To which day does the moment of the new year belong?
October 20, 2008 3:56 PM Subscribe
Does the new year begin at midnight December 31, or midnight January 1st? (Assuming that 12-31 24:00 is the same instant as 01-01 00:00)
I've been thinking about this for a week, so indulge me in making a mountain out of this molehill...
I'm more curious about which reads more intuitively rather than the true answer (Which is "both").
Often midnight has more contextual information to make it unambiguous. ("Midnight last night" or "open 10am to midnight") When it doesn't I mentally attach it to the previous day. For example I would interpret "Midnight August 12th" as the isntant between the 12th and 13th.
So enter the New Year's question:
Version A) The New Year began on the stoke of midnight, December 31st.
Version B) The New Year began on the stoke of midnight, January 1st.
Version A seems odd to me because it's correlating the New Year with a date in the previous year. But version B doesn't set well either because it feels to me like it's 24 hours after New Years.
Would this bother anyone else, or would any sane writer simply use "12:01am January 1st."
I've been thinking about this for a week, so indulge me in making a mountain out of this molehill...
I'm more curious about which reads more intuitively rather than the true answer (Which is "both").
Often midnight has more contextual information to make it unambiguous. ("Midnight last night" or "open 10am to midnight") When it doesn't I mentally attach it to the previous day. For example I would interpret "Midnight August 12th" as the isntant between the 12th and 13th.
So enter the New Year's question:
Version A) The New Year began on the stoke of midnight, December 31st.
Version B) The New Year began on the stoke of midnight, January 1st.
Version A seems odd to me because it's correlating the New Year with a date in the previous year. But version B doesn't set well either because it feels to me like it's 24 hours after New Years.
Would this bother anyone else, or would any sane writer simply use "12:01am January 1st."
As a writer, I would go with "at the stroke of midnight" no date designation. I mean, we know when New Years is. (Yes it could be Chinese New Year or something else, but if you say NYE and you've established that it is your average Western land, that will be the default assumption.)
posted by dame at 4:08 PM on October 20, 2008
posted by dame at 4:08 PM on October 20, 2008
"Midnight August 12th" would be 12 a.m. on August 12th, so it would actually be the night between the 11th and 12th.
So "midnight January 1st" is the start of the new year, 12 a.m. January 1st. 11:59 p.m. December 31st would be the last minute of the old year.
posted by sararah at 4:08 PM on October 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
So "midnight January 1st" is the start of the new year, 12 a.m. January 1st. 11:59 p.m. December 31st would be the last minute of the old year.
posted by sararah at 4:08 PM on October 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
The old year ends on December 31st, and the new year begins on January 1st.
posted by Etaoin Shrdlu at 4:08 PM on October 20, 2008
posted by Etaoin Shrdlu at 4:08 PM on October 20, 2008
If forced between A and B, A is more intuitive to me.
But why not just include the missing context? eg. "The New Year began on the same stoke of midnight that ended December 31st."
posted by -harlequin- at 4:15 PM on October 20, 2008
But why not just include the missing context? eg. "The New Year began on the same stoke of midnight that ended December 31st."
posted by -harlequin- at 4:15 PM on October 20, 2008
I'm more curious about which reads more intuitively rather than the true answer (Which is "both").
No, it isn't.
12-31 24:00 is not a correctly formatted. 23:59:59 becomes 0:0:00 , not 24:00:00
Thus, 12/31/2008 23:59:59 will become 01/01/2009 0:0:00 exactly one second later.
The New Year in the Gregorian calendaring system begins at exactly 0:00:00 (midnight) on January 1st.
posted by namewithoutwords at 4:15 PM on October 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
No, it isn't.
12-31 24:00 is not a correctly formatted. 23:59:59 becomes 0:0:00 , not 24:00:00
Thus, 12/31/2008 23:59:59 will become 01/01/2009 0:0:00 exactly one second later.
The New Year in the Gregorian calendaring system begins at exactly 0:00:00 (midnight) on January 1st.
posted by namewithoutwords at 4:15 PM on October 20, 2008 [4 favorites]
Well, there's no such thing as "24:00", right? It's either 23:59 or 00:00. So yeah, 1/1 at 00:00 is new year.
posted by Ike_Arumba at 4:16 PM on October 20, 2008
posted by Ike_Arumba at 4:16 PM on October 20, 2008
Technically there is no such time "24:00:00". The last second of the day is 23:59:59. When that second is over, it becomes 00:00:00 of the new day.
As Class Goat pointed out, both "midnight" and "new year" refer to a point, not an interval. They refer to the transition between the two.
posted by dmd at 4:18 PM on October 20, 2008
As Class Goat pointed out, both "midnight" and "new year" refer to a point, not an interval. They refer to the transition between the two.
posted by dmd at 4:18 PM on October 20, 2008
Assuming that 12-31 24:00 is the same instant as 01-01 00:00
24:00 doesn't exist in that kind of timing. 23:59:59 ticks over to 00:00:00. Even a leap second is counted as 23:60.
Now, you're right that 'midnight' at the end of a time-range customarily attaches to the day preceding it. But customary language around time is always an inexact match with to-the-second timing, especially in the middle of the night, when cultures have historically set time to the sun.
Think of it this way: the introductory chimes of Big Ben (or the countdown to the ball dropping in Times Square) begin during 23:59 on the 31st, and the first chime or the ball falling denotes the beginning of the new year. Now, there are a few newspaper examples that place 'the stroke of midnight' in the day that begins -- for instance, this piece on the legalization of gay marriage in Massachusetts, and that's likely to be a style guide stipulation.
posted by holgate at 4:19 PM on October 20, 2008
24:00 doesn't exist in that kind of timing. 23:59:59 ticks over to 00:00:00. Even a leap second is counted as 23:60.
Now, you're right that 'midnight' at the end of a time-range customarily attaches to the day preceding it. But customary language around time is always an inexact match with to-the-second timing, especially in the middle of the night, when cultures have historically set time to the sun.
Think of it this way: the introductory chimes of Big Ben (or the countdown to the ball dropping in Times Square) begin during 23:59 on the 31st, and the first chime or the ball falling denotes the beginning of the new year. Now, there are a few newspaper examples that place 'the stroke of midnight' in the day that begins -- for instance, this piece on the legalization of gay marriage in Massachusetts, and that's likely to be a style guide stipulation.
posted by holgate at 4:19 PM on October 20, 2008
Also do be wary of the replies you get, especially here. Remember that it was the nerds who invented the y2kbug scam.
posted by Elmore at 4:24 PM on October 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Elmore at 4:24 PM on October 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
I would "favorite" your favortie answer plus Elmore's answer just as a heads up to others looking up this question in the future.
posted by Zambrano at 4:33 PM on October 20, 2008
posted by Zambrano at 4:33 PM on October 20, 2008
I agree with the way you use midnight, which would make the first choice correct. If your second one was correct, to me, it would mean that the first day of the new year is January 2, which it is obviously not. In my mind 12:00 AM on January 1st is the same as Midnight December 31.
Also, Y2K totally screwed up my Gameboy Camera and Super Mario Bros Deluxe.
posted by papayaninja at 4:37 PM on October 20, 2008
Also, Y2K totally screwed up my Gameboy Camera and Super Mario Bros Deluxe.
posted by papayaninja at 4:37 PM on October 20, 2008
"Does the new year begin at midnight December 31, or midnight January 1st?"
To me, those two times are 24 hours apart. I know it's not quite what you're asking, but I think it's just adding to the confusion.
Wikipedia has an entry on Midnight, which states that midnight is the very start of a new day, not the very end of another one. (They mention that "some styles" recognize 24:00 as referring to the end of a day, just to add to the confusion.)
I would say that midnight proper is the infinitesimal small time period between 23:59:59 on December 31st and 0:00:00 on January 1, and that the new year starts January 1, 0:00:00.
I think the real question here is about midnight, not about the new year. Wikipedia appears to agree with sararah, in that "midnight" is the very beginning of a day, not the very end. But clearly, many people (including myself) assume the opposite.
posted by fogster at 5:13 PM on October 20, 2008
To me, those two times are 24 hours apart. I know it's not quite what you're asking, but I think it's just adding to the confusion.
Wikipedia has an entry on Midnight, which states that midnight is the very start of a new day, not the very end of another one. (They mention that "some styles" recognize 24:00 as referring to the end of a day, just to add to the confusion.)
I would say that midnight proper is the infinitesimal small time period between 23:59:59 on December 31st and 0:00:00 on January 1, and that the new year starts January 1, 0:00:00.
I think the real question here is about midnight, not about the new year. Wikipedia appears to agree with sararah, in that "midnight" is the very beginning of a day, not the very end. But clearly, many people (including myself) assume the opposite.
posted by fogster at 5:13 PM on October 20, 2008
Here's how I look at it: from the comfort of the American midwest, I've heard that in London they start the new year at a completely different time. I think it's about 6PM in the God's Midwestern Time (GMT) that we use here. 6:00:00. That's clearly during the 6 o'clock hour.
By the same reasoning, the new year is in the 0:00 hour, not in the hour before that.
posted by jepler at 5:14 PM on October 20, 2008
By the same reasoning, the new year is in the 0:00 hour, not in the hour before that.
posted by jepler at 5:14 PM on October 20, 2008
According to the latest edition of The Associated Press Stylebook: "Do not put a 12 in front of [midnight]. It is part of the day that is ending, not the one that is beginning."
As a wee writer, I was taught not to use the times 12:00 a.m. or 12:00 p.m. because they are ambiguous. So I don't. But I can no longer find anything to back up this habit. Can anyone comment?
posted by jdroth at 5:21 PM on October 20, 2008
As a wee writer, I was taught not to use the times 12:00 a.m. or 12:00 p.m. because they are ambiguous. So I don't. But I can no longer find anything to back up this habit. Can anyone comment?
posted by jdroth at 5:21 PM on October 20, 2008
The first sounds correct tonight.
On Dec 31st: when's new years? Midnight tonight! (not midnight tomorrow, even though it is technically be 'tomorrow' when midnight hits.)
On Jan 1st: when was new years? Midnight last night, or midnight this morning. The first one sounds better.
My layman's reasoning: you sleep between midnight and morning so midnight belongs to the previous day. Even 2 or 3am belongs to the previous day if you're out late.
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:25 PM on October 20, 2008
On Dec 31st: when's new years? Midnight tonight! (not midnight tomorrow, even though it is technically be 'tomorrow' when midnight hits.)
On Jan 1st: when was new years? Midnight last night, or midnight this morning. The first one sounds better.
My layman's reasoning: you sleep between midnight and morning so midnight belongs to the previous day. Even 2 or 3am belongs to the previous day if you're out late.
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:25 PM on October 20, 2008
The first sounds correct to me, not tonight
even though it is, not even though it is be
sigh
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:27 PM on October 20, 2008
even though it is, not even though it is be
sigh
posted by PercussivePaul at 5:27 PM on October 20, 2008
In mathematical terms, it seems that the question you're asking corresponds to the question: is a year
(a) an open interval, in which case the instant marking the New Year doesn't belong to either of the years it's between
(b) a closed interval, in which case the instant marking the New Year belongs to both years
(c) a semi-open interval, closed at the start of the year and open at the end, in which case the instant marking the New Year belongs to the new year
(d) a semi-open interval, closed at the end of the year and open at the start, in which case the instant marking the New Year belongs to the old year?
I imagine there are plausible arguments to be put for all four. Personally I intuitively favor (c), on the basis of the way 24-hour time works. There is no such time as 24:00:00. At the end of a day, we go from 23:59:59.999 to 00:00:00.000, not from 24:00:00.000 to 00:00:00.001. Slicing the seconds ever more finely can only put more nines or zeroes after those decimal points; it won't change the 23 to a 24. And it's pretty clear to me that 00:00:00.000 is a time that belongs in the new day.
On preview, it's also pretty clear to me that anybody who does write 24:00:00 and expect my time input routines not to reject it is a troublemaking swine.
Thinking about intuitive responses to the idea of slicing time ever more finely is kind of interesting. Is there, in fact, a way to experience your own position in time, as compared to that of events around you, with sufficient precision to experience the instant we're talking about here? At the nominated instant, will some part of you be in the old year, and some other part in the new? In other words: how "thick", in milliseconds, is the subjective "now", and how fuzzy are its leading and trailing edges?
posted by flabdablet at 5:29 PM on October 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
(a) an open interval, in which case the instant marking the New Year doesn't belong to either of the years it's between
(b) a closed interval, in which case the instant marking the New Year belongs to both years
(c) a semi-open interval, closed at the start of the year and open at the end, in which case the instant marking the New Year belongs to the new year
(d) a semi-open interval, closed at the end of the year and open at the start, in which case the instant marking the New Year belongs to the old year?
I imagine there are plausible arguments to be put for all four. Personally I intuitively favor (c), on the basis of the way 24-hour time works. There is no such time as 24:00:00. At the end of a day, we go from 23:59:59.999 to 00:00:00.000, not from 24:00:00.000 to 00:00:00.001. Slicing the seconds ever more finely can only put more nines or zeroes after those decimal points; it won't change the 23 to a 24. And it's pretty clear to me that 00:00:00.000 is a time that belongs in the new day.
On preview, it's also pretty clear to me that anybody who does write 24:00:00 and expect my time input routines not to reject it is a troublemaking swine.
Thinking about intuitive responses to the idea of slicing time ever more finely is kind of interesting. Is there, in fact, a way to experience your own position in time, as compared to that of events around you, with sufficient precision to experience the instant we're talking about here? At the nominated instant, will some part of you be in the old year, and some other part in the new? In other words: how "thick", in milliseconds, is the subjective "now", and how fuzzy are its leading and trailing edges?
posted by flabdablet at 5:29 PM on October 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yup, there is no such thing as 24:00. The new year begins at 0:00 January 1st.
If that makes no sense to you, look at the language. Christmas Eve is the night before Christmas. Hallowe'en (All Hallows Eve) is the night before All Hallows Day. St. John's Eve (June 23rd) is the night before St. John the Baptist's Day (June 24th). New Year's Eve is the night before the new year.
My layman's reasoning: you sleep between midnight and morning so midnight belongs to the previous day. Even 2 or 3am belongs to the previous day if you're out late.
Which leads to a paradox on the street just before sunrise, when a club-hopping kid who's been up since noon runs into a garbage man who just woke up a few hours ago.
Kid: "It's yesterday!"
Garbage Man: "It's today!"
*Fabric of time rends, Hitler marches into the 21st century*
posted by CKmtl at 6:29 PM on October 20, 2008
If that makes no sense to you, look at the language. Christmas Eve is the night before Christmas. Hallowe'en (All Hallows Eve) is the night before All Hallows Day. St. John's Eve (June 23rd) is the night before St. John the Baptist's Day (June 24th). New Year's Eve is the night before the new year.
My layman's reasoning: you sleep between midnight and morning so midnight belongs to the previous day. Even 2 or 3am belongs to the previous day if you're out late.
Which leads to a paradox on the street just before sunrise, when a club-hopping kid who's been up since noon runs into a garbage man who just woke up a few hours ago.
Kid: "It's yesterday!"
Garbage Man: "It's today!"
*Fabric of time rends, Hitler marches into the 21st century*
posted by CKmtl at 6:29 PM on October 20, 2008
I vote for midnight belonging to the day that just finished.
So option "A"
posted by Xhris at 7:12 PM on October 20, 2008
So option "A"
posted by Xhris at 7:12 PM on October 20, 2008
(Assuming that 12-31 24:00 is the same instant as 01-01 00:00)
The problem here, as everyone has pointed out about, is that there is no 12/31 24:00. There IS, however, a 12/31 0:00, which is the first minute of New Years EVE. The New Year begins at 1/1 0:00. You mentally attach midnight to the previous day because it's more correct, as new days start at 12 (0:00) in the morning, and midnight is the point immediately preceding that (although, as sararah points out, midnight August 12th is the moment between August 11th and August 12th). Contextualization is there to help clarify the gap between the colloquial (and incorrect) and the more accurate conception of midnight. Despite the fact that the incorrect, colloquial sense of midnight is pretty common, enough people are going to read these sorts of statements of time the correct way that I'd say you almost always need context to clarify.
While midnight is defined as a point, I think the term "New Year" is pretty clear--it refers, literally, to the start of the new year, which begins on January 1st. That's not a transition, but a specific point in time. 11:59 on December 31st? New Year's Eve.
Also do be wary of the replies you get, especially here. Remember that it was the nerds who invented the y2kbug scam.
Oh, come on. Knowing the correct answer to this question is actually somewhat practical. Example: I teach, and often have my students hand in assignments at the end of the day. When I started, I assumed that they would understand that "midnight Tuesday" meant 0:00 on Tuesday. About 50% of my students handed things in by the due date and the other half handed things in right before 0:00 Wednesday morning, a day late. I've since learned to always clarify--I say 11:59 p.m. on Tuesday now.
Man, this is headache inducing.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:46 PM on October 20, 2008
The problem here, as everyone has pointed out about, is that there is no 12/31 24:00. There IS, however, a 12/31 0:00, which is the first minute of New Years EVE. The New Year begins at 1/1 0:00. You mentally attach midnight to the previous day because it's more correct, as new days start at 12 (0:00) in the morning, and midnight is the point immediately preceding that (although, as sararah points out, midnight August 12th is the moment between August 11th and August 12th). Contextualization is there to help clarify the gap between the colloquial (and incorrect) and the more accurate conception of midnight. Despite the fact that the incorrect, colloquial sense of midnight is pretty common, enough people are going to read these sorts of statements of time the correct way that I'd say you almost always need context to clarify.
While midnight is defined as a point, I think the term "New Year" is pretty clear--it refers, literally, to the start of the new year, which begins on January 1st. That's not a transition, but a specific point in time. 11:59 on December 31st? New Year's Eve.
Also do be wary of the replies you get, especially here. Remember that it was the nerds who invented the y2kbug scam.
Oh, come on. Knowing the correct answer to this question is actually somewhat practical. Example: I teach, and often have my students hand in assignments at the end of the day. When I started, I assumed that they would understand that "midnight Tuesday" meant 0:00 on Tuesday. About 50% of my students handed things in by the due date and the other half handed things in right before 0:00 Wednesday morning, a day late. I've since learned to always clarify--I say 11:59 p.m. on Tuesday now.
Man, this is headache inducing.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:46 PM on October 20, 2008
I should say, for clarity, that my students hand in assignments at the end of the day via email. I'm not dedicated enough to come in in the middle of the night!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:47 PM on October 20, 2008
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:47 PM on October 20, 2008
I say 11:59 p.m. on Tuesday now
Oh shoot. 11:59 p.m. on Monday. See what i mean by headache inducing?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:58 PM on October 20, 2008
Oh shoot. 11:59 p.m. on Monday. See what i mean by headache inducing?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:58 PM on October 20, 2008
In data acquisition and metering, it is extremely common to use (say) 2007-12-31 24:00:00 in preference to 2008-01-01 00:00:00 in time-series data. This makes sense, as the statistics you record for the time ending 24:00:00 were all measured on Dec 31, and should be recorded against that day. It also makes calculation of longer period statistics easy: for a monthly mean, one need only select all the records for 2007-12, rather than slicing and dicing the first and last records of the month.
It was this way in the first data logging system I used more than 15 years ago, and a revenue meter and SCADA system I just had commissioned last month operate the same way. So yes, 24:00 can exist, but only for specific applications and conventions.
posted by scruss at 11:01 PM on October 20, 2008
It was this way in the first data logging system I used more than 15 years ago, and a revenue meter and SCADA system I just had commissioned last month operate the same way. So yes, 24:00 can exist, but only for specific applications and conventions.
posted by scruss at 11:01 PM on October 20, 2008
Even though the canonical form for the 24-hour time at midnight is 00:00:00, assorted other abominations are indeed in use.
It's all down to backward compatibility, in my view. That number at the top of the clock would have been 0, not 12, if zero had arrived in Europe before clocks did.
posted by flabdablet at 12:10 AM on October 21, 2008
It's all down to backward compatibility, in my view. That number at the top of the clock would have been 0, not 12, if zero had arrived in Europe before clocks did.
posted by flabdablet at 12:10 AM on October 21, 2008
I have always assumed that "midnight" was the end of the day, unless the context specifies otherwise.
So to me, "the year ends at midnight, December 31st" and "the new year begins at midnight January 1st" refer to the same instant.
But without that context, "midnight, January 1st" on its own would mean the moment after 11:59:59 on January 1st.
posted by gjc at 7:28 AM on October 21, 2008
So to me, "the year ends at midnight, December 31st" and "the new year begins at midnight January 1st" refer to the same instant.
But without that context, "midnight, January 1st" on its own would mean the moment after 11:59:59 on January 1st.
posted by gjc at 7:28 AM on October 21, 2008
Midnight is the first second of a new day. The time 24:00 does not exist, it is 00:00 of the next day. Therefore, the first second of the new year is 00:00, Jan 1st (a.k.a Midnight Jan 1st).
Therefore, your version B is correct. Midnight on Dec 31 is one second after 23:59 on Dec 30.
--FCOD
posted by flyingcowofdoom at 8:54 AM on October 21, 2008
Therefore, your version B is correct. Midnight on Dec 31 is one second after 23:59 on Dec 30.
--FCOD
posted by flyingcowofdoom at 8:54 AM on October 21, 2008
As a wee writer, I was taught not to use the times 12:00 a.m. or 12:00 p.m. because they are ambiguous. So I don't. But I can no longer find anything to back up this habit. Can anyone comment?
I often publicize events and always use "12 Noon" for that very reason--12 a.m. vs 12 p.m. is very confusing for people, no matter that there is some rulebook somewhere that lays out very clearly which is which. (Though at least one rulebook admits that it is confusing and suggests noon/midnight instead of a.m./p.m.)
I don't usually have any events at 12 midnight, but recently had a deadline at that time and ended up specifying 11:59 p.m. instead. "12 midnight on October 24th" really is ambiguous--some people will interpret it as the morning before, some as the evening after.
To answer your question, I agree with those above that if you're talking about New Year specifically either A or B would work because everyone in your intended audience will know when it is. However for a random date, it would be wisest to eliminate the ambiguity by wording it something like this--and with this added clarification, either way works:
Version A) The New Year began on the stroke of midnight the evening of December 31st.
Version B) The New Year began on the stroke of midnight the morning of January 1st.
posted by flug at 11:31 AM on October 21, 2008
I often publicize events and always use "12 Noon" for that very reason--12 a.m. vs 12 p.m. is very confusing for people, no matter that there is some rulebook somewhere that lays out very clearly which is which. (Though at least one rulebook admits that it is confusing and suggests noon/midnight instead of a.m./p.m.)
I don't usually have any events at 12 midnight, but recently had a deadline at that time and ended up specifying 11:59 p.m. instead. "12 midnight on October 24th" really is ambiguous--some people will interpret it as the morning before, some as the evening after.
To answer your question, I agree with those above that if you're talking about New Year specifically either A or B would work because everyone in your intended audience will know when it is. However for a random date, it would be wisest to eliminate the ambiguity by wording it something like this--and with this added clarification, either way works:
Version A) The New Year began on the stroke of midnight the evening of December 31st.
Version B) The New Year began on the stroke of midnight the morning of January 1st.
posted by flug at 11:31 AM on October 21, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Class Goat at 4:01 PM on October 20, 2008