How do I funny?
October 8, 2023 10:12 PM Subscribe
I want to write humor. I am trying. Where can I learn?
After a lot of playing D&D online, reading, and not doing much else, I find any time I try to write, I want to make it funny. Mainly when trying to write fantasy fiction, but even daily accounts make me want to be Dave Barry. I want to write funny stuff!
I am on several fiction groups and I put my stuff out there, but it gets very few views or comments, so I don't know if it's just bad overall, or if the majority of people on the site (who seem to take themselves and their fandoms very seriously) just don't like it, or if it's just... not funny. I'll be fine with the first two, but how can I learn to be funny? any suggestions for someone who wants to write humorous fantasty/sci fi fiction in the line of Pratchett, Holt, Adams, Asprin, Vernon, Valente, Jones? Mostly I'm looking for communities that would be more aligned to provide feedback...
Failing that, is there a site or community for all the dorky dadjokes writers for local newspapers, or just genral humorous fiction? Donald Westlake's "Dortmunder" series are a big inspiration for me, for example. Note I'm not looking for stories to buy and read-- I have enough of those! But more looking for a community or group that would be useful for getting feedback and learning to polish the craft.
Thanks in advance!
After a lot of playing D&D online, reading, and not doing much else, I find any time I try to write, I want to make it funny. Mainly when trying to write fantasy fiction, but even daily accounts make me want to be Dave Barry. I want to write funny stuff!
I am on several fiction groups and I put my stuff out there, but it gets very few views or comments, so I don't know if it's just bad overall, or if the majority of people on the site (who seem to take themselves and their fandoms very seriously) just don't like it, or if it's just... not funny. I'll be fine with the first two, but how can I learn to be funny? any suggestions for someone who wants to write humorous fantasty/sci fi fiction in the line of Pratchett, Holt, Adams, Asprin, Vernon, Valente, Jones? Mostly I'm looking for communities that would be more aligned to provide feedback...
Failing that, is there a site or community for all the dorky dadjokes writers for local newspapers, or just genral humorous fiction? Donald Westlake's "Dortmunder" series are a big inspiration for me, for example. Note I'm not looking for stories to buy and read-- I have enough of those! But more looking for a community or group that would be useful for getting feedback and learning to polish the craft.
Thanks in advance!
It might be informative to watch John Hodgman and John Cleese [85m] thrashing about on 'creativity'. They cite Arthur Koestler's The Act of Creation, which has a chapter investigating humour and Henri Bergson's book about laughter Le Rire. Essai sur la signification du comique. Similar Cleese interview [70m] with NL subtitles. I know you intend to write your funny but you could try presenting it at open mic stand-up events: they'll give you feedback!
posted by BobTheScientist at 1:04 AM on October 9, 2023
posted by BobTheScientist at 1:04 AM on October 9, 2023
I'm assuming you know how to write, you're just having difficulty making it funny.
To borrow from Douglas Adams' how-to on flying, the quickest way to write comedy is to throw yourself hard into writing drama and utterly, totally fail.
One example of comedy, deconstructed, is the basic joke. A joke consists of a stated premise followed by a twist or double-meaning conclusion (the punch line). The conclusion can be absurd, ironic, or merely unexpected but obvious. The humor comes from the audience's sudden realization of the wasn't-my-first-thought connection between the premise and conclusion, or as I Iike to think of it, 'the Second Right Answer' (hat tip to Roger von Oech)
A MeFi-relevant example: "Socialist Steve is so not-an-ally that when he cleverly admonished Capitalist Chad for not sharing the means of production with the workers, he really 'owned' him." OK, well, that's what the ComedySporz folks would call a 'groaner foul'. The punch line is the double-meaning of 'owned' here.
It's very important that the audience not be asked to work too hard to arrive at the connection; otherwise you end up with a surly note from Dennis Miller advising that you're ripping off his act.
You can expand a basic joke into a situation, a story, or all the way up to world-building.
The original SNL writers used a technique called 'What If...?' to generate sketch ideas (the famous first known example of its use in creating an SNL sketch was 'What if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly?') In 1979, they finally incorporated the technique into the on-camera premise of a sketch.
Read the Wikipedia entry on comedy. Web-search for 'how to write comedy'. Watch the old 'Match Game '7*' reruns and practice anticipating the panel's answers in the regular gameplay rounds untill you can match them or do better. In the A-or-B round gameplay, usually one question will have an obvious funny answer (scoring big if the contestant selects it) and the other may have two, three or many obvious funny answers (which is the kiss of death for the contestant who picks it.) if you find you can regularly match Richard Dawson, the gold standard at the time, you're on your way.
Read animator Chuck Jones' dicussion of how he and his team wrote their features (e.g. use "Yes and..." and avoid "No" when expanding a story). The Road-Runner cartoon famously had a set of rules to constrain the characters yet allowing a near-infinite palette of funny premises and conclusions within those rules.
Play along with the performers on the 'Whose Line Is It Anyway?' TV show. Yes, you'll be awful at first. Observing talent in action and practicing will stretch those brain muscles.
For the past several years, November has been declared national everybody-should-try-to-write-a-novel month. The folks at HumbleBundle.com will likely offer another writing-book bundle next month, probably including a book on comedy writing. These bundles of downloadable no-DRM ebooks valued at several hundred dollars, are offered for dirt cheap, from $1 for a select subset to $18 to $25 for the full bundle. Part of your purchase goes to a charity named in the promotion. The bundle is offered for a 20-day window. I bought the 2021 bundle and found it useful for both writing and comedy. YMMV.
Check out your local community college for improv comedy classes/troupes. If memory serves, major standalone improv troupes offering classes and with branches across the country include ComedySportz, Second City, Upright Citizens Brigade.
(If you're really desperate, just wait until his next divorce and then marry John Cleese. He'll write everything, bounce ideas off you and give you co-writer credit ;-> )
I'll leave you with a memorable quote Faber College's founder Emil Faber never said but should have, 'Comedy is often funny.' Words to live by.
PS: Some D&D freebie writing prompts for you: A dragon who is trying to quit smoking and wears a huge nicotine patch -- the patch sometimes comes unglued, falls off, and fatally engulfs approaching individuals. A knight with child-proof weapons. A wizard whose power ls limited to making configuring things easier. A huge hulking ogre who causes (absurdly out of proportion) terrified reactions in the other players by breaking into their home clothes drawers and mismatching their socks.
posted by zaixfeep at 1:49 AM on October 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
To borrow from Douglas Adams' how-to on flying, the quickest way to write comedy is to throw yourself hard into writing drama and utterly, totally fail.
One example of comedy, deconstructed, is the basic joke. A joke consists of a stated premise followed by a twist or double-meaning conclusion (the punch line). The conclusion can be absurd, ironic, or merely unexpected but obvious. The humor comes from the audience's sudden realization of the wasn't-my-first-thought connection between the premise and conclusion, or as I Iike to think of it, 'the Second Right Answer' (hat tip to Roger von Oech)
A MeFi-relevant example: "Socialist Steve is so not-an-ally that when he cleverly admonished Capitalist Chad for not sharing the means of production with the workers, he really 'owned' him." OK, well, that's what the ComedySporz folks would call a 'groaner foul'. The punch line is the double-meaning of 'owned' here.
It's very important that the audience not be asked to work too hard to arrive at the connection; otherwise you end up with a surly note from Dennis Miller advising that you're ripping off his act.
You can expand a basic joke into a situation, a story, or all the way up to world-building.
The original SNL writers used a technique called 'What If...?' to generate sketch ideas (the famous first known example of its use in creating an SNL sketch was 'What if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly?') In 1979, they finally incorporated the technique into the on-camera premise of a sketch.
Read the Wikipedia entry on comedy. Web-search for 'how to write comedy'. Watch the old 'Match Game '7*' reruns and practice anticipating the panel's answers in the regular gameplay rounds untill you can match them or do better. In the A-or-B round gameplay, usually one question will have an obvious funny answer (scoring big if the contestant selects it) and the other may have two, three or many obvious funny answers (which is the kiss of death for the contestant who picks it.) if you find you can regularly match Richard Dawson, the gold standard at the time, you're on your way.
Read animator Chuck Jones' dicussion of how he and his team wrote their features (e.g. use "Yes and..." and avoid "No" when expanding a story). The Road-Runner cartoon famously had a set of rules to constrain the characters yet allowing a near-infinite palette of funny premises and conclusions within those rules.
Play along with the performers on the 'Whose Line Is It Anyway?' TV show. Yes, you'll be awful at first. Observing talent in action and practicing will stretch those brain muscles.
For the past several years, November has been declared national everybody-should-try-to-write-a-novel month. The folks at HumbleBundle.com will likely offer another writing-book bundle next month, probably including a book on comedy writing. These bundles of downloadable no-DRM ebooks valued at several hundred dollars, are offered for dirt cheap, from $1 for a select subset to $18 to $25 for the full bundle. Part of your purchase goes to a charity named in the promotion. The bundle is offered for a 20-day window. I bought the 2021 bundle and found it useful for both writing and comedy. YMMV.
Check out your local community college for improv comedy classes/troupes. If memory serves, major standalone improv troupes offering classes and with branches across the country include ComedySportz, Second City, Upright Citizens Brigade.
(If you're really desperate, just wait until his next divorce and then marry John Cleese. He'll write everything, bounce ideas off you and give you co-writer credit ;-> )
I'll leave you with a memorable quote Faber College's founder Emil Faber never said but should have, 'Comedy is often funny.' Words to live by.
PS: Some D&D freebie writing prompts for you: A dragon who is trying to quit smoking and wears a huge nicotine patch -- the patch sometimes comes unglued, falls off, and fatally engulfs approaching individuals. A knight with child-proof weapons. A wizard whose power ls limited to making configuring things easier. A huge hulking ogre who causes (absurdly out of proportion) terrified reactions in the other players by breaking into their home clothes drawers and mismatching their socks.
posted by zaixfeep at 1:49 AM on October 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
I learned a lot from a book with the basic nuts and bolts of how brick wall standup comedian jokes work: Judy Carter’s The Comedy Bible. Gets you thinking about how to set up jokes about things in a system that only allows 4 attitudes (for newbies like me): weird, hard, scary or stupid.
posted by earthstarvoyager at 4:04 AM on October 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by earthstarvoyager at 4:04 AM on October 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Are you funny in real life? Take mental or physical notes about what kinds of jokes land best for you, and pay attention to your audiences too.
Also think about your type of humor. Do funny things happen to you? Do you make witty comments?
Dave Barry gets a lot of mileage out of humorously describing things that aren't intrinsically that funny. As an exercise, try to copy the style of one of his pieces. Take the same story and write it with your own words, or take his words and wrap them around a different story.
On the witty side, try the same exercise with scenes from Oscar Wilde.
Basically my advice is focus on learning from your irl humor to find you style and voice, then copy from your favorite masters to build the humor into your writing.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:47 AM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also think about your type of humor. Do funny things happen to you? Do you make witty comments?
Dave Barry gets a lot of mileage out of humorously describing things that aren't intrinsically that funny. As an exercise, try to copy the style of one of his pieces. Take the same story and write it with your own words, or take his words and wrap them around a different story.
On the witty side, try the same exercise with scenes from Oscar Wilde.
Basically my advice is focus on learning from your irl humor to find you style and voice, then copy from your favorite masters to build the humor into your writing.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:47 AM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
If what you want is to write funny prose, the answer is always "read funny prose".
Standup comedy is different because so much depends on delivery.
Comics are different because so much of the humour is visual.
In prose, all you have are your words to convey not only the joke but the situation, timing, voices and facial expressions-- everything.
So, read the masters of the genre from whom your icons learned. Read PG Wodehouse, James Thurber (the fairy tales are a good start), Robert Benchley, Nora Ephron. Dorothy Parker's theatre reviews and vignettes like The Waltz are great. Her short stories and verse are part comic, part serious, but all worth reading.
Love what you love, but some of the authors you mention are... sort of dated. 80s white-guy humour reads as heavy-handed now. Pratchett at his best is great, but the early books are often tiresome, and there's some dated humour throughout. In newspaper humour, Dave Barry is very much out, and Alexandra Petri is very much in. What's funny to people today? Find out.
(Do not, whatever you do, marry John Cleese. His "funniest" bits these days are "immigrants, they're everywhere, eh?" and "Political correctness, boooo" without a shred of self-awareness)
Crucially: read comic prose by people outside your demographic who also aren't white guys.
Don't let the fear of writing badly stop you. Just write more bad comedy until you write good comedy. I guarantee you this is what all your icons did.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:02 AM on October 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
Standup comedy is different because so much depends on delivery.
Comics are different because so much of the humour is visual.
In prose, all you have are your words to convey not only the joke but the situation, timing, voices and facial expressions-- everything.
So, read the masters of the genre from whom your icons learned. Read PG Wodehouse, James Thurber (the fairy tales are a good start), Robert Benchley, Nora Ephron. Dorothy Parker's theatre reviews and vignettes like The Waltz are great. Her short stories and verse are part comic, part serious, but all worth reading.
Love what you love, but some of the authors you mention are... sort of dated. 80s white-guy humour reads as heavy-handed now. Pratchett at his best is great, but the early books are often tiresome, and there's some dated humour throughout. In newspaper humour, Dave Barry is very much out, and Alexandra Petri is very much in. What's funny to people today? Find out.
(Do not, whatever you do, marry John Cleese. His "funniest" bits these days are "immigrants, they're everywhere, eh?" and "Political correctness, boooo" without a shred of self-awareness)
Crucially: read comic prose by people outside your demographic who also aren't white guys.
Don't let the fear of writing badly stop you. Just write more bad comedy until you write good comedy. I guarantee you this is what all your icons did.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:02 AM on October 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
The Comedian's Comedian podcast has in-depth interviews with a huge range of (primarily, but not exclusively, British) comedians where they talk about their work, with the intended audience being other comedians. They often dig into how they develop a joke, what the techniques are, what their philosophy of comedy is, etc.. An outstanding resource that really changed the way I think about comedy.
posted by Mournful Bagel Song at 5:28 AM on October 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mournful Bagel Song at 5:28 AM on October 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Second City offers online comedy writing classes, for example.
posted by shadygrove at 7:56 AM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by shadygrove at 7:56 AM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
[re Cleese: Sigh. Too true, Pallas, too true. Harry Enfield's impression captures and absolutely roasts the elder Cleese's smug entitlement and arrogance. But Cleese remains useful if you are in the mood for a pointless pedantic argument or just need help getting that very old and suspicious bottle of HP sauce off the topmost shelf of the nosebleed section of your pantry. Mods, pls pardon this derail and do carry on, thanks]
posted by zaixfeep at 8:25 AM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by zaixfeep at 8:25 AM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
In addition to the good advice already here: Read like a writer. As you read the things you like, pay attention to what you find funny. Then pick it apart. How did the author do that and how can I do it too? Look at the words, the pacing, the setups, and so on. Find their techniques and try them for yourself.
posted by booth at 8:30 AM on October 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by booth at 8:30 AM on October 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Read great humor writers, like Calvin Trillin, PG Wodehouse, Russell Baker, Tina Fey. Read Kingsley Amis' Lucky Jim, dated, but one of the few pieces of writing that ever made me laugh out loud. I didn't fully get the humor the 1st time I read it, the re-read killed. Calvin Trillin is a treasure, the food writing is 1st rate, but vso much more, and he also has a lot of serious writing. Written humor is, to me, more subtle, and I think it's hard. When it tries too hard, like a lot of New Yorker humor, I Nope out.
posted by theora55 at 8:53 AM on October 9, 2023
posted by theora55 at 8:53 AM on October 9, 2023
I am on several fiction groups and I put my stuff out there, but it gets very few views or comments, so I don't know if it's just bad overall,
This is key. Besides everybody's comments on what to read, watch, etc., it's crucial you get feedback on what works, what doesn't, etc. It's 100% the only way to advance as any kind of writer, IMO.
Look for a local critique group, if you can, or an online one.
When I started writing (not that long ago) I joined the Online Writing Workshop for Science Fiction, Fantasy and Horror, which charges a small fee but works with a tit-for-tat method that means you have to crit to get crits.
Learning to critique other's prose is as or more important than getting crits, as it helps you understand what works and what doesn't and why. Eventually you develop your own internal reviewer who looks over your shoulder when you're writing.
I have also tried Critique Circle, which is not specifically SFF, and I find it's less welcoming and the quality of crits you get is less useful.
I also have an online, video call based group and another text-based one, as well as a few online writer friends who I can ask to read my stuff. Everybody who can read your piece and say something intelligent about it is of great value.
posted by signal at 9:20 AM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is key. Besides everybody's comments on what to read, watch, etc., it's crucial you get feedback on what works, what doesn't, etc. It's 100% the only way to advance as any kind of writer, IMO.
Look for a local critique group, if you can, or an online one.
When I started writing (not that long ago) I joined the Online Writing Workshop for Science Fiction, Fantasy and Horror, which charges a small fee but works with a tit-for-tat method that means you have to crit to get crits.
Learning to critique other's prose is as or more important than getting crits, as it helps you understand what works and what doesn't and why. Eventually you develop your own internal reviewer who looks over your shoulder when you're writing.
I have also tried Critique Circle, which is not specifically SFF, and I find it's less welcoming and the quality of crits you get is less useful.
I also have an online, video call based group and another text-based one, as well as a few online writer friends who I can ask to read my stuff. Everybody who can read your piece and say something intelligent about it is of great value.
posted by signal at 9:20 AM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just to add: writing is writing, and humor works or doesn't. I wouldn't look for a specifically 'humor' oriented platform, just one where you feel comfortable and get a reasonable amount of feedback. Feel free to post here or memail if you want any specifics.
posted by signal at 9:22 AM on October 9, 2023
posted by signal at 9:22 AM on October 9, 2023
Would you have the time/money to take a few writing classes, online or in person (I peeked at your location, here's a list of WA writing orgs from Seattle Public Library.)There are writing classes focused on humor.
I recently took an online writing workshop and there's nothing as delightful as having the concentrated thoughtful feedback from a bunch of other writers.
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:48 AM on October 9, 2023
I recently took an online writing workshop and there's nothing as delightful as having the concentrated thoughtful feedback from a bunch of other writers.
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:48 AM on October 9, 2023
Response by poster: I kinda hate to do this because it's self promoting, but here's some of my fiction-- maybe someone here can give me feedback? Especially on the attempted humor?
https://www.royalroad.com/profile/372146/fictions
posted by The otter lady at 10:47 AM on October 9, 2023
https://www.royalroad.com/profile/372146/fictions
posted by The otter lady at 10:47 AM on October 9, 2023
Does any of your writing look like the stories on AO3? There are fantasy categories, including D&D and original works; filter results by tagging for humor.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:17 PM on October 9, 2023
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:17 PM on October 9, 2023
This is kind of obvious, but:
Look at funny texts that you like; figure out why they’re funny; imitate them.
posted by PaulVario at 12:20 PM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Look at funny texts that you like; figure out why they’re funny; imitate them.
posted by PaulVario at 12:20 PM on October 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I looked at two of your stories, and based on that I think the section in the middle of this article where it discusses joke construction might be a good place for you to start even though the article as a whole is about a different genre: Dissecting a Frog: How to Write a Humor Piece.
In general, places like AO3 and Royal Road don't have a culture of providing constructive feedback, and unless you write in a popular genre AND promote your work, it is difficult to get any engagement at all. It would be best to look for a writing group in your genre that meets regularly in person or online.
The #1 way to find a writing group is take a writing class, connect with classmates whose work you like and who are good at providing feedback, and continue meeting with them after the class is over. Other ways are meetup, nanowrimo meetups, book clubs (I've noticed that sci-fi book clubs always have members working on their own novels), and Reddit.
posted by betweenthebars at 12:47 PM on October 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
In general, places like AO3 and Royal Road don't have a culture of providing constructive feedback, and unless you write in a popular genre AND promote your work, it is difficult to get any engagement at all. It would be best to look for a writing group in your genre that meets regularly in person or online.
The #1 way to find a writing group is take a writing class, connect with classmates whose work you like and who are good at providing feedback, and continue meeting with them after the class is over. Other ways are meetup, nanowrimo meetups, book clubs (I've noticed that sci-fi book clubs always have members working on their own novels), and Reddit.
posted by betweenthebars at 12:47 PM on October 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've gotten decent feedback in the comments on stories on AO3 for obscure stuff, but second a writing class and using contemporary writers' work as templates for learning the rhythms you're after. Your current writing communities seem a little intense for your purposes.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:07 PM on October 9, 2023
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:07 PM on October 9, 2023
i read a good rubric which is 'pick any two of weird, recognisable, rude, cute, or mean' then put them together. Cute and weird, mean and recognisable. It's a good starting point at least.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:00 PM on October 9, 2023
posted by Sebmojo at 2:00 PM on October 9, 2023
[Additional FYI]
- National Novel Writing Month website
- HumbleBundle NaNoWriMo ebook bundle $1-to-$18 sale webpage (37 days left from time of this post)
posted by zaixfeep at 8:18 AM on October 24, 2023
- National Novel Writing Month website
- HumbleBundle NaNoWriMo ebook bundle $1-to-$18 sale webpage (37 days left from time of this post)
posted by zaixfeep at 8:18 AM on October 24, 2023
I highly recommend subscribing to Alex Baia's newsletter, and reading some of his published pieces online. Dude is hilarious, and a great student of comedy as well. Many of his pieces are like a master class in great execution of a simple funny idea.
posted by slappy_pinchbottom at 2:55 PM on November 3, 2023
posted by slappy_pinchbottom at 2:55 PM on November 3, 2023
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More importantly, this article repeats a thought I have found especially valuable: "Some who have sought to explain humor point to the fact that many jokes or funny events contradict one’s sense of how things are supposed to be... something is funny when it seems both wrong or threatening and essentially harmless—as when a comedian says something shocking but clearly unserious. (What counts as benign depends on the perceiver of the joke.)"
For writing, make sure you've read all of Douglas Adams' work.
Comics: Berke Breathed, Allie Brosh.
There definitely is bad/boring writing out there. Find the best of the best (by your definition of that), and mimic that. Ignore everything else.
Caveat: I'm not a comedian, just a wannabe.
posted by commander_fancypants at 11:30 PM on October 8, 2023 [2 favorites]