Gradual transition method of learning language?
September 14, 2013 1:16 PM Subscribe
Has anyone seen examples of a language-learning method where you begin reading (maybe along with audio narration or subtitled video) in English and over time the syntax and vocab gradually shift into the new language? If it's not a thing, can you imagine why not? If it is, can you help me find it?
Yes. There's an iPad app that teaches you Chinese via the magic of Toy Story. It takes a paragraph of text in english, then gradually introduces Chinese vocabulary, at a rate controlled by the reader.
Apparently the generic term for the technique is called the 'Diglot Weave'
posted by pipeski at 1:35 PM on September 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
Apparently the generic term for the technique is called the 'Diglot Weave'
posted by pipeski at 1:35 PM on September 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
There is actually an internet "thing" that you can do that with-I used to h ave it on my computer but looks like my husband deleted it. :P. Maybe someone else here has a link?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:50 PM on September 14, 2013
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:50 PM on September 14, 2013
There's a series of three books in Japan about a character named "Magical Marine Pixel Maritan" (NSFW) which has two-page spreads. On one page is a multi-panel comic in which all the balloons have Japanese text except one, which is in English. The other side is a gloss, explaining what the English meant.
Um, the English is always profanity or obscenity or racial epithets. The series is a spoof of a different series called "Moetan" which is supposed to teach the English language. The Maritan series is about teaching the Japanese how to cuss. In the first book, all the English lines were taken from the movie "Full Metal Jacket", but they branched out in the other two.
Here's a NSFW example.
It's not really what you're thinking, but it's what you're talking about, nonetheless.
A completely unrelated example: The book "Watership Down" is written in English, but as the book goes on, the author tosses in words in Welsh. I've never read it, but what I've been told is that by the time you get to the climax of the story, one of the characters delivers a line entirely in Welsh -- and you understand it, because by that point you've learned all the words.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:17 PM on September 14, 2013
Um, the English is always profanity or obscenity or racial epithets. The series is a spoof of a different series called "Moetan" which is supposed to teach the English language. The Maritan series is about teaching the Japanese how to cuss. In the first book, all the English lines were taken from the movie "Full Metal Jacket", but they branched out in the other two.
Here's a NSFW example.
It's not really what you're thinking, but it's what you're talking about, nonetheless.
A completely unrelated example: The book "Watership Down" is written in English, but as the book goes on, the author tosses in words in Welsh. I've never read it, but what I've been told is that by the time you get to the climax of the story, one of the characters delivers a line entirely in Welsh -- and you understand it, because by that point you've learned all the words.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:17 PM on September 14, 2013
but as the book goes on, the author tosses in words in Welsh. I've never read it, but what I've been told is that by the time you get to the climax of the story, one of the characters delivers a line entirely in Welsh -- and you understand it, because by that point you've learned all the words.
Matter of fact, it's not real Welsh — it's a made-up language of the author's own invention, though it does seem to be partly inspired by Welsh.
But yeah, the book does do a good job of teaching you the language gradually. A Clockwork Orange seems to approach Nadsat the same way, introducing words in contexts where it's clear what they mean and then eventually starting to use them in contexts where it's important that you've learned them. I think if you're using a fictional language, you pretty much have to take this sort of gradual approach to teaching it, because it's not like your readers have the option of full immersion.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 2:43 PM on September 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
Matter of fact, it's not real Welsh — it's a made-up language of the author's own invention, though it does seem to be partly inspired by Welsh.
But yeah, the book does do a good job of teaching you the language gradually. A Clockwork Orange seems to approach Nadsat the same way, introducing words in contexts where it's clear what they mean and then eventually starting to use them in contexts where it's important that you've learned them. I think if you're using a fictional language, you pretty much have to take this sort of gradual approach to teaching it, because it's not like your readers have the option of full immersion.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 2:43 PM on September 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have a little book called "Read Japanese Today", by Len Walsh, that does this.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 3:10 PM on September 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by sevenyearlurk at 3:10 PM on September 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's not a thing because foreign languages are not English written with different words. Thinking about a foreign language as English written in codewords is, in general, a poor approach to learning foreign languages.
I mean, it might work with two languages that are already similar, e.g. English and Dutch, or Spanish and French, but I can't imagine how you would do it with, say, English and Turkish, or English and Korean. The basic grammar is just too different. Even English and German would be a stretch.
What does exist is graded readers, where the first chapter uses a very small, basic vocabulary (say 100 words) and introduces new words or grammatical concepts in each chapter, allowing them to be learnt in context.
posted by pravit at 3:12 PM on September 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
I mean, it might work with two languages that are already similar, e.g. English and Dutch, or Spanish and French, but I can't imagine how you would do it with, say, English and Turkish, or English and Korean. The basic grammar is just too different. Even English and German would be a stretch.
What does exist is graded readers, where the first chapter uses a very small, basic vocabulary (say 100 words) and introduces new words or grammatical concepts in each chapter, allowing them to be learnt in context.
posted by pravit at 3:12 PM on September 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
I read once a book like this, but it was for German-speakers who wanted to learn English. It was written as a sort of memoir, flitting between the author's past and the writing present, in which he established an explicit, and flirty, relationship with the reader, and in between a lot of reflection, observation etc - a very German writing style. The whole book was written like a dialogue between the author and the reader (conceived as a singular reader), and started mainly in German and ended mostly English.
Here a fragment from the beginning of the book - if you wade through the German, you can see the English coming in, sometimes solo, sometimes with commentary, translations etc, but at all times incredibly charming and engaging (at the end of the book my English proficiency had sky-rocketed):
Dear Doosie,
warum ich Sie Doosie nenne, fragen Sie? Well, my dear, don't you understand German - verstehen Sie denn kein Deutsch? I am calling you Doosie, weil ich noch nicht recht weiß, ob ich Du oder Sie zu Ihnen sagen soll. Deshalb. That's why.
"ob ich Du oder Sie.." Könnten Sie mir bitte einmal ganz schnell dieses "ob" übersetzen?
Gut! (bzw.:) Schlecht! Nicht if, sondern whether, ausgesprochen wie weather, -Wetter. Womit wir unsere Unterhaltung sehr englisch angefangen haben, mit Wettergeschwätz.
Verzeihung, sorry. Ich bin mit diesem whether-weather eigentlich recht unenglisch gewesen: I have made a pun, ein Wortspiel. So etwas mag im Deutschen vielleicht angängig sein, permissible, bisweilen sogar lustig, amusing. In England aber findet man es zumeist unerträglich, unbearable. Sollten Ihnen einmal Wortwitzeleien wie die meinen auf englisch serviert werden, dann bitte verziehen Sie den Mund, sagen Sie blasiert: "that's a pun", und Sie werden den Leuten, sofern Ihnen daran liegt, ob Ihres ureingeborenen Englisch imponieren - you will impress people. ja, impress, "imponieren", sagen Sie bloß nicht impose, was "aufbürden" bedeutet, "aufdringlich sein".
"What an imposition", könnten Sie zum Beispiel sagen, "was für eine Aufdringlichkeit, mir gleich mit diesem Doosie ins Haus zu fallen."
Did you say so? Yes or no?
posted by miorita at 3:56 PM on September 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Here a fragment from the beginning of the book - if you wade through the German, you can see the English coming in, sometimes solo, sometimes with commentary, translations etc, but at all times incredibly charming and engaging (at the end of the book my English proficiency had sky-rocketed):
Dear Doosie,
warum ich Sie Doosie nenne, fragen Sie? Well, my dear, don't you understand German - verstehen Sie denn kein Deutsch? I am calling you Doosie, weil ich noch nicht recht weiß, ob ich Du oder Sie zu Ihnen sagen soll. Deshalb. That's why.
"ob ich Du oder Sie.." Könnten Sie mir bitte einmal ganz schnell dieses "ob" übersetzen?
Gut! (bzw.:) Schlecht! Nicht if, sondern whether, ausgesprochen wie weather, -Wetter. Womit wir unsere Unterhaltung sehr englisch angefangen haben, mit Wettergeschwätz.
Verzeihung, sorry. Ich bin mit diesem whether-weather eigentlich recht unenglisch gewesen: I have made a pun, ein Wortspiel. So etwas mag im Deutschen vielleicht angängig sein, permissible, bisweilen sogar lustig, amusing. In England aber findet man es zumeist unerträglich, unbearable. Sollten Ihnen einmal Wortwitzeleien wie die meinen auf englisch serviert werden, dann bitte verziehen Sie den Mund, sagen Sie blasiert: "that's a pun", und Sie werden den Leuten, sofern Ihnen daran liegt, ob Ihres ureingeborenen Englisch imponieren - you will impress people. ja, impress, "imponieren", sagen Sie bloß nicht impose, was "aufbürden" bedeutet, "aufdringlich sein".
"What an imposition", könnten Sie zum Beispiel sagen, "was für eine Aufdringlichkeit, mir gleich mit diesem Doosie ins Haus zu fallen."
Did you say so? Yes or no?
posted by miorita at 3:56 PM on September 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
This sounds a little bit like the lexical approach devised by Michael Lewis in the 1990s, though I have had no direct experience with the latter.
It's also, functionally, a lot like pidgin and creole versions of language. These often involve the vocabulary of one language merged with the grammar of another. Also, one notes that the various dialects of English around the world develop individual vocabularies, especially, with local influence.
If it's not a thing, can you imagine why not?
Well, for one thing, it's pretty firmly established that when you learn a second language, it occupies a separate part of your physical brain, and that people "think" in one language even if they are speaking in another -- although with proficiency in a second language, almost by definition, you are starting to think in that language. Speaking one or the other language is a drastic form of code-switching, where you are choosing one mode or the other in which to speak. I don't know that a gradualist approach would mesh well with this documented brain function.
But then English itself is a massively corrupted tongue with typically as many as three cognates for the same thing (Celtic/Germanic, Old French, and Latin). So I wonder if this would be more natural for native English speakers. If any of this has been studied it would be interesting to see the results.
posted by dhartung at 4:01 PM on September 14, 2013
It's also, functionally, a lot like pidgin and creole versions of language. These often involve the vocabulary of one language merged with the grammar of another. Also, one notes that the various dialects of English around the world develop individual vocabularies, especially, with local influence.
If it's not a thing, can you imagine why not?
Well, for one thing, it's pretty firmly established that when you learn a second language, it occupies a separate part of your physical brain, and that people "think" in one language even if they are speaking in another -- although with proficiency in a second language, almost by definition, you are starting to think in that language. Speaking one or the other language is a drastic form of code-switching, where you are choosing one mode or the other in which to speak. I don't know that a gradualist approach would mesh well with this documented brain function.
But then English itself is a massively corrupted tongue with typically as many as three cognates for the same thing (Celtic/Germanic, Old French, and Latin). So I wonder if this would be more natural for native English speakers. If any of this has been studied it would be interesting to see the results.
posted by dhartung at 4:01 PM on September 14, 2013
It's not a thing because foreign languages are not English written with different words. Thinking about a foreign language as English written in codewords is, in general, a poor approach to learning foreign languages.
Exactly this. Other languages are not a cipher for your native language. Different languages have different syntax, different grammatical concepts, and other such factors. It would be very odd to the point of being useless to try to read something like 四川food也not错.
I do recommend that language learners to a lot of reading, which I view as a form of listening because you will be subvocalizing a lot more than in your native language. For a few months, you can use learner's materials such as the graded readers that pravit mentioned. After that, go into native materials, preferably with a companion audio text. For example, you could get a novel that also exists as an audio book - this can be done cheaply if a public domain book is paired with Libravox. I don't recommend children's books because of the weird vocabulary about ogres and such and because of the very basic syntax.
Alternatively, you can use bilingual texts that have the target language on one page and your native language on the facing page. I use this method quite a bit.
posted by Tanizaki at 5:45 PM on September 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Exactly this. Other languages are not a cipher for your native language. Different languages have different syntax, different grammatical concepts, and other such factors. It would be very odd to the point of being useless to try to read something like 四川food也not错.
I do recommend that language learners to a lot of reading, which I view as a form of listening because you will be subvocalizing a lot more than in your native language. For a few months, you can use learner's materials such as the graded readers that pravit mentioned. After that, go into native materials, preferably with a companion audio text. For example, you could get a novel that also exists as an audio book - this can be done cheaply if a public domain book is paired with Libravox. I don't recommend children's books because of the weird vocabulary about ogres and such and because of the very basic syntax.
Alternatively, you can use bilingual texts that have the target language on one page and your native language on the facing page. I use this method quite a bit.
posted by Tanizaki at 5:45 PM on September 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
> It's not a thing because foreign languages are not English written with different words.
Yes, yes, but I sure have had the thought before. Version 0.1, from high school (you can probably tell) was "All the indo-european languages are really the same language, only with thick accents."
Probably not defensible. But in related languages (e.g. German and English) it's a great temptation to do your translation homework by swapping around the syntax first and then subbing in the vocabulary words. And it sort of works often enough to keep the temptation hot. And to keep the temptation hot it works often enough, sort of. Und damit die Versuchung heiß es funktioniert oft genug, irgendwie.
posted by jfuller at 8:39 PM on September 14, 2013
Yes, yes, but I sure have had the thought before. Version 0.1, from high school (you can probably tell) was "All the indo-european languages are really the same language, only with thick accents."
Probably not defensible. But in related languages (e.g. German and English) it's a great temptation to do your translation homework by swapping around the syntax first and then subbing in the vocabulary words. And it sort of works often enough to keep the temptation hot. And to keep the temptation hot it works often enough, sort of. Und damit die Versuchung heiß es funktioniert oft genug, irgendwie.
posted by jfuller at 8:39 PM on September 14, 2013
Yes, this exists! I once came across a website that used this technique, then lost the link. I was so keen to find it again that I joined MetaFilter to ask about it; unfortunately the Hive Mind was not able to help in this case.
posted by pont at 11:36 PM on September 14, 2013
posted by pont at 11:36 PM on September 14, 2013
There's an introductory Latin textbook called Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata whose texts are entirely in Latin, but the early texts use words with roots that English speakers are familiar with so that student is supposed to be able to understand the texts right from the start. The texts start out very simple and later become more complex, and I assume eventually introduce less familiar roots and grammatical constructions.
posted by trig at 11:39 PM on September 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by trig at 11:39 PM on September 14, 2013 [2 favorites]
There was a thread on the green about this a while back...look I've found it!
posted by fix at 10:36 AM on September 15, 2013
posted by fix at 10:36 AM on September 15, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 1:33 PM on September 14, 2013