Do any graduate programs emphasize writing while teaching English grammar, literature, and Latin?

January 8, 2011 6:16 PM

Is there any graduate program that emphasizes writing skills (in English) while providing a rigorous education in grammar, literature, and related languages (i.e. Latin), without focusing on literary criticism, but rather on writing itself? More after the jump.

Ok, I got my B.A. in biology from a nice college a year and a half ago, with good grades. Laboratory work isn't doing it for me, and I'm weighing my options. One possibility that I've been trying to explore is studying writing and English-- but from everything I've seen, PhD programs in English (besides generally expecting a humanities undergraduate degree) overwhelmingly emphasize literary criticism. I'm not looking to make a career of writing about what somebody wrote about somebody's writing. Rather, I'd want to learn more about the fundamentals of writing in English and do creative writing of my own, as in an MFA program. However, what I've seen in MFA curricula is a complete focus on workshops and literature courses, with no formal study of grammar or Latin-- that is, no serious academic study of the language itself and its roots.

So I'm wondering: do any graduate programs like what I'm looking for exist? One possibility might be to pursue an MFA at a school that gives a lot of leeway with electives, like Brown or UT Austin, but those schools are way too selective for me to make a plan of attending them. From what I've seen, electives seem to be a mark of innovative, popular, selective programs. Perhaps an MFA student could audit courses, to the extent he had time? I could get a particularly large amount of coursework done that way at a three-year program or, say, at Arkansas' four-year MFA.

If I were to pursue this track, this is the best plan I have so far: get an MFA with as much formal language study as possible on the side, either through electives or audits (or both), and then go after a PhD in creative writing while doing the same, wrestling as much control over my coursework as I could from my university. Does that sound like a reasonable way of following this path? I should also note that I'd consider full funding to be a serious priority when looking at MFA programs-- it doesn't strike me as a degree that leads to a life of financial stability, and I'd be hesitant to go into significant debt pursuing it.

posted by Nebula to Writing & Language (17 answers total)

What about linguistics?
posted by barnone at 6:25 PM on January 8, 2011

You can do an MA in Writing and Discourse. I don't know if the creative writing or formal language study though. But it is another keyword to look for.
posted by amethysts at 6:29 PM on January 8, 2011

I think the problem is that most programs would assume that the kind of grammar knowledge that you need for writing is knowledge that should be developed before the graduate level. If you want a deeper knowledge of grammar than what you should have from elementary school, high school, or undergrad, then generally it would be because you're interested in linguistics, not using knowledge of grammar to become a better writer.

Can you explain why you're interested in studying formal grammar? Might a solution be to do a writing program (MFA?) and either take linguistics courses as electives or audit undergraduate writing courses?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:33 PM on January 8, 2011

Can you say more about your long term goals? In particular, why are you interested in grad level study at all? Do you just want to learn grammar and latin or do you want to do research on those things? If you just want to learn, what about postbac courses?
posted by BlooPen at 6:35 PM on January 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

Nthing-- could you clarify where you'd ultimately like to end up, career-wise? Are you interested in teaching at the university or secondary level, for instance? In doing research on language or rhetoric? Becoming a freelance writer or journalist? Working in bio while writing on the side? What do you like to write, anyway-- and where does the Latin come in?

I ask only because a cursory glance around the academic blogosphere will show you that this is a really effing terrible time to voluntarily go to grad school in the humanities anywhere, much less at a school that's not especially selective, with an idiosyncratic program offering lots of electives. I think the approach where one thinks, "Hey, I'm interested in X! Let's go somewhere where I can take lots of courses to learn about X!" works well for undergrad, but in thinking about postgraduate education, you'd be far better off considering what you want to do than what you want to learn. And then find young people who currently do that thing, and ask them what grad programs, if any, they attended along the way.
posted by Bardolph at 6:49 PM on January 8, 2011 [1 favorite]

Look for programs in Composition and Rhetoric. These programs have at their center the study of writing process, writing as expession, argument, analysis of language usage and grammar and are quite often situated in Departments of English. Peter Elbow is a foundational scholar in this field.
posted by Pineapplicious at 7:03 PM on January 8, 2011

Linguistics is definitely not what you want, though that should be apparent if you look through the handbooks of a few grad programs.
posted by Maximian at 7:06 PM on January 8, 2011

I agree that if you want to do both creative writing and focus on the fundamentals of language in your coursework, you would be well served by doing an MFA that allows you to take courses in linguistics. Alternatively, maybe an MA in linguistics followed by a MFA? And I agree with others that unless you want to do research, a PhD is not the way to go. If you want to research the mechanisms of writing, education of writing, or some other topic related to how writers produce prose, linguistics might still be the area you are interested in, particularly text linguistics, translation theory, discourse analysis (some discourse analysts work with written texts as well as speech).

If you are more interested in producing your own writing, rather than doing research on the theory of writing, then a PhD is the wrong direction, and even an MFA or MA might be unnecessary. You can always see if a university will let you take a few courses without being enrolled towards a degree.
posted by lollusc at 7:06 PM on January 8, 2011

I'd look into linguistics. As far as I know, all English programs are, at bottom, programs in literary criticism. But, all English departments should offer classes focused on composition -- is there any reason you can't just take a composition course?

BTW, PhD funding is fairly common; MA funding is not. You often can, however, get a master's degree on the way to the PhD without doing it separately and beforehand.

I do think an MFA student would be allowed to audit courses in other departments, but you should check with any school you're looking at before enrolling and then finding out otherwise.
posted by J. Wilson at 7:16 PM on January 8, 2011

Composition and Rhetoric is probably what you want, as Pineapplicious suggests. Many universities have MA in English programs with this emphasis.
posted by Lobster Garden at 7:17 PM on January 8, 2011

Can you say more about your long term goals? In particular, why are you interested in grad level study at all? Do you just want to learn grammar and latin or do you want to do research on those things? If you just want to learn, what about postbac courses?

Seconding this. I have an MFA, and know that some programs have foreign language requirements, but I'm having trouble parsing your question and offering advice as your goals aren't clear. Also, what are your experiences with creative writing already?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:24 PM on January 8, 2011

a little google-fu did turn up the following:

http://english.csusb.edu/graduates/MA/

http://www.sfsu.edu/~english/?page=ma_comp
posted by J. Wilson at 7:29 PM on January 8, 2011

What you are describing is not an academic pursuit. By academic pursuit I mean a subject or topic that one can study in depth to extend the sum of human knowledge. "Grammar," being a constantly shifting boondoggle of inconsistent and often contradictory mandates issued by random individuals, does not constitute such a topic. The history of grammatical prescription, yes; the study of (the emergence and development of) central language authorities and how they propagate their influence, yes; but not "grammar," as a thing by itself, because it doesn't constitute an actual phenomenon.

For example, a doctoral student in English literature has the option to focus on an author or an aspect of an author's work. In the case of an obscure author, the goal might be to form a complete picture of the author's output. Or maybe it would be to situate the author in a literary or historical context. Or something along those lines. The same sorts of topics might occupy a doctoral student in a department of foreign languages, or medieval literature, or anything of that sort.

There are many branches of linguistics, and students in linguistics departments can do many different kinds of research. They can develop aspects of abstract frameworks that attempt to capture what it means to "know" a language, they can conduct experimental research into how the mind processes language, or they can study and document languages in the field. Many linguists work with English as their language — but only insofar as English exemplifies broader generalizations about human language as a whole. Similarly, historical linguists, who might "study the origins of English," are not specifically interested in applying their findings to English as a modern language.

As an aside, I had an acquaintance who lit up when I mentioned that I'd taken some linguistics classes in college. She was having an argument about whether "none" takes plural or singular, and she was appalled when I wouldn't take her side. "But that's what linguists do!" She was under the (bizarre) impression that linguists are some kind of language mercenaries, righting wrongs and enforcing rules. In fact, that's the farthest thing from the truth.
posted by Nomyte at 7:36 PM on January 8, 2011 [4 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks, guys. To clarify: indeed I'm not looking to do any kind of scholarly research to expand the boundaries of human knowledge, and that would rule out PhD programs, with the possible exception of a PhD in creative writing with its creative thesis.

Regarding my goals: if I did settle on this track, and that's certainly not a given, it would be with the intention of writing creatively as a career. And when I say that, I mean teaching as well as writing, because that seems to be the reality of it. My experiences with creative writing are a college course and the writing I've done in my own time. The reason I mention the rest of this-- Latin and grammar-- is out of my plain interest in the subjects, coupled with the suspicion that a thorough understanding of those fields would enhance a person's writing. Grammar in particular I would probably need to study on my own, and with Latin, I'd be taking undergrad courses. So the impression that I'm getting from all of this is that indeed an MFA might be the best thing for me, if I found the right place to do it.
posted by Nebula at 11:11 PM on January 8, 2011

Understanding Latin will not make you a better writer in English.
posted by freya_lamb at 6:32 AM on January 9, 2011 [3 favorites]

Best answer: With your goals, I'd try to take a single undergrad course in grammar. Most larger schools have something called Advanced Grammar, Grammar(s) of the English Language, etc. One course would be enough to give you want you're looking for. Also, I'm really unconvinced that you need Latin for your goals. It might be interesting or personally insightful, but as far as benefits to your writing, you'd be much better served spending that time just writing and getting feedback on it from an informal writing group or writing workshops associated with creative writing courses. A long time ago, I know the University of Iowa offered a course called something like "Greek and Latin Elements of the English Language," which sounds like a better course and better use of your time than really learning Latin.

Rhetoric and Composition doesn't, to me, sound like a path that will take you where you want to go. My rhetoric program, even at the MA level, was very theory focused. Anything that wasn't theory was focused on helping us teach writing (composition, not creative writing) to undergrads or fulfilling general English MA requirements like Linguistics and Lit courses. It's the most employable of the English grad-school tracks for this reason, but you will not learn to write creatively, and the teaching you'll do after a degree in that will almost certainly require you to teach freshman composition. Other programs may be different, but these are what the best programs do because that's how their people get jobs, so if you decide to investigate this route, do it very carefully.

How much feedback have you gotten on your creative writing thus far? Have you published anything? Before committing to a grad-level program, you may want to consider taking a couple of undergrad courses as a post-bac student or one or two grad courses as a non-degree student. That will prove to grad programs that you have some idea of what you're getting into, and the time spent developing particular pieces of writing will give you things to include in an application portfolio.

Just another thought...do you have any interest in science writing? With your current academic background, you could add a science writing or technical/professional writing certification of some sort and be vastly more employable than you will with a run-of-the-mill MFA. I think technical writing is a great way to learn grammar and to practice really disciplined writing, which can eventually help you with more creative writing, whether trying out some sci-fi themes in your creative pieces or learning to discipline yourself to write even when you don't feel like it. Traditional English majors can be terrible at technical writing and science writing because they are used to being rewarded for metaphorical or otherwise flowery (sometimes sloppy) language, so you may have a leg up on them because of your background.

And one other thought--you can almost always fit in more electives during a grad program than are required by your program. A full load at many schools is 5 or 6 courses per year. Many people, especially those who aren't teaching more than 1 course, find they can easily add a course almost every semester. Many PhD students in English do this to get additional secondary areas. Some take summer school courses, which are almost never required by a program. So don't feel like the number of electives in any given program is the max you can do. Some programs (mostly at the PhD level) also require foreign language competency, so you may be able to fit Latin in there in that requirement as well if you're really set on it.
posted by BlooPen at 12:22 PM on January 9, 2011

Maybe philology instead of linguistics? Sounds like more what you're looking for than linguistics. I'm not sure how popular philology is in the US; I think you might have more luck looking for programs in Europe.
posted by lesli212 at 3:32 PM on January 9, 2011