Sorry, I had to toss my cookies. Yours too.
March 18, 2008 8:06 AM Subscribe
How do you define a cookie? (The edible kind)
I am part of a contest to see who can make the best cookie. However, there is a gray area of what, exactly, constitutes a cookie. Help me find (or create) a cookie definition whereas it cannot be argued that something is.
The dictionary calls it: a small cake made from stiff, sweet dough rolled and sliced or dropped by spoonfuls on a large, flat pan (cookie sheet) and baked.
This, by my logic, means it would have to meet three criteria:
1. sweet dough
2. rolled and sliced or dropped by spoonfuls
3. baked on a flat pan
I feel this could exclude items that may actually be considered a cookie (no-bake cookies), and isn't sufficient enough to exclude some items ("bar" cookies, pastries, and candies). Lemon bars, S'mores, Rice Krispie treats, and rum balls would not be considered cookies.
How would you define a "cookie"?
I am part of a contest to see who can make the best cookie. However, there is a gray area of what, exactly, constitutes a cookie. Help me find (or create) a cookie definition whereas it cannot be argued that something is.
The dictionary calls it: a small cake made from stiff, sweet dough rolled and sliced or dropped by spoonfuls on a large, flat pan (cookie sheet) and baked.
This, by my logic, means it would have to meet three criteria:
1. sweet dough
2. rolled and sliced or dropped by spoonfuls
3. baked on a flat pan
I feel this could exclude items that may actually be considered a cookie (no-bake cookies), and isn't sufficient enough to exclude some items ("bar" cookies, pastries, and candies). Lemon bars, S'mores, Rice Krispie treats, and rum balls would not be considered cookies.
How would you define a "cookie"?
Saying they should be baked in individual portions could exclude the bars.
posted by rmless at 8:18 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by rmless at 8:18 AM on March 18, 2008
This definition also excludes "cookie shooter" cookies, the kind extruded through a (large) pastry-type tip. Also pressed cookies - pressed into a mold.
Also, why would you want to exclude "bar" cookies? If you exclude those, should you exclude the giant multi-serving "cookies" (pie-sized)?
My own definition: a sweet "biscuit" (using the British definition of biscuit). I'd define it by the way it's eaten rather than the way it's prepared - held in the hand rather than eaten by fork, mostly carbohydrates, flat disc-shaped, bite-sized, meant to be eaten in one to several bites, generally eaten alone (sometimes frosted).
If the contest doesn't have their own definition, I say push all the boundaries you want. Ask them for a definition first, though, and save it -- preferably in writing.
posted by amtho at 8:19 AM on March 18, 2008
Also, why would you want to exclude "bar" cookies? If you exclude those, should you exclude the giant multi-serving "cookies" (pie-sized)?
My own definition: a sweet "biscuit" (using the British definition of biscuit). I'd define it by the way it's eaten rather than the way it's prepared - held in the hand rather than eaten by fork, mostly carbohydrates, flat disc-shaped, bite-sized, meant to be eaten in one to several bites, generally eaten alone (sometimes frosted).
If the contest doesn't have their own definition, I say push all the boundaries you want. Ask them for a definition first, though, and save it -- preferably in writing.
posted by amtho at 8:19 AM on March 18, 2008
This could be tricky, because a Rice Krispie treat in another shape might be considered a cookie. I might be better to leave it open, and evaluate the cookies based on several criteria, e.g., taste, originality, aesthetics, etc., including how close it comes to the judges' concept of "cookie". That way a cookie that doesn't meet your criteria is not excluded; it simply doesn't win.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 8:21 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 8:21 AM on March 18, 2008
"biscuits go soft when stale, whereas cakes go hard when stale"
That's from a British court judgement. I think the British usage of "biscuit" is not going to be a million miles away from the American usage of "cookie". Even if US-cookie is a superset of UK-biscuit, it's still a useful partial definition, I think.
posted by Leon at 8:30 AM on March 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
That's from a British court judgement. I think the British usage of "biscuit" is not going to be a million miles away from the American usage of "cookie". Even if US-cookie is a superset of UK-biscuit, it's still a useful partial definition, I think.
posted by Leon at 8:30 AM on March 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Leon,
You just beat me to it! That was, I think, the charming "Jaffa Cake - biscuit or cake?" case, wasn't it? Something to do with value-added-tax!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:50 AM on March 18, 2008
You just beat me to it! That was, I think, the charming "Jaffa Cake - biscuit or cake?" case, wasn't it? Something to do with value-added-tax!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:50 AM on March 18, 2008
Can we drop the 'sweet' requirement from the definition? I have some delicious and savory bacon and blue cheese cookies that would be happy if we did.
posted by suckerpunch at 8:50 AM on March 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by suckerpunch at 8:50 AM on March 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
I am part of a contest to see who can make the best cookie. However, there is a gray area of what, exactly, constitutes a cookie.
Although finding the perfect definition for a cookie is an interesting challenge, the best way to get rid of this gray area is probably to just explain it like you explained it to us (with examples). If you just have your perfect cookie definition, people might not read it carefully enough or misinterpret it and break the rules.
The best thing to do would be to have a basic definition, an "allowed" list and a "not allowed" list. Put in a warning that people should not try to bend the rules and that if they need any clarifications they should contact you. If anybody shows up who didn't follow the rules, just factor that into the judging.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:54 AM on March 18, 2008
Although finding the perfect definition for a cookie is an interesting challenge, the best way to get rid of this gray area is probably to just explain it like you explained it to us (with examples). If you just have your perfect cookie definition, people might not read it carefully enough or misinterpret it and break the rules.
The best thing to do would be to have a basic definition, an "allowed" list and a "not allowed" list. Put in a warning that people should not try to bend the rules and that if they need any clarifications they should contact you. If anybody shows up who didn't follow the rules, just factor that into the judging.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:54 AM on March 18, 2008
Cookie: pre-crumbled baked rotund thing, sweet, flavored, colored and fragrant, devoured by monsters and humans alike.
posted by watercarrier at 8:58 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by watercarrier at 8:58 AM on March 18, 2008
Butter delivery system.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 9:40 AM on March 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by TryTheTilapia at 9:40 AM on March 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Where I'm from (Glasgow), a cookie is not-always-sweet bunlike object, not a million km away from a (US) biscuit. A biscuit is, of course, a (US) cookie, except we actually bake 'em the whole way through - unlike the soggy American travesties.
posted by scruss at 9:57 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by scruss at 9:57 AM on March 18, 2008
There's no fixed definition of a cookie. Use a different theory than big-list-of-necessary-and-sufficient-conditions. Instead think about the cookies in terms of "prototype theory" Obviously, one puts the chocolate chip cookie in the middle and goes outward from there.
posted by zpousman at 10:57 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by zpousman at 10:57 AM on March 18, 2008
Response by poster: sukerpunch: I think dropping sweet from the definition can be fine. Especially since bacon makes everything better.
zpousman: how can I “carve out” from your prototype theory what I need? Your author uses the definition/category of furniture, which could be any stationary object in the house. If what I am using is a dessert (which will serve as the house), can I be specific to the cookie (which will serve as a room in the house which should really only be containing [blank] type of furniture)?
Bar cookies are deemed unfit for this type of competition.
posted by thetenthstory at 11:17 AM on March 18, 2008
zpousman: how can I “carve out” from your prototype theory what I need? Your author uses the definition/category of furniture, which could be any stationary object in the house. If what I am using is a dessert (which will serve as the house), can I be specific to the cookie (which will serve as a room in the house which should really only be containing [blank] type of furniture)?
Bar cookies are deemed unfit for this type of competition.
posted by thetenthstory at 11:17 AM on March 18, 2008
Response by poster: - and multi serving cookies are okay. That is actaully a fantastic idea amtho.
posted by thetenthstory at 11:19 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by thetenthstory at 11:19 AM on March 18, 2008
What zpousman said. Humans generally do not use necessary and sufficient conditions when organizing categories in the real world. See also Radial Categories, Family Resemblance, exemplars.
posted by sophist at 11:22 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by sophist at 11:22 AM on March 18, 2008
I like amtho's "eat it with your hand" criteria, gone a bit further- if you can reasonably eat it with a fork, it's not a cookie.
Can we drop the 'sweet' requirement from the definition? I have some delicious and savory bacon and blue cheese cookies that would be happy if we did.
It may be delicious, but it's not a cookie unless it's at least got a sweet base. What you're describing is, to me, a biscuit.
Here's another rule: Its primary surface area can't be wet to the touch (when cooled, obviously). There's your lemon bar exclusion, as well as any other weird fruit concoctions.
posted by mkultra at 11:30 AM on March 18, 2008
Can we drop the 'sweet' requirement from the definition? I have some delicious and savory bacon and blue cheese cookies that would be happy if we did.
It may be delicious, but it's not a cookie unless it's at least got a sweet base. What you're describing is, to me, a biscuit.
Here's another rule: Its primary surface area can't be wet to the touch (when cooled, obviously). There's your lemon bar exclusion, as well as any other weird fruit concoctions.
posted by mkultra at 11:30 AM on March 18, 2008
Lemon bars, S'mores, Rice Krispie treats, and rum balls would not be considered cookies.
I agree. None of those are cookies.
If they were cookies, they'd be called "lemon cookies" or "rice krispie cookies" or whatever. And then people would say "wtf is wrong with you, that's not a cookie!"
I agree that cookies are sweet and biscuits are not, too.
Just votin'.
posted by rokusan at 12:49 PM on March 18, 2008
I agree. None of those are cookies.
If they were cookies, they'd be called "lemon cookies" or "rice krispie cookies" or whatever. And then people would say "wtf is wrong with you, that's not a cookie!"
I agree that cookies are sweet and biscuits are not, too.
Just votin'.
posted by rokusan at 12:49 PM on March 18, 2008
Bars are not cookies, it would never occur to me to categorize them as such! I don't understand the hate against savory cookies, though. Cookies can certainly be savory. A biscuit is something else entirely, more like a scone.
posted by arcticwoman at 3:04 PM on March 18, 2008
posted by arcticwoman at 3:04 PM on March 18, 2008
Maybe have separate categories for sweet vs savory cookies.
posted by arcticwoman at 3:05 PM on March 18, 2008
posted by arcticwoman at 3:05 PM on March 18, 2008
Actually, arcticwoman (and a few others who've made the same mistake), "biscuits" are what they call cookies in the UK and Australia. (Seriously. It's what's on the aisle markers at the grocery store and everything.) So some of the people who are using that term really do mean a cookie-type thing, and not a scone-type thing.
posted by web-goddess at 10:00 PM on March 18, 2008
posted by web-goddess at 10:00 PM on March 18, 2008
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