Help with this relative clause question.
September 29, 2023 5:21 PM Subscribe
English grammar question: "The house __________ we visited yesterday was beautiful."
a) that
b) which
c) where
The correct answer is a) that, which I think is the best answer, but b and c kinda sorta sound ok to me as well. Please tell me why b) and c) are incorrect.
a) that
b) which
c) where
The correct answer is a) that, which I think is the best answer, but b and c kinda sorta sound ok to me as well. Please tell me why b) and c) are incorrect.
d) [ blank ]
"The house we visited yesterday was beautiful," is a perfectly acceptable sentence
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:42 PM on September 29, 2023 [33 favorites]
"The house we visited yesterday was beautiful," is a perfectly acceptable sentence
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:42 PM on September 29, 2023 [33 favorites]
Best answer: C changes the meaning a bit. Maybe if you were saying that you visited a general area, and while there saw a beautiful house it works.
posted by mannequito at 5:43 PM on September 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mannequito at 5:43 PM on September 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
"which" is for non-restrictive relative clauses.
"that" is for restrictive relative clauses.
"where"... i've never heard that.
https://writingcenter.unc.edu/tips-and-tools/relative-clauses/
posted by at at 5:46 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
"that" is for restrictive relative clauses.
"where"... i've never heard that.
https://writingcenter.unc.edu/tips-and-tools/relative-clauses/
posted by at at 5:46 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
"The house we visited yesterday was beautiful," is a perfectly acceptable sentence
Yes! You don't need a word there at all.
But I'll also say you can tell a lot about a person who reaches for "which" too often.
posted by emelenjr at 5:53 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes! You don't need a word there at all.
But I'll also say you can tell a lot about a person who reaches for "which" too often.
posted by emelenjr at 5:53 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Whom of which"?
posted by Windopaene at 6:35 PM on September 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 6:35 PM on September 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
Best answer: My understanding is that that can only be used in restrictive relative clauses (what lapis refers to as essential clauses), while which can be used in both restrictive and nonrestrictive clauses. (Although the choice of relative pronoun in this case may depend on style preferences.)
So for example:
'The green book on the table, which I read yesterday, is very funny' is an example of a sentence with a nonrestrictive clause, i.e. 'which I read yesterday' can be removed without making the subject of the sentence ambiguous: we know which book is being referred to. The nonrestrictive clause adds additional but nonessential information. This is the kind of clause where the relative pronoun that cannot appear. (The nonrestrictive clause is also set off by commas in written form.)
On the other hand:
'The chair that fell yesterday was stolen' contains a restrictive clause, i.e. a clause that specifies the subject of the sentence and therefore cannot be removed without making the subject of the sentence ambiguous. Removing 'that was painted yesterday' would make it impossible to know which chair we are talking about. This is the only kind of clause where the relative pronoun that can appear. The relative pronoun which can also appear in this type of relative clause, so the choice seems to be based on style preferences.
The reason why 'The house we visited yesterday was beautiful' does not need a relative pronoun is because the relative pronoun represents the object of the relative clause, and therefore can be removed. This is what's called a reduced relative clause. In my example with the chair, the relative pronoun that cannot be removed because it does not meet the conditions for a reduced clause (it does not represent the object of the relative clause) so *'the chair fell yesterday was stolen' is not grammatical.
As far as option c) goes, I'm not sure but I have the same feeling as lapis and mannequito.
posted by piamater at 6:49 PM on September 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
So for example:
'The green book on the table, which I read yesterday, is very funny' is an example of a sentence with a nonrestrictive clause, i.e. 'which I read yesterday' can be removed without making the subject of the sentence ambiguous: we know which book is being referred to. The nonrestrictive clause adds additional but nonessential information. This is the kind of clause where the relative pronoun that cannot appear. (The nonrestrictive clause is also set off by commas in written form.)
On the other hand:
'The chair that fell yesterday was stolen' contains a restrictive clause, i.e. a clause that specifies the subject of the sentence and therefore cannot be removed without making the subject of the sentence ambiguous. Removing 'that was painted yesterday' would make it impossible to know which chair we are talking about. This is the only kind of clause where the relative pronoun that can appear. The relative pronoun which can also appear in this type of relative clause, so the choice seems to be based on style preferences.
The reason why 'The house we visited yesterday was beautiful' does not need a relative pronoun is because the relative pronoun represents the object of the relative clause, and therefore can be removed. This is what's called a reduced relative clause. In my example with the chair, the relative pronoun that cannot be removed because it does not meet the conditions for a reduced clause (it does not represent the object of the relative clause) so *'the chair fell yesterday was stolen' is not grammatical.
As far as option c) goes, I'm not sure but I have the same feeling as lapis and mannequito.
posted by piamater at 6:49 PM on September 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
There is no correct or incorrect in language as long as people understand you. The purpose of language is communication and there is no absolute truth to be found here.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:01 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rhymedirective at 7:01 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
My understanding is that that can only be used in restrictive relative clauses (what lapis refers to as essential clauses), while which can be used in both restrictive and nonrestrictive clauses.Indeed. No one must have told Shakespeare, for example, that it was wrong to use “which” in phrases like “forego the way which promises assurance,” or “that every eye which in this forest looks / shall see thy virtue witness’d every where.”
posted by mbrubeck at 7:09 PM on September 29, 2023
Best answer: I'll disagree with the people who say b is clearly right. There is no singular right answer. It depends on what you are trying to say.
a. The house that we visited today was beautiful. The house that we visited yesterday was ugly.
b. The White House, which we visited yesterday, was beautiful despite being surrounded by barricades.
c. The beach house, where we vacationed, was beautiful and had many rooms.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:47 PM on September 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
a. The house that we visited today was beautiful. The house that we visited yesterday was ugly.
b. The White House, which we visited yesterday, was beautiful despite being surrounded by barricades.
c. The beach house, where we vacationed, was beautiful and had many rooms.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:47 PM on September 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
"which" is for non-restrictive relative clauses.
"that" is for restrictive relative clauses.
"where"... i've never heard that.
Oh, sure you have. Where, like Why, Who and When, can also be used as a relative pronoun:
The house Where I was born was torn down last year.
2026 was the year When I got my braces.
That is the reason Why I was late.
The teacher Who failed me retired last year.
The house we visited yesterday was beautiful," is a perfectly acceptable sentence
Yes! You don't need a word there at all.
The relative pronoun can be omitted when it refers to the object of the sentence.
The house (that) we visited yesterday was beautiful
posted by Rash at 7:55 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
"that" is for restrictive relative clauses.
"where"... i've never heard that.
Oh, sure you have. Where, like Why, Who and When, can also be used as a relative pronoun:
The house Where I was born was torn down last year.
2026 was the year When I got my braces.
That is the reason Why I was late.
The teacher Who failed me retired last year.
The house we visited yesterday was beautiful," is a perfectly acceptable sentence
Yes! You don't need a word there at all.
The relative pronoun can be omitted when it refers to the object of the sentence.
The house (that) we visited yesterday was beautiful
posted by Rash at 7:55 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
...but not when it refers to the subject:
The teacher who/that/which failed me retired last year.
Whichever relative pronoun you use, it cannot be omitted here.
posted by Rash at 8:00 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The teacher who/that/which failed me retired last year.
Whichever relative pronoun you use, it cannot be omitted here.
posted by Rash at 8:00 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
a. The house that we visited today was beautiful. The house that we visited yesterday was ugly.
The clauses in these sentences are restrictive. They cannot be omitted without losing the sense of the sentence.
b. The White House, which we visited yesterday, was beautiful despite being surrounded by barricades.
c. The beach house, where we vacationed, was beautiful and had many rooms.
These sentences use non-restrictive adjective clauses. The clauses provide additional information, but they can be omitted without losing the sense of the sentence. Non-restrictive clauses are offset by commas.
b. The White House was beautiful despite being surrounded by barricades.
c. The beach house was beautiful and had many rooms.
posted by Rash at 8:06 PM on September 29, 2023
The clauses in these sentences are restrictive. They cannot be omitted without losing the sense of the sentence.
b. The White House, which we visited yesterday, was beautiful despite being surrounded by barricades.
c. The beach house, where we vacationed, was beautiful and had many rooms.
These sentences use non-restrictive adjective clauses. The clauses provide additional information, but they can be omitted without losing the sense of the sentence. Non-restrictive clauses are offset by commas.
b. The White House was beautiful despite being surrounded by barricades.
c. The beach house was beautiful and had many rooms.
posted by Rash at 8:06 PM on September 29, 2023
That is correct, but (as noted above) you don’t need any of them. “The house we visited yesterday was beautiful.”
posted by Miko at 9:09 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 9:09 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think (c) would be acceptable as a correlative of the sentence "We visited at the house", which is not something I'd say but is certainly something I've read. Whether it's archaic or regional or what, I'm not sure. (If I understand this usage, you can't visit "at" a house on the market, or "at" Monticello; you visit "at" the house of a relative or friend, and you are really visiting the person, for which the house is merely the setting.)
posted by aws17576 at 10:37 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by aws17576 at 10:37 PM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: One comment deleted. We are asking that people not use ChatGPT or similar to answer questions in Ask Metafilter, thank you!
posted by taz (staff) at 12:14 AM on September 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 12:14 AM on September 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks, everyone, lots of great answers!
posted by zardoz at 12:55 AM on September 30, 2023
posted by zardoz at 12:55 AM on September 30, 2023
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C would be correct if you were describing where the visiting happened, as opposed to the house itself.
posted by lapis at 5:30 PM on September 29, 2023 [11 favorites]