Translation for Original Language?
November 24, 2007 10:21 AM Subscribe
How should I go about building a language <> English dictionary/translator, that can be used by one or two people via a computer, when the language is still a work-in-progress?
My roommate and I have been writing stories together for a decade now. In the past several years, we have also endeavored to create a whole new language for a set of our characters. Language has always fascinated me, so I have tried to incorporate things like tenses and conjugation into the mix, instead of simply relying on word transposition.
The language itself has grown enough, in fits and starts, that searching word-by-word in the GoogleDoc that we transported our original Excel spreadsheet to is becoming tedious. I've been toying with the idea on creating a translator for it, to make in-story conversations flow quicker.
House Maerdyn had a wonderful translator, for example, that has since disappeared from their webpage. I haven't found anything as comprehensive as that since.
What I'm looking for is a web-or-network based solution that we can use to build/translate the language... that isn't *too* complicated to work with. And by work with, I mean create, not use. I'm willing to put in some skullsweat with tutorials and resources, but I have little experience with databases, and no programing knowledge whatsoever.
Suggestions? Any feedback from other language-lovers, world-builders, etc. is greatly appreciated!
My roommate and I have been writing stories together for a decade now. In the past several years, we have also endeavored to create a whole new language for a set of our characters. Language has always fascinated me, so I have tried to incorporate things like tenses and conjugation into the mix, instead of simply relying on word transposition.
The language itself has grown enough, in fits and starts, that searching word-by-word in the GoogleDoc that we transported our original Excel spreadsheet to is becoming tedious. I've been toying with the idea on creating a translator for it, to make in-story conversations flow quicker.
House Maerdyn had a wonderful translator, for example, that has since disappeared from their webpage. I haven't found anything as comprehensive as that since.
What I'm looking for is a web-or-network based solution that we can use to build/translate the language... that isn't *too* complicated to work with. And by work with, I mean create, not use. I'm willing to put in some skullsweat with tutorials and resources, but I have little experience with databases, and no programing knowledge whatsoever.
Suggestions? Any feedback from other language-lovers, world-builders, etc. is greatly appreciated!
This is an extremely hefty thing you are attempting to do. What I would recommend is finding a way to develop the language naturally, so that the product of your interaction is driving the definition and structure of the language, rather than the translator.
What I mean is, use the language enough so that the translator is not necessary, but more of a documented set of rules and forms based on the creations that you both agree on*. That way you are not consulting the translator for the answers (and then constantly having to change and update it as you both disagree and/or change your mind).
I know it sounds like I'm saying "ditch the translator idea", but I think it might be more successful and less headachy if you enjoy letting the language build complexity on its own, rather than trying to pin it down as it's rapidly evolving—and then continue with translation/dictionary at a later time, when it'll be easy and quick (because you have all the answers in your head). Languages, even made up ones, tend to take on lives of their own, and their speakers change and break the rules, no matter how much they want to stick to 'em—even the rules they made up themselves.
*And by "agree on", I mean "tend to use more or less consistently".
posted by iamkimiam at 11:55 AM on November 24, 2007
What I mean is, use the language enough so that the translator is not necessary, but more of a documented set of rules and forms based on the creations that you both agree on*. That way you are not consulting the translator for the answers (and then constantly having to change and update it as you both disagree and/or change your mind).
I know it sounds like I'm saying "ditch the translator idea", but I think it might be more successful and less headachy if you enjoy letting the language build complexity on its own, rather than trying to pin it down as it's rapidly evolving—and then continue with translation/dictionary at a later time, when it'll be easy and quick (because you have all the answers in your head). Languages, even made up ones, tend to take on lives of their own, and their speakers change and break the rules, no matter how much they want to stick to 'em—even the rules they made up themselves.
*And by "agree on", I mean "tend to use more or less consistently".
posted by iamkimiam at 11:55 AM on November 24, 2007
Also, if the syntax of the language is modeled after English, then a huge portion of the work is done for you, as you can consult already-written programs and books for the Phrase Structure Rules, tree models, parsing and movement, etc. Same is true for morphology (eg. Case markings, such as tense, number (plurality), aspect, etc.).
Pick up an introductory linguistics book to get a more solid idea of the elements of language and how they work together (syntax, semantics, phonetics, morphology). Then you will know the terms for and the type of content you are programming. Then a basic programming book...which is the point where my advice ends and my head explodes.
Good luck with this! The project sounds super cool and fascinating. I hope you continue with it and track the progress somewhere, because that is interesting in of itself.
posted by iamkimiam at 12:04 PM on November 24, 2007
Pick up an introductory linguistics book to get a more solid idea of the elements of language and how they work together (syntax, semantics, phonetics, morphology). Then you will know the terms for and the type of content you are programming. Then a basic programming book...which is the point where my advice ends and my head explodes.
Good luck with this! The project sounds super cool and fascinating. I hope you continue with it and track the progress somewhere, because that is interesting in of itself.
posted by iamkimiam at 12:04 PM on November 24, 2007
I dunno if this is helpful, but if you're interested in seeing how someone else did this, you could study the history of the development of the Klingon language, which has reached the point where there are apparently a lot of people who can actually speak it.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 1:09 PM on November 24, 2007
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 1:09 PM on November 24, 2007
Response by poster: deadmessenger: I had lost the link for LangMaker, so thank you and Mrs. Messenger for that! The other link looks fantastic as well.
iamkimiam: The language is evolving around a few base rules that we built years ago - structures for tense and plurality and conjugations to start with, as this language is supposed to be somewhat simplistic, given that (based on the continuing story) it was the first tongue of the people in the world we're building. The rest is coming naturally through conversation:
"Oh, what's the bloody word for beauty? We don't have one? Well, let's see what we've got... ila. Okay, now lets bust out all of the forms of ila we'll need for later..."
Simplistic, I know, but I didn't want to challenge myself TOO much in the beginning. My next language, I hope, will be more robust - as soon as I 'finish' this one to the point where we can converse fluently.
Remembering is the hard part, which is why we're looking for a translating apparatus in the first place - sometimes we move onto another piece of the story, and the budding lexicon will lie fallow for months... and so will our memories.
You've give me a lot to think about though, thanks!
SCDB: I had completely forgotten about Klingon! My Mom had one of the first runnings of dictionaries way back when... I have fond memories of us all sitting around, trying to parse out vulgarities. We managed "eat shit and die" though I doubt its anything close to proper.
In other words, VERY helpful to be reminded that someone else did this before me, with results that I can hold in my hands.. and hopefully a working history I can research!
posted by Adelwolf at 6:41 PM on November 24, 2007
iamkimiam: The language is evolving around a few base rules that we built years ago - structures for tense and plurality and conjugations to start with, as this language is supposed to be somewhat simplistic, given that (based on the continuing story) it was the first tongue of the people in the world we're building. The rest is coming naturally through conversation:
"Oh, what's the bloody word for beauty? We don't have one? Well, let's see what we've got... ila. Okay, now lets bust out all of the forms of ila we'll need for later..."
Simplistic, I know, but I didn't want to challenge myself TOO much in the beginning. My next language, I hope, will be more robust - as soon as I 'finish' this one to the point where we can converse fluently.
Remembering is the hard part, which is why we're looking for a translating apparatus in the first place - sometimes we move onto another piece of the story, and the budding lexicon will lie fallow for months... and so will our memories.
You've give me a lot to think about though, thanks!
SCDB: I had completely forgotten about Klingon! My Mom had one of the first runnings of dictionaries way back when... I have fond memories of us all sitting around, trying to parse out vulgarities. We managed "eat shit and die" though I doubt its anything close to proper.
In other words, VERY helpful to be reminded that someone else did this before me, with results that I can hold in my hands.. and hopefully a working history I can research!
posted by Adelwolf at 6:41 PM on November 24, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by deadmessenger at 11:09 AM on November 24, 2007