). She sounds like she has a screw loose anyway, and you may have been putting your family at risk dealing with a person who knows no boundaries like that. You probably should have had better sense and seen that long ago, but I think you're just emerging from un-attached life, and found yourself in a relationship you really truly want to be in and have let un-attached life habits bleed inappropriately across through deliberate inaction. Sometimes things aren't always clear as you're navigating through them, so now, as crappy as your life has become, you now you have the clarity you need to act decisively.
Answer every question she has calmly, explain why this is different, and why you will not ever give her cause to doubt again. Then... work really hard at being a good man, and not ever doing this again. I can't say for sure, because I don't know you both, obviously, but in my case it was fixable and your situation may be too. I mean it - work super hard at being a stand up guy.
Trust is trust is trust, but a woman who has just had a baby is not going to willing to deal with relationship ebb and flow the way you nromally would be, and you have pulled the rug from beneath her when she was most vulnerable and in need of support. Be honest, mean it, and work really hard at being the good guy you really seem at heart to be. If you have disclosed everything relationship-wise which is important here, I would say don't give up - I think it's worth making a huge effort to put this behind you.
posted by lottie at 8:38 PM on January 26, 2009 [1 favorite]
This is, supposedly, a question about how you made a really stupid mistake and need to keep that mistake from ruining your otherwise fantastic relationship.
But then there's this: on the longest business trip in history, my partner, newborn, and I shared a hotel room for almost a month....In a blowout about the stress of my trip, I decided I had to go home and decided to hitchhike for the 10 hour trip.
So, you spend a month in a hotel room with your wife and your baby. And this ends with you deciding to hitchhike ten hours because you need to get away. This isn't what happy people do.
You've been emotionally cheating on the mother of your child. The post you gave us, with all the information you think we need, gives us almost no information about your wife, except what she demands of you, what she doesn't like about you. Your child garners no description other than the fact that he is two. You give us an incredible amount of information about the other woman, and even about the specific details about the dirty pictures she has sent you.. But the woman and the child that are supposedly the center of your life, supposedly the people you want to accept you back into their lives, have almost no descriptions.
Like I said, happy people do not get so stressed out about spending a month in close quarters with their significant other that they hitchhike for ten hours (or considerably longer, since I doubt you spent all that time in a car). Happy people who really do think their partner is irreplaceable are more likely to give us more information than you have about who that partner actually is, or why your relationship with them is worth saving. Happy people who are happy with their relationships don't find themselves semi-accidentally receiving pictures of boobs and pantied butts from a female friend.
So my point is this: I think you're lying to yourself if you think that this other woman is the only problem you're facing. I think you're lying to yourself if you think that the flirting was just a stupid mistake that won't repeat itself unless something more fundamental in your relationship changes. I think, more likely, that there are reasons behind your flirtations, that there are stresses and frustrations in your relationship that you're not admitting to us. And, even further, I'd bet money that your partner is very aware of these other issues, even if she won't or can't completely express them to you. You keep telling her, "I won't flirt online again!" and, my hypothesis is, she knows that that promise is worth nothing until the more painful problems between the two of you are worked out.
So, be honest. To yourself and to her. Don't say, "Honey, it was only pictures!!!" not because it trivializes the emotional cheating that occurred but, instead, because it only masks the more important issues you need to solve.
(This is, of course, just my reading of your question, and I can accept that maybe I'm wrong. Like a lot of other people, I had some difficulty reading your question, and some of it reads very..weird. Some of it just doesn't ring emotionally true, to me. So, this is my response, given the fact that what you have said sounds strange to my ear. Take from it what you will.)
posted by Ms. Saint at 8:39 PM on January 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
But then there's this: on the longest business trip in history, my partner, newborn, and I shared a hotel room for almost a month....In a blowout about the stress of my trip, I decided I had to go home and decided to hitchhike for the 10 hour trip.
So, you spend a month in a hotel room with your wife and your baby. And this ends with you deciding to hitchhike ten hours because you need to get away. This isn't what happy people do.
You've been emotionally cheating on the mother of your child. The post you gave us, with all the information you think we need, gives us almost no information about your wife, except what she demands of you, what she doesn't like about you. Your child garners no description other than the fact that he is two. You give us an incredible amount of information about the other woman, and even about the specific details about the dirty pictures she has sent you.. But the woman and the child that are supposedly the center of your life, supposedly the people you want to accept you back into their lives, have almost no descriptions.
Like I said, happy people do not get so stressed out about spending a month in close quarters with their significant other that they hitchhike for ten hours (or considerably longer, since I doubt you spent all that time in a car). Happy people who really do think their partner is irreplaceable are more likely to give us more information than you have about who that partner actually is, or why your relationship with them is worth saving. Happy people who are happy with their relationships don't find themselves semi-accidentally receiving pictures of boobs and pantied butts from a female friend.
So my point is this: I think you're lying to yourself if you think that this other woman is the only problem you're facing. I think you're lying to yourself if you think that the flirting was just a stupid mistake that won't repeat itself unless something more fundamental in your relationship changes. I think, more likely, that there are reasons behind your flirtations, that there are stresses and frustrations in your relationship that you're not admitting to us. And, even further, I'd bet money that your partner is very aware of these other issues, even if she won't or can't completely express them to you. You keep telling her, "I won't flirt online again!" and, my hypothesis is, she knows that that promise is worth nothing until the more painful problems between the two of you are worked out.
So, be honest. To yourself and to her. Don't say, "Honey, it was only pictures!!!" not because it trivializes the emotional cheating that occurred but, instead, because it only masks the more important issues you need to solve.
(This is, of course, just my reading of your question, and I can accept that maybe I'm wrong. Like a lot of other people, I had some difficulty reading your question, and some of it reads very..weird. Some of it just doesn't ring emotionally true, to me. So, this is my response, given the fact that what you have said sounds strange to my ear. Take from it what you will.)
posted by Ms. Saint at 8:39 PM on January 26, 2009 [2 favorites]
Ms. Saint & I fixated on the same paragraph. "on the longest business trip in history, my partner, newborn, and I shared a hotel room for almost a month....In a blowout about the stress of my trip, I decided I had to go home and decided to hitchhike for the 10 hour trip"
You left your wife with a newborn because of "the stress of your trip?"
And before you left: "I was cooped up in the hotel room, bored stiff. The flirting and pictures came back."
How did they come back? Where is your part in what happened there? Did they come back before or after the stress? Was the stress your own desire to be with OW, or was she part of how you were escaping all that family pressure, or something else?
It sounds like you're trying to imply to us the truth somewhere in that paragraph. That paragraph is the fulcrum between "she was respectful of my request" and "the pictures and flirting continued for about two or three more months before I finally told her that I would cease contact if it kept up." But we don't know how the pictures came back. And after they did, you left your wife and got this OW to admit she was in love with you.
Meanwhile, you paint all of the OW's actions in malignancy: you "accused her" of being in love "despite her protestations to the contrary." It "weirded you out" that she bought you a train ticket. It sounds to me like you're trying to offload responsibility onto this other woman. In your portrayal, she sounds like a stalker, but I'm wondering if her actions would seem more reasonable if we knew everything you said to her.
My advice to you would be to get really honest with yourself about what you did and why. You're very candid in some places, but it still feels like you're not admitting something. Until you're really honest about your part in what happened, and what inside you caused you to make those choices, your partner has no reason to believe things would ever be different in the future.
posted by salvia at 1:20 AM on January 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
You left your wife with a newborn because of "the stress of your trip?"
And before you left: "I was cooped up in the hotel room, bored stiff. The flirting and pictures came back."
How did they come back? Where is your part in what happened there? Did they come back before or after the stress? Was the stress your own desire to be with OW, or was she part of how you were escaping all that family pressure, or something else?
It sounds like you're trying to imply to us the truth somewhere in that paragraph. That paragraph is the fulcrum between "she was respectful of my request" and "the pictures and flirting continued for about two or three more months before I finally told her that I would cease contact if it kept up." But we don't know how the pictures came back. And after they did, you left your wife and got this OW to admit she was in love with you.
Meanwhile, you paint all of the OW's actions in malignancy: you "accused her" of being in love "despite her protestations to the contrary." It "weirded you out" that she bought you a train ticket. It sounds to me like you're trying to offload responsibility onto this other woman. In your portrayal, she sounds like a stalker, but I'm wondering if her actions would seem more reasonable if we knew everything you said to her.
My advice to you would be to get really honest with yourself about what you did and why. You're very candid in some places, but it still feels like you're not admitting something. Until you're really honest about your part in what happened, and what inside you caused you to make those choices, your partner has no reason to believe things would ever be different in the future.
posted by salvia at 1:20 AM on January 27, 2009 [4 favorites]
What micawber said. The touring musician lifestyle is not generally compatible with monogamous relationships with stay-at-home partners. [Caveat: i said "not generally". I am sure there are musicians who can manage it, but I doubt many of them are male rock musicians under 35.] It's incredibly boring except for the brief adrenaline shot of the show itself, it's repetitive in a "Hello, Cleveland! We brought this show just for you!" sort of way, and there are an awful lot of people freely offering whatever numbing agent you prefer: sex, drugs, food, booze, gambling, guns, mix and match as you like. The tour bus smells like socks and your drummer snores. You've really started to hate the lead singer, and it's a blessing the bus has WiFi so you can retreat into your bunk and...chat with fangirls who send you pics.
None of this is an excuse, but it is a reality you must balance against the other reality that you have a partner with whom you have a child, you may still have a legal wife (unclear if you are still just separated or you've divorced), and you have a woman who thought she was in a relationship with you and whom you've treated appallingly - you paint this as her obsession with you, and yet you are answering her emails and texts, encouraging the conversation, and seem not to have told her "Stop" without following it with "BTW, what are you wearing?"
Dude, you sound like you're really trying. I give you that. What's getting in the way is that you are a literal rock star. You are surrounded by people whose job it is to keep you happy so you will continue to put on the old-school t-shirt or the leather pants or the strap or hat or whatever is the thing you do so the kids in the nosebleed seats know it's you. If you're off the road now, please figure out a way to get into therapy. What happens to aging rockers, especially guys who aren't frontmen, can be really, really sad because they've not learned how to function in the world where their wives and kids live. I hope you figure it out and get what you want from your life, and then from your music.
posted by catlet at 7:03 AM on January 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
None of this is an excuse, but it is a reality you must balance against the other reality that you have a partner with whom you have a child, you may still have a legal wife (unclear if you are still just separated or you've divorced), and you have a woman who thought she was in a relationship with you and whom you've treated appallingly - you paint this as her obsession with you, and yet you are answering her emails and texts, encouraging the conversation, and seem not to have told her "Stop" without following it with "BTW, what are you wearing?"
Dude, you sound like you're really trying. I give you that. What's getting in the way is that you are a literal rock star. You are surrounded by people whose job it is to keep you happy so you will continue to put on the old-school t-shirt or the leather pants or the strap or hat or whatever is the thing you do so the kids in the nosebleed seats know it's you. If you're off the road now, please figure out a way to get into therapy. What happens to aging rockers, especially guys who aren't frontmen, can be really, really sad because they've not learned how to function in the world where their wives and kids live. I hope you figure it out and get what you want from your life, and then from your music.
posted by catlet at 7:03 AM on January 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
You can't be punished for what you did during the "lost year". Period. I'm not even sure why she felt she had the right (or why you agreed she had the right) to read chat transcripts of years past when you were not together.
Pay for your transgressions by being a decent human, a wonderful father, attending couples counseling, and see if the trust can be rebuilt.
But do not put yourself in a position where, because of this admittedly uncool online affair (yes, it was emotional cheating, it still counts), you somehow have to right the wrongs of your entire life for this woman. That just builds resentment.
posted by agentwills at 7:33 AM on January 27, 2009
Pay for your transgressions by being a decent human, a wonderful father, attending couples counseling, and see if the trust can be rebuilt.
But do not put yourself in a position where, because of this admittedly uncool online affair (yes, it was emotional cheating, it still counts), you somehow have to right the wrongs of your entire life for this woman. That just builds resentment.
posted by agentwills at 7:33 AM on January 27, 2009
Well, let's see. you have substance abuse issues, you're married AND have a baby momma AND have an online girlfriend. You apparently just couldn't stop yourself from acquiring the online girlfriend WHILE BABYMOMMA WAS PREGNANT. I'm sorry, but doing that to a pregnant woman's even worse than the usual. Despite being very sorry you got caught, I have the impression reading this that even if babymomma was dumb enough to take you back, you'd be online flirting again the next day because you haven't learned. Damn straight she should assume you're going to do it again, even if she rides your ass 24-7. Hell, even if she had the spare time to babysit your online chatting, you're gonna be out of town, she'll have to go to the bathroom, and you'll probably be at it again.
Frankly, I can't think of any reason babymomma should get back together with you. I'd advise her not to.
You have not learned from this experience yet, sir. Until you do- and that's gonna mean that you and her SPLIT UP and you learn on your own- you're not worthy of getting back together with her. Until you can restrain yourself from online cheating, at the very least, leave the woman alone.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:45 AM on January 27, 2009
Frankly, I can't think of any reason babymomma should get back together with you. I'd advise her not to.
You have not learned from this experience yet, sir. Until you do- and that's gonna mean that you and her SPLIT UP and you learn on your own- you're not worthy of getting back together with her. Until you can restrain yourself from online cheating, at the very least, leave the woman alone.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:45 AM on January 27, 2009
I'm not in the same boat with the people here saying they think you beat yourself up over nothing based on your portrayal. What I read is line after line where you pretty much say, "then I made the same mistake, even as I was halfheartedly trying not to make the same mistake, but by the way, here's why it was out of my hands, it just happened, again and again..." You apologize/beat yourself up over things a lot, to the point it starts to feel meaningless, but you also consistently avoid taking responsibility for your actions and how they brings things into play. If it was really as simple as you kept telling this chick to cut it out and she wouldn't, there's no reason for you not to have told your serious lady friend so. You never explain fully why you didn't (it reads like you haven't even to yourself), which leads me to think you didn't really want it to stop in the first place, you're misrepresenting how you actually interacted with this other woman (not so one-sided), or yes, as others said, you were subconsciously feeding off the drama or trying to sabotage what you had. By not fully committing to either woman I get the impression you felt big or "nice" or something, by trying to please both. But you can't have both on these weird wishy washy irresponsible terms. The constant "I didn't say anything, waiting for her to step in" stuff and "Then I just had to leave" etc all sounds like wishy washy pathetic excuses to seriously examine why the heck you did (and didn't do) the things you do. It also indicates you still haven't figured out that until you're brave enough to start drawing lines--"I did X, which lead to Y, and therefore I need to stop freaking doing X"--you're not going to learn a lesson enough to make things better in the future.
And especially, the sense of guilt and that you felt you owed it to this other woman and understood her jealousy when your freakin' family life was, you know, taking up your time--the weeks after the baby--reads like emotional cheating, not to mention more wishy washy inabiliy to take a stand and realize you can't please everyone and you have to be willing to prioritize your family or not. This sort of cheating--cheating your new family out of being the most important social priority--can be lot worse in some ways than this weird cataloging (which tends to read as more of you avoiding responsibility by reminding yourself it wasn't "so" lewd) of single naked breasts and tawdry chats and flirting that "at least" wasn't online fucking.
Sorry to be so harsh. It just sounds like you haven't figured it out yet, and like it may take this woman leaving you for you to get a clue. You may have to accept now, finally, that when you do things without thinking through their implications thoroughly, they lead to consequences and that's that. You read like you view it as if everything you do is done in this sleepwalking fog where poor you just watches as things happen to you, and you're helpless and impotent to take action and be willing to stand by the consequences as things you brought about. The drinking/drug thing was earlier, but you almost sound like you still have an addict mentality--like "I can't be held responsible for what I do and fail to do, I was out of it and drunk and you can understand that's not really me so that's that." Just wake up.
posted by ifjuly at 9:45 AM on January 27, 2009
And especially, the sense of guilt and that you felt you owed it to this other woman and understood her jealousy when your freakin' family life was, you know, taking up your time--the weeks after the baby--reads like emotional cheating, not to mention more wishy washy inabiliy to take a stand and realize you can't please everyone and you have to be willing to prioritize your family or not. This sort of cheating--cheating your new family out of being the most important social priority--can be lot worse in some ways than this weird cataloging (which tends to read as more of you avoiding responsibility by reminding yourself it wasn't "so" lewd) of single naked breasts and tawdry chats and flirting that "at least" wasn't online fucking.
Sorry to be so harsh. It just sounds like you haven't figured it out yet, and like it may take this woman leaving you for you to get a clue. You may have to accept now, finally, that when you do things without thinking through their implications thoroughly, they lead to consequences and that's that. You read like you view it as if everything you do is done in this sleepwalking fog where poor you just watches as things happen to you, and you're helpless and impotent to take action and be willing to stand by the consequences as things you brought about. The drinking/drug thing was earlier, but you almost sound like you still have an addict mentality--like "I can't be held responsible for what I do and fail to do, I was out of it and drunk and you can understand that's not really me so that's that." Just wake up.
posted by ifjuly at 9:45 AM on January 27, 2009
Warning: your post makes me angry.
Secondary warning: what I'm about to write is unkind and completely unsupportive of you. So stop reading now if you're just not in the mood.
You really, really care about someone and that's very obvious. And that person is YOU. It's not your SON, it's not this woman you allegedly can't bear to lose. You care about yourself, your own needs, and your own desires. This is particularly unfortunate for your son.
Your son is too young to articulate this yet, but on behalf of kids who have shitty parents (for I am one), I say this: he wants parents who are respectful toward him, even if they aren't together. He wants lack of drama. And you've failed him miserably and I'm pretty sure you will continue to, given the lengths you clearly go to to justify your behavior. A real man would have written the following: I fucked up horribly. I bypassed multiple opportunities to be a better person. How can I be a better father? What can I do to prevent myself from hurting people I believe I love? How can I accept my relationship is over because of my actions? Yet you wrote nothing of that nature, so your denial is very deep and therefore unlikely to be alleviated by, well, pretty much anything IMHO.
Sack up. You're no victim here. You hurt three people you say you care about: your son and your two (yes, count 'em) girlfriends. Oh, and your former wife, too. But most importantly, in your eyes anyway, you've hurt yourself and now you're scrambling to put back together what is, in my estimation, irrevocably shattered. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sounds like all of you will be better off on your own paths.
You sound like someone who doesn't take responsibility for how your actions impact others. Have you stopped to think about the example you're setting for your son? Maybe when he grows up you will indeed be his role model as my dad is for me: of what not to be. Irresponsible, insensitive, secretive, unfaithful, and deceitful.
Do, for quite possibly the first time in years, something kind for the people you say you care about. Leave them alone. Concentrate on being a good father. Accept you fucked up in a mighty way. But don't try to be Mr. Right for your girlfriend because that ship has sailed like the Titanic, my friend. The best thing you can do is let them find someone who treats them with honesty and kindness since they haven't got a shot at getting that from you. You've proven that over and over again.
posted by December at 1:47 PM on January 27, 2009
Secondary warning: what I'm about to write is unkind and completely unsupportive of you. So stop reading now if you're just not in the mood.
You really, really care about someone and that's very obvious. And that person is YOU. It's not your SON, it's not this woman you allegedly can't bear to lose. You care about yourself, your own needs, and your own desires. This is particularly unfortunate for your son.
Your son is too young to articulate this yet, but on behalf of kids who have shitty parents (for I am one), I say this: he wants parents who are respectful toward him, even if they aren't together. He wants lack of drama. And you've failed him miserably and I'm pretty sure you will continue to, given the lengths you clearly go to to justify your behavior. A real man would have written the following: I fucked up horribly. I bypassed multiple opportunities to be a better person. How can I be a better father? What can I do to prevent myself from hurting people I believe I love? How can I accept my relationship is over because of my actions? Yet you wrote nothing of that nature, so your denial is very deep and therefore unlikely to be alleviated by, well, pretty much anything IMHO.
Sack up. You're no victim here. You hurt three people you say you care about: your son and your two (yes, count 'em) girlfriends. Oh, and your former wife, too. But most importantly, in your eyes anyway, you've hurt yourself and now you're scrambling to put back together what is, in my estimation, irrevocably shattered. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sounds like all of you will be better off on your own paths.
You sound like someone who doesn't take responsibility for how your actions impact others. Have you stopped to think about the example you're setting for your son? Maybe when he grows up you will indeed be his role model as my dad is for me: of what not to be. Irresponsible, insensitive, secretive, unfaithful, and deceitful.
Do, for quite possibly the first time in years, something kind for the people you say you care about. Leave them alone. Concentrate on being a good father. Accept you fucked up in a mighty way. But don't try to be Mr. Right for your girlfriend because that ship has sailed like the Titanic, my friend. The best thing you can do is let them find someone who treats them with honesty and kindness since they haven't got a shot at getting that from you. You've proven that over and over again.
posted by December at 1:47 PM on January 27, 2009
I don't think you're a bad a guy, you just got stuck in an awkward situation. Your main mistake was failing to act when you should've (you should've cut off this flirtation with this online woman as soon as your new relationship started, but you let it go on because it seemed harmless).
Like most people you enjoyed what seemed like harmless internet flirtation and attention from a woman. It was insidious because at first it seemed totally normal and innocuous and slowly grew more and more flirtatious. By the time you knew you should've stopped you'd had a friendly relationship with this online woman for so long that just cutting her off completely seemed to dishonor the friendship you had had.
Let your partner know that things got out of control, but that you never meant to harm her and you NEVER would have a physical affair with another woman. This one grew into an emotional affair without you really realizing, but you'll be way more vigilant about such things in the future. And that those lewd chats were from a dark period and nothing like that has happened outside of that year, not even with this online woman.
Just explain yourself like you did above, and let her know you know what you did wrong and you'll strive to not let it happen again. That's the best you can do really.
It will take time for her to build up trust in you again, and you can help it along by being overly transparent in your outings and interactions with women. You don't need to be overly detailed, just make sure you're not withholding any info from her that could be interpreted as suspicious... let her know where you're going and with whom, check in while you're out, etc.
Keylogging is going too far though. She's going to have to trust that your intentions are good to some degree, so it all depends on how convincing you can be that this really will never happen again...
Good luck! Don't beat yourself up too much and let it become a handicap, really what you did wasn't that bad at all. You're all overreacting. :)
posted by thejrae at 2:26 PM on January 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
Like most people you enjoyed what seemed like harmless internet flirtation and attention from a woman. It was insidious because at first it seemed totally normal and innocuous and slowly grew more and more flirtatious. By the time you knew you should've stopped you'd had a friendly relationship with this online woman for so long that just cutting her off completely seemed to dishonor the friendship you had had.
Let your partner know that things got out of control, but that you never meant to harm her and you NEVER would have a physical affair with another woman. This one grew into an emotional affair without you really realizing, but you'll be way more vigilant about such things in the future. And that those lewd chats were from a dark period and nothing like that has happened outside of that year, not even with this online woman.
Just explain yourself like you did above, and let her know you know what you did wrong and you'll strive to not let it happen again. That's the best you can do really.
It will take time for her to build up trust in you again, and you can help it along by being overly transparent in your outings and interactions with women. You don't need to be overly detailed, just make sure you're not withholding any info from her that could be interpreted as suspicious... let her know where you're going and with whom, check in while you're out, etc.
Keylogging is going too far though. She's going to have to trust that your intentions are good to some degree, so it all depends on how convincing you can be that this really will never happen again...
Good luck! Don't beat yourself up too much and let it become a handicap, really what you did wasn't that bad at all. You're all overreacting. :)
posted by thejrae at 2:26 PM on January 27, 2009 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
The other option is couple's counseling.
posted by DonSlice at 3:47 PM on January 26, 2009