How can I get my college prof to admit he is wrong, and give me the marks I deserve?
April 9, 2008 6:52 AM Subscribe
College prof keeps marking my math tests incorrectly. What do I do?
Heya Metafilter,
I am in community college now, planning on going to something a little more serious when I graduate this year.
I am getting a 99% in my math course, doing really well. Recently, however, my mark has taken a hit due to the fact that my math prof marked 2 questions that were correct as incorrect due to the fact that he does not fully understand the answer.
I tried explaining the answer to the question to him in class, but he does not like to be told he is wrong and went around the question. It was clear in his explaination to the class that he did not know how I arrived at the answer I did and said "well, what I do know is that you got it wrong"
Short of actually sitting this guy down and teaching him how to do these problems, how can I get the marks I deserve?
Has anyone else ever had this issue? Should I go to the dean? I really don't want to cause a scene or harm this prof in any way.
Please advise.
Heya Metafilter,
I am in community college now, planning on going to something a little more serious when I graduate this year.
I am getting a 99% in my math course, doing really well. Recently, however, my mark has taken a hit due to the fact that my math prof marked 2 questions that were correct as incorrect due to the fact that he does not fully understand the answer.
I tried explaining the answer to the question to him in class, but he does not like to be told he is wrong and went around the question. It was clear in his explaination to the class that he did not know how I arrived at the answer I did and said "well, what I do know is that you got it wrong"
Short of actually sitting this guy down and teaching him how to do these problems, how can I get the marks I deserve?
Has anyone else ever had this issue? Should I go to the dean? I really don't want to cause a scene or harm this prof in any way.
Please advise.
Don't sweat it. You can't win all the time, and you are getting an A. Let him hold on to his smug sense of self-righteousness and count yourself lucky you only have to work with him for a semester or two at most.
If you really must prove yourself right, write out a proof of your answer that someone in high school can understand, and submit it to him after grades are done. That shows you are worried more about the verity of your claims than the grade on your paper.
posted by Roger Dodger at 7:00 AM on April 9, 2008
If you really must prove yourself right, write out a proof of your answer that someone in high school can understand, and submit it to him after grades are done. That shows you are worried more about the verity of your claims than the grade on your paper.
posted by Roger Dodger at 7:00 AM on April 9, 2008
Do you have anyone else you've shown the problem too who agrees with you? I'd try to run it by a couple people who know the stuff well and make sure you're thinking about the problem correctly.
And why not explain the problem here so we can look at it?
posted by delmoi at 7:00 AM on April 9, 2008
And why not explain the problem here so we can look at it?
posted by delmoi at 7:00 AM on April 9, 2008
In my experience, mostly as a student, 99% of the time the person in your shoes is mistaken about how correct he or she is. But no matter what, the best way to approach this is with some humility. Go to your professor's office hours or schedule an appointment and say that you don't understand why what you did was wrong and ask him to explain it to you. Phrase it in terms of wanting his help to understand this particular point in the material, not antagonistically in terms of getting full credit. It's never appropriate to discuss the grading of one student's problem during class time.
posted by Schismatic at 7:01 AM on April 9, 2008 [14 favorites]
posted by Schismatic at 7:01 AM on April 9, 2008 [14 favorites]
Ditto parman. You are paying for a quality education. Don't be afraid to insist you get what you pay for. Be polite but direct and keep perfect records. Good luck!!
posted by pearlybob at 7:01 AM on April 9, 2008
posted by pearlybob at 7:01 AM on April 9, 2008
Um, take your 99% and be very happy. Don't sweat the small stuff. Math tests (quizzes?) are small stuff. Very small.
posted by zpousman at 7:02 AM on April 9, 2008
posted by zpousman at 7:02 AM on April 9, 2008
Hmm. I teach English composition in community college, not math, but here's what I'd suggest to my students. If you feel that your work was graded incorrectly, don't bring it up in the middle of class; wait until after class to talk to me (instructors don't always respond graciously when their mistakes are pointed out in the middle of class; you're more likely to get a defensive reaction). If we can't resolve it right away, we'd set up a time to talk. If I was firm on the grade I gave you and convinced of my rationale for that grade, but you disagreed, I would invite you to go over my head to the department chair.
(As the instructor, I'd immediately e-mail/call the chair to let him/her know that you were coming and make sure I was on solid ground with my ass securely covered.)
Generally, the best first action, though, is to request an individual conference with your instructor. Go in with a positive, not aggressive, attitude, and be prepared to demonstrate your thesis (solve the problem step-by-step).
posted by girlbowler at 7:05 AM on April 9, 2008 [3 favorites]
(As the instructor, I'd immediately e-mail/call the chair to let him/her know that you were coming and make sure I was on solid ground with my ass securely covered.)
Generally, the best first action, though, is to request an individual conference with your instructor. Go in with a positive, not aggressive, attitude, and be prepared to demonstrate your thesis (solve the problem step-by-step).
posted by girlbowler at 7:05 AM on April 9, 2008 [3 favorites]
Just n-thing that you should double-check your work against another qualified expert in the field, as delmoi suggested. There are a few professional mathematicians on Metafilter, so its possible you could seek one of us out or post the problem in the thread.
posted by onalark at 7:06 AM on April 9, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by onalark at 7:06 AM on April 9, 2008 [2 favorites]
I had this exact same experience taking "Intro to Computers" in community college. I got pretty exercised over the whole situation (it's just not FAIR!!), then took a step back and realized I was getting an A and then moving on to bigger and better things, whereas this poor professor was stuck teaching a bunch of clueless middle-aged folks what the internet was.
Until it lowers your grade, document it all but let it go. Then, if it starts to lower your grade, you're prepared with the tools you need to make sure you get credit for your hard work.
posted by crinklebat at 7:06 AM on April 9, 2008
Until it lowers your grade, document it all but let it go. Then, if it starts to lower your grade, you're prepared with the tools you need to make sure you get credit for your hard work.
posted by crinklebat at 7:06 AM on April 9, 2008
Unfortunately, you've already caused a scene by embarassing him in front of the class when you told him "you got it wrong". Make an appointment to see him privately in his office to discuss the matter, but don't be surprised if he's not terribly cooperative at first. If you're actually right, you have to be able to prove it to him, and if not, he should be able to explain why. If you're still not satisfied, then go to the dean.
posted by Koko at 7:06 AM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Koko at 7:06 AM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
ditto girlbowler while stressing the "don't bring future events up in class". Not only are you putting the professor on the defensive and making him look foolish (if he's a fool everyone already knows) but you are wasting your classmates time.
posted by Mitheral at 7:12 AM on April 9, 2008
posted by Mitheral at 7:12 AM on April 9, 2008
I think Schismatic's nailed it, and I also think you should post the problem and your and the prof's solutions.
I don't think you should ignore it. For every student that doesn't pipe up if they think there's something wrong there's probably ten more getting confused by the error but aren't confident enough to say anything - students never ask questions often enough. And if they're really wrong and refusing to accept it, well, someone teaching maths who won't allow themselves to be corrected if they make a mistake is not enough of a mathematician to be teaching the subject.
Going over their head to the dean is going a step too far I think, so definitely try to get them to explain it to you until either you or the prof reach an agreement.
posted by edd at 7:13 AM on April 9, 2008
I don't think you should ignore it. For every student that doesn't pipe up if they think there's something wrong there's probably ten more getting confused by the error but aren't confident enough to say anything - students never ask questions often enough. And if they're really wrong and refusing to accept it, well, someone teaching maths who won't allow themselves to be corrected if they make a mistake is not enough of a mathematician to be teaching the subject.
Going over their head to the dean is going a step too far I think, so definitely try to get them to explain it to you until either you or the prof reach an agreement.
posted by edd at 7:13 AM on April 9, 2008
I think a different attitude will help you in the future. Instead of "You're wrong and here's why" in the middle of class, approaching him during office hours might be a better bet. Try, "I got a different answer to this question, can we go through the problem together?" Both of you may learn something new.
In this instance, however, I'm voting with those who say "take your 99% and be happy with it."
posted by ferociouskitty at 7:14 AM on April 9, 2008
In this instance, however, I'm voting with those who say "take your 99% and be happy with it."
posted by ferociouskitty at 7:14 AM on April 9, 2008
It sounds as though you're being a know-it-all. Don't be that know-it-all. Your instructor may have made a mistake. It's also possible that you incorrectly understood the problem. Confronting the teacher in class and telling him he was wrong was needlessly confrontational. When I was a regular math instructor, I certainly made mistakes in grading. If the student was cool about it, I simply changed the grade and thanked them for their candor and reasonableness. If they were an ass about it, I made *damn* sure that they never got the benefit of the doubt on another test question again. Often, if a student misplaced a minus sign or simply punched numbers into the calculator incorrectly, I'd still give them 9/10. But, vindictive and petty it may sound, the braggarts and confrontational students received very little grace for the minuscule mistakes.
Part of school is knowing when to hold 'em, and knowing when to fold 'em. You're getting an "A" in the class. Pick better battles.
posted by notsnot at 7:17 AM on April 9, 2008
Part of school is knowing when to hold 'em, and knowing when to fold 'em. You're getting an "A" in the class. Pick better battles.
posted by notsnot at 7:17 AM on April 9, 2008
This question is unanswerable until we know that the method you used for solving the math problem is correct. You need to let us know that other qualified people have agreed with your solution, or have the math mefites look at the problem and do that for you.
posted by meerkatty at 7:25 AM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by meerkatty at 7:25 AM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
This question is unanswerable until we know that the method you used for solving the math problem is correct.
Our knowledge of the math problems in the OP is irrelevant to the question asked. The OP asks how to handle a situation in which Tachoh feels that the grade received is not the grade earned:
Short of actually sitting this guy down and teaching him how to do these problems, how can I get the marks I deserve?
Has anyone else ever had this issue? Should I go to the dean? I really don't want to cause a scene or harm this prof in any way.
Please advise.
Thus, the actual math problems aren't necessary to advise Tachoh.
posted by girlbowler at 7:44 AM on April 9, 2008
Our knowledge of the math problems in the OP is irrelevant to the question asked. The OP asks how to handle a situation in which Tachoh feels that the grade received is not the grade earned:
Short of actually sitting this guy down and teaching him how to do these problems, how can I get the marks I deserve?
Has anyone else ever had this issue? Should I go to the dean? I really don't want to cause a scene or harm this prof in any way.
Please advise.
Thus, the actual math problems aren't necessary to advise Tachoh.
posted by girlbowler at 7:44 AM on April 9, 2008
Another anecdote: One of my students was a retired fireman. He liked to do rate-time-distance problems his own way - structured, thorough, and got the right answers, but really, quite a lot of extra work. I was teaching the use of algebra for such problems. Since the coursework was in algebra, I told him he needed to use algebra, not his method, to get full credit. The whole thing was amiable, but: he got the right answer, in the wrong way. He learned the correct way for class, even though he understood his way more thoroughly.
posted by notsnot at 7:50 AM on April 9, 2008
posted by notsnot at 7:50 AM on April 9, 2008
When you want someone to do something for you, whether they are right or wrong is not as important as you think it is. You need to ask yourself how you can best persuade the person in question to help you, not how you can best persuade that person that he or she is wrong. The latter approach will antagonize people, as you have seen happen in this instance. Of course people should admit it when they make mistakes, and of course they should change their ways, but they often don’t, especially if you treat them as an adversary. You will be much more successful in the future if you consider the other person’s perspective before you act. Take this situation, in which you want the professor to change your grade. People don’t like to be embarrassed, so you don’t want to bring this issue up in front of others. This is why several people have already told you that it would have been better to talk to him one on one during his office hours. People don’t like to be told that they are wrong, so you would be wise to find a way to help him save face, in this case by asking him to help you understand how the problem ought to be solved, as you have been advised to do. Then, if you are indeed right, you can keep framing your objections as genuine questions, and when the mistake in his reasoning comes out, it will come from him, and thus it will not make him so uncomfortable that he will want to avoid the issue and, therefore, avoid changing your grade.
If I were you, depending on how aggressive you were in class, I would consider apologizing to the professor, and I would seek him out for a private conversation about these questions in which I would ask him to help me understand what I ought to have done to solve the problem and where I went wrong. If this did not work, I would not escalate unless my grade was affected by a full point.
And, in the future, I would endeavor to consider how people are likely to react to my requests, and how I can make sure that I make it as easy and comfortable as possible for them to do what I want them to, even if that’s what they ought to be doing in the first place.
When you ask whether or not you should be "teaching him how to do these problems," it makes me wonder whether or not you are aware of your tone. That phrase sounded extremely arrogant considering your relative positions, and if you are coming off that way to him, it will make him dislike you and he will not want to help you or do you any favors. Be very careful to moderate your tone of voice and the expressions that you use.
posted by prefpara at 7:51 AM on April 9, 2008 [3 favorites]
If I were you, depending on how aggressive you were in class, I would consider apologizing to the professor, and I would seek him out for a private conversation about these questions in which I would ask him to help me understand what I ought to have done to solve the problem and where I went wrong. If this did not work, I would not escalate unless my grade was affected by a full point.
And, in the future, I would endeavor to consider how people are likely to react to my requests, and how I can make sure that I make it as easy and comfortable as possible for them to do what I want them to, even if that’s what they ought to be doing in the first place.
When you ask whether or not you should be "teaching him how to do these problems," it makes me wonder whether or not you are aware of your tone. That phrase sounded extremely arrogant considering your relative positions, and if you are coming off that way to him, it will make him dislike you and he will not want to help you or do you any favors. Be very careful to moderate your tone of voice and the expressions that you use.
posted by prefpara at 7:51 AM on April 9, 2008 [3 favorites]
Oh, and it goes without saying that if it turns out that you did get those questions wrong, you should apologize to him if you were aggressive in class. I do also want to mention that the fact that he said he didn't understand how you arrived at your answer does not mean you understand this math better than he does. It is often impossible to figure out what the hell is going on in a student's wrong answer, especially if they don't show all of their work. I know, because my poor TAs often struggled with my innumerate clunkers.
posted by prefpara at 7:55 AM on April 9, 2008
posted by prefpara at 7:55 AM on April 9, 2008
There must be a math geek forum where you can get others to verify your answer as correct. Then, I think ferocious kitty's suggestion is a good one. Professors have wide latitude in their classes, and universities like to protect their own. If you verify that your answer is correct, meet w/ the prof, and still don't get satisfaction, go to your adviser and discuss. If you're a math major, be cautious about pissing off a prof, esp. a full professor.
posted by theora55 at 7:57 AM on April 9, 2008
posted by theora55 at 7:57 AM on April 9, 2008
Short of actually sitting this guy down and teaching him how to do these problems, how can I get the marks I deserve?
Has anyone else ever had this issue? Should I go to the dean? I really don't want to cause a scene or harm this prof in any way.
Please advise.
You should go to the dean if you were marked incorrectly, and you shouldn't if you were marked correctly.
We cannot answer in good conscience without knowing whether or not you got the answer correct, so you should post the problem.
posted by OmieWise at 7:57 AM on April 9, 2008
Has anyone else ever had this issue? Should I go to the dean? I really don't want to cause a scene or harm this prof in any way.
Please advise.
You should go to the dean if you were marked incorrectly, and you shouldn't if you were marked correctly.
We cannot answer in good conscience without knowing whether or not you got the answer correct, so you should post the problem.
posted by OmieWise at 7:57 AM on April 9, 2008
Yeah, I missed that you were trying to explain it too him class. That's pretty lame since it wastes other students time.
Anyway I'm curious to see what the problem was. Keep in mind math is something where a lot of people can be 100% certain that they're right and actually be wrong.
posted by delmoi at 8:01 AM on April 9, 2008
Anyway I'm curious to see what the problem was. Keep in mind math is something where a lot of people can be 100% certain that they're right and actually be wrong.
posted by delmoi at 8:01 AM on April 9, 2008
Just to ditto - have you considered that you might actually be wrong? You don't mention discussing it with other students in the class or other qualified persons. Its not uncommon for students to disagree with their professors but that doesn't automatically make the professor wrong and the student right - all we have here is your assertion that you are right and the professor doesn't understand how to solve the problem.
The tone of your post is very arrogant and if this is how you are approaching the problem then its no wonder you're not getting very far, a little humility goes a long way, especially when dealing with 'authority figures'. If you treat him with a little respect rather than trying to humiliate him in front of your entire class, he might respond more favourably.
If you want to take the matter further you should *at least* get a collection of other students in your class who answered the question in the same way and got the same answer as you. Obviously the opinion of someone as qualified (or better) than your professor in the related area would give you the greatest possibility of success either with your professor or with the dean, either way this should be done in private not in-front of the class.
In summary:
First, get proof that you are actually correct. Second, approach your professor in private with the evidence, if that fails, approach the dean and/or head of department.
But if, as you say, you don't want to cause a scene or get the professor into trouble then just suck it up - you're still going to get an A.
posted by missmagenta at 8:05 AM on April 9, 2008
The tone of your post is very arrogant and if this is how you are approaching the problem then its no wonder you're not getting very far, a little humility goes a long way, especially when dealing with 'authority figures'. If you treat him with a little respect rather than trying to humiliate him in front of your entire class, he might respond more favourably.
If you want to take the matter further you should *at least* get a collection of other students in your class who answered the question in the same way and got the same answer as you. Obviously the opinion of someone as qualified (or better) than your professor in the related area would give you the greatest possibility of success either with your professor or with the dean, either way this should be done in private not in-front of the class.
In summary:
First, get proof that you are actually correct. Second, approach your professor in private with the evidence, if that fails, approach the dean and/or head of department.
But if, as you say, you don't want to cause a scene or get the professor into trouble then just suck it up - you're still going to get an A.
posted by missmagenta at 8:05 AM on April 9, 2008
I've been in this position more than once and whether I got more marks or not depended a lot on how tactful I was about it. It was probably a big, big mistake to humiliate him in class like you did. No one likes being shown up like that, in front of students. After learning from experience, my usual method in cases like this is to wait after class, tell the prof that you don't understand something in the question or you need a clarification or have a doubt -- something like that. Don't be aggressive about it, it's your problem not his. Ask him when would be a good time to meet him. If he has office hours go to those. And then go through the problem, explaining each step you took and being as nice as you can about it. Don't tell him he's wrong. Ask him to explain where you went wrong! As people have been saying it's tough to say whether you should go to higher authorities without being absolutely sure that your answer is right. At the same time, I understand your frustration. It's not merely a matter of a few points here or there -- you just feel that you've been treated unfairly. But it's a bit too much to expect that people will acknowledge that you're right if you announce to the entire class that they're wrong. The best professors I've known were willing to do this but many wouldn't. Try to make it as easy for him to save face as possible and you may have a shot.
posted by peacheater at 8:15 AM on April 9, 2008
posted by peacheater at 8:15 AM on April 9, 2008
How much of a hit has your overall grade taken with these wrong/right answers? If you went from an overall 99% to a 97%, I would advise just dropping the whole thing as being not worth your time, and you may well end up sounding like a grade-grubber rather than someone interested in learning. But if you went down at least a fraction of a grade (eg from an A to an A- in the course), it is worth looking into.
First, you have to make sure you are actually right. I don't teach math, but I have had a lot of students completely convinced that they were right, when in fact they were not. Sometimes it is a case of using the wrong methods -- which, even if they were producing a technically correct answer, are missing the point of the class and may cause other problems later. Sometimes the student has misunderstood the assignment or the definition of what a correct answer is. Posting the problem and your solution here would be a good option, but the college may have tutoring sessions, or just go to office hours and ask very very nicely to have the prof walk you through the problem from beginning to end (don't start off defending your answer -- first understand the prof's process, and only then see if your answer needs defending).
But everyone makes mistakes grading, so there is definitely a good chance that you are in the right here.
If you are wrong, apologize for causing a scene in class. If your answer is confirmed as right (meaning both results and methods, probably), and the prof won't correct your grade, then go to the dean of students and ask what your options are (as compared to going in and demanding a specific solution).
posted by Forktine at 8:19 AM on April 9, 2008
First, you have to make sure you are actually right. I don't teach math, but I have had a lot of students completely convinced that they were right, when in fact they were not. Sometimes it is a case of using the wrong methods -- which, even if they were producing a technically correct answer, are missing the point of the class and may cause other problems later. Sometimes the student has misunderstood the assignment or the definition of what a correct answer is. Posting the problem and your solution here would be a good option, but the college may have tutoring sessions, or just go to office hours and ask very very nicely to have the prof walk you through the problem from beginning to end (don't start off defending your answer -- first understand the prof's process, and only then see if your answer needs defending).
But everyone makes mistakes grading, so there is definitely a good chance that you are in the right here.
If you are wrong, apologize for causing a scene in class. If your answer is confirmed as right (meaning both results and methods, probably), and the prof won't correct your grade, then go to the dean of students and ask what your options are (as compared to going in and demanding a specific solution).
posted by Forktine at 8:19 AM on April 9, 2008
When I was a TA and grader (physics, not math, but we saw similar behaviors) we had one word for people getting A's and complaining about how they were graded on one problem:
Jackasses.
The advise above about a private conversation, with the emphasis being "why is this being marked as wrong" and not "here's why you are wrong" is accurate. If you're polite and and approach it that way, being able to explain what you did, if you're right the grader can see where they erred. If you aren't, they can better attune you to the subtle differences between what you did and what was correct.
posted by stevis23 at 8:19 AM on April 9, 2008
Jackasses.
The advise above about a private conversation, with the emphasis being "why is this being marked as wrong" and not "here's why you are wrong" is accurate. If you're polite and and approach it that way, being able to explain what you did, if you're right the grader can see where they erred. If you aren't, they can better attune you to the subtle differences between what you did and what was correct.
posted by stevis23 at 8:19 AM on April 9, 2008
Please don't go to the dean yet. If your schedule allows, sit down with your instructor during office hours, otherwise take it up through email. Try to resolve it respectfully. If nothing comes of the meeting, then your next step is to approach the chair of the department. Explain your concerns. Document both meetings. If, at the end of the semester, you believe your grade/education, or anyone else's, has suffered because of incompetence, then go to the dean and make your case. If you've taken reasonable steps and you don't come off as an axe grinder, you stand a pretty good chance of getting a grade change.
But don't start with the dean. Understand that many colleges/universities, especially community colleges, are deeply concerned with costumer satisfaction and retention. If the prof was just having a bad day and you go directly a dean who has a directive to improve retention, you may cost the a good prof. his job. Make sure you know he's incompetent before you take that step. And if he is, by all means, see the dean.
posted by kortez at 8:30 AM on April 9, 2008
But don't start with the dean. Understand that many colleges/universities, especially community colleges, are deeply concerned with costumer satisfaction and retention. If the prof was just having a bad day and you go directly a dean who has a directive to improve retention, you may cost the a good prof. his job. Make sure you know he's incompetent before you take that step. And if he is, by all means, see the dean.
posted by kortez at 8:30 AM on April 9, 2008
It was probably a big, big mistake to humiliate him in class like you did. No one likes being shown up like that, in front of students.
It's not even necessarily a case of the instructor being/feeling humiliated. It is not a good use of time in class to try to address a single student's grading issue, and sometimes the instructor's just trying to get the student to stop talking about the issue at that point.
You seem to be making some unwarranted assumptions about what's going on: e.g., your answers were marked wrong "due to the fact that he does not fully understand the answer" and "I tried explaining the answer to the question to him in class, but he does not like to be told he is wrong and went around the question."
Well, perhaps you were unclear. Or perhaps, the instructor had things to do in class that would be more useful to the class as a whole, and was, indeed, brushing off your explanation because in the middle of class, or even right after class, isn't the appropriate time to be having the conversation. It sounds like the instructor didn't handle the situation as gracefully as he might, but having a confrontational student in the middle of class can be flustering.
As everyone else has said, politely discuss the issue outside of class, at a point when the instructor has time to concentrate on what you're saying, and you may get a better resolution. Not assuming that of course you're right and the instructor is too big of a loser to understand your brilliance is probably a good idea, too.
I often make grading mistakes, and am always very happy to correct them (as long as the correction is in the student's favor---sometimes I realize that I should have taken points off that I didn't, but I don't fix that...), but there's a time and a place and a demeanor for that kind of conversation, and it's sounding like you made poor choices for all three.
posted by leahwrenn at 9:17 AM on April 9, 2008
It's not even necessarily a case of the instructor being/feeling humiliated. It is not a good use of time in class to try to address a single student's grading issue, and sometimes the instructor's just trying to get the student to stop talking about the issue at that point.
You seem to be making some unwarranted assumptions about what's going on: e.g., your answers were marked wrong "due to the fact that he does not fully understand the answer" and "I tried explaining the answer to the question to him in class, but he does not like to be told he is wrong and went around the question."
Well, perhaps you were unclear. Or perhaps, the instructor had things to do in class that would be more useful to the class as a whole, and was, indeed, brushing off your explanation because in the middle of class, or even right after class, isn't the appropriate time to be having the conversation. It sounds like the instructor didn't handle the situation as gracefully as he might, but having a confrontational student in the middle of class can be flustering.
As everyone else has said, politely discuss the issue outside of class, at a point when the instructor has time to concentrate on what you're saying, and you may get a better resolution. Not assuming that of course you're right and the instructor is too big of a loser to understand your brilliance is probably a good idea, too.
I often make grading mistakes, and am always very happy to correct them (as long as the correction is in the student's favor---sometimes I realize that I should have taken points off that I didn't, but I don't fix that...), but there's a time and a place and a demeanor for that kind of conversation, and it's sounding like you made poor choices for all three.
posted by leahwrenn at 9:17 AM on April 9, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks very much for the responses everyone.
I am sorry if the post came off as being arrogant. I have the utmost respect for this prof, he is very intelligent and I don't pretend to know more than he knows about this subject. I did, however, check the answer against a few math friends of mine before I posted the OP. My answer is correct to the best of our knowledge.
I think that I will discuss this with him in some privacy, show the solutions we all got to the question, explain how we got those solutions and go from there. I really don't want this to turn into a battle of the egos.
If all else fails, I think I am prepared to bring this up with the people above the prof. Not for the sake of my mark, but for the sake of everyone that encounters this issue after I am gone.
posted by Tachoh at 9:21 AM on April 9, 2008
I am sorry if the post came off as being arrogant. I have the utmost respect for this prof, he is very intelligent and I don't pretend to know more than he knows about this subject. I did, however, check the answer against a few math friends of mine before I posted the OP. My answer is correct to the best of our knowledge.
I think that I will discuss this with him in some privacy, show the solutions we all got to the question, explain how we got those solutions and go from there. I really don't want this to turn into a battle of the egos.
If all else fails, I think I am prepared to bring this up with the people above the prof. Not for the sake of my mark, but for the sake of everyone that encounters this issue after I am gone.
posted by Tachoh at 9:21 AM on April 9, 2008
You mentioned that you are using a different method that your teacher doesn't understand to arrive at an answer. I did this a lot in the past, for instance, when I took chemistry in college after 2.5 years of honors chemistry in high school: I didn't use the methods that my teacher taught to get to my answer, I used the ones I already knew. However, my teacher wasn't just testing us on what answer we got, but how we arrived at it. She was teaching a method. If I screwed up somewhere in my own string of calculations and got the wrong answer, she didn't give me credit for the work I did because it wasn't what she was teaching.
Think about it like using a calculator to do division instead of using long division. I used to yell at my math teachers for making me do long division because it was so slow and dumb compared to a calculator. However, now I realize that I don't always have a calculator, so learning long division wasn't all too bad.
posted by nursegracer at 9:25 AM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
Think about it like using a calculator to do division instead of using long division. I used to yell at my math teachers for making me do long division because it was so slow and dumb compared to a calculator. However, now I realize that I don't always have a calculator, so learning long division wasn't all too bad.
posted by nursegracer at 9:25 AM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
When I was a TA and grader (physics, not math, but we saw similar behaviors) we had one word for people getting A's and complaining about how they were graded on one problem:
Jackasses.
I disagree. There are good reasons for all students, including those getting A's, to audit every grade they receive, from homework assignments to final examinations.
Usually missed points indicate a flawed understanding of the material. If a student can't find such a flaw by examining his graded assignment, he should approach the professor or TA at an appropriate time such as during office hours to ask for help understanding the flaw in the student's understanding. In the rare cases when there actually is a grading error, it becomes evident during the discussion and the error can be corrected without the grader losing face.
Also, many departments have policies regarding class-granular GPA's to prevent grade inflation. For example, when I was in school the professors in upper-division courses fit the grade distribution to yield a class GPA in the range 2.7-3.1. A few of my classes had only 15-20 people in them. That's about 3 or 4 A's. The decision about whether or not to chase a couple of points on a homework assignment or two can easily affect the final grade in the course, given that one has to assume that the other students are chasing every point themselves.
posted by harmfulray at 9:41 AM on April 9, 2008
Don't bother, unless the dean happens to also be a math prof.
Unless that is the case, here is what will happen:
You will make your case. The dean will not understand a single word you say about why you're ever so right.
Then the dean will talk to the prof, who will say that, no, you got it wrong. And that X% of the class understood correctly that they should do [whatever they did] and got [the right answer]. Then he will say that even if, somehow, whatever you did is not completely meritless and grudgingly admit that a few people who were not clinically insane might take that approach, it still fails to demonstrate mastery of the material that you were being taught.
Then you won't get your points.
FWIW, I would bet that either you're wrong, or what you did was take a lawyerly approach to question wording that no reasonable student would take. You ought to post the problem here.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:45 AM on April 9, 2008
Unless that is the case, here is what will happen:
You will make your case. The dean will not understand a single word you say about why you're ever so right.
Then the dean will talk to the prof, who will say that, no, you got it wrong. And that X% of the class understood correctly that they should do [whatever they did] and got [the right answer]. Then he will say that even if, somehow, whatever you did is not completely meritless and grudgingly admit that a few people who were not clinically insane might take that approach, it still fails to demonstrate mastery of the material that you were being taught.
Then you won't get your points.
FWIW, I would bet that either you're wrong, or what you did was take a lawyerly approach to question wording that no reasonable student would take. You ought to post the problem here.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:45 AM on April 9, 2008
harmfulray, that's the approach I joined in advocating. Nobody ever has a problem with a student wanting to understand. And I certainly never was bothered by the person who came in to understand the one problem they whiffed, But someone who comes in arguing that they are right, and they want points, doesn't portray themselves as someone who wants to understand; they come off as a grade whore. And they quickly work their way to the "most despised" list.
The OP may not be one of these people, but may have left such an impression. And I'm trying to emphasize that there are more effective ways to present oneself.
posted by stevis23 at 10:40 AM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
The OP may not be one of these people, but may have left such an impression. And I'm trying to emphasize that there are more effective ways to present oneself.
posted by stevis23 at 10:40 AM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
"I'd give completely different advice based on whether the student was right or whether the student was wrong."
Then you're not answering the question. The question is what a student should do when the prof says the answer is wrong but (s)he thinks the answer is right. Starting from the position of knowing who is right is completely non-responsive to the question.
The OP posting the question/answer here could help us help him resolve this particular problem, but it certainly isn't going to help in future situations OP or other MeFites might encounter in the future.
You can give the OP a fish, or you can describe how one goes about fishing. Since the OP was actually asking how to fish (not to be given a fish), then the answers should probably be in that vein.
posted by toomuchpete at 10:50 AM on April 9, 2008
Then you're not answering the question. The question is what a student should do when the prof says the answer is wrong but (s)he thinks the answer is right. Starting from the position of knowing who is right is completely non-responsive to the question.
The OP posting the question/answer here could help us help him resolve this particular problem, but it certainly isn't going to help in future situations OP or other MeFites might encounter in the future.
You can give the OP a fish, or you can describe how one goes about fishing. Since the OP was actually asking how to fish (not to be given a fish), then the answers should probably be in that vein.
posted by toomuchpete at 10:50 AM on April 9, 2008
Short of actually sitting this guy down and teaching him how to do these problems, how can I get the marks I deserve?
You can't. You need to talk to him in private and describe your reasoning. You erred in bringing it up during class time: that's simply not the proper forum for this discussion.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:05 AM on April 9, 2008
You can't. You need to talk to him in private and describe your reasoning. You erred in bringing it up during class time: that's simply not the proper forum for this discussion.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:05 AM on April 9, 2008
Let me say in advance of the rest of my comments that I regularly teach method-problem-homework type classes (much like math courses) in symbolic logic at the undergraduate level. I screw up a couple times a semester, at least. There is not enough coffee grown on this Earth to keep me error-free every moment of every day. I have multiple students every semester who insist that they have correct ways to solve problems for which I lowered their scores. The vast majority of them have made minor mistakes that make enormous differences in terms of method and the formal strictures of proof. Occasionally, someone finds an actual mistake or a different method for that probelm. I not only acknowledge that, I take class time to demonstrate the error and note that I was corrected. This may or may not make me unusual among professors.
I echo the comments by several people here that class time is not the best time to bring this up, though. If your grades are that high and your methods are that unorthodox, then your exchange with him may have the effect of not only wasting time but genuinely confusing fellow classmates. Learning one set of complex formal methods can be extremely challenging for most people, and creating an atmosphere that says, "Oh, yeah, but you don't have to do it like this. You could do it some other way. Let me talk to this guy about it for a while in terms you all barely understand or don't understand for a while." sows tremendous confusion for people who are already struggling.
I would also not advise going straight to a Dean. To echo ROU_Xenophobe, unless that Dean is an expert in the field (not altogether likely), he or she is not going to examine the material itself. Think about it: if the Dean is from another field entirely, as many Deans are since they're hired as administrators not experts, he or she may be less qualified than BOTH of you to say anything about the work. To change your grades, most colleges would require a FOURTH party - some other math professor, maybe even someone from another school - to review the work and pass judgment. You can imagine how much fun that is. So, action is very unlikely with the Dean unless the harm to your grade is substantial or the mark down is glaringly obviously a personal axe being ground against you. Even if your prof blew this problem or several problems like this, neither of those seem to be the case. Take it up privately, politely and modestly.
posted by el_lupino at 1:04 PM on April 9, 2008
I echo the comments by several people here that class time is not the best time to bring this up, though. If your grades are that high and your methods are that unorthodox, then your exchange with him may have the effect of not only wasting time but genuinely confusing fellow classmates. Learning one set of complex formal methods can be extremely challenging for most people, and creating an atmosphere that says, "Oh, yeah, but you don't have to do it like this. You could do it some other way. Let me talk to this guy about it for a while in terms you all barely understand or don't understand for a while." sows tremendous confusion for people who are already struggling.
I would also not advise going straight to a Dean. To echo ROU_Xenophobe, unless that Dean is an expert in the field (not altogether likely), he or she is not going to examine the material itself. Think about it: if the Dean is from another field entirely, as many Deans are since they're hired as administrators not experts, he or she may be less qualified than BOTH of you to say anything about the work. To change your grades, most colleges would require a FOURTH party - some other math professor, maybe even someone from another school - to review the work and pass judgment. You can imagine how much fun that is. So, action is very unlikely with the Dean unless the harm to your grade is substantial or the mark down is glaringly obviously a personal axe being ground against you. Even if your prof blew this problem or several problems like this, neither of those seem to be the case. Take it up privately, politely and modestly.
posted by el_lupino at 1:04 PM on April 9, 2008
n-thing the suggestion that you should think about whether you are being tested on getting the right answer by hook or by crook, or on demonstrating that you know how to use one specific method for getting the right answer.
And the advice to discuss this calmly in a one-on-one meeting is good advice. Both of you will be more free to really listen to each other's ideas in that setting.
If you are being graded on getting the right answer, and if a private meeting still doesn't resolve things -- and if you still want to pursue it -- then you should speak to the Director of Undergraduate Studies of the math department (if they have one, it will be listed on the dept homepage), or the chair of the math department. The dean of academic affairs would be the next step up the ladder.
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:24 PM on April 9, 2008
And the advice to discuss this calmly in a one-on-one meeting is good advice. Both of you will be more free to really listen to each other's ideas in that setting.
If you are being graded on getting the right answer, and if a private meeting still doesn't resolve things -- and if you still want to pursue it -- then you should speak to the Director of Undergraduate Studies of the math department (if they have one, it will be listed on the dept homepage), or the chair of the math department. The dean of academic affairs would be the next step up the ladder.
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:24 PM on April 9, 2008
Regardless of the issue of whether this info is required to answer your original question, could you please post the problem and a description of your solution anyway? Otherwise certain mathematicians will be driven mad by unrelenting curiosity and runaway speculation.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 1:50 PM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 1:50 PM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
Make an appointment to see him privately in his office to discuss the matter
This is one of the reasons why office hours exist. If he doesn't have office hours, that's another problem…
posted by oaf at 2:45 PM on April 9, 2008
This is one of the reasons why office hours exist. If he doesn't have office hours, that's another problem…
posted by oaf at 2:45 PM on April 9, 2008
I am prepared to bring this up with the people above the prof. Not for the sake of my mark, but for the sake of everyone that encounters this issue after I am gone.
The only thing this will do is put a big fat stain on your prof's permanent record. Maybe he deserves it- I don't know. But you better think damn hard about whether you want to damage his career over one problem. Oh, and for the love of god, post the problem.
posted by proj08 at 4:39 PM on April 9, 2008
The only thing this will do is put a big fat stain on your prof's permanent record. Maybe he deserves it- I don't know. But you better think damn hard about whether you want to damage his career over one problem. Oh, and for the love of god, post the problem.
posted by proj08 at 4:39 PM on April 9, 2008
The only thing this will do is put a big fat stain on your prof's permanent record.
I can't imagine anyone's career being damaged by a student complaining about two test questions being misgraded. Even if the prof is totally wrong, and everyone can see that the prof is being irrationally unreasonable, chances are that there will be no consequences because the underlying issue will be seen as painfully trivial.
"This will be on your permanent record!" threats are reserved for more serious problems -- plagiarism, sexual misconduct, teaching while visibly drunk, systematically misgrading based on racial, sexual, or ethnic biases, etc. One student with a minor complaint is nothing, and probably happens once or twice a semester to someone in the department. Everyone has had it happen, and once the dean is made aware that the student is arguing over very small differences in the final grade, no one will treat the issue with any great seriousness. It's not like this is going to compromise anyone's ability to graduate, or anything like that.
(And the first thing the dean will ask is whether or not you have gone to office hours, anyway, so you may as well start there like you should.)
posted by Forktine at 4:52 PM on April 9, 2008
I can't imagine anyone's career being damaged by a student complaining about two test questions being misgraded. Even if the prof is totally wrong, and everyone can see that the prof is being irrationally unreasonable, chances are that there will be no consequences because the underlying issue will be seen as painfully trivial.
"This will be on your permanent record!" threats are reserved for more serious problems -- plagiarism, sexual misconduct, teaching while visibly drunk, systematically misgrading based on racial, sexual, or ethnic biases, etc. One student with a minor complaint is nothing, and probably happens once or twice a semester to someone in the department. Everyone has had it happen, and once the dean is made aware that the student is arguing over very small differences in the final grade, no one will treat the issue with any great seriousness. It's not like this is going to compromise anyone's ability to graduate, or anything like that.
(And the first thing the dean will ask is whether or not you have gone to office hours, anyway, so you may as well start there like you should.)
posted by Forktine at 4:52 PM on April 9, 2008
n-thing a request to post the problem. Don't tease us like this.
posted by vernondalhart at 5:03 PM on April 9, 2008
posted by vernondalhart at 5:03 PM on April 9, 2008
As another poster mentioned, it's not just about getting the correct answer. It's about using the method that is being taught.
posted by gjc at 8:12 PM on April 9, 2008
posted by gjc at 8:12 PM on April 9, 2008
Well, yes it is and no it isn't. Speaking from experience, if something says
"Calculate the volume of such-and-such-a-solid using multiple integration" then you have to use multiple integration. If it just says "Calculate the volume of such-and-such" you can do it however you like. It's implicit in a class on multiple integrals that that's what you should be doing perhaps, but in any assessment context like an exam it's up to the person writing the question to be specific enough to get the answer they want, and if someone else comes up with an alternative route then they deserve credit for it, either because it's a neater and more ingenious solution or because they did it the hard way.
But... if you get a different answer doing it your way, then something very funny is going on. And it sounds like, although it's not made explicitly clear, that's the case here.
There is a general lesson though that if you try something 'alternative' that you're going to mention it in class it'd better be "Hey, I found a fun way to do it" and not "Hey, you did it wrong!".
posted by edd at 2:36 PM on April 10, 2008
"Calculate the volume of such-and-such-a-solid using multiple integration" then you have to use multiple integration. If it just says "Calculate the volume of such-and-such" you can do it however you like. It's implicit in a class on multiple integrals that that's what you should be doing perhaps, but in any assessment context like an exam it's up to the person writing the question to be specific enough to get the answer they want, and if someone else comes up with an alternative route then they deserve credit for it, either because it's a neater and more ingenious solution or because they did it the hard way.
But... if you get a different answer doing it your way, then something very funny is going on. And it sounds like, although it's not made explicitly clear, that's the case here.
There is a general lesson though that if you try something 'alternative' that you're going to mention it in class it'd better be "Hey, I found a fun way to do it" and not "Hey, you did it wrong!".
posted by edd at 2:36 PM on April 10, 2008
Tachoh, you're wrong.
Having read that, was your immediate reaction to try to convince me why you're right?
I'm not actually saying you're wrong about the math problem, I have no idea. I'm saying your approach with the professor is counterproductive.
Learn to be humble (even if it starts out as just an act). Meet with the professor during office hours, and say you're concerned because you don't understand what you did wrong in the problem. Make it clear that you don't care about arguing grades, you're just trying to figure out if there's material you've missed. (Usually, if they realize they're mistaken, they'll give you the points back anyway. In the case where it won't change your GPA, it doesn't matter either way.)
This is a non-confrontational way to get into a discussion with the professor about the problem and about how your answer differs from theirs. It also really helps in the cases where you are wrong (it'll happen more often than you think).
(Also, sorry about the abrupt opening. It was intended solely to make a point.)
posted by Asymptote at 2:32 PM on April 11, 2008
Having read that, was your immediate reaction to try to convince me why you're right?
I'm not actually saying you're wrong about the math problem, I have no idea. I'm saying your approach with the professor is counterproductive.
Learn to be humble (even if it starts out as just an act). Meet with the professor during office hours, and say you're concerned because you don't understand what you did wrong in the problem. Make it clear that you don't care about arguing grades, you're just trying to figure out if there's material you've missed. (Usually, if they realize they're mistaken, they'll give you the points back anyway. In the case where it won't change your GPA, it doesn't matter either way.)
This is a non-confrontational way to get into a discussion with the professor about the problem and about how your answer differs from theirs. It also really helps in the cases where you are wrong (it'll happen more often than you think).
(Also, sorry about the abrupt opening. It was intended solely to make a point.)
posted by Asymptote at 2:32 PM on April 11, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by parmanparman at 6:59 AM on April 9, 2008