Is sex in America really so out of control?
May 28, 2008 12:27 AM Subscribe
It seems that as Americans, we have become more and more obsessed with meaningless, noncommittal sex. Are there still young people in America who care about lasting commitment and relationship values?
I could use some encouragement on the subject (or perhaps the truth would do).
I'm 24. I recently broke up with a girlfriend (my only true girlfriend to date, who I lived with for a couple of years) who cheated on me mercilessly for a few weeks, and as a person who feels that a relationship should always be based on trust and faithfulness, I have been devastated by this fact. Even before this happened, I felt like America was becoming obsessed even more so than in the past with sex. Before, there were figures like Michael Jackson who grabbed his crotch a bit excessively, or Pamela Anderson who had unusually exaggerated features, but things seemed sadly innocent compared with what I see today.
Today it's like the media and the people I see on the street don't even try to keep things tasteful or respectful. "Promiscuous Girl" was a hit single, "booty" is more common to hear these days than the word "beautiful", low-cut tight-ass pants are pretty much all I see on young women as young as 11 or 12 when I walk around town, and most of the male conversations I overhear seem to involve the word "bitches". For me, this is an extremely depressing sight.
I don't get it. If I could have had a single partner in my life, I would have been extremely happy with that (and I feel like as a guy I'm practically bending gender roles when I say that). Yet it seems like the focus for most young people is to get as much sex as possible before settling down. It's like sex with many people is accepted and embraced by most, but not me. I almost feel like I'M backwards for thinking that sex is something to be shared (both in terms of intercourse and social behavior) with one person you love. What happened to the interest in simply finding a fitting partner who you can stick to? Am I going to eventually hear from whatever sweet girl I date that she had a slutty phase and/or had sex with her friends a few times?
What I'm wondering now more than ever is if there are still young people in America who care about commitment and heart as much as they do about getting it on. And as an added question, am I in the minority for caring about how many men my woman had before me, or how many of her friends she's been with, or perhaps how tight her pants are when she goes out in public?
I could use some encouragement on the subject (or perhaps the truth would do).
I'm 24. I recently broke up with a girlfriend (my only true girlfriend to date, who I lived with for a couple of years) who cheated on me mercilessly for a few weeks, and as a person who feels that a relationship should always be based on trust and faithfulness, I have been devastated by this fact. Even before this happened, I felt like America was becoming obsessed even more so than in the past with sex. Before, there were figures like Michael Jackson who grabbed his crotch a bit excessively, or Pamela Anderson who had unusually exaggerated features, but things seemed sadly innocent compared with what I see today.
Today it's like the media and the people I see on the street don't even try to keep things tasteful or respectful. "Promiscuous Girl" was a hit single, "booty" is more common to hear these days than the word "beautiful", low-cut tight-ass pants are pretty much all I see on young women as young as 11 or 12 when I walk around town, and most of the male conversations I overhear seem to involve the word "bitches". For me, this is an extremely depressing sight.
I don't get it. If I could have had a single partner in my life, I would have been extremely happy with that (and I feel like as a guy I'm practically bending gender roles when I say that). Yet it seems like the focus for most young people is to get as much sex as possible before settling down. It's like sex with many people is accepted and embraced by most, but not me. I almost feel like I'M backwards for thinking that sex is something to be shared (both in terms of intercourse and social behavior) with one person you love. What happened to the interest in simply finding a fitting partner who you can stick to? Am I going to eventually hear from whatever sweet girl I date that she had a slutty phase and/or had sex with her friends a few times?
What I'm wondering now more than ever is if there are still young people in America who care about commitment and heart as much as they do about getting it on. And as an added question, am I in the minority for caring about how many men my woman had before me, or how many of her friends she's been with, or perhaps how tight her pants are when she goes out in public?
This post was deleted for the following reason: This seems a lot more like a ranty blog entry than an actual question. -- cortex
Response by poster: Best answer, right there, really. Everyone else should just ignore posting. Because I have no idea how anyone else could come up with a better answer than "you're arrogant, superior, and judgmental".
Just so you know, my examples were not based on anything that actually happened to me. I exaggerated to make a point, not to be "superior".
posted by Anthony84 at 12:46 AM on May 28, 2008
Just so you know, my examples were not based on anything that actually happened to me. I exaggerated to make a point, not to be "superior".
posted by Anthony84 at 12:46 AM on May 28, 2008
Am I going to eventually hear from whatever sweet girl I date that she had a slutty phase and/or had sex with her friends a few times?
Could be. You could date religious fundamentalists, there are quite a few who have similar views.
But yeah, American society is really open about sex. I doubt there is much variation across cultures as far as sexual preoccupation goes... some are just more open about it. If this bothers you, there are any number of places you could move where people are more discreet (hint: rural areas stateside, try Utah or Pennsylvania, and abroad the middle east and much of asia).
posted by phrontist at 12:52 AM on May 28, 2008
Could be. You could date religious fundamentalists, there are quite a few who have similar views.
But yeah, American society is really open about sex. I doubt there is much variation across cultures as far as sexual preoccupation goes... some are just more open about it. If this bothers you, there are any number of places you could move where people are more discreet (hint: rural areas stateside, try Utah or Pennsylvania, and abroad the middle east and much of asia).
posted by phrontist at 12:52 AM on May 28, 2008
Just so you know, my examples were not based on anything that actually happened to me. I exaggerated to make a point, not to be "superior".
and now you're being defensive.
read the last two paragraphs of your post. you're contrasting your values (although at the same time reinforcing gender based stereotypes), which you seem to want to appear as unique, with those of the rest of us shallow, sex-obsessed sluts. i stand by my earlier observation: you sound very bitter and are trying to make yourself feel better about your break up/cheating gf by trying to feel you have superior values.
posted by violetk at 12:55 AM on May 28, 2008
and now you're being defensive.
read the last two paragraphs of your post. you're contrasting your values (although at the same time reinforcing gender based stereotypes), which you seem to want to appear as unique, with those of the rest of us shallow, sex-obsessed sluts. i stand by my earlier observation: you sound very bitter and are trying to make yourself feel better about your break up/cheating gf by trying to feel you have superior values.
posted by violetk at 12:55 AM on May 28, 2008
Response by poster: I'm sorry you feel that way. That was not the intent of my post. I see nothing wrong with what I wrote, besides the fact that it's obviously a bit personal. I thought it might add meaning to the words if it was known what helped inspire my question.
posted by Anthony84 at 1:00 AM on May 28, 2008
posted by Anthony84 at 1:00 AM on May 28, 2008
I agree with voiletk. I understand that it might feel simpler to think "this one girl acted this way, and I know other girls that act this way, so it must mean they all act this way," but come on... you're not that stupid. People are different. All that's changed is it's more acceptable to be sexual, so sexual people feel more comfortable being themselves. As a non-promiscuous person, I think that's mostly a good thing. I do think it's terrible that your girlfriend mislead you, though, because that's about way more than being a sexual person.
Also, to be fair, the acceptance of sexual promiscuity has lead some women to be promiscuous who wouldn't be otherwise, which is pretty unfortunate. There is an extent to which it's now looked down upon as naive or immature to want a monogamous relationship, especially among women my age (20s). I think that's harmful. I don't think the solution is to be bitter about people who don't want a monogamous relationship.
Anyway, to quit chastising you and answer your question: I'm 24. I've been with my fiance for six years and hope to always be with him, and I've never had sex with anyone else and don't intend to. I've never found random sex appealing, partly because physical attraction does nearly nothing for me, and I think it's more efficient and less dangerous to masturbate if I just want to get off. I don't think there's anything wrong with people whose sexual arousal is different than mine, though.
Furthermore, even if my fiance were to die I don't think I would be able to be with anyone else afterward. I include this only because I think this might be soothing to you because it's evidence of the sort of thing I think people like us think about. Of course, I'm young (24) and I can't say I won't change my mind if that ever happens. I suspect I won't, though; I'm quite content to be alone, and I would rather have only had one meaningful relationship. Other types of people probably won't understand, and I'm fine with that. I know there are people that do, though.
Also, for whatever reassurance this might offer: my aunt and uncle have been together since they were 12, and have never been with anyone else. They're nearly 70 now. When my father was alive, he would grumble good-naturedly about my uncle, and say things like, "That asshole has never had his heart broken. Can you believe that? When your cousin's girlfriend broke up with him, neither of them even knew what to say to him!"
You really can't look to pop culture as evidence of how people actually are. It's just evidence of what's popular. Whenever some part of a culture has been oppressed in some way and then gains acceptance, the pop culture celebration lasts a good decade or more. You start seeing it everywhere, partly because it's new and interesting, but partly because they are relieved to be free to be themselves. If you can, try to disengage the more sexual people from the idea that they're ruining something for you. They're not. Instead, try to be happy they get to be themselves. You keep being yourself and you'll find a girl that's herself and it'll work out fine.
posted by Nattie at 1:00 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Also, to be fair, the acceptance of sexual promiscuity has lead some women to be promiscuous who wouldn't be otherwise, which is pretty unfortunate. There is an extent to which it's now looked down upon as naive or immature to want a monogamous relationship, especially among women my age (20s). I think that's harmful. I don't think the solution is to be bitter about people who don't want a monogamous relationship.
Anyway, to quit chastising you and answer your question: I'm 24. I've been with my fiance for six years and hope to always be with him, and I've never had sex with anyone else and don't intend to. I've never found random sex appealing, partly because physical attraction does nearly nothing for me, and I think it's more efficient and less dangerous to masturbate if I just want to get off. I don't think there's anything wrong with people whose sexual arousal is different than mine, though.
Furthermore, even if my fiance were to die I don't think I would be able to be with anyone else afterward. I include this only because I think this might be soothing to you because it's evidence of the sort of thing I think people like us think about. Of course, I'm young (24) and I can't say I won't change my mind if that ever happens. I suspect I won't, though; I'm quite content to be alone, and I would rather have only had one meaningful relationship. Other types of people probably won't understand, and I'm fine with that. I know there are people that do, though.
Also, for whatever reassurance this might offer: my aunt and uncle have been together since they were 12, and have never been with anyone else. They're nearly 70 now. When my father was alive, he would grumble good-naturedly about my uncle, and say things like, "That asshole has never had his heart broken. Can you believe that? When your cousin's girlfriend broke up with him, neither of them even knew what to say to him!"
You really can't look to pop culture as evidence of how people actually are. It's just evidence of what's popular. Whenever some part of a culture has been oppressed in some way and then gains acceptance, the pop culture celebration lasts a good decade or more. You start seeing it everywhere, partly because it's new and interesting, but partly because they are relieved to be free to be themselves. If you can, try to disengage the more sexual people from the idea that they're ruining something for you. They're not. Instead, try to be happy they get to be themselves. You keep being yourself and you'll find a girl that's herself and it'll work out fine.
posted by Nattie at 1:00 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Perhaps I didn't put it in the best way, but my intent was to understand how others perceive the current state of affairs when it comes to sex, not to vent my own shit. I merely feel like as a whole, young people in this country seem to be losing touch with traditional relationship values. Maybe the whole promiscuous attitude I see is just pop culture, but I think pop culture ultimately says something about where society is or is headed, or at least what advertisers and record companies think we want.
posted by Anthony84 at 1:16 AM on May 28, 2008
posted by Anthony84 at 1:16 AM on May 28, 2008
Well, I don't entirely agree with voiletk. I think I don't mean things in the same tone as he/she does.
I guess what I mean to say is there is a sense in which you can say, "Look at what you're saying, as an outside observer would look at it. You're angry at your girlfriend and instead of being angry at the cheating itself and her in particular, you're kind of misdirecting your anger everywhere. You are upset and despairing, so you think you might be the only one who values the things you do. Doesn't it sound arrogant to say that no one else values these things, and only you do? That is the hint that you're being silly, and that you're only thinking that way because you're so upset. You know better than to think, yes, in the 300 million or so people in the United States, you're the only one who values those things."
I guess I'm more sympathetic because most people who value monogamy ends up feeling that way at some point. I felt that way when my first boyfriend broke up with me. It is a silly, arrogant way of thinking and it's a good thing it usually only lasts during the phase after a relationship has ended. I don't think you're a horrible person for feeling that way right now, just normal. To the best of your ability, try to be rational and keep in mind that one girl cheating on you does not mean the entire country is full of people who will do the same thing.
And also, like I said, it's not being sexual that's the problem here. You shouldn't judge people based on their sexual desires and how they express their sexuality. What the problem is here is that your girlfriend betrayed you. Her sexuality was not the problem, her lack of honesty about her sexuality was the problem. She should not have been in a monogamous relationship with you if she wanted to have sex with other people. She should have broken up with you before ever touching anyone else. It's an issue with her, and an issue with honesty. It's not about women wearing short skirts or anything else like that.
It's also silly to think of it in terms of sexual people sort of ruining monogamy for you. The acceptance of sexual people doesn't ruin anything for you; even if the culture looked down on sexuality, you're still going to be successful with the same people and unsuccessful with the same people. If the culture was more prude, any girlfriend you had that is naturally inclined to want to have sex with lots of people would still cheat on you. This girl still would have cheated on you. If someone values monogamy, the culture isn't going to do a whole lot to change that. Some women, when they're not dating, might feel pressured into having sex with someone for fear of looking like a prude otherwise... but it doesn't go so far as to make her cheat when she's already in a relationship. If she doesn't want to cheat, she won't, regardless of what other people are doing.
posted by Nattie at 1:19 AM on May 28, 2008 [4 favorites]
I guess what I mean to say is there is a sense in which you can say, "Look at what you're saying, as an outside observer would look at it. You're angry at your girlfriend and instead of being angry at the cheating itself and her in particular, you're kind of misdirecting your anger everywhere. You are upset and despairing, so you think you might be the only one who values the things you do. Doesn't it sound arrogant to say that no one else values these things, and only you do? That is the hint that you're being silly, and that you're only thinking that way because you're so upset. You know better than to think, yes, in the 300 million or so people in the United States, you're the only one who values those things."
I guess I'm more sympathetic because most people who value monogamy ends up feeling that way at some point. I felt that way when my first boyfriend broke up with me. It is a silly, arrogant way of thinking and it's a good thing it usually only lasts during the phase after a relationship has ended. I don't think you're a horrible person for feeling that way right now, just normal. To the best of your ability, try to be rational and keep in mind that one girl cheating on you does not mean the entire country is full of people who will do the same thing.
And also, like I said, it's not being sexual that's the problem here. You shouldn't judge people based on their sexual desires and how they express their sexuality. What the problem is here is that your girlfriend betrayed you. Her sexuality was not the problem, her lack of honesty about her sexuality was the problem. She should not have been in a monogamous relationship with you if she wanted to have sex with other people. She should have broken up with you before ever touching anyone else. It's an issue with her, and an issue with honesty. It's not about women wearing short skirts or anything else like that.
It's also silly to think of it in terms of sexual people sort of ruining monogamy for you. The acceptance of sexual people doesn't ruin anything for you; even if the culture looked down on sexuality, you're still going to be successful with the same people and unsuccessful with the same people. If the culture was more prude, any girlfriend you had that is naturally inclined to want to have sex with lots of people would still cheat on you. This girl still would have cheated on you. If someone values monogamy, the culture isn't going to do a whole lot to change that. Some women, when they're not dating, might feel pressured into having sex with someone for fear of looking like a prude otherwise... but it doesn't go so far as to make her cheat when she's already in a relationship. If she doesn't want to cheat, she won't, regardless of what other people are doing.
posted by Nattie at 1:19 AM on May 28, 2008 [4 favorites]
I think pop culture ultimately says something about where society is or is headed, or at least what advertisers and record companies think we want.
Okay, if you want to think your girlfriend cheated on you because of culture and not because she, specifically, as an individual, happens to be a dishonest person, then go ahead. If you want to be angry because people who feel differently about sex than you do are finally free to express themselves, then go ahead. It sounds like you're not interested in listening to anything that doesn't back up what you already think, so I wonder why you posted this.
Your question was this: Are there still young people in America who care about lasting commitment and relationship values?
People said yes, of course, it's ridiculous to say otherwise... but you don't want to hear that. Not much else for anyone to say to you.
posted by Nattie at 1:23 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Okay, if you want to think your girlfriend cheated on you because of culture and not because she, specifically, as an individual, happens to be a dishonest person, then go ahead. If you want to be angry because people who feel differently about sex than you do are finally free to express themselves, then go ahead. It sounds like you're not interested in listening to anything that doesn't back up what you already think, so I wonder why you posted this.
Your question was this: Are there still young people in America who care about lasting commitment and relationship values?
People said yes, of course, it's ridiculous to say otherwise... but you don't want to hear that. Not much else for anyone to say to you.
posted by Nattie at 1:23 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
There are many people who share your moral views. You can find them anywhere in the country, even in New York or San Francisco. The thing to remember is that young people may not have chosen their morals yet. You thought your girlfriend shared your views; it turned out that she didn't, or that she changed her mind. That still leaves plenty of people like you out there.
I almost feel like I'M backwards for thinking that sex is something to be shared (both in terms of intercourse and social behavior) with one person you love.
Well, you're a little out of the mainstream at the moment, but this is a personal value judgement. There's no backwards or forwards about it. Also, I think you'll find that many people value both sex and love; they don't require that the two always be associated.
What happened to the interest in simply finding a fitting partner who you can stick to?
The "simply" disappeared. People decided that sex could be fun in and of itself, and that they should enjoy some of it as they search for a partner.
am I in the minority for caring about how many men my woman had before me, or how many of her friends she's been with, or perhaps how tight her pants are when she goes out in public?
I'd say you're probably in the majority there, actually.
As for being tasteful/respectful, women being called bitches, etc.: in my experience, this isn't correlated with noncommittal sex. That is, plenty of people have noncommittal sex but don't dress "slutty" or talk about women in a degrading way.
posted by equalpants at 1:26 AM on May 28, 2008
I almost feel like I'M backwards for thinking that sex is something to be shared (both in terms of intercourse and social behavior) with one person you love.
Well, you're a little out of the mainstream at the moment, but this is a personal value judgement. There's no backwards or forwards about it. Also, I think you'll find that many people value both sex and love; they don't require that the two always be associated.
What happened to the interest in simply finding a fitting partner who you can stick to?
The "simply" disappeared. People decided that sex could be fun in and of itself, and that they should enjoy some of it as they search for a partner.
am I in the minority for caring about how many men my woman had before me, or how many of her friends she's been with, or perhaps how tight her pants are when she goes out in public?
I'd say you're probably in the majority there, actually.
As for being tasteful/respectful, women being called bitches, etc.: in my experience, this isn't correlated with noncommittal sex. That is, plenty of people have noncommittal sex but don't dress "slutty" or talk about women in a degrading way.
posted by equalpants at 1:26 AM on May 28, 2008
nattie and i are saying the same thing; she just says it in a much more patient and gentle way than i have.
and fwiw: while i won't judge anyone for sexual curiosity and experimentation (and think that it's healthy on a lot of levels), i'm also a big fan of monogamy, trust, respect, love, and commitment. in fact, my bf and i just had a really great discussion about commitment and marriage last night.
what i'm not a big fan of is what nattie and i believe you are attempting to do here (and again, which she described much more eloquently than my sarcastic answers have done). i'm also not a fan of making across-the-board judgments about people because their values differ from yours.
posted by violetk at 1:28 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
and fwiw: while i won't judge anyone for sexual curiosity and experimentation (and think that it's healthy on a lot of levels), i'm also a big fan of monogamy, trust, respect, love, and commitment. in fact, my bf and i just had a really great discussion about commitment and marriage last night.
what i'm not a big fan of is what nattie and i believe you are attempting to do here (and again, which she described much more eloquently than my sarcastic answers have done). i'm also not a fan of making across-the-board judgments about people because their values differ from yours.
posted by violetk at 1:28 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
If you lived in sin with your partner for years outside of the holy bonds of matrimony, I don't think you should judge everyone else in the country as being some sort of deviant. To a large number of the populace, you're as much a sinner as the rest of us - fornication is fornication.
Now that we have that out of the way, let me tell you that yes: there are young people in America who care about "lasting commitment and relationship values." If this is the most important thing in your life, some sort of guarantee of faithfulness, I suggest you join an evangelical Christian church and abstain from premarital sex. Still, there are no guarantees. That's life.
Or you could take a deep breath and remember that there are millions of men and women in the U.S. who are monogamous and faithful even though you got an email from your grandma that says the kids today are all messed up. Your girlfriend's infidelity was her own error, her own crime. Don't excuse her behavior by saying "society made her do it." That's stupid.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:29 AM on May 28, 2008 [5 favorites]
Now that we have that out of the way, let me tell you that yes: there are young people in America who care about "lasting commitment and relationship values." If this is the most important thing in your life, some sort of guarantee of faithfulness, I suggest you join an evangelical Christian church and abstain from premarital sex. Still, there are no guarantees. That's life.
Or you could take a deep breath and remember that there are millions of men and women in the U.S. who are monogamous and faithful even though you got an email from your grandma that says the kids today are all messed up. Your girlfriend's infidelity was her own error, her own crime. Don't excuse her behavior by saying "society made her do it." That's stupid.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:29 AM on May 28, 2008 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Sigh. It was a bad idea to include the personal reasons. I even said I had thought about these things before I was cheated on. And I did, a lot. It's a concern to me, not just because of something that happened to me. The events in my life inspired me to ask the question, I thought I should include it, but that put the focus on the cheating rather than the question. And apparently made me into somewhat of an asshole. YES, fantastic job. Thank you for the honest answers though.
posted by Anthony84 at 1:31 AM on May 28, 2008
posted by Anthony84 at 1:31 AM on May 28, 2008
Hey, Anthony84, just a respectful suggestion: if you stay out of the thread, you'll eventually get answers that you find useful, even though some people may attack you. But if the thread just turns into a fight, it'll get deleted. So you might want to stay out.
posted by equalpants at 1:40 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by equalpants at 1:40 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
What happened to the interest in simply finding a fitting partner who you can stick to?
The people you're judging? This is what they're doing actually. Congrats to Nattie and others like her, but most of us would be miserable if we stuck with the first person we had sex with. That's called settling.
The best way, in my opinion, to find a fitting partner to stick it out with is by having a variety of romantic experiences. Who are you to call everyone else's sexual or romantic encounters meaningless and out of control? How can you really understand what goes on between other people in an intimate moment?
Anyway, I'm in line with violetk - you're bitter about your ex and looking to place blame somewhere, but my hunch is that one day you too will have an enjoyable casual sex experience and you'll think back on this post red faced. If we really want to get into it, what do you think about the fact that sex is a biological urge necessary for the continuation of the human race? And that, in the grand scheme of things, societies' attitudes towards sex are always changing? My point is that there is no definitive right and wrong when it comes to sex - it's up to the individual to decide what's best for him or her. My suggestion to you is instead of complaining about how slutty kids these days are, you put your energy into finding like-minded people you can be happy around.
Best of luck.
posted by infinityjinx at 1:49 AM on May 28, 2008
The people you're judging? This is what they're doing actually. Congrats to Nattie and others like her, but most of us would be miserable if we stuck with the first person we had sex with. That's called settling.
The best way, in my opinion, to find a fitting partner to stick it out with is by having a variety of romantic experiences. Who are you to call everyone else's sexual or romantic encounters meaningless and out of control? How can you really understand what goes on between other people in an intimate moment?
Anyway, I'm in line with violetk - you're bitter about your ex and looking to place blame somewhere, but my hunch is that one day you too will have an enjoyable casual sex experience and you'll think back on this post red faced. If we really want to get into it, what do you think about the fact that sex is a biological urge necessary for the continuation of the human race? And that, in the grand scheme of things, societies' attitudes towards sex are always changing? My point is that there is no definitive right and wrong when it comes to sex - it's up to the individual to decide what's best for him or her. My suggestion to you is instead of complaining about how slutty kids these days are, you put your energy into finding like-minded people you can be happy around.
Best of luck.
posted by infinityjinx at 1:49 AM on May 28, 2008
Response by poster: The question came out all wrong as is, I don't mind it getting deleted.
posted by Anthony84 at 1:50 AM on May 28, 2008
posted by Anthony84 at 1:50 AM on May 28, 2008
Best answer: There were no "good old days". People everywhere are obsessed with sex, just as they have always been; there are famous rakes and debauched women, bawdy houses and sexually explicit entertainments, just as there have always been; young men of every social class discuss women in vulgar terms, and girls compete for their attention with sexual favors - and there's always been someone scandalized and horrified by all of it. There have been cyclical "free love" movements since the Greeks; just in the last century, people had reactions exactly like yours in the 20s, 40s, 60s-70s, and 90s. They blamed alcohol, Darwin, suffragettes, television, the Negro, urbanization, and the Internet. You blame "pop culture", but today's entertainment is no more permissive or transgressive relative to that of the '70s than music and movies then were to those of the '40s. I'm sure some young guy got cheated on and dumped in 1972 and asked "Will every sweet girl I date turn out to have been getting it on with hippies in their psychedelic love vans?"
My grandfather was born in 1900, and lived in Paris after World War I; I recently inherited his journals from those years, and discovered that the man I knew as a gentleman farmer from Nashville and an erudite man of letters was at 20 a hard-partying conscienceless roué, practically a gigolo, who thought nothing of hiding his one-night stands from both his virginal (until she met him!) Parisienne ingénue girlfriend and the rich American woman who was paying his rent and buying his clothes. And that my grandmother, whom he met on a return trip a few years later, was in fact in Paris not on a family vacation as I'd grown up thinking, but rather to chaperone her cousin, who had gotten knocked up and was hustled off to Europe to be out of the public eye in Buffalo. I'm sure some young guy got cheated on and dumped in 1922 and asked "Will every sweet girl I date turn out to have been defiled by Bohemians in their speakeasies to the vulgar sound of Bix Beiderbecke's hot cornet?"
There's nothing new under the sun. So, get over it.
posted by nicwolff at 1:57 AM on May 28, 2008 [26 favorites]
My grandfather was born in 1900, and lived in Paris after World War I; I recently inherited his journals from those years, and discovered that the man I knew as a gentleman farmer from Nashville and an erudite man of letters was at 20 a hard-partying conscienceless roué, practically a gigolo, who thought nothing of hiding his one-night stands from both his virginal (until she met him!) Parisienne ingénue girlfriend and the rich American woman who was paying his rent and buying his clothes. And that my grandmother, whom he met on a return trip a few years later, was in fact in Paris not on a family vacation as I'd grown up thinking, but rather to chaperone her cousin, who had gotten knocked up and was hustled off to Europe to be out of the public eye in Buffalo. I'm sure some young guy got cheated on and dumped in 1922 and asked "Will every sweet girl I date turn out to have been defiled by Bohemians in their speakeasies to the vulgar sound of Bix Beiderbecke's hot cornet?"
There's nothing new under the sun. So, get over it.
posted by nicwolff at 1:57 AM on May 28, 2008 [26 favorites]
I think you might be missing the point of what we're saying to you. The cheating stuff doesn't particularly matter. What we're wondering is why you are so judgmental and despairing of people whose sexuality differs from yours. Look at Optimus Chyme's response: would you really appreciate it if someone with even narrower values than yours decided that you're just a terrible person because you had sex outside of marriage? (I guess I'm assuming you did have sex with your girlfriend.) Try to imagine yourself in that situation, and how unfair that might be. You know you're not a terrible person because you had sex with your girlfriend, so why would someone insist that you are? They must not understand you, right?
It's the same thing with your judging people who don't see sex the same way you see it. You don't understand them, and more than that, you're taking their preferences personally. You seem to feel threatened by it, but like I pointed out, nothing has really changed. All it does it let people who are so inclined be free to be themselves. In the past, these people felt the same way and society pressured them to hate themselves for it. Is that fair? Just like you don't want to feel like a bad person for having pre-marital sex, these people shouldn't have to feel like bad people for liking lots of sex. It doesn't make people who value monogamy decide it's stupid.
You have to understand that people simply don't value the same things. Sex isn't inherently meaningful, it has however much meaning someone gives to it. Some people place great meaning in their families, in careers, in hobbies, in philosophies. Would you appreciate it if they looked down on you because you didn't? Furthermore, people's genetics differ. Some have very high sex drives, some do not. Some people are highly aroused by physical appearance, some are not. People can't really help this. I happen to have a moderate sex drive and I am not aroused by physical appearance; monogamy is the only thing that does it for me. I could use this to feel superior to other people by looking down on them, but that would be immature, irrational, and bitchy. Furthermore, it wouldn't change anything and I would be arrogant and unlikeable.
In other words, other people do not think like you, perhaps cannot think like you, and it does not make them horrible people. Life will be a lot easier if you internalize that and don't just react negatively whenever other people are embraced by society.
Why is it so important to you that everyone think sex should be a monogamous thing and have few partners? Why is it not enough that you feel that way, and that you can find someone else who feels that way to share your life with? Why do you feel so personally invested in other people's sex lives?
If you seriously ask yourself those questions, I suspect the answer will end up being, "Because I want to be sure that I can find someone who feels the same way as me, and I'm scared that I won't because I don't see much evidence of these people." Plenty of people have that fear, but it's irrational. The answer isn't to look down on people whose sexuality differs from yours, or to blame them for everything. You would never have a relationship with those people, regardless of the culture. You are not competing with those people. Monogamous people seek out monogamous people.
You will be fine. Judging other people, though, is a pretty dick thing to do, and I don't think you want to be a dick. Where other people put their genitals doesn't have any real effect on your dating pool; they're mostly not putting their genitals where you intend to put yours. I really think the issue is that you don't know what to do with your fears and attaching them to society provides some sort of outlet. I think everyone has been there at some point. Doesn't make it true, though, or productive.
I hope that's helpful...
posted by Nattie at 2:02 AM on May 28, 2008
It's the same thing with your judging people who don't see sex the same way you see it. You don't understand them, and more than that, you're taking their preferences personally. You seem to feel threatened by it, but like I pointed out, nothing has really changed. All it does it let people who are so inclined be free to be themselves. In the past, these people felt the same way and society pressured them to hate themselves for it. Is that fair? Just like you don't want to feel like a bad person for having pre-marital sex, these people shouldn't have to feel like bad people for liking lots of sex. It doesn't make people who value monogamy decide it's stupid.
You have to understand that people simply don't value the same things. Sex isn't inherently meaningful, it has however much meaning someone gives to it. Some people place great meaning in their families, in careers, in hobbies, in philosophies. Would you appreciate it if they looked down on you because you didn't? Furthermore, people's genetics differ. Some have very high sex drives, some do not. Some people are highly aroused by physical appearance, some are not. People can't really help this. I happen to have a moderate sex drive and I am not aroused by physical appearance; monogamy is the only thing that does it for me. I could use this to feel superior to other people by looking down on them, but that would be immature, irrational, and bitchy. Furthermore, it wouldn't change anything and I would be arrogant and unlikeable.
In other words, other people do not think like you, perhaps cannot think like you, and it does not make them horrible people. Life will be a lot easier if you internalize that and don't just react negatively whenever other people are embraced by society.
Why is it so important to you that everyone think sex should be a monogamous thing and have few partners? Why is it not enough that you feel that way, and that you can find someone else who feels that way to share your life with? Why do you feel so personally invested in other people's sex lives?
If you seriously ask yourself those questions, I suspect the answer will end up being, "Because I want to be sure that I can find someone who feels the same way as me, and I'm scared that I won't because I don't see much evidence of these people." Plenty of people have that fear, but it's irrational. The answer isn't to look down on people whose sexuality differs from yours, or to blame them for everything. You would never have a relationship with those people, regardless of the culture. You are not competing with those people. Monogamous people seek out monogamous people.
You will be fine. Judging other people, though, is a pretty dick thing to do, and I don't think you want to be a dick. Where other people put their genitals doesn't have any real effect on your dating pool; they're mostly not putting their genitals where you intend to put yours. I really think the issue is that you don't know what to do with your fears and attaching them to society provides some sort of outlet. I think everyone has been there at some point. Doesn't make it true, though, or productive.
I hope that's helpful...
posted by Nattie at 2:02 AM on May 28, 2008
You may be interested in the work of Dawn Eden, a former sexcapading rock journalist who recently wrote a book on the joys of chastity, called The Thrill of the Chaste.
posted by keith0718 at 2:19 AM on May 28, 2008
posted by keith0718 at 2:19 AM on May 28, 2008
Response by poster: I am convinced that the tone of the question is what causes you all to think that I am some kind of judgmental asshole. But I've been saying that the question was worded too personally for a reason. My question is not "why are these evil sex freaks fucking each other without being in a relationship". That's not the point of my question, that's not how I think about people, that's not even what I said, and that's what you all seem to believe it's about. I put a negative spin on it because I've been hurt and I'm feeling like a prick today. Like I said, it was a mistake for me to put my personal feelings into the question. SORRY. The least all of you could do is drop the "you're a judgmental asshole" bit when I apologize for the bad vibe I gave off. I'm not a judgmental asshole, at least not on a daily basis, I just don't know how to ask a proper question.
That being said, besides the harsh words towards me for my badly defined argument which I admit deserves to be trashed, I appreciate all of you taking the time to respond to my meager shit. Granted, it will undoubtedly be deleted soon.
posted by Anthony84 at 2:23 AM on May 28, 2008
That being said, besides the harsh words towards me for my badly defined argument which I admit deserves to be trashed, I appreciate all of you taking the time to respond to my meager shit. Granted, it will undoubtedly be deleted soon.
posted by Anthony84 at 2:23 AM on May 28, 2008
I almost feel like I'M backwards for thinking that sex is something to be shared (both in terms of intercourse and social behavior) with one person you love.
You may or may not be backward, although I fail to see why an actual adult would care about whether he was one of the cool kids or not, but your snide, holier-than-thou attitude to people around you in general, and women in particular, will likely lead to people thinking very little of you.
posted by rodgerd at 2:30 AM on May 28, 2008
You may or may not be backward, although I fail to see why an actual adult would care about whether he was one of the cool kids or not, but your snide, holier-than-thou attitude to people around you in general, and women in particular, will likely lead to people thinking very little of you.
posted by rodgerd at 2:30 AM on May 28, 2008
"Is sex in America really so out of control?"
Sex in America has been out of control since some crewman shipping with Columbus picked up syphillis.
posted by paulsc at 2:35 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sex in America has been out of control since some crewman shipping with Columbus picked up syphillis.
posted by paulsc at 2:35 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
As a guy around your age who has thought about much of the same stuff, I'd like to weigh in on this.
Most guys care about how many guys a woman has been with before them, most guys care about what their girlfriend wears, etc. Yes, people are having more casual sex, and people who really care about monogamy are getting fewer and fewer with each passing decade. The thing is, there is nothing inherently superior about monogamy, or having fewer partners. And you are potentially eliminating a lot of amazing people by judging people harshly based on those criteria.
I know you say this isn't about your "shit," but when you open the question with a personal anecdote it really becomes about that. To that end, you just sound naive. You have only been with one girl, and like all people and their first times you think there is something sacred about it, and you have just discovered there isn't. Hopefully when that "sweet girl who had a slutty phase" comes around, you'll realize that any issues you may have with her sexual history are just that - your issues. And hopefully you have the self-awareness by then to realize where your belief system ends, and where jealousy, insecurity, and resentment begin.
On the issue of people being judgemental. I think violetk was way too harsh and a bit hypocritical, and any criticism directed at you after that is more likely derived from your feeling the need to comment/defend/debate in your own thread (incredibly bad form), than from your original question.
posted by paradoxflow at 3:20 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Most guys care about how many guys a woman has been with before them, most guys care about what their girlfriend wears, etc. Yes, people are having more casual sex, and people who really care about monogamy are getting fewer and fewer with each passing decade. The thing is, there is nothing inherently superior about monogamy, or having fewer partners. And you are potentially eliminating a lot of amazing people by judging people harshly based on those criteria.
I know you say this isn't about your "shit," but when you open the question with a personal anecdote it really becomes about that. To that end, you just sound naive. You have only been with one girl, and like all people and their first times you think there is something sacred about it, and you have just discovered there isn't. Hopefully when that "sweet girl who had a slutty phase" comes around, you'll realize that any issues you may have with her sexual history are just that - your issues. And hopefully you have the self-awareness by then to realize where your belief system ends, and where jealousy, insecurity, and resentment begin.
On the issue of people being judgemental. I think violetk was way too harsh and a bit hypocritical, and any criticism directed at you after that is more likely derived from your feeling the need to comment/defend/debate in your own thread (incredibly bad form), than from your original question.
posted by paradoxflow at 3:20 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
As others have mentioned, there is a wide spectrum of behavior, from those who don't kiss or touch prior to marriage to those who do everything on the first date. Really. Even in my 30's I know people at each end of the continuum and all along its length. I think you hear more about the extreme ends, as we always do with behavioral continua.
As nicwolff said, people have always been sexual and always will be. The difference is in how much it is discussed and how much it is controlled, by religion and government and cultural taboos and mores. When my parents were in high school in the 60's, girls, lots of girls, got pregnant, but it was the shame of the century and they were sent packing. Now girls, lots of girls, get pregnant but it is not a big deal.
We should celebrate that now, behaviors are acceptable all along the continuum. Anything else is a Taliban state of arbitrary or artificial control of the range of natural behavioral expression.
Some people's favorite color is purple; others like blue. You can find tons of people to date who like the same color you like while being perfectly happy that others find a different color their favorite.
posted by frumious bandersnatch at 3:32 AM on May 28, 2008
As nicwolff said, people have always been sexual and always will be. The difference is in how much it is discussed and how much it is controlled, by religion and government and cultural taboos and mores. When my parents were in high school in the 60's, girls, lots of girls, got pregnant, but it was the shame of the century and they were sent packing. Now girls, lots of girls, get pregnant but it is not a big deal.
We should celebrate that now, behaviors are acceptable all along the continuum. Anything else is a Taliban state of arbitrary or artificial control of the range of natural behavioral expression.
Some people's favorite color is purple; others like blue. You can find tons of people to date who like the same color you like while being perfectly happy that others find a different color their favorite.
posted by frumious bandersnatch at 3:32 AM on May 28, 2008
Am I going to eventually hear from whatever sweet girl I date that she had a slutty phase and/or had sex with her friends a few times?
Statistically, probably yes, depending on what you mean by "slutty." Here and here are two articles about average numbers of claimed sexual partners. Expecting someone to wait to have sex until she meets you, if you haven't been willing to wait yourself, may be a common feeling, but honestly isn't very fair.
am I in the minority for caring about how many men my woman had before me, or how many of her friends she's been with, or perhaps how tight her pants are when she goes out in public?
Nope, you are probably in the majority, although many women will understandably not be pleased if you make their lives hell over those issues. The key comes in whether you can express these concerns in loving ways or in controlling and judgmental ways, and in whether you find a woman who is interested in having your involvement in those parts of her life. Fundamentally, her wearing tight pants is her business, not yours; her pants are not yours to control. That said, any relationship is a negotiation, and it would be silly to pretend that how you dress does not affect her and vice versa.
posted by Forktine at 3:43 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Statistically, probably yes, depending on what you mean by "slutty." Here and here are two articles about average numbers of claimed sexual partners. Expecting someone to wait to have sex until she meets you, if you haven't been willing to wait yourself, may be a common feeling, but honestly isn't very fair.
am I in the minority for caring about how many men my woman had before me, or how many of her friends she's been with, or perhaps how tight her pants are when she goes out in public?
Nope, you are probably in the majority, although many women will understandably not be pleased if you make their lives hell over those issues. The key comes in whether you can express these concerns in loving ways or in controlling and judgmental ways, and in whether you find a woman who is interested in having your involvement in those parts of her life. Fundamentally, her wearing tight pants is her business, not yours; her pants are not yours to control. That said, any relationship is a negotiation, and it would be silly to pretend that how you dress does not affect her and vice versa.
posted by Forktine at 3:43 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
and as a person who feels that a relationship should always be based on trust and faithfulness, I have been devastated by this fact.
You're doomed to repeat this cycle if you continue to define your relationships by what you will "allow" the other person to do. That's not a relationship, it's a power play, and sadly that's probably how most couples are defined today, indeed.
The "trust" part of that is fine, but ask yourself what "faithfulness" means and why you demand it. It seems to me that you're the one hung up on sex, here. It's just sex.
posted by rokusan at 4:18 AM on May 28, 2008
You're doomed to repeat this cycle if you continue to define your relationships by what you will "allow" the other person to do. That's not a relationship, it's a power play, and sadly that's probably how most couples are defined today, indeed.
The "trust" part of that is fine, but ask yourself what "faithfulness" means and why you demand it. It seems to me that you're the one hung up on sex, here. It's just sex.
posted by rokusan at 4:18 AM on May 28, 2008
Statistically? Yes, you may hear that the sweet girl you date had a slutty phase -- depending on your definition of "slutty."
When people are young, they make mistakes. They can sleep with someone they thought was right for them and then it goes sour. They can be deceived by someone. They can try something on a whim and regret it later. All of those things can cause someone who has perfectly fine values to sleep with someone once and then not ever again. If your definition of "slutty" is as black-and-white as "someone who just has sex with someone once," well, you're going to think of them as slutty.
But -- something tells me your definition of "slutty" is a little different than that -- that it has to do with honesty and respect. And....well, that doesn't just affect someone's sexual behavior, does it?
So to answer your question -- yes, there are girls who do believe in committment and fidelity. There are also girls who will come to believe in that in a few years and are going through a "phase" now. The issue isn't what someone did in their past, it's how they are now (hell, would hearing that your ex volunteered for charity and worked in a food bank three years ago make you feel any better about how she treated you now?).
I have a question for you, too -- is the sweet girl you eventually meet going to find out that YOU had a slutty phase?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:33 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
When people are young, they make mistakes. They can sleep with someone they thought was right for them and then it goes sour. They can be deceived by someone. They can try something on a whim and regret it later. All of those things can cause someone who has perfectly fine values to sleep with someone once and then not ever again. If your definition of "slutty" is as black-and-white as "someone who just has sex with someone once," well, you're going to think of them as slutty.
But -- something tells me your definition of "slutty" is a little different than that -- that it has to do with honesty and respect. And....well, that doesn't just affect someone's sexual behavior, does it?
So to answer your question -- yes, there are girls who do believe in committment and fidelity. There are also girls who will come to believe in that in a few years and are going through a "phase" now. The issue isn't what someone did in their past, it's how they are now (hell, would hearing that your ex volunteered for charity and worked in a food bank three years ago make you feel any better about how she treated you now?).
I have a question for you, too -- is the sweet girl you eventually meet going to find out that YOU had a slutty phase?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:33 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
It sounds to me like you're confusing monogamy and character. Faithful, committed, honest people can have multiple partners. Lying, cheating, amoral people can lie and cheat their way through only one or two. How many sexual partners a woman or man has had is not going to be a perfect (or even a good) indicator of the values you think are so important. If you're looking for a litmus test for morality, this is not a useful one.
I agree with everyone who has said that nothing has changed. People have always been this way, they're just allowed to admit it now.
posted by prefpara at 5:13 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
I agree with everyone who has said that nothing has changed. People have always been this way, they're just allowed to admit it now.
posted by prefpara at 5:13 AM on May 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
You sound like me after my high school sweetheart broke up with me. I was so earnest "Oh! She deflowered me and Left!" although, uh, I'd done the same to her. I told on her to her parents for drinking. I looked down at everyone for their slutty, slutty ways. Time passed; I went to college. And still I looked down at the skanks, holding myself to some supposed higher standard (and missing all the fun). Finally, I let loose about the time I got out of college and into the real world.
I occasionally run into people I knew in my uptight days. They tell me I was insufferable, and how my scolding (even if I didn't say it out loud, they could see it in my eyes) drove them off, and how hey, they're glad I finally got over myself.
posted by notsnot at 5:47 AM on May 28, 2008
I occasionally run into people I knew in my uptight days. They tell me I was insufferable, and how my scolding (even if I didn't say it out loud, they could see it in my eyes) drove them off, and how hey, they're glad I finally got over myself.
posted by notsnot at 5:47 AM on May 28, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
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please. come on. you just broke up with a girlfriend who cheated on you so of course you're gonna be all bitter and negative about love and sex.
and based on pretty much your entire post and comments like Am I going to eventually hear from whatever sweet girl I date that she had a slutty phase and/or had sex with her friends a few times?, you're also not the only person who will judge a girl for having a sexual history.
in fact, your whole post sounds extremely arrogant, superior, and judgmental. which is extremely unattractive. get over yourself. of course you're not the only person in the whole damned world who cares about love and commitment.
posted by violetk at 12:39 AM on May 28, 2008 [15 favorites]