How do I properly approach women on the subway?
September 18, 2010 2:38 PM Subscribe
As a 28 y/o guy living in NYC, there is no shortage of attractive women. I recently read this, and would like to get some opinions from fellow MeFites...
...On how to proceed with approaching women I find attractive while on the subway/street. The blog post gives a good starting point of what is acceptable and what is not, but further analysis of this topic would be appreciated.
Example: attractive woman across from me and I were trading glances on the subway today, but I could not think of what to say if I approached her. I don't know how to, for lack of a better word…operate…in this scenario. Help?
...On how to proceed with approaching women I find attractive while on the subway/street. The blog post gives a good starting point of what is acceptable and what is not, but further analysis of this topic would be appreciated.
Example: attractive woman across from me and I were trading glances on the subway today, but I could not think of what to say if I approached her. I don't know how to, for lack of a better word…operate…in this scenario. Help?
Personally, I don't think approaching women on the street or subway is ever o.k. There is so much possibility for misconstruing "glances" for example that I think it is more respectful to not take the chance of being annoying, intrusive, or creepy. Let the streets and subways and transit be a place where people can just mind their own business.
posted by Rumple at 2:49 PM on September 18, 2010 [15 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 2:49 PM on September 18, 2010 [15 favorites]
I'm just one woman, but I personally wouldn't react very well to a guy using a cheesy pickup line on me in the subway as the article suggests (at a bar or party, maybe... on public transportation, no way). On the subway, you could maybe try:
-complaining about service changes (seriously, how are we supposed to live without the 1 for two weekends?) or how busy/not air-conditioned/whatever the car is
-asking if she understood what the conductor just mumbled over the intercom
-asking for directions
-making eye contact while laughing at whatever ridiculous thing is going on in the car
posted by oinopaponton at 2:50 PM on September 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
-complaining about service changes (seriously, how are we supposed to live without the 1 for two weekends?) or how busy/not air-conditioned/whatever the car is
-asking if she understood what the conductor just mumbled over the intercom
-asking for directions
-making eye contact while laughing at whatever ridiculous thing is going on in the car
posted by oinopaponton at 2:50 PM on September 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
oinopaponton has it. You need to approach it like you are approaching a lady in a bookstore, coffee shop, etc.
But be aware that you might have a shorter time to make some moves on a subway. You have to be cool but jump at the opportunity and be fairly witty and entertaining. If you're the type of person that needs a few minutes to warm up, that won't work on the subway because her stop is coming up soon and, I'm sorry, but there are very few things that will get someone to miss their stop. Remember, this is New York. We're important people with places to be. If we're not, we're tourists.
Stopping someone in the street will be really hard to pull off because, remember, this is New York and ladies of all types are usually harassed while walking by. If you try to stop her, you'll most likely be put into this category.
Some of the few things that you can do, as a male, to get young ladies out to actually notice you is to be a decent guy. If you see someone struggling with a door into a store or restaurant, hold it open for them. If you see someone struggling to put something into a cab, offer to help. If you see a pregnant lady or older person get on a subway, give up your seat. In essence, try to be a relatively thoughtful person. Don't act like you are doing it to get noticed, rather make it habit forming. And when you give up your seat, that gives you the perfect excuse to have a reason to get up and move about a subway car.
Also, be very aware that using this technique will most likely NOT get you a number. Be prepared to be rejected. Be prepared to have a nice conversation with a stranger and not get a name or number. It will happen. Just enjoy it and move on. If you come into the conversation thinking that you will get something, you'll stink more than the homeless person sleeping at the end of the car.
posted by Stynxno at 3:02 PM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
But be aware that you might have a shorter time to make some moves on a subway. You have to be cool but jump at the opportunity and be fairly witty and entertaining. If you're the type of person that needs a few minutes to warm up, that won't work on the subway because her stop is coming up soon and, I'm sorry, but there are very few things that will get someone to miss their stop. Remember, this is New York. We're important people with places to be. If we're not, we're tourists.
Stopping someone in the street will be really hard to pull off because, remember, this is New York and ladies of all types are usually harassed while walking by. If you try to stop her, you'll most likely be put into this category.
Some of the few things that you can do, as a male, to get young ladies out to actually notice you is to be a decent guy. If you see someone struggling with a door into a store or restaurant, hold it open for them. If you see someone struggling to put something into a cab, offer to help. If you see a pregnant lady or older person get on a subway, give up your seat. In essence, try to be a relatively thoughtful person. Don't act like you are doing it to get noticed, rather make it habit forming. And when you give up your seat, that gives you the perfect excuse to have a reason to get up and move about a subway car.
Also, be very aware that using this technique will most likely NOT get you a number. Be prepared to be rejected. Be prepared to have a nice conversation with a stranger and not get a name or number. It will happen. Just enjoy it and move on. If you come into the conversation thinking that you will get something, you'll stink more than the homeless person sleeping at the end of the car.
posted by Stynxno at 3:02 PM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
The trick to expressing interest in that kind of situation is to say something friendly and general as oinopaponton suggests, then if it's well received immediately follow it up by introducing yourself. Ex:
you: I thought that door was going to close on me
Her: oh I know, I'm always worried that will happen
You: Me too. I'm Bill, nice to meet you. I just moved out here/ have to get off at the next stop/ mind if I sit here?
her: I'm X, nice to meet you too. I just moved here too/ also work nearby/ am saving that seat/ no of course not, sit.
And it goes from there. As long as keep it friendly and light, don't ask for specifics about where she lives or anything too personal and you take no for an answer if that's what she says then it's not creepy at all. Introducing yourself courteously by name is mannerly and adult and generally puts people at ease. It also moves the conversation smoothly from strangers to mildly acquainted and it allows you to say hi the next time you see her in a friendly and slightly personal way.
At the very least you may make some friends doing this.
posted by fshgrl at 3:03 PM on September 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
you: I thought that door was going to close on me
Her: oh I know, I'm always worried that will happen
You: Me too. I'm Bill, nice to meet you. I just moved out here/ have to get off at the next stop/ mind if I sit here?
her: I'm X, nice to meet you too. I just moved here too/ also work nearby/ am saving that seat/ no of course not, sit.
And it goes from there. As long as keep it friendly and light, don't ask for specifics about where she lives or anything too personal and you take no for an answer if that's what she says then it's not creepy at all. Introducing yourself courteously by name is mannerly and adult and generally puts people at ease. It also moves the conversation smoothly from strangers to mildly acquainted and it allows you to say hi the next time you see her in a friendly and slightly personal way.
At the very least you may make some friends doing this.
posted by fshgrl at 3:03 PM on September 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
I live far from NYC, but I suggest this: aim at having a conversation with a nice woman, not at picking one up. When a guy starts a conversation with me on the bus, I'm usually glad to chat with them just for the joy of talking to a stranger. But if he moves straight into the YOU HAVE PRETTY EYES CAN I HAVE UR PHONE NUMBER PLZ territory I tend to be a little weirded out. Start with a hi, comment on something neutral and non-romantic, and move into flirty territory after she's established that she wants to keep talking to you.
posted by vanitas at 3:14 PM on September 18, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by vanitas at 3:14 PM on September 18, 2010 [4 favorites]
It is my opinion that you are better off letting women approach you. If you must, learn to flirt silently, and the type of woman who doesn't mind talking to random men in public will pick up on it. By flirting silently, I mean making eye contact multiple times, but not consistently (ie: no staring), blushing and smiling when they look back, and that sort of thing.
Maybe it's just me, but I am never cool with a guy approaching me unless he's passed this flirty-look barrier. If you just come sit next to me and start talking, I'm not ok with that. I haven't invited you into my space, but you've decided it's ok just because I look pretty. It's not. Don't use cheesy pick up lines... Let her do the talking, or compliment her taste in cloths/takeout food/whatever she has with her, but not her specifically- you don't know her.
posted by sunshinesky at 3:20 PM on September 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
Maybe it's just me, but I am never cool with a guy approaching me unless he's passed this flirty-look barrier. If you just come sit next to me and start talking, I'm not ok with that. I haven't invited you into my space, but you've decided it's ok just because I look pretty. It's not. Don't use cheesy pick up lines... Let her do the talking, or compliment her taste in cloths/takeout food/whatever she has with her, but not her specifically- you don't know her.
posted by sunshinesky at 3:20 PM on September 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
You have to be pretty subtle on the train, more so than anywhere else, because she is literally trapped with you, and it's much easier to be threatening by accident. Every woman has been hassled on the train at some point, and most have their guard up. There is still a way to approach, though.
Allow plausible deniability for both of you. Try smiling and friendly eye contact while asking a neutral question: "Do you know whether this train stops at 28th St?" or "Do you know whether I can transfer to the 6 train at any of these stops?" Then it's her job to let you know what to do. If she returns a smile and a longish answer, like, "Oh, gee, you know, I can never remember -- I think you can transfer to the 6 at Union Square, but it's been so long I can't be sure..." then you can try further neutral discussion, like, "I'm going to 1st Avenue, actually -- maybe I should just take the bus..." and take it from there. Basically, if she gives you a smile and eye contact + longer than necessary answer + doesn't return instantly to book or iPod, that means "I might be interested. Tell me more." It does not mean, "I want your name and number now." You still have a ways to go before you get there, but at least now you can talk about MTA service cuts, your destination, etc, and go on from there.
If she answers your questions with an unemotional or scowling face and one or two words, like, "Yes," or "No, sorry," she's saying she's not interested. To not be "that guy," you need to smile pleasantly and take the hint. Say "thanks" and move on.
posted by ROTFL at 3:22 PM on September 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
Allow plausible deniability for both of you. Try smiling and friendly eye contact while asking a neutral question: "Do you know whether this train stops at 28th St?" or "Do you know whether I can transfer to the 6 train at any of these stops?" Then it's her job to let you know what to do. If she returns a smile and a longish answer, like, "Oh, gee, you know, I can never remember -- I think you can transfer to the 6 at Union Square, but it's been so long I can't be sure..." then you can try further neutral discussion, like, "I'm going to 1st Avenue, actually -- maybe I should just take the bus..." and take it from there. Basically, if she gives you a smile and eye contact + longer than necessary answer + doesn't return instantly to book or iPod, that means "I might be interested. Tell me more." It does not mean, "I want your name and number now." You still have a ways to go before you get there, but at least now you can talk about MTA service cuts, your destination, etc, and go on from there.
If she answers your questions with an unemotional or scowling face and one or two words, like, "Yes," or "No, sorry," she's saying she's not interested. To not be "that guy," you need to smile pleasantly and take the hint. Say "thanks" and move on.
posted by ROTFL at 3:22 PM on September 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
On public transit in Chicago, I had mixed experiences talking to strangers on the subway, mostly negative but some positive. If you're going to approach women on the train, you have to accept that some of them will think you're a creep. It's too bad, because the positive conversations I had were really pleasant, but the negative experiences I had were really creepy and weird--they made me very cautious about talking to people on my commute.
Generally, a conversation about something happening on the train is ok, provided it isn't mean or racist--joking about the number of times the train stopped due to construction is ok, joking about the homeless man stumbling through asking for change isn't.
posted by Meg_Murry at 3:25 PM on September 18, 2010
Generally, a conversation about something happening on the train is ok, provided it isn't mean or racist--joking about the number of times the train stopped due to construction is ok, joking about the homeless man stumbling through asking for change isn't.
posted by Meg_Murry at 3:25 PM on September 18, 2010
I lived in NYC for many years, and though I was never approached by a guy on a subway or bus, I'm trying to think of how one could do it so it wouldn't weird me out. I'm thinking:
-look normal and clean
-follow her off at her stop, so as not to embarrass her/yourself by trapping her/yourself in a crowded train. but don't do this if the stop is empty, that will scare her.
-say something polite and brief, like "excuse me. i know this might sound weird, but i noticed you on the train and thought you looked pretty/interesting/like a cool person. i'd like to ask you out for coffee - could i have your number/email? if not, i understand."
-if she says no, accept it, say "ok, have a nice day/night" and leave
I think whether I'd say yes would depend on the guy and a million other things, but I'd at least be really flattered. I'd definitely respect you for trying.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 3:31 PM on September 18, 2010
-look normal and clean
-follow her off at her stop, so as not to embarrass her/yourself by trapping her/yourself in a crowded train. but don't do this if the stop is empty, that will scare her.
-say something polite and brief, like "excuse me. i know this might sound weird, but i noticed you on the train and thought you looked pretty/interesting/like a cool person. i'd like to ask you out for coffee - could i have your number/email? if not, i understand."
-if she says no, accept it, say "ok, have a nice day/night" and leave
I think whether I'd say yes would depend on the guy and a million other things, but I'd at least be really flattered. I'd definitely respect you for trying.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 3:31 PM on September 18, 2010
Is there anything about the women you are seeing on the subway, in the bookstore, or at the coffee shop, that makes you think they are looking for anything other than a pleasant commute, a nice book to read, or the quiet enjoyment of a beverage? If not, may I suggest that you direct your attentions elsewhere?
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 3:35 PM on September 18, 2010 [11 favorites]
posted by AkzidenzGrotesk at 3:35 PM on September 18, 2010 [11 favorites]
Sorry to post twice, but just noticed you emphasized "attractive." I think attractive women get this stuff all the friggin' time, and will be far more likely to be annoyed by it. As a not-attractive woman I'm flattered and/or surprised when I get this kind of attention, so I wasn't entirely taking that part into account. I still think you shouldn't be afraid to approach people, but you should really err on the side of polite and respectful behavior and language if you don't want to be associated with the kind of creeps who accost attractive women all the time.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 3:44 PM on September 18, 2010
posted by DestinationUnknown at 3:44 PM on September 18, 2010
Pay attention to body language. Catch her glance and smile. If she smiles back openly, rather than tentatively/politely, she may be more open to approach. If her arms are crossed, she's guarded. Make casual talk about the route, the stops, the conductor, where you're headed (notice you're not asking where she's headed).
Personally, I think the world would be an incredibly dull place if people never spoke to strangers on subways, or at bookshops and cafes. As long as you play it cool and don't get pushy, there's no reason for you to be a creepster, or for you to infringe upon her right to a peaceful commute.
posted by litnerd at 3:59 PM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Personally, I think the world would be an incredibly dull place if people never spoke to strangers on subways, or at bookshops and cafes. As long as you play it cool and don't get pushy, there's no reason for you to be a creepster, or for you to infringe upon her right to a peaceful commute.
posted by litnerd at 3:59 PM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Is there anything about the women you are seeing on the subway, in the bookstore, or at the coffee shop, that makes you think they are looking for anything other than a pleasant commute, a nice book to read, or the quiet enjoyment of a beverage? If not, may I suggest that you direct your attentions elsewhere?
Not everyone feels this way. "A pleasant commute" does not necessitate no social interaction. Even if the woman you chat to isn't interested in you as a dating prospect, a pleasant conversation is still pleasant.
posted by monkeymonkey at 4:00 PM on September 18, 2010
Not everyone feels this way. "A pleasant commute" does not necessitate no social interaction. Even if the woman you chat to isn't interested in you as a dating prospect, a pleasant conversation is still pleasant.
posted by monkeymonkey at 4:00 PM on September 18, 2010
Honestly, as an NYC woman, I have to say that I do not appreciate being stopped on the street or public transit in any form, no matter how cute/intelligent/rich/awesome you may be. The level of harassment or attempted engagement that I'm subjected to on a daily basis is exhausting, and when I'm riding the train, I want to read my book or stare into space or whatever, and I don't want to have an awkward conversation with a stranger asking me out in a tin can full of people who can overhear.
I think the only thing I would consider responding to would be one of those dating cards I've been hearing about -- like a business card, a two-second interaction, and then the ball's in my court.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 4:02 PM on September 18, 2010 [19 favorites]
I think the only thing I would consider responding to would be one of those dating cards I've been hearing about -- like a business card, a two-second interaction, and then the ball's in my court.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 4:02 PM on September 18, 2010 [19 favorites]
If you're just trying to have a conversation with me about innocuous things (oinopaponton's suggestions are good ones), depending on my mood, I'd be happy to respond. But the key here is that you'd be talking to me and trying to connect with me as a fellow human being sharing the same experience you are -- basically, would you be having this same conversation with another man? I wouldn't want it to feel like your only goal was to pick me up.
And if I give short answers, I'd probably want you to get the hint and stop talking to me.
But honestly, personally, I can't imagine a situation where a conversation on public transit would turn into anything else. I've had a few good ones with interesting people, but they always ended as soon as I got off at my stop. Maybe if you and I were taking the same route daily and it wasn't so much "random stranger hitting on me," that would be different.
I guess my point is don't expect anything but just enjoy talking to people. That to me should be the goal, and not getting a date.
posted by darksong at 5:27 PM on September 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
And if I give short answers, I'd probably want you to get the hint and stop talking to me.
But honestly, personally, I can't imagine a situation where a conversation on public transit would turn into anything else. I've had a few good ones with interesting people, but they always ended as soon as I got off at my stop. Maybe if you and I were taking the same route daily and it wasn't so much "random stranger hitting on me," that would be different.
I guess my point is don't expect anything but just enjoy talking to people. That to me should be the goal, and not getting a date.
posted by darksong at 5:27 PM on September 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
For what it's worth, I'm a woman (not in NYC but in Boston, which also has public transportation I take frequently) who would be incredibly weirded out that someone who just saw me on the subway thought I was date material. I mean, you don't even know me. Yeah, maybe I'm checking you out, but ... I'm just checking you out.
If you are serious about this, I'd say your best strategy is to strike up small talk with someone you see frequently during your commute. If you're going at the same time every day, and you're always in the same car, then that allows you to be recognized by the woman you're interested in. (I usually enjoy a interaction-less, book-focused subway commute, but that didn't stop me from noticing the "regulars" on my train each morning) That removes a little bit of the creepy factor and, after some time and a few conversations, would make me more apt to respond to your suggestion of coffee or dinner.
But for a random subway ride and conversation leading to a "can I have your number?" Sorry, but you have the Schroedinger's Rapist thing working again you.
posted by olinerd at 5:55 PM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you are serious about this, I'd say your best strategy is to strike up small talk with someone you see frequently during your commute. If you're going at the same time every day, and you're always in the same car, then that allows you to be recognized by the woman you're interested in. (I usually enjoy a interaction-less, book-focused subway commute, but that didn't stop me from noticing the "regulars" on my train each morning) That removes a little bit of the creepy factor and, after some time and a few conversations, would make me more apt to respond to your suggestion of coffee or dinner.
But for a random subway ride and conversation leading to a "can I have your number?" Sorry, but you have the Schroedinger's Rapist thing working again you.
posted by olinerd at 5:55 PM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I'm with peanut_mcgillicuty here. But if you must, if you must:
1) Prove non-creepiness by acting decently towards others and minding her personal space (i.e. don't plop down next to her or loom over her)
2) Make eye contact and only proceed if she glances eye contact back, preferably multiple glances exchanged
3) Smile broadly, not the terse, polite "Oh, I see, so you are also on this train, hah, look at that" smile that will nearly always get a similarly terse smile back. A big, cute, friendly smile. If she gives a similarly non-terse smile in response to the sort of smile you'd give a friend, OK, come up with your approach lines and whatnot because it means she thinks you're cute and not creepy enough to risk a real smile on you.
CAVEAT: You need to know the difference between the "I'm being polite" smile and "Let's be friends!" smile.
posted by Anonymous at 5:59 PM on September 18, 2010
1) Prove non-creepiness by acting decently towards others and minding her personal space (i.e. don't plop down next to her or loom over her)
2) Make eye contact and only proceed if she glances eye contact back, preferably multiple glances exchanged
3) Smile broadly, not the terse, polite "Oh, I see, so you are also on this train, hah, look at that" smile that will nearly always get a similarly terse smile back. A big, cute, friendly smile. If she gives a similarly non-terse smile in response to the sort of smile you'd give a friend, OK, come up with your approach lines and whatnot because it means she thinks you're cute and not creepy enough to risk a real smile on you.
CAVEAT: You need to know the difference between the "I'm being polite" smile and "Let's be friends!" smile.
posted by Anonymous at 5:59 PM on September 18, 2010
To pull this off you'd have to be very attractive and charismatic, but not come off as too slick.
People normally meet through pre-ordained social situations because random people on the subway are strangers. Guys that want to talk to you solely because of the way you look can be scary, boring or idiots- how would she figure out whether she wants to talk to you in such a short period of time anyhow when you are brought together by total randomness.
A scenario that would be more likely to be successful would be a sort of group merge event. Where you are out with other normal looking people and a group, which includes your designated attractive woman, coalesces.
I think it's a long shot. Anytime that I, as a woman, have engaged in conversation with an unknown man on the street or subway no relationship of any kind has resulted.
Actually, now that I think about it, one time I found a puppy on the street, a fellow also stopped and together we returned the puppy to its home. This would seem to be some kind of holy grail of pick up situations, and I, being a bit nutz, have always wondered if it were somehow orchestrated. I actually did come to know that guy-- however I ended up dating one of his friends.
posted by abirdinthehand at 6:05 PM on September 18, 2010
People normally meet through pre-ordained social situations because random people on the subway are strangers. Guys that want to talk to you solely because of the way you look can be scary, boring or idiots- how would she figure out whether she wants to talk to you in such a short period of time anyhow when you are brought together by total randomness.
A scenario that would be more likely to be successful would be a sort of group merge event. Where you are out with other normal looking people and a group, which includes your designated attractive woman, coalesces.
I think it's a long shot. Anytime that I, as a woman, have engaged in conversation with an unknown man on the street or subway no relationship of any kind has resulted.
Actually, now that I think about it, one time I found a puppy on the street, a fellow also stopped and together we returned the puppy to its home. This would seem to be some kind of holy grail of pick up situations, and I, being a bit nutz, have always wondered if it were somehow orchestrated. I actually did come to know that guy-- however I ended up dating one of his friends.
posted by abirdinthehand at 6:05 PM on September 18, 2010
One day I was riding the S between Grand Central and Times Square. The doors opened, and the guy sitting opposite me said, as he got up to leave the train, "I just wanted to tell you that you look really pretty." And off he went. So lovely. I don't know if he was in a relationship and just wanted to compliment me without doing anything untoward, or if he was just being flirty with no expectation of an outcome. If I was single, I would have checked Craigslist missed connections for him, because I liked his boldness, poise and respectfulness.
posted by xo at 6:11 PM on September 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by xo at 6:11 PM on September 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
Why not try to pick up women in places that are more conducive, such as a bar or a club? I think a subway would be especially bad, since if you were shot down for a date, you'd have to spend the remainder of the train ride next to that person. And she has no escape route if you make her feel uncomfortable for whatever reason.
Also, recommending that you make eye contact and smile BEFORE you approach, multiple times if possible.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 6:49 PM on September 18, 2010
Also, recommending that you make eye contact and smile BEFORE you approach, multiple times if possible.
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 6:49 PM on September 18, 2010
follow her off at her stop,
No, no, no, no, no. Really, do not ever do this.
posted by cmgonzalez at 7:10 PM on September 18, 2010 [25 favorites]
No, no, no, no, no. Really, do not ever do this.
posted by cmgonzalez at 7:10 PM on September 18, 2010 [25 favorites]
Female, native New Yorker here. I don't mind polite conversation, and it can be enjoyable if it's something like a blend of what oinopaponton and vanitas said. But let me say that if it's just based on looks, that can be uncomfortable, especially in a trapped situation.
If you ask questions like ROTFL suggests, personally, I'd probably go into my helpful mode and answer your questions, and being a rather friendly person who smiles, could give an answer that you might misconstrue if you're not careful to keep the fact that people differ in mind. I'm happily in a LTR and secure in that, so I'll smile and answer questions and converse a little with strangers who approach me on occasion. Thus, I don't always tend to jump to the conclusion that I'm being hit on or don't realize it until later.
I hate it when I'm having a conversation with an interesting guy and I say something or he asks if I have a boyfriend and suddenly, he's no longer interested in our friendly little conversation. I've had that happen multiple times with guys I thought I could start friendships with. It sucks.
So basically, what I'm saying is I agree with Vanitas a lot. Just talk to people, but if they go back to their book or music, leave them alone. If you do engage them in a friendly conversation, do so without expectation.
posted by cmgonzalez at 7:19 PM on September 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
If you ask questions like ROTFL suggests, personally, I'd probably go into my helpful mode and answer your questions, and being a rather friendly person who smiles, could give an answer that you might misconstrue if you're not careful to keep the fact that people differ in mind. I'm happily in a LTR and secure in that, so I'll smile and answer questions and converse a little with strangers who approach me on occasion. Thus, I don't always tend to jump to the conclusion that I'm being hit on or don't realize it until later.
I hate it when I'm having a conversation with an interesting guy and I say something or he asks if I have a boyfriend and suddenly, he's no longer interested in our friendly little conversation. I've had that happen multiple times with guys I thought I could start friendships with. It sucks.
So basically, what I'm saying is I agree with Vanitas a lot. Just talk to people, but if they go back to their book or music, leave them alone. If you do engage them in a friendly conversation, do so without expectation.
posted by cmgonzalez at 7:19 PM on September 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
Re: cmgonzales's point. Some people (like me, and I assumed others) are really uncomfortable when strangers start talking to them in an enclosed space where they can't get away. For some people, it feels much safer to be spoken to on a busy street corner or subway platform, so that they can walk away if they choose. Obviously others don't feel that way. I guess the only really safe thing is to never speak to strangers at all. Weirdly, as a native NY'er and introvert who generally doesn't even like people that much, that makes me sad...
posted by DestinationUnknown at 7:34 PM on September 18, 2010
posted by DestinationUnknown at 7:34 PM on September 18, 2010
BTW, I think you could greatly benefit from reading this post, and the lengthy thread that accompanies it.
It's been a while since I read it, but I'm pretty sure it's absolutely pertinent and I'm frankly surprised no one in this thread has mentioned it yet.
I think it's so important for you to read it,
posted by sunshinesky at 8:22 PM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's been a while since I read it, but I'm pretty sure it's absolutely pertinent and I'm frankly surprised no one in this thread has mentioned it yet.
I think it's so important for you to read it,
posted by sunshinesky at 8:22 PM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
How do you approach women on the subway?
You don't.
Seriously.
Just don't.
Unless you get some sort of unmistakable cue like a wink or her number scrawled on a page ripped out of her copy of The New Yorker. In which case you should approach like you'd approach anyone who was blatantly hitting on you.
posted by Sara C. at 8:29 PM on September 18, 2010 [5 favorites]
You don't.
Seriously.
Just don't.
Unless you get some sort of unmistakable cue like a wink or her number scrawled on a page ripped out of her copy of The New Yorker. In which case you should approach like you'd approach anyone who was blatantly hitting on you.
posted by Sara C. at 8:29 PM on September 18, 2010 [5 favorites]
what peanut_mcgillicuty said, and here's the link to the nytimes article. you could write something pithy and subway-related on it like "if you see something [cute], say something."
posted by theflash at 8:34 PM on September 18, 2010
posted by theflash at 8:34 PM on September 18, 2010
"A pleasant commute" does not necessitate no social interaction.
In New York, that is entirely untrue. In fact I would go so far as to say that, for most people, "pleasant commute" = "no unnecessary social interaction". Sometimes it even annoys me if other people are having loud conversations on the subway. I lovelovelove the fact that New Jersey Transit is starting a system of dedicating some train cars as quiet spaces. Almost makes me wish I lived in Jersey.
In the past, I have even had an arrangement with coworkers that, if we run into each other on the way to work, we are in non-work commuting private time mode and there will be no mandatory social interaction. Usually this arrangement happens with mutual relief. "Hey, if I see you on the train I might not talk to you, because I really need to have privacy and mentally prepare for the work day." "Haha! I feel exactly the same way - I'm so glad you said something."
So ummmm, yeah - strangers? I don't even want to talk to people I know during my commute. Especially in the morning. I have not had coffee yet. I do not want to be approached by some random dude who thinks I am hot.
posted by Sara C. at 8:39 PM on September 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
In New York, that is entirely untrue. In fact I would go so far as to say that, for most people, "pleasant commute" = "no unnecessary social interaction". Sometimes it even annoys me if other people are having loud conversations on the subway. I lovelovelove the fact that New Jersey Transit is starting a system of dedicating some train cars as quiet spaces. Almost makes me wish I lived in Jersey.
In the past, I have even had an arrangement with coworkers that, if we run into each other on the way to work, we are in non-work commuting private time mode and there will be no mandatory social interaction. Usually this arrangement happens with mutual relief. "Hey, if I see you on the train I might not talk to you, because I really need to have privacy and mentally prepare for the work day." "Haha! I feel exactly the same way - I'm so glad you said something."
So ummmm, yeah - strangers? I don't even want to talk to people I know during my commute. Especially in the morning. I have not had coffee yet. I do not want to be approached by some random dude who thinks I am hot.
posted by Sara C. at 8:39 PM on September 18, 2010 [6 favorites]
...On how to proceed with approaching women I find attractive while on the subway/street.
Please, please, just don't do this. I don't care who you are, I view it as harassment, plain and simple.
posted by Violet Hour at 8:46 PM on September 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
Please, please, just don't do this. I don't care who you are, I view it as harassment, plain and simple.
posted by Violet Hour at 8:46 PM on September 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
In New York, that is entirely untrue.
No it isn't. People differ, even here. There is no hard and fast rule.
posted by cmgonzalez at 9:00 PM on September 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
No it isn't. People differ, even here. There is no hard and fast rule.
posted by cmgonzalez at 9:00 PM on September 18, 2010 [3 favorites]
The only people who talk to me on the subway are tourists and extremely sketchy dudes. I'd definitely call "minimal social contact" an unwritten rule of the public transit systems of the US northeast.
posted by Sara C. at 9:03 PM on September 18, 2010
posted by Sara C. at 9:03 PM on September 18, 2010
In my experience, you would want to approach a woman on the subway in exactly the same fashion in which you would want to be approached by another man while at public urinal. Anything that would creep you out there has a non-zero chance of creeping her out here.
posted by KathrynT at 9:08 PM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by KathrynT at 9:08 PM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
Don't.
It's not romantic. It's not serendipitous.
Oh, maybe you know people who are married and they met on the subway. Well I had a great-uncle who smoked three packs a day and basically scooped and ate Crisco right from the can, and he lived to be 104.
Now it's possible that one day you'll be on the subway and you'll see literally the girl of your dreams, and your eyes will meet, and you'll know she feels just the same, etc. Or maybe you are so gorgeous and charming that you basically shit diamonds. If either of these is the case, you wouldn't need our advice. You'd just go and do your thing, and it would end happily ever after.
But the fact that you have to ask, means that you just shouldn't ever.
I was born and raised an attractive New Yorker, and I don't want to be "approached" on the subway. I can certainly be talked to -- I kind of love giving directions. You can even try a legitimate attempt at legitimate conversation ("Oh I just finished that book, have you gotten to the chapter about such-and-such yet?" as opposed to "Watcha reading?"). But this, where a mutual kvetch about the subway results in "Hi, my name is Bill" pretty much gave me a heart attack. It's very rare that I will acknowledge that others even exist on the subway/street -- I certainly don't want to know their names. Scary.
posted by thebazilist at 9:16 PM on September 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's not romantic. It's not serendipitous.
Oh, maybe you know people who are married and they met on the subway. Well I had a great-uncle who smoked three packs a day and basically scooped and ate Crisco right from the can, and he lived to be 104.
Now it's possible that one day you'll be on the subway and you'll see literally the girl of your dreams, and your eyes will meet, and you'll know she feels just the same, etc. Or maybe you are so gorgeous and charming that you basically shit diamonds. If either of these is the case, you wouldn't need our advice. You'd just go and do your thing, and it would end happily ever after.
But the fact that you have to ask, means that you just shouldn't ever.
I was born and raised an attractive New Yorker, and I don't want to be "approached" on the subway. I can certainly be talked to -- I kind of love giving directions. You can even try a legitimate attempt at legitimate conversation ("Oh I just finished that book, have you gotten to the chapter about such-and-such yet?" as opposed to "Watcha reading?"). But this, where a mutual kvetch about the subway results in "Hi, my name is Bill" pretty much gave me a heart attack. It's very rare that I will acknowledge that others even exist on the subway/street -- I certainly don't want to know their names. Scary.
posted by thebazilist at 9:16 PM on September 18, 2010 [2 favorites]
There is no universally safe place to meet a girl. There is always a reason why you're a terrible human being for even considering saying hello.
You basically have a choice. Have a life, while occasionally screwing up riotously, or hide your youth away. It really will be one or the other, and it's up to you (not anyone on this thread) to tell you which path to take.
posted by effugas at 12:24 AM on September 19, 2010
You basically have a choice. Have a life, while occasionally screwing up riotously, or hide your youth away. It really will be one or the other, and it's up to you (not anyone on this thread) to tell you which path to take.
posted by effugas at 12:24 AM on September 19, 2010
My dad met his second wife in the subway. But it only worked because
1) they saw each other there regularly
2) he had read the book she was reading and had interesting things to say about it
3) when he asked her out for coffee and she had no time he just said "okay, well, you let me know when you'd like to."
4) this was not in the US and people do smile at each other out of politeness (so less opportunity for mistaking politeness for interest).
posted by Omnomnom at 12:50 AM on September 19, 2010
1) they saw each other there regularly
2) he had read the book she was reading and had interesting things to say about it
3) when he asked her out for coffee and she had no time he just said "okay, well, you let me know when you'd like to."
4) this was not in the US and people do smile at each other out of politeness (so less opportunity for mistaking politeness for interest).
posted by Omnomnom at 12:50 AM on September 19, 2010
Also, if you take the advice above and get something of a positive response (i.e., she starts having an actual conversation with you), don't let your excitement about this distract you from keeping in mind everything you usually would know about social interaction.
One time I was on the bus while playing The Sims on my laptop and had the beginning of a nice conversation with a guy. Then, when he asked me what I was playing and I answered, he said, "The Sims? What's that? Is it a... interior decorating game?"
My immediate reaction was that if he didn't know enough about gaming (or culture in general?) to have even heard of The Sims, I wasn't particularly interested in explaining what it was about, and it seemed unlikely to me that he was going to be an interesting person for me to talk to. Maybe that was unfair of me, but it's how I felt - so I started shutting down the conversation. He seemed to have completely missed this, though, and kept trying to get me to talk about it until I got off the bus.
tl;dr: if you're able to start talking to someone, just don't forget to keep paying attention to the signs of whether you are (or really really aren't) socially compatible.
posted by synchronia at 12:53 AM on September 19, 2010
One time I was on the bus while playing The Sims on my laptop and had the beginning of a nice conversation with a guy. Then, when he asked me what I was playing and I answered, he said, "The Sims? What's that? Is it a...
My immediate reaction was that if he didn't know enough about gaming (or culture in general?) to have even heard of The Sims, I wasn't particularly interested in explaining what it was about, and it seemed unlikely to me that he was going to be an interesting person for me to talk to. Maybe that was unfair of me, but it's how I felt - so I started shutting down the conversation. He seemed to have completely missed this, though, and kept trying to get me to talk about it until I got off the bus.
tl;dr: if you're able to start talking to someone, just don't forget to keep paying attention to the signs of whether you are (or really really aren't) socially compatible.
posted by synchronia at 12:53 AM on September 19, 2010
Argh! Typo! People do NOT usually smile politely in my country. NOT!
*scowls*
posted by Omnomnom at 1:04 AM on September 19, 2010
*scowls*
posted by Omnomnom at 1:04 AM on September 19, 2010
As you can see from the wide range of responses, especially from women, this is pretty much the same as another approaching-women scenario: prepare for lots of rejections, and some successes, with the ratio depending on the many variables listed (your charisma/looks/dress/approach/openers/time of day/crowdedness of subway/etc. etc. etc.). One interesting variable might be time of day: on the way to work vs. coming home from a long day at work vs. coming home from a short day at work vs. going out for the night vs. going back to Brooklyn after a night in Manhattan, etc. Also age will be a factor: undergrads vs. grad students vs. young professionals vs. veteran professionals, etc.
I would agree that it's a similar approach to e.g. in a coffeeshop, or at least in the same category---as opposed to, say, bars or clubs, where there is an implicit understanding that hitting-on is likely to happen.
To throw some anecdotal evidence out there, as a tourist last winter I got a number on a late-night downtown train (~11pm) from a friendly grad student. I moved here about a month ago, and for the first two weeks I was 18 streets from work, so I sometimes rode the subway to/from, and in that time got one number, one friendly conversation, and one not-so-great conversation where she was probably uninterested, and possibly annoyed. On the other hand, I have an acquaintance who says recently he's meeting most women in his life on the subway---and indeed says those are the ones most likely to end up sleeping with him on first meeting, via something like "oh you live downtown on Xth street? I was just heading to a bar near there for the night; why don't you come along?" and then seduction proceeds as normal.
To give some structure to the discussion of openers, it looks like those most often suggested above are functional and situational. My own successes have been with situational. Broadly speaking the other possibilities are opinion, screening, direct, and no opener; of those I think opinion might have a chance, screening if you have mad charisma, direct would never work, and no-opener is a weak shot-in-the-dark as always.
posted by Jacen Solo at 3:26 AM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I would agree that it's a similar approach to e.g. in a coffeeshop, or at least in the same category---as opposed to, say, bars or clubs, where there is an implicit understanding that hitting-on is likely to happen.
To throw some anecdotal evidence out there, as a tourist last winter I got a number on a late-night downtown train (~11pm) from a friendly grad student. I moved here about a month ago, and for the first two weeks I was 18 streets from work, so I sometimes rode the subway to/from, and in that time got one number, one friendly conversation, and one not-so-great conversation where she was probably uninterested, and possibly annoyed. On the other hand, I have an acquaintance who says recently he's meeting most women in his life on the subway---and indeed says those are the ones most likely to end up sleeping with him on first meeting, via something like "oh you live downtown on Xth street? I was just heading to a bar near there for the night; why don't you come along?" and then seduction proceeds as normal.
To give some structure to the discussion of openers, it looks like those most often suggested above are functional and situational. My own successes have been with situational. Broadly speaking the other possibilities are opinion, screening, direct, and no opener; of those I think opinion might have a chance, screening if you have mad charisma, direct would never work, and no-opener is a weak shot-in-the-dark as always.
posted by Jacen Solo at 3:26 AM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
It is exhausting to have to constantly be interrupted by men and then have to struggle through the awkwardness of politely brushing them off. If you insist on doing it, yeah, the blog post has it right I guess... but, two things:
1. A lot of guys read that, understand it entirely, and for whatever reason cannot tell when a woman is brushing them off anyway. This is because many woman have learned that you must always maintain some level of friendliness because men have caused a scene or insulted us when we haven't, but a lot of guys think that if a woman smiles at them she's interested. They think they can tell the difference between an interested smile and a a polite one, but -- and I honestly can't explain this -- in my experience not a lot of guys can do that. I have seen guys I've known forever and highly respect, guys whom I would think would see the nuances, completely miss this time after time when dealing with women. It will be screamingly obvious to me that a woman is uncomfortable and uninterested, but because she is smiling and answering them at all, they will genuinely believe her to be interested. I've never seen anyone I'm friends with persist after they're given a clearcut spoken rejection, thankfully, but they'll be bewildered when I saw it coming after her second sentence. That interaction is painful in you're on the receiving end -- and when you're on the receiving end multiple times a day it can make you not want to leave the house.
I think at least part of the issue is that the friendliness in the smiles is very convincing, and often enough that's because the good will itself isn't faked; even if they desperately want you to leave them alone and feel dread at having been approached, it's not that hard to think you're still a decent person who is trying to be flattering, and that unless you prove them wrong, they don't want to make you feel bad. (Not all women find it easy to be rude to assholes, either: even if you seem like a sleazeball from the start, it can just heighten the fear and make them even more careful to be friendly. That's certainly my instinctive reaction.) I can't speak for everyone, but personally in those interactions I feel primarily dread, some knee-jerk anger that someone thinks they have the right to intrude on me just because they think I'm attractive and they want something from me and men don't have to deal with that nearly as much, then something like pity or sympathy because a lot of them are nice guys who don't know any better, then a touch of fear that things could go very badly because things have gone very badly before, and then the idea that unless you say something really asshole-ish you probably intend for me to feel at least a little good about having been approached, and good intentions do count for something.
So when I smile, all that wars together but it comes out genuinely friendly. Unfortunately. Well, unfortunately for me; it keeps guys from getting their feelings too hurt but it prolongs things and makes me miserable and misleads them, no matter what else I do. I purposely look away, try to go back to whatever I was doing, give uninteresting answers, be as terse as I can without risking being insulted... but I dunno, guys don't pick up on that. The smile seems to override everything.
Oh, and I should note that I have seen women interact with guys and I misread them as interested, too. I have one friend who really dislikes men and has extreme social anxiety, but she comes across as flirty when men talk to her; she's actually feeling really uncertain and self-loathing and trying very hard to be polite -- but it looks, and I mean REALLY looks, like bashful, coy, and interested. I had to get to know her much better and talk to her a lot, before we figured out that's what it was; she didn't realize she came across that way at all and couldn't figure out why guys would always stick around and condescend to her like she just needed encouragement to open up. She had thought they were completely stupid.
So if you're going to do it, know that a friendly smile means nothing. Plenty of women will smile with utmost sincerity even if you're making them miserable. If she's splitting her attention between you and anything else, then the chances are high that she just doesn't want to hurt your feelings or get called a cold bitch.
In other words, I would think of it less like "look for signs of discomfort" as "just look at where she's putting her attention," because there's a good chance you won't read her body language as "discomfort."
2. Even if you think you can read the cues, even if it turns out you actually can... well, I can't tell you what to do, and perhaps it's not as miserable a thing for some women as it is for others, but I still really wish you wouldn't do it. I can only speak for myself here, but the sheer frequency of these kinds of encounters makes me avoid going outside as much as possible. When I do go out, I try to go with my husband or at least other people because it's way more frequent when I'm alone, and if I must go out alone I try to dress as butch as I can. If I can't dress that way for some reason I don't wear any make-up and I take no care with my hair. That is how much I hate being approached.
And consider that 90+% of the time, nothing bad happens to me. It's just some guy, usually pretty polite, trying to ask me out. It's just so. fucking. draining. that it happens so much, when I'm trying to just live my life. I'm not even all that attractive. I'm somewhat overweight. I don't have big boobs or anything. I show no skin whatsoever, on purpose -- not even forearm. I live in LA, which is crawling with women who look like super models even when they go to the gym or the grocery store, and yet I STILL get approached everywhere I go. I can't even imagine how often those supermodel women must get approached -- but the point is, I don't know if you've imagined how often a woman has to deal with this sort of thing, but most guys don't realize the extent of it so maybe that will give you a place to start. (Inevitably another woman will say she never gets approached, and I can't explain why that is except that is the case for some women and I don't think they're lying and I don't think it means they're ugly and I don't want you to come away thinking every single woman ever deals with this. I can say most women I know have expressed similar experiences to mine, and it doesn't seem to matter if someone isn't conventionally attractive or if they're overweight or what.)
You are probably able to go do whatever you need to do without anyone really bothering you, at least most days, so it might be difficult to imagine, but: lots of women cannot do that. They cannot just go run their errands or go to work without being pulled into awkward social situations. It's very draining to have that looming over you every time you want to ride the bus somewhere, or get some coffee, or go to the post office. Every time it starts you don't know what's going to happen, so you have to keep living that moment of dread where you worry about pissing off the wrong guy -- and if he's not the wrong guy, just some average guy, you still have to disentangle yourself from him as gently as possible. You always have to be hyperaware of exactly how you're responding. You keep feeling that cringe->panic, cringe->panic, cringe->panic every time you try to brush a guy off and he doesn't read it correctly, and it drags on for minutes.
Imagine someone that really annoys you and can never take the hint that you don't want to talk to them; the most annoying person you know but are forced to be polite to, and maybe you kind of feel sorry for them. Remember how it feels when you see them walking up to you. Now imagine having that feeling multiple times a day, except you don't even know them well enough to know what tricks work to get rid of them.
I've had a handful of guys protest that isn't the same, because what they're doing is flattering. I know that's part of most guys' intent, but: I don't feel flattered, and neither do plenty of other women. Why? Because when it happens that often, you realize how uneventful it is for one human being to find another physically attractive. Think of the ugliest person you know and there's hundreds of people who would find them attractive. It isn't anything special or unique or meaningful, and when I hear it I think, okay, that's a nice thing to say I guess, but I feel... bored -- and not in a haughty, unimpressed way, just in a complete lack of response sort of way. It doesn't seem that men have women approach them to call them attractive all that often even if everyone who sees them thinks so, so to a lot of guys it would be an eventful, flattering thing and they just look at it through the lens of how they would feel -- which is natural so I don't blame them, I'm just saying consider that doesn't mean a woman would feel the same way.
And to be honest, while I don't hold it against anyone, I find it baffling and sometimes insulting when a guy wants my phone number when he doesn't even know me. It makes me feel shitty, really, to have someone approach me like my important characteristics, the things I feel make me who I actually am, are irrelevant. I won't go so far as to say "dehumanized" because that's too weighty a connotation, but it's some shadow of it -- like I may as well not even be there mentally or emotionally and that guy would still be coming up to me, wanting what he's wanting. It makes me feel like "I" -- whatever part of me does all the thinking -- don't have any place there, and that whoever or whatever the guy is talking to, it isn't me but some shell he saw and he liked. I haven't felt that way about nice strangers who actually engage me in conversation because there's some obvious genuine shared interest -- like it's clear from the conversation he's actually familiar with, say, something I'm carrying and he's not just faking it. But when a guy is trying to ask me out after three sentences I just feel dead inside, even when he's nice about it.
In short, you can intend for someone to feel a certain way and intentions mean you're not a jerk, but it doesn't mean they actually feel the way you want.
So that's why I wish you wouldn't do it at all. When I'm at the bus stop, I am not looking for a date. I'm looking to ride the bus. If I wanted a date I would go somewhere conducive to finding one, and I don't like feeling I'm up for auction whether I like it or not just because I left the house. Everyone gives up something when they go out in public, some small degree of privacy, but realistically speaking, few people can actually stay home all of the time. No one goes to the bus stop because they want to be there, they go because they HAVE to be there; the women who are there are captive, basically, and I just really hate the idea that it should be reasonable to be hit on there because it's to say that all those women have no right to be left alone. The worst and most frequent encounters I've had have been at bus stops and subway lines. I quit going to an internship at the state capitol because I literally could not wait for the bus afterward without being hit on, day after day, without fail. Granted the guys there would keep hassling me even once I refused to give them my number, but still: I hated going to an internship I should have loved because it's considered fair game to approach women on public transit. What was I supposed to do? I couldn't leave because I had to wait for the bus to get home.
And let me tell you, even when a guy is nice about it, it's still very awkward to have to keep sitting there until the bus comes, or until it's your stop -- and too many guys will try to keep talking at that point just to smooth over the awkwardness, when all I wanted was to be left alone in the first place. I'll be trying to read or get something done but they're not thinking about that; they're thinking about how nervous they are, and they babble and keep distracting me and I have to keep giving short but polite acknowledgements because I don't want them to feel worse than they already do. Meanwhile I'm hating that, without my having any say in it, it's my social lot in life to be something guys approach AND the source of their consolation when they can't have me -- not just because I don't like making people feel bad, but because often enough I get verbally abused if I don't fulfill those functions. This happens to women, over and over, every day: she's minding her own business, guy approaches her of his own volition, guy is shot down, guy goes off on her like she came up to him and wronged him. It was he, and no one else, who put himself in that situation. But she has to pay for not wanting him.
I can't say that's the case for all women, but for me, that shitty feeling I get from being approached lingers for maybe an hour -- all day if the guy is an asshole, but, yeah. The thing is, I get approached at least two or three times a day, so you see how the math works out. I used to go to parks and coffee shops and stuff to write, but I had to stop doing that because I kept being intruded upon by men approaching me -- and after it happens a few times I just get too distracted by feeling shitty, and then I start feeling anxiety every time a guy walks near me because he might start talking to me, so I can't focus on getting anything done.
I can't tell you what you should do, but I can say I don't think it's great that men mostly get to have separate places to go to when they're actively looking for a date, but women are considered to be always open. I'm not ruling out the serendipitous you-get-to-talking-and-hey-you-have-stuff-in-common-and-arrange-a-date scenario, but I can count on one hand how many times that was even what was going on -- among literally thousands of times I've been approached. You might ask yourself why is it not sufficient to get dates from people you can reasonably assume to be looking for a date? If it's some sort of what'll happen if I let this one get away feeling, well... I guess I don't think that holds up to logic and I'd start there, but you may feel differently. If you don't feel like a bar/club/online-dating person, then I sympathize because I'm not either -- but I'd suggest you're thinking too narrowly, and how you'd go about finding someone would depend on your specific interests and hobbies and whatnot; it's basically about putting yourself in a situation where those serendipitous conversations are more likely to happen.
Anyway, I hope this has been helpful in some way, and I hope something works out for you.
posted by Nattie at 3:37 AM on September 19, 2010 [17 favorites]
1. A lot of guys read that, understand it entirely, and for whatever reason cannot tell when a woman is brushing them off anyway. This is because many woman have learned that you must always maintain some level of friendliness because men have caused a scene or insulted us when we haven't, but a lot of guys think that if a woman smiles at them she's interested. They think they can tell the difference between an interested smile and a a polite one, but -- and I honestly can't explain this -- in my experience not a lot of guys can do that. I have seen guys I've known forever and highly respect, guys whom I would think would see the nuances, completely miss this time after time when dealing with women. It will be screamingly obvious to me that a woman is uncomfortable and uninterested, but because she is smiling and answering them at all, they will genuinely believe her to be interested. I've never seen anyone I'm friends with persist after they're given a clearcut spoken rejection, thankfully, but they'll be bewildered when I saw it coming after her second sentence. That interaction is painful in you're on the receiving end -- and when you're on the receiving end multiple times a day it can make you not want to leave the house.
I think at least part of the issue is that the friendliness in the smiles is very convincing, and often enough that's because the good will itself isn't faked; even if they desperately want you to leave them alone and feel dread at having been approached, it's not that hard to think you're still a decent person who is trying to be flattering, and that unless you prove them wrong, they don't want to make you feel bad. (Not all women find it easy to be rude to assholes, either: even if you seem like a sleazeball from the start, it can just heighten the fear and make them even more careful to be friendly. That's certainly my instinctive reaction.) I can't speak for everyone, but personally in those interactions I feel primarily dread, some knee-jerk anger that someone thinks they have the right to intrude on me just because they think I'm attractive and they want something from me and men don't have to deal with that nearly as much, then something like pity or sympathy because a lot of them are nice guys who don't know any better, then a touch of fear that things could go very badly because things have gone very badly before, and then the idea that unless you say something really asshole-ish you probably intend for me to feel at least a little good about having been approached, and good intentions do count for something.
So when I smile, all that wars together but it comes out genuinely friendly. Unfortunately. Well, unfortunately for me; it keeps guys from getting their feelings too hurt but it prolongs things and makes me miserable and misleads them, no matter what else I do. I purposely look away, try to go back to whatever I was doing, give uninteresting answers, be as terse as I can without risking being insulted... but I dunno, guys don't pick up on that. The smile seems to override everything.
Oh, and I should note that I have seen women interact with guys and I misread them as interested, too. I have one friend who really dislikes men and has extreme social anxiety, but she comes across as flirty when men talk to her; she's actually feeling really uncertain and self-loathing and trying very hard to be polite -- but it looks, and I mean REALLY looks, like bashful, coy, and interested. I had to get to know her much better and talk to her a lot, before we figured out that's what it was; she didn't realize she came across that way at all and couldn't figure out why guys would always stick around and condescend to her like she just needed encouragement to open up. She had thought they were completely stupid.
So if you're going to do it, know that a friendly smile means nothing. Plenty of women will smile with utmost sincerity even if you're making them miserable. If she's splitting her attention between you and anything else, then the chances are high that she just doesn't want to hurt your feelings or get called a cold bitch.
In other words, I would think of it less like "look for signs of discomfort" as "just look at where she's putting her attention," because there's a good chance you won't read her body language as "discomfort."
2. Even if you think you can read the cues, even if it turns out you actually can... well, I can't tell you what to do, and perhaps it's not as miserable a thing for some women as it is for others, but I still really wish you wouldn't do it. I can only speak for myself here, but the sheer frequency of these kinds of encounters makes me avoid going outside as much as possible. When I do go out, I try to go with my husband or at least other people because it's way more frequent when I'm alone, and if I must go out alone I try to dress as butch as I can. If I can't dress that way for some reason I don't wear any make-up and I take no care with my hair. That is how much I hate being approached.
And consider that 90+% of the time, nothing bad happens to me. It's just some guy, usually pretty polite, trying to ask me out. It's just so. fucking. draining. that it happens so much, when I'm trying to just live my life. I'm not even all that attractive. I'm somewhat overweight. I don't have big boobs or anything. I show no skin whatsoever, on purpose -- not even forearm. I live in LA, which is crawling with women who look like super models even when they go to the gym or the grocery store, and yet I STILL get approached everywhere I go. I can't even imagine how often those supermodel women must get approached -- but the point is, I don't know if you've imagined how often a woman has to deal with this sort of thing, but most guys don't realize the extent of it so maybe that will give you a place to start. (Inevitably another woman will say she never gets approached, and I can't explain why that is except that is the case for some women and I don't think they're lying and I don't think it means they're ugly and I don't want you to come away thinking every single woman ever deals with this. I can say most women I know have expressed similar experiences to mine, and it doesn't seem to matter if someone isn't conventionally attractive or if they're overweight or what.)
You are probably able to go do whatever you need to do without anyone really bothering you, at least most days, so it might be difficult to imagine, but: lots of women cannot do that. They cannot just go run their errands or go to work without being pulled into awkward social situations. It's very draining to have that looming over you every time you want to ride the bus somewhere, or get some coffee, or go to the post office. Every time it starts you don't know what's going to happen, so you have to keep living that moment of dread where you worry about pissing off the wrong guy -- and if he's not the wrong guy, just some average guy, you still have to disentangle yourself from him as gently as possible. You always have to be hyperaware of exactly how you're responding. You keep feeling that cringe->panic, cringe->panic, cringe->panic every time you try to brush a guy off and he doesn't read it correctly, and it drags on for minutes.
Imagine someone that really annoys you and can never take the hint that you don't want to talk to them; the most annoying person you know but are forced to be polite to, and maybe you kind of feel sorry for them. Remember how it feels when you see them walking up to you. Now imagine having that feeling multiple times a day, except you don't even know them well enough to know what tricks work to get rid of them.
I've had a handful of guys protest that isn't the same, because what they're doing is flattering. I know that's part of most guys' intent, but: I don't feel flattered, and neither do plenty of other women. Why? Because when it happens that often, you realize how uneventful it is for one human being to find another physically attractive. Think of the ugliest person you know and there's hundreds of people who would find them attractive. It isn't anything special or unique or meaningful, and when I hear it I think, okay, that's a nice thing to say I guess, but I feel... bored -- and not in a haughty, unimpressed way, just in a complete lack of response sort of way. It doesn't seem that men have women approach them to call them attractive all that often even if everyone who sees them thinks so, so to a lot of guys it would be an eventful, flattering thing and they just look at it through the lens of how they would feel -- which is natural so I don't blame them, I'm just saying consider that doesn't mean a woman would feel the same way.
And to be honest, while I don't hold it against anyone, I find it baffling and sometimes insulting when a guy wants my phone number when he doesn't even know me. It makes me feel shitty, really, to have someone approach me like my important characteristics, the things I feel make me who I actually am, are irrelevant. I won't go so far as to say "dehumanized" because that's too weighty a connotation, but it's some shadow of it -- like I may as well not even be there mentally or emotionally and that guy would still be coming up to me, wanting what he's wanting. It makes me feel like "I" -- whatever part of me does all the thinking -- don't have any place there, and that whoever or whatever the guy is talking to, it isn't me but some shell he saw and he liked. I haven't felt that way about nice strangers who actually engage me in conversation because there's some obvious genuine shared interest -- like it's clear from the conversation he's actually familiar with, say, something I'm carrying and he's not just faking it. But when a guy is trying to ask me out after three sentences I just feel dead inside, even when he's nice about it.
In short, you can intend for someone to feel a certain way and intentions mean you're not a jerk, but it doesn't mean they actually feel the way you want.
So that's why I wish you wouldn't do it at all. When I'm at the bus stop, I am not looking for a date. I'm looking to ride the bus. If I wanted a date I would go somewhere conducive to finding one, and I don't like feeling I'm up for auction whether I like it or not just because I left the house. Everyone gives up something when they go out in public, some small degree of privacy, but realistically speaking, few people can actually stay home all of the time. No one goes to the bus stop because they want to be there, they go because they HAVE to be there; the women who are there are captive, basically, and I just really hate the idea that it should be reasonable to be hit on there because it's to say that all those women have no right to be left alone. The worst and most frequent encounters I've had have been at bus stops and subway lines. I quit going to an internship at the state capitol because I literally could not wait for the bus afterward without being hit on, day after day, without fail. Granted the guys there would keep hassling me even once I refused to give them my number, but still: I hated going to an internship I should have loved because it's considered fair game to approach women on public transit. What was I supposed to do? I couldn't leave because I had to wait for the bus to get home.
And let me tell you, even when a guy is nice about it, it's still very awkward to have to keep sitting there until the bus comes, or until it's your stop -- and too many guys will try to keep talking at that point just to smooth over the awkwardness, when all I wanted was to be left alone in the first place. I'll be trying to read or get something done but they're not thinking about that; they're thinking about how nervous they are, and they babble and keep distracting me and I have to keep giving short but polite acknowledgements because I don't want them to feel worse than they already do. Meanwhile I'm hating that, without my having any say in it, it's my social lot in life to be something guys approach AND the source of their consolation when they can't have me -- not just because I don't like making people feel bad, but because often enough I get verbally abused if I don't fulfill those functions. This happens to women, over and over, every day: she's minding her own business, guy approaches her of his own volition, guy is shot down, guy goes off on her like she came up to him and wronged him. It was he, and no one else, who put himself in that situation. But she has to pay for not wanting him.
I can't say that's the case for all women, but for me, that shitty feeling I get from being approached lingers for maybe an hour -- all day if the guy is an asshole, but, yeah. The thing is, I get approached at least two or three times a day, so you see how the math works out. I used to go to parks and coffee shops and stuff to write, but I had to stop doing that because I kept being intruded upon by men approaching me -- and after it happens a few times I just get too distracted by feeling shitty, and then I start feeling anxiety every time a guy walks near me because he might start talking to me, so I can't focus on getting anything done.
I can't tell you what you should do, but I can say I don't think it's great that men mostly get to have separate places to go to when they're actively looking for a date, but women are considered to be always open. I'm not ruling out the serendipitous you-get-to-talking-and-hey-you-have-stuff-in-common-and-arrange-a-date scenario, but I can count on one hand how many times that was even what was going on -- among literally thousands of times I've been approached. You might ask yourself why is it not sufficient to get dates from people you can reasonably assume to be looking for a date? If it's some sort of what'll happen if I let this one get away feeling, well... I guess I don't think that holds up to logic and I'd start there, but you may feel differently. If you don't feel like a bar/club/online-dating person, then I sympathize because I'm not either -- but I'd suggest you're thinking too narrowly, and how you'd go about finding someone would depend on your specific interests and hobbies and whatnot; it's basically about putting yourself in a situation where those serendipitous conversations are more likely to happen.
Anyway, I hope this has been helpful in some way, and I hope something works out for you.
posted by Nattie at 3:37 AM on September 19, 2010 [17 favorites]
The best place you can meet women at is where women go to meet guys (not the subway).
Really, go to a club, or any kind of social place, you'll have better chances.
And believe me. Attractive women get that shit all.the.fucking.time. I happen to have light, pretty eyes (nothing orgasmic, but there you are) and tan skin. I cannot go anywhere without some man making comments about them and how they contrast my skin, or how exotic I look, etc. What's more annoying is that I have to pretend to be flattered, because it's good manners, right? Also, if you re a maniac, I don't want to set you off.
Realize that all of those in the subway girls are simply going somewhere, many of them are taken, interested in someone else, or happy alone. If they like you, they will make it very, very clear they want to get to know you. Please, don't approach them without being positive they will like your attention.
FWIW my husband never mentioned my being pretty until we were together for a while (which I loved) and was always nonchalant about it (and pretty disgusted when other men stared, not knowing that when he's around it's nowhere nearly as bad as it is when he's not)
posted by Tarumba at 4:49 AM on September 19, 2010
Really, go to a club, or any kind of social place, you'll have better chances.
And believe me. Attractive women get that shit all.the.fucking.time. I happen to have light, pretty eyes (nothing orgasmic, but there you are) and tan skin. I cannot go anywhere without some man making comments about them and how they contrast my skin, or how exotic I look, etc. What's more annoying is that I have to pretend to be flattered, because it's good manners, right? Also, if you re a maniac, I don't want to set you off.
Realize that all of those in the subway girls are simply going somewhere, many of them are taken, interested in someone else, or happy alone. If they like you, they will make it very, very clear they want to get to know you. Please, don't approach them without being positive they will like your attention.
FWIW my husband never mentioned my being pretty until we were together for a while (which I loved) and was always nonchalant about it (and pretty disgusted when other men stared, not knowing that when he's around it's nowhere nearly as bad as it is when he's not)
posted by Tarumba at 4:49 AM on September 19, 2010
Don't... ask for her number. It's OK to give her yours (it is not OK to ask for her phone, don't be a slacker, if you plan on handing your number out a lot then carry business cards or one of those pocket memo books). Giving your number to someone is always a risk and as the approacher, you take the risk.
Don't... open with asking for directions or other factual non-conversation questions, unless you really need to know. No one nice can say "I don't feel like talking" to "how many more stops until ___?" This is bait-and-switch, and no one likes that.
Don't... follow her off at her stop. This is way too much investment for thinking a stranger was pretty. It's like taking someone to Paris on the first date... just creepy! (Also, it kind of suggests that you have no job/friends waiting/any kind of time commitment. Which, sorry, says loser.)
Don't... have any expectations. I don't mind a quick chat with strangers, but I'm as willing to talk to friendly-old-person or large-group-of-people as I am to attractive-flirty-single, which says a lot about what I'm looking for.
posted by anaelith at 5:53 AM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Don't... open with asking for directions or other factual non-conversation questions, unless you really need to know. No one nice can say "I don't feel like talking" to "how many more stops until ___?" This is bait-and-switch, and no one likes that.
Don't... follow her off at her stop. This is way too much investment for thinking a stranger was pretty. It's like taking someone to Paris on the first date... just creepy! (Also, it kind of suggests that you have no job/friends waiting/any kind of time commitment. Which, sorry, says loser.)
Don't... have any expectations. I don't mind a quick chat with strangers, but I'm as willing to talk to friendly-old-person or large-group-of-people as I am to attractive-flirty-single, which says a lot about what I'm looking for.
posted by anaelith at 5:53 AM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
People differ. I'm a New Yorker, and a woman, and for me the basic rule is - GIVE ME AN EASY ESCAPE. Don't say something unless you're about to leave the train, or I am. Don't follow me. Only speak up if we've exchanged really obvious looks and smiles already.
Be totally polite, stay out of my personal space, don't lean forward too much. Don't compliment me on my body, because no matter how you put it, I've heard it from some sleazeball recently and have that association. If you're coming up to me to say anything, I promise I know you think I'm hot already.
My most recent good experience was actually when walking down the street. I was checking out this hot guy, and he was checking me out in return. I smiled at him first, he smiled back, I smiled back again, and I could see the moment when it clicked in his head that I was okay with interacting. He came up to me and asked if I do rock climbing (going off my huge overstuffed knapsack, maybe?), and I said no, but I do bike (he was walking his bike down the street). In the end: I got his number, and he did not follow me when I decided to walk away.
What did he do right in this scenario? He waited for real body language confirmation from me before approaching. He stayed out of my wingspan when talking. He didn't comment on my body at all. He talked about our shared interests. When he asked for my number and I said I'd rather take his, he went along with it without any objection. He let me walk away freely without any objection or following.
posted by Eshkol at 6:04 AM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Be totally polite, stay out of my personal space, don't lean forward too much. Don't compliment me on my body, because no matter how you put it, I've heard it from some sleazeball recently and have that association. If you're coming up to me to say anything, I promise I know you think I'm hot already.
My most recent good experience was actually when walking down the street. I was checking out this hot guy, and he was checking me out in return. I smiled at him first, he smiled back, I smiled back again, and I could see the moment when it clicked in his head that I was okay with interacting. He came up to me and asked if I do rock climbing (going off my huge overstuffed knapsack, maybe?), and I said no, but I do bike (he was walking his bike down the street). In the end: I got his number, and he did not follow me when I decided to walk away.
What did he do right in this scenario? He waited for real body language confirmation from me before approaching. He stayed out of my wingspan when talking. He didn't comment on my body at all. He talked about our shared interests. When he asked for my number and I said I'd rather take his, he went along with it without any objection. He let me walk away freely without any objection or following.
posted by Eshkol at 6:04 AM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
One interesting variable might be time of day: on the way to work vs. coming home from a long day at work vs. coming home from a short day at work vs. going out for the night vs. going back to Brooklyn after a night in Manhattan, etc.
Whatever you decide to do, OP, commute times should be absolutely off limits. Unless it's a case of seeing the same cute girl every morning/evening and deciding to get up the nerve to say hi. In general, bad idea to bother someone during their commute.
If you're approaching women out of the blue, do it on a weekend.
posted by Sara C. at 7:34 AM on September 19, 2010
Whatever you decide to do, OP, commute times should be absolutely off limits. Unless it's a case of seeing the same cute girl every morning/evening and deciding to get up the nerve to say hi. In general, bad idea to bother someone during their commute.
If you're approaching women out of the blue, do it on a weekend.
posted by Sara C. at 7:34 AM on September 19, 2010
To throw some anecdotal evidence out there, as a tourist last winter I got a number on a late-night downtown train (~11pm) from a friendly grad student. I moved here about a month ago, and for the first two weeks I was 18 streets from work, so I sometimes rode the subway to/from, and in that time got one number, one friendly conversation, and one not-so-great conversation where she was probably uninterested, and possibly annoyed.
I don't know what city you just moved to, or where you lived before that.
But there is a very strong possibility that you are breaking a million social rules of your new city by doing this, and that it's not something you want to continue doing regularly if you plan on ever considering yourself a local. The fact that you're approaching multiple women during a couple weeks of infrequent subway use, and that you think this is, like, a normal way to meet women in the city, is borderline creepy. If you're a tourist, it's sort of OK because it's acknowledged that you don't know the rules. But now that you live here? No.
Also, if you live in New York, you should know that sexual harassment on public transit is a crime which, more and more, is being taken seriously by the authorities. If for some reason you continue to regularly approach women for sex on the subway, you should be really really careful not to do ANYTHING which could get you in trouble with the police.
posted by Sara C. at 7:45 AM on September 19, 2010
I don't know what city you just moved to, or where you lived before that.
But there is a very strong possibility that you are breaking a million social rules of your new city by doing this, and that it's not something you want to continue doing regularly if you plan on ever considering yourself a local. The fact that you're approaching multiple women during a couple weeks of infrequent subway use, and that you think this is, like, a normal way to meet women in the city, is borderline creepy. If you're a tourist, it's sort of OK because it's acknowledged that you don't know the rules. But now that you live here? No.
Also, if you live in New York, you should know that sexual harassment on public transit is a crime which, more and more, is being taken seriously by the authorities. If for some reason you continue to regularly approach women for sex on the subway, you should be really really careful not to do ANYTHING which could get you in trouble with the police.
posted by Sara C. at 7:45 AM on September 19, 2010
Commute times are fine -- what if that's the only time you'll ever see that person? Take the risk if you'd like, OP.
It's as someone said upthread, either take the risk or wonder if you should.
I say this because the way my boyfriend and I met worked out, and it would probably not have worked out had we met under different circumstances. Unusual situations can work.
I'm not a dater. I don't go to conventional 'places where women go to meet guys' like someone mentioned. There are lots of women like me, and men too, who don't have interest in bars, clubs, certain places where people hook up.
So if you are one of those guys, maybe taking risks in meeting women in unusual places/situations is the right approach.
posted by cmgonzalez at 8:17 AM on September 19, 2010
It's as someone said upthread, either take the risk or wonder if you should.
I say this because the way my boyfriend and I met worked out, and it would probably not have worked out had we met under different circumstances. Unusual situations can work.
I'm not a dater. I don't go to conventional 'places where women go to meet guys' like someone mentioned. There are lots of women like me, and men too, who don't have interest in bars, clubs, certain places where people hook up.
So if you are one of those guys, maybe taking risks in meeting women in unusual places/situations is the right approach.
posted by cmgonzalez at 8:17 AM on September 19, 2010
I am a lifelong NYCer with plenty of lady-friends and I have never, ever heard one of them mention that they would like to be approached on the train. Why? Because the hollerin' never stops. Seriously. I have not dated a single girl who has not, at least once, come home despondent because holy shit dudes would not leave her alone. Just the other day my girlfriend got an eyeful of "hey-lookie-here" cock at 2 PM in Downtown Brooklyn. This happens all the time and, honestly, what makes you think that, in their eyes, you will not be potentially another one of these people? Either stick to the mating grounds or, at least, be aware that if you keep trying to talk with women on the train you will be making most of them very, very uncomfortable.
posted by griphus at 10:06 AM on September 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by griphus at 10:06 AM on September 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
Also: everything Sara C. says is to the letter what I hear from pretty much all of said lady-friends.
posted by griphus at 10:08 AM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by griphus at 10:08 AM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Nthing everyone who says that this is a bad idea. I've been approached on the train (while wearing headphones, even--guess that wasn't enough of a cue that I didn't want to have a conversation with a stranger) and it was horribly embarrassing. It was innocuous enough, he asked me if I liked punk music, and me, bewildered at the random question by someone who interrupted my music listening, said yes (even though I really don't know much about it) and he asked what my favorite band was. I came up with an answer and then quickly put my headphones back on, ignoring him. The part that made it embarrassing was that there was a full car of witnesses to this failed interaction, and I felt put on the spot and didn't like that now I had to sit there for another 6 stops with this guy and everyone who just saw this weird interaction. It bothered me a lot at the time, and now whenever I think about it.
So unless you want girls to associate such embarrassing situations with you, don't hit on them on the train. There needs to be a quick escape route for all parties involved.
posted by Fuego at 10:40 AM on September 19, 2010
So unless you want girls to associate such embarrassing situations with you, don't hit on them on the train. There needs to be a quick escape route for all parties involved.
posted by Fuego at 10:40 AM on September 19, 2010
OP I think you should go for it....I have been approached (yes I am also male) and I have approached plenty of times in the train. I however wait for when they make it very clear it is ok to go ahead and do so. As you can see from the posts written here, responses vary wildly from person to person. I have met very friendly people and people that were not friendly at all. The best approach is to try to make a conversation if you guys have the chemistry to keep on randomly talking then you should be fine to eventually get the number. Some will not appreciate it at all and will be mortified, realize that has to do more with THEM than with you, in the other hand sometimes you'll make someone's day even if they end up rejecting you.
Go for it, but dont make it your sole means of meeting woman.
posted by The1andonly at 10:52 AM on September 19, 2010
Go for it, but dont make it your sole means of meeting woman.
posted by The1andonly at 10:52 AM on September 19, 2010
There are socially accepted times and places (weekends, evenings, bars, concerts in the park to approach strangers to get numbers. New York City public transportation is not a socially acceptable place to start flirty conversations with strangers. In my opinion, striking up a conversation with a woman on the subway reeks of desperation. I have seen men approach women often when I ride the subway and I have never seen any result but an angry woman. If you don't have any problems breaking social norms and are ok with a bunch of strangers on the train judging you as a creepster then go for it, but if you are actually interested in getting a date from an attractive woman you might want to try approaching her in a different situation.
Women are probably looking at you on the subway because that's what some people do on the subway: look at other people. It doesn't mean anything. And as for you, if you can't think of anything to say to a pretty woman, don't talk to her. You only want to talk to her because you want to have sex with her, and she'll know that. Raw physical attractiveness is basically meaningless and is not indicative of someone who you could or would want to date. When you start a forced conversation based only on the fact that you want to meet the person, it is exactly like you walk up to them and say "hey, I don't care about you as a person, your personality or whether you are looking for a date, or nothing like that, I want to fuck you." No matter what you come up to say, that is what you are saying, and everyone on the train knows it. Get it out of your head that attractiveness is a reason to talk to a person.
Did I mention asking someone for a phone number on the train reeks of desperation. Go to gatherings of like-minded people, they're not hard to find in NYC. A subway is not a place of like minded people, it is public transportation.
posted by fuq at 11:05 AM on September 19, 2010 [7 favorites]
Women are probably looking at you on the subway because that's what some people do on the subway: look at other people. It doesn't mean anything. And as for you, if you can't think of anything to say to a pretty woman, don't talk to her. You only want to talk to her because you want to have sex with her, and she'll know that. Raw physical attractiveness is basically meaningless and is not indicative of someone who you could or would want to date. When you start a forced conversation based only on the fact that you want to meet the person, it is exactly like you walk up to them and say "hey, I don't care about you as a person, your personality or whether you are looking for a date, or nothing like that, I want to fuck you." No matter what you come up to say, that is what you are saying, and everyone on the train knows it. Get it out of your head that attractiveness is a reason to talk to a person.
Did I mention asking someone for a phone number on the train reeks of desperation. Go to gatherings of like-minded people, they're not hard to find in NYC. A subway is not a place of like minded people, it is public transportation.
posted by fuq at 11:05 AM on September 19, 2010 [7 favorites]
I hate to do this but:
Some Just about all will not appreciate it at all and will be mortified, realize that has to do more with THEM CONSTANT AND UNRELENTING HARASSMENT BY MEN than with you...
posted by griphus at 12:03 PM on September 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by griphus at 12:03 PM on September 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
I was born and raised an attractive New Yorker, and I don't want to be "approached" on the subway. I can certainly be talked to -- I kind of love giving directions. You can even try a legitimate attempt at legitimate conversation ("Oh I just finished that book, have you gotten to the chapter about such-and-such yet?" as opposed to "Watcha reading?"). But this, where a mutual kvetch about the subway results in "Hi, my name is Bill" pretty much gave me a heart attack. It's very rare that I will acknowledge that others even exist on the subway/street -- I certainly don't want to know their names. Scary.
Well maybe to you but I know 3 married couples who met exactly this way (2 of the women and one of the guys are my friends). In every case they saw each other on the street or in a store, were visibly checking each other out and the man approached and politely and formally introduced himself by name and asked her out. He dropped enough details that she could check him out if she wanted (offered business card, stated place of work), offered his contact info, proposed a double date or similarly non threatening event and left. He didn't try to be witty or awesome or impress her; simply expressed his identity and interest and left before it could get awkward.
This kind of contact is a million miles away from the "sketchy dude holler" described above, I'm a woman who gets hit on every day by sketchy dudes so I know that. The OP wanted to hear how to take flirty looks and body language to the next level and as far as I'm concerned this is the only polite way to do it. I don't want to have a long conversation with a total stranger, especially drunk guys in bars (I have never met a guy in a bar). But I would consider meeting an attractive, mannerly adult, who asked nicely and who gave me time to check his bona fides, for coffee some time.
posted by fshgrl at 2:43 PM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well maybe to you but I know 3 married couples who met exactly this way (2 of the women and one of the guys are my friends). In every case they saw each other on the street or in a store, were visibly checking each other out and the man approached and politely and formally introduced himself by name and asked her out. He dropped enough details that she could check him out if she wanted (offered business card, stated place of work), offered his contact info, proposed a double date or similarly non threatening event and left. He didn't try to be witty or awesome or impress her; simply expressed his identity and interest and left before it could get awkward.
This kind of contact is a million miles away from the "sketchy dude holler" described above, I'm a woman who gets hit on every day by sketchy dudes so I know that. The OP wanted to hear how to take flirty looks and body language to the next level and as far as I'm concerned this is the only polite way to do it. I don't want to have a long conversation with a total stranger, especially drunk guys in bars (I have never met a guy in a bar). But I would consider meeting an attractive, mannerly adult, who asked nicely and who gave me time to check his bona fides, for coffee some time.
posted by fshgrl at 2:43 PM on September 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
There's a difference between "How do I approach women on the train" and "I had THIS particular situation happen to me, how should I handle it". I think the OP was asking about #2, but phrased it wrong, and now it's become men saying there's nothing wrong with it and women once again explaining how it makes them feel uncomfortable and men once again saying that it shouldn't make women feel uncomfortable and only uptight snotty bitches will get upset and not take the compliment if you ask them for their number in a crowded public transit conveyance.
I mean, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM, you're JUST ASKING, they can say no, amirite??!
There are, no doubt, one off situations where things just work right and it's okay. I am pretty sure that most of the women here saying 'Don't do it' don't mean "If the stars totally align and it's some kind of serendipitious situation you should still never talk to a woman," it's women saying 'Don't think you're gonna start riding the 6 train and pick up mad women by your witty repartee, most of us are just going to figure out how to get off at the next stop and wait for the next train no matter how tired or late we are'. The fact that most of you can't parse this floors me, but now I know that you are the guys who do not take hints and who follow me out of the subway and who try to strike up a conversation AT THE ATM ("Hey, you're taking out money, are you going somewhere?" Yes, I took out my phone and dialed 911 at that one).
There are so many places to meet women who actually, actively want to meet and talk to men I do not understand why the subway, bastion of hell such as it is, would be some place you would like to do it. Take out a personal. Go to a bar. Leave us the fuck alone on the train.
posted by micawber at 5:11 PM on September 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
I mean, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM, you're JUST ASKING, they can say no, amirite??!
There are, no doubt, one off situations where things just work right and it's okay. I am pretty sure that most of the women here saying 'Don't do it' don't mean "If the stars totally align and it's some kind of serendipitious situation you should still never talk to a woman," it's women saying 'Don't think you're gonna start riding the 6 train and pick up mad women by your witty repartee, most of us are just going to figure out how to get off at the next stop and wait for the next train no matter how tired or late we are'. The fact that most of you can't parse this floors me, but now I know that you are the guys who do not take hints and who follow me out of the subway and who try to strike up a conversation AT THE ATM ("Hey, you're taking out money, are you going somewhere?" Yes, I took out my phone and dialed 911 at that one).
There are so many places to meet women who actually, actively want to meet and talk to men I do not understand why the subway, bastion of hell such as it is, would be some place you would like to do it. Take out a personal. Go to a bar. Leave us the fuck alone on the train.
posted by micawber at 5:11 PM on September 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
My answer: as a rule, you shouldn't be asking *strangers* for dates or numbers. Because that's weird. But there is nothing wrong with doing the social dance trying to make someone's acquaintance. As outlined above- catching a glance, the returned smile, the "oh, pardon me, my lacrosse stick is always poking people in the eye," and then continuing the conversation if the other person is amenable. Once the person isn't a stranger and is clearly interested in the back and forth of continued social interaction, introdicing oneself and trading numbers or facebooks or whatever is no big deal.
That is a long way away from just bothering hot girls on the street.
Getting bothered in public is part and parcel of living in a society. Not everyone has the same comfort for social interactions with strangers. I get bothered all the time, and sometimes it makes me crazy. But that's my problem, not theirs. We all control how our interactions affect us. Getting mad only harms us, not those who bother us.
We live in a free society, and part of that freedom is being able to be rude. The price of that freedom is having to blow off rude people. Rudeness, cluelessness and being generally bothersome is not equal to harassment.
posted by gjc at 6:06 AM on September 20, 2010
That is a long way away from just bothering hot girls on the street.
To throw some anecdotal evidence out there, as a tourist last winter I got a number on a late-night downtown train (~11pm) from a friendly grad student. I moved here about a month ago, and for the first two weeks I was 18 streets from work, so I sometimes rode the subway to/from, and in that time got one number, one friendly conversation, and one not-so-great conversation where she was probably uninterested, and possibly annoyed.Having friendly conversations and maybe getting a number is not "approaching women for sex".
I don't know what city you just moved to, or where you lived before that.
But there is a very strong possibility that you are breaking a million social rules of your new city by doing this, and that it's not something you want to continue doing regularly if you plan on ever considering yourself a local. The fact that you're approaching multiple women during a couple weeks of infrequent subway use, and that you think this is, like, a normal way to meet women in the city, is borderline creepy. If you're a tourist, it's sort of OK because it's acknowledged that you don't know the rules. But now that you live here? No.
Also, if you live in New York, you should know that sexual harassment on public transit is a crime which, more and more, is being taken seriously by the authorities. If for some reason you continue to regularly approach women for sex on the subway, you should be really really careful not to do ANYTHING which could get you in trouble with the police.
Getting bothered in public is part and parcel of living in a society. Not everyone has the same comfort for social interactions with strangers. I get bothered all the time, and sometimes it makes me crazy. But that's my problem, not theirs. We all control how our interactions affect us. Getting mad only harms us, not those who bother us.
We live in a free society, and part of that freedom is being able to be rude. The price of that freedom is having to blow off rude people. Rudeness, cluelessness and being generally bothersome is not equal to harassment.
posted by gjc at 6:06 AM on September 20, 2010
Having friendly conversations and maybe getting a number is not "approaching women for sex".
The reason I used that particular phrase is that he followed up his n00btastic recommendation with a paragraph about how some coworker of his does this all the time and, chances are, the woman will take you home and shag you right then and there.
Ummmmmm, no.
If one is going to take the risk of doing something like this, one should avoid turning it into some kind of Penthouse Forum fantasy wherein you proposition a woman for sex on the subway expecting her to put out right then and there. That's a great way to get arrested (or maybe just slapped). It's not a great way to meet women. It's the exact opposite of the attitude one should have about this sort of thing.
posted by Sara C. at 7:56 AM on September 20, 2010
The reason I used that particular phrase is that he followed up his n00btastic recommendation with a paragraph about how some coworker of his does this all the time and, chances are, the woman will take you home and shag you right then and there.
Ummmmmm, no.
If one is going to take the risk of doing something like this, one should avoid turning it into some kind of Penthouse Forum fantasy wherein you proposition a woman for sex on the subway expecting her to put out right then and there. That's a great way to get arrested (or maybe just slapped). It's not a great way to meet women. It's the exact opposite of the attitude one should have about this sort of thing.
posted by Sara C. at 7:56 AM on September 20, 2010
posted by sunshinesky at 9:04 PM on September 24, 2010
Earlier today, my friend randomly expressed how much she hates it when guys come up to her and talk to her when she's riding the train. She said it happens to her all the time, she doesn't want to talk on the train, and she has a boyfriend. It reminded me of reading this thread so I made a note of it here.
posted by fuq at 7:21 PM on October 17, 2010
posted by fuq at 7:21 PM on October 17, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Umm, I wouldn't recommend asking if her pants were made of mirrors.
posted by Everydayville at 2:49 PM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]