Help me deal with this holiday dilemma
November 18, 2007 6:35 AM Subscribe
My wife believes that the Thanksgiving/Christmas holidays should be spent at home. I have a differing opinion. What is reasonable?
Background: My widowed mother in law lives a few blocks away. My parents/sister live in the city about 100 miles away. The rest of the extended family (both sides) are irrelevant as they're further away and not that close to us.
The issue: We have a 3-year old, and the issue of holiday plans have become a bone of contention.
My wife's viewpoint: We should stay home because we 'belong' at home on the holidays. She says holiday travelling (100 miles by car) is stressful. She says if my parents want to participate they can come here.
My viewpoint: I grew up travelling and have happy memories of spending the holidays at Grandpa & Grandma's and seeing family, and I'm sure my son would like the same experience. I feel he gets enough of home 365 days a year. Also this marginalizes my parents by making them unable to host any holiday visits.
My interest has always been to compromise by spending one holiday here involving my MIL and one holiday at my parents' place, but she says that holidays are a home thing and if I want to spend a holiday at my parents that I can go by myself.
Any thoughts here?
Background: My widowed mother in law lives a few blocks away. My parents/sister live in the city about 100 miles away. The rest of the extended family (both sides) are irrelevant as they're further away and not that close to us.
The issue: We have a 3-year old, and the issue of holiday plans have become a bone of contention.
My wife's viewpoint: We should stay home because we 'belong' at home on the holidays. She says holiday travelling (100 miles by car) is stressful. She says if my parents want to participate they can come here.
My viewpoint: I grew up travelling and have happy memories of spending the holidays at Grandpa & Grandma's and seeing family, and I'm sure my son would like the same experience. I feel he gets enough of home 365 days a year. Also this marginalizes my parents by making them unable to host any holiday visits.
My interest has always been to compromise by spending one holiday here involving my MIL and one holiday at my parents' place, but she says that holidays are a home thing and if I want to spend a holiday at my parents that I can go by myself.
Any thoughts here?
This post was deleted for the following reason: poster's request -- jessamyn
Sounds like the issue isn't the travel, but the people at the other end.
posted by 45moore45 at 6:47 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by 45moore45 at 6:47 AM on November 18, 2007
The compromise you suggest sounds most reasonable to me. Perhaps this year you could drive to your parents' home for Thanksgiving and next year they could come to yours. in my opinion, riving 100 miles is peanuts compared to hosting a meal with so many expectations built-in.
I suggest Christmas because I can see how transporting a carload of Christmas gifts would be onerous.
posted by tempest in a teapot at 6:48 AM on November 18, 2007
I suggest Christmas because I can see how transporting a carload of Christmas gifts would be onerous.
posted by tempest in a teapot at 6:48 AM on November 18, 2007
How does she feel holiday traveling is stressful? If she won't compromise with you (the one holiday at home and the other at your parents) then she is being unreasonable. I usually spend one holiday at home and the other away, and then alternate from year to year.
Why does she feel you 'belong' at home on the holidays? Does she have any issues with your parents?
posted by C17H19NO3 at 6:49 AM on November 18, 2007
Why does she feel you 'belong' at home on the holidays? Does she have any issues with your parents?
posted by C17H19NO3 at 6:49 AM on November 18, 2007
that should read "In my opinion, driving 100 miles..."
posted by tempest in a teapot at 6:49 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by tempest in a teapot at 6:49 AM on November 18, 2007
Would your wife feel that way if you lived near your parents and her mother was the one who lived in another city? It's kind of ridiculous that she's saying holidays are for home but then expecting your parents to travel if they want to see you—is your family not as important as hers? Also I'd like to point out that 100 miles is not exactly an outrageous number—millions of people spend more time at airports waiting for their holiday flights than it would take you to get in a car and drive the distance to your parents.
Your suggested compromise seems more than fair, since it splits the holidays two ways, especially since your mother-in-law lives nearby and you presumably see her on a regular basis; I know people in situations like yours who would just do Thanksgiving/Christmas Eve with nearby family, and then travel to see other family on the holiday itself or do things the other way around. Or you could have your parents and sister make the drive for one and then bring your wife and child to your parents' house for the other. If your wife's issue is not wanting her mother to be alone on the holiday, then perhaps you could bring her along to your parents house? If her issue is not liking your family, or not thinking they're as important as hers, that's a whole other can of worms.
posted by lia at 6:56 AM on November 18, 2007
Your suggested compromise seems more than fair, since it splits the holidays two ways, especially since your mother-in-law lives nearby and you presumably see her on a regular basis; I know people in situations like yours who would just do Thanksgiving/Christmas Eve with nearby family, and then travel to see other family on the holiday itself or do things the other way around. Or you could have your parents and sister make the drive for one and then bring your wife and child to your parents' house for the other. If your wife's issue is not wanting her mother to be alone on the holiday, then perhaps you could bring her along to your parents house? If her issue is not liking your family, or not thinking they're as important as hers, that's a whole other can of worms.
posted by lia at 6:56 AM on November 18, 2007
She'd rather you go by yourself?? That's not so nice.
I hate traveling during the holidays and up until 2 years ago we would travel every Christmas - about 2500 miles. It sucked. The destination was wonderful, but the stress of travel (with children) was horrible. I miss my family during the holidays, though.
The past 2 years we've been "home" for the holidays . . . just hubby and our three kids. It's lonely! But, what has been nice is starting our own traditions and not having to stress about traveling - and traveling with gifts, etc.
I can't see why your wife won't compromise every other year and perhaps bring MIL along so that she's not alone?
I'm not siding with your wife (I think she should compromise), but be aware that going to the in-laws is weird. It just is - no matter how well you get along, it's weird. It's not your home, you don't have your own memories there, you don't have a "back story" with the people there. You don't get the inside jokes, you feel like an outsider. Is it okay for her to poke around in the fridge when she's hungry? Things like that make for a sometimes awkward time.
Is there an option here of you hosting the holidays at your home? Or perhaps instead of celebrating ON THE EXACT DATE of Thanksgiving/Christmas, you celebrate with your parents/sister at a different time? That way you miss the holiday travel and you still get to be "home" for the holidays.
posted by Sassyfras at 6:58 AM on November 18, 2007
I hate traveling during the holidays and up until 2 years ago we would travel every Christmas - about 2500 miles. It sucked. The destination was wonderful, but the stress of travel (with children) was horrible. I miss my family during the holidays, though.
The past 2 years we've been "home" for the holidays . . . just hubby and our three kids. It's lonely! But, what has been nice is starting our own traditions and not having to stress about traveling - and traveling with gifts, etc.
I can't see why your wife won't compromise every other year and perhaps bring MIL along so that she's not alone?
I'm not siding with your wife (I think she should compromise), but be aware that going to the in-laws is weird. It just is - no matter how well you get along, it's weird. It's not your home, you don't have your own memories there, you don't have a "back story" with the people there. You don't get the inside jokes, you feel like an outsider. Is it okay for her to poke around in the fridge when she's hungry? Things like that make for a sometimes awkward time.
Is there an option here of you hosting the holidays at your home? Or perhaps instead of celebrating ON THE EXACT DATE of Thanksgiving/Christmas, you celebrate with your parents/sister at a different time? That way you miss the holiday travel and you still get to be "home" for the holidays.
posted by Sassyfras at 6:58 AM on November 18, 2007
Your parents' home _is_ a kind of home, for you, and also for your family, IF your parents make them feel at home.
posted by amtho at 7:00 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by amtho at 7:00 AM on November 18, 2007
You're right and she's wrong. Not about the home vs away thing for the holidays, but about compromising, one holiday here, one holiday there.
You could take the compromising one step further: One holiday home hosting your mother in law, one holiday home hosting your family (I assume they would come the 100 miles), one holiday away at your parents, and you take your mother in law with you if that's an option.
posted by poppo at 7:09 AM on November 18, 2007
You could take the compromising one step further: One holiday home hosting your mother in law, one holiday home hosting your family (I assume they would come the 100 miles), one holiday away at your parents, and you take your mother in law with you if that's an option.
posted by poppo at 7:09 AM on November 18, 2007
I always thought that one should be with one's family during the holidays. She's lucky if she was able to do that without traveling before, but it's unfair to expect other people to do all the traveling to make this possible now.
posted by grouse at 7:17 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by grouse at 7:17 AM on November 18, 2007
I have to agree that there seems to be something else going on here than just traveling plans. Traveling during the holidays is extremely common--enough so that more than a few comedies have been made about doing so! And, really, 100 miles is not far at all, so far as holiday traveling is concerned.
This means your wife's point of view is odd, and her insistence is even odder. It's rare for people to be that resolute against compromising unless there's some deeper issue they are just trying to hide. That, or your wife is just completely unreasonable.
posted by Ms. Saint at 7:29 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
This means your wife's point of view is odd, and her insistence is even odder. It's rare for people to be that resolute against compromising unless there's some deeper issue they are just trying to hide. That, or your wife is just completely unreasonable.
posted by Ms. Saint at 7:29 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Someone mentioned it, but I want to Nth it. Offer to take the mother in law along to the other holiday house. Compromise should be the answer in this.
Frankly, 100 miles isn't a big deal in terms of traveling. You're looking at less than two hours in a car for day(s) at someone's house. If 100 miles is too stressful, its either an excuse or you got hell's minions for kiddies.
posted by Atreides at 7:32 AM on November 18, 2007
Frankly, 100 miles isn't a big deal in terms of traveling. You're looking at less than two hours in a car for day(s) at someone's house. If 100 miles is too stressful, its either an excuse or you got hell's minions for kiddies.
posted by Atreides at 7:32 AM on November 18, 2007
Generally, I agree with you - You do spend enough time at home as it is. To this effect, try to make the holiday travel as mind-blowingly easy and unstressful on your wife as possible. If this isn't possible, I agree with the posters who say that waiting until your child is old enough to really remember Christmas at Nana and Papa's (and behave himself while he's in the car on the way there) is probably the best solution.
posted by lizzicide at 7:42 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by lizzicide at 7:42 AM on November 18, 2007
Yeah, that sounds like she's got something deeper going on. Not to play armchair psychologist, and she may just be really, really adamant about this kind of thing, but she needs to compromise. We don't have kids, but our compromise has been to do Thanksgiving at my parents' house, and my inlaws come to see us there. As it happens my parents and his parents get along like gangbusters, so that works. We also attend the Family of Biblical Proportions Holiday Party at his parents' house, which is usually not on actual Christmas, and we again go to my parents' house for Christmas day (although sometimes my MIL wants to host). My mom and his mom are very flexible about things, so it works out. I'm actually the one that's a pain in the ass because I really love being at my mom's for the holidays. His parents' place is nice enough, but I have a fairly unreasonable attachment to my parents' place. The only reason I don't end up looking like a control crazed freak is that my inlaws and my parents both like the arrangement, and I recognize when I need to pipe down and let it go.
posted by Medieval Maven at 7:42 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by Medieval Maven at 7:42 AM on November 18, 2007
Well, in contrast to a lot of people above this, I don't think that what your wife is expressing is an uncommon sentiment at all. In my family, and in quite of a few of my friend's families, the expectation is that kids travel to their parents' houses for holidays until those kids have kids of their own. The creation of your very own little nuclear family with kids is interpreted by a lot of people as a time to shift expectations about what "home" and "family" is (from considering the family you grew up in to be your primary family to considering your spouse and children as your primary family). With your own child, you're enough of an "adult" to start asking other family members to visit you, rather than the default expectation being that you should travel to see them.
I'm not saying that she is right and you're wrong, but I think the very way that you've framed this question is buying into the idea that (both you and your wife's) parents are the primary "family," and that your respective parents are the home base to which you return--I mean, your compromise sounds a lot like spending one holiday with your parents and one holiday with hers. But if she's trying to make the point that "family" now is about you, her and the tyke, and parents are secondary to that... well, it seems like she may not see your compromise as a compromise at all.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying that it "marginalizes" your parents to prevent them from hosting--I mean, if the point is to be with them, I'm not sure why it should matter whether they host or you do--but it sure seems to me that if you're very set on spending the holiday with your parents, and she's very set on spending the holidays at home, inviting your parents to your home is a way to get both of your needs met. Can you say a little more about why you think this is unfair? Is it that your parents can't (or won't) travel? Or you think it's unfair to ask them to do so?
posted by iminurmefi at 7:53 AM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
I'm not saying that she is right and you're wrong, but I think the very way that you've framed this question is buying into the idea that (both you and your wife's) parents are the primary "family," and that your respective parents are the home base to which you return--I mean, your compromise sounds a lot like spending one holiday with your parents and one holiday with hers. But if she's trying to make the point that "family" now is about you, her and the tyke, and parents are secondary to that... well, it seems like she may not see your compromise as a compromise at all.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying that it "marginalizes" your parents to prevent them from hosting--I mean, if the point is to be with them, I'm not sure why it should matter whether they host or you do--but it sure seems to me that if you're very set on spending the holiday with your parents, and she's very set on spending the holidays at home, inviting your parents to your home is a way to get both of your needs met. Can you say a little more about why you think this is unfair? Is it that your parents can't (or won't) travel? Or you think it's unfair to ask them to do so?
posted by iminurmefi at 7:53 AM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
She is being unreasonable. My husband and I went several times to his father's house in Florida for Xmas: I admit that driving 2000 miles with 3 children can be stressful, but 100 miles is not and my children have great memories of their holidays with grandaddy. There is a question also of your sister: if she is married, her in-laws are also part of the family. A few of my friends are on alternative schedules: one year they all meet at one set of grandparents, the next year theirs and their siblings in-laws are the hosts and they usually schedule gift exchanges with their own siblings and parents the first weekend in December. I would take her up on the offer and go on your to your parents house: your child is still too young to really know the difference and perhaps she will learn to compromise.
posted by francesca too at 7:58 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by francesca too at 7:58 AM on November 18, 2007
Ah, forgot to add one thing--I think your wife's viewpoint doesn't preclude occasionally having the holidays hosted by your parents or her parents. I remember that I spent a handful of holidays at my grandparent's place.
But there's a big (psychological, if not in outcome) difference between the expectation that you'll switch off spending the holidays with her family and with your family, and the expectation that you'll spend the holidays at home with your (immediate) family, hosting other members as they are able to travel to be with you, while occasionally traveling to your parent's place when warranted (years when it's difficult for them to travel for medical reasons, or when there's a big family reunion going on). If you can validate what she's expressing--that she sees you and the kid as her main family now, and the primary consideration about what to do for holidays should revolve around you three, rather than the wishes and feelings of the families you both grew up in, you may find that she's willing to be more flexible about actually traveling every few years to somewhere else for the holidays.
posted by iminurmefi at 8:01 AM on November 18, 2007
But there's a big (psychological, if not in outcome) difference between the expectation that you'll switch off spending the holidays with her family and with your family, and the expectation that you'll spend the holidays at home with your (immediate) family, hosting other members as they are able to travel to be with you, while occasionally traveling to your parent's place when warranted (years when it's difficult for them to travel for medical reasons, or when there's a big family reunion going on). If you can validate what she's expressing--that she sees you and the kid as her main family now, and the primary consideration about what to do for holidays should revolve around you three, rather than the wishes and feelings of the families you both grew up in, you may find that she's willing to be more flexible about actually traveling every few years to somewhere else for the holidays.
posted by iminurmefi at 8:01 AM on November 18, 2007
You're right, she's wrong. Flat out. It's rare that we can say that on RelationshipFilter, so cherish this moment. Furthermore, the "logic" she uses to justify her position doesn't hold up. People should be home on the holidays, but your parents can travel to see you? Or you (solo) can travel to see them? Bzzt.
I agree with the others upthread who say there's something else at work here. You should ask her very plainly what that might be.
posted by adamrice at 8:03 AM on November 18, 2007
I agree with the others upthread who say there's something else at work here. You should ask her very plainly what that might be.
posted by adamrice at 8:03 AM on November 18, 2007
your compromise sounds totally reasonable, although i suspect she feels very guilty about leaving her mom home alone on a holiday.
since your folks only live a couple of hours away, why not invite the MIL to come with you?
posted by thinkingwoman at 8:05 AM on November 18, 2007
since your folks only live a couple of hours away, why not invite the MIL to come with you?
posted by thinkingwoman at 8:05 AM on November 18, 2007
Most AskMe questions seem to inspire pile-ons, either for or against the original asker, depending not so much on objective facts as on whether the asker comes across as sympathetic. Here it's a pile-on in favor, and I'm genuinely surprised; it seems ridiculous to me to claim that there's some obvious "right side" here. I agree with iminurmefi: it is very common to want to spend holidays at home, and I suspect especially common when you have a young kid and want to establish holiday traditions with him. The poster has no basis for saying "I'm sure my son would like the same experience" except that he himself did and thinks his son should be just like him. Sure, if the son spends his holidays traveling he's likely to remember it with fondness, but exactly the same is true of spending them at home.
My grandson is three, and his parents (who have spent years shuttling between various family homes at holidays) are trying to start having them at their house, and my wife and I are completely supportive. In fact, all along we've tried to make things easier on them by going somewhere else if that seemed helpful rather than their adding our house to their itinerary. Why make a hundred-mile trip with a three-year-old if you don't have to?
I think the poster should worry less about his parents and more about his wife. One man's opinion.
posted by languagehat at 8:07 AM on November 18, 2007 [4 favorites]
My grandson is three, and his parents (who have spent years shuttling between various family homes at holidays) are trying to start having them at their house, and my wife and I are completely supportive. In fact, all along we've tried to make things easier on them by going somewhere else if that seemed helpful rather than their adding our house to their itinerary. Why make a hundred-mile trip with a three-year-old if you don't have to?
I think the poster should worry less about his parents and more about his wife. One man's opinion.
posted by languagehat at 8:07 AM on November 18, 2007 [4 favorites]
I do agree that logically, your compromise sounds reasonable. However, do you honestly believe that your wife will respond favorably if you say, "Hey honey, the internet says I'm right! Pack up the van and let's go!" She obviously has strong feelings about this issue, probably because of an underlying problem, so if I were you I'd address those.
Is she worried about leaving her widowed mom alone on the holidays? Maybe you can do Christmas Eve or celebrate on the 26th with the MIL so she doesn't feel left out.
Does she want to start her own holiday traditions? It's actually really, really hard to slip into someone else's holiday traditions and not feel weird. Last year my husband felt odd being with my extended family as we talked all night, and I felt odd being with his family as they watched movies on Christmas Day. I think the feeling that she wants to start you three to start your own traditions is a valid one.
Is it an issue with the in-laws? Don't discount how weird it is to be at someone else's house, especially during the holidays, especially with extended family around. What might be a time of beautiful nostalgia for you could be a day (or two, or three) of awkwardness and stress for her.
Find out what's going on here and work through it, and then you can find a real compromise.
Good luck!
posted by christinetheslp at 8:18 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Is she worried about leaving her widowed mom alone on the holidays? Maybe you can do Christmas Eve or celebrate on the 26th with the MIL so she doesn't feel left out.
Does she want to start her own holiday traditions? It's actually really, really hard to slip into someone else's holiday traditions and not feel weird. Last year my husband felt odd being with my extended family as we talked all night, and I felt odd being with his family as they watched movies on Christmas Day. I think the feeling that she wants to start you three to start your own traditions is a valid one.
Is it an issue with the in-laws? Don't discount how weird it is to be at someone else's house, especially during the holidays, especially with extended family around. What might be a time of beautiful nostalgia for you could be a day (or two, or three) of awkwardness and stress for her.
Find out what's going on here and work through it, and then you can find a real compromise.
Good luck!
posted by christinetheslp at 8:18 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
I can relate to your wife in a way. Or, at least I could in the past. I've loosened up a bit in my old age.
I felt infringed upon that I was asked to drag my kids to different locations on the holidays. Didn't they know how stressful that was?!
These were my feelings in the past: I was stressed and pissed that my little kids would have to endure car trips. I was peeved that I had to get showered and ready earlier in the day, instead of lounging in the comfort of my own house. After dinner I had to chat and wash dishes with the females, and supervise and entertain my children, while my husband and the other men played cards after dinner. (Yes, this is my reality. Although, thankfully, they haven't played cards the last few years.)
I didn't look forward to these holidays. I felt uncomfortable. I already felt that I was compromising tons by spending Christmas Eve with my family and Christmas Day with the in-laws. Thanksgiving is at noon at my parents and five o'clock at the in-laws. This year the in-laws have moved Thanksgiving to four o'clock! My feeling is that we'll get there when we get there.
I do have a point somewhere, I think.
For me, it was a control thing. I felt awkward around my MIL. I felt like she asked too much of me and my husband. It wasn't true. She just wanted to see us and her grandchildren. She places a great importance on family. She is a marvelous cook and immensely enjoys hosting holiday dinners. I think that car trips are a pain in the ass. My in-laws don't feel this way, since they travel by car often for business. Just because your wife feels stressed that she has to travel an hour-and-a-half by car with a three year old, doesn't mean that others perceive this as stressful. Honestly, it's not that long.
Your wife could compromise a little. If it were me I would be happy and relieved that I didn't have to cook and host Thanksgiving dinner. I'm hoping that duty won't come for years. Your parents traveled with you when you were a kid, and your wife's family most likely did the same. Go with the flow, it's only one day. The kid will be fine. He's not an infant any more.
I can so relate to your wife and I understand what she is feeling, but I hope she can relax and enjoy, and not feel put out by this invitation.
posted by LoriFLA at 8:18 AM on November 18, 2007
I felt infringed upon that I was asked to drag my kids to different locations on the holidays. Didn't they know how stressful that was?!
These were my feelings in the past: I was stressed and pissed that my little kids would have to endure car trips. I was peeved that I had to get showered and ready earlier in the day, instead of lounging in the comfort of my own house. After dinner I had to chat and wash dishes with the females, and supervise and entertain my children, while my husband and the other men played cards after dinner. (Yes, this is my reality. Although, thankfully, they haven't played cards the last few years.)
I didn't look forward to these holidays. I felt uncomfortable. I already felt that I was compromising tons by spending Christmas Eve with my family and Christmas Day with the in-laws. Thanksgiving is at noon at my parents and five o'clock at the in-laws. This year the in-laws have moved Thanksgiving to four o'clock! My feeling is that we'll get there when we get there.
I do have a point somewhere, I think.
For me, it was a control thing. I felt awkward around my MIL. I felt like she asked too much of me and my husband. It wasn't true. She just wanted to see us and her grandchildren. She places a great importance on family. She is a marvelous cook and immensely enjoys hosting holiday dinners. I think that car trips are a pain in the ass. My in-laws don't feel this way, since they travel by car often for business. Just because your wife feels stressed that she has to travel an hour-and-a-half by car with a three year old, doesn't mean that others perceive this as stressful. Honestly, it's not that long.
Your wife could compromise a little. If it were me I would be happy and relieved that I didn't have to cook and host Thanksgiving dinner. I'm hoping that duty won't come for years. Your parents traveled with you when you were a kid, and your wife's family most likely did the same. Go with the flow, it's only one day. The kid will be fine. He's not an infant any more.
I can so relate to your wife and I understand what she is feeling, but I hope she can relax and enjoy, and not feel put out by this invitation.
posted by LoriFLA at 8:18 AM on November 18, 2007
I think your wife's 'you can go alone' statement is a bit cruel, but maybe I'm just reading it that way.
However, in our family, the family with the youngest children hosted until the kids were 'old enough' - about 6-7. Do you want to deal with a cranky 3-year-old away from home, or at home? However, when the kid's older, it's time to alternate. The only rationale for keeping it at home is to pragmatically manage young children. If she makes any other argument against the alternation compromise, it's not valid.
When you're older and travelling to the city on alternate holidays, you can take your MIL along.
posted by cobaltnine at 8:19 AM on November 18, 2007
However, in our family, the family with the youngest children hosted until the kids were 'old enough' - about 6-7. Do you want to deal with a cranky 3-year-old away from home, or at home? However, when the kid's older, it's time to alternate. The only rationale for keeping it at home is to pragmatically manage young children. If she makes any other argument against the alternation compromise, it's not valid.
When you're older and travelling to the city on alternate holidays, you can take your MIL along.
posted by cobaltnine at 8:19 AM on November 18, 2007
100 miles is short enough to count as a day trip. One compromise would be to go to your parents' house as a day trip, rather than an overnighter or extended stay.
posted by yesster at 8:48 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by yesster at 8:48 AM on November 18, 2007
The only rationale for keeping it at home is to pragmatically manage young children.
Can I just point out--the holidays are going to be at somebody's home. Thinking a bit about who you automatically think that somebody will be, absent a "valid" rationale to do things otherwise, says a lot about who you consider your primary family, and whose traditions are important to maintain. (Not to pick on you cobaltnine, that just jumped out at me so strongly.)
You and your wife obviously grew up with very different traditions around how you spend the holidays. It's going to be hard to compromise, if for no other reason that it seems like you both may have a hard time even seeing the starting point of the other person. I'm much more like your wife--it's very important to me to create my own traditions as I get older and my primary attachments shift from my birth family to my partner--and it would make me very, very sad if he ever implied (as the OP did above) that there was no point in staying home and starting our traditions, because it's the same old boring place as the other 364 days a year. Whatever he intended by that, I would have a hard time not seeing it as statement about the relative importance of me and the family we're creating together compared to the importance of the family he grew up in.
posted by iminurmefi at 8:51 AM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
Can I just point out--the holidays are going to be at somebody's home. Thinking a bit about who you automatically think that somebody will be, absent a "valid" rationale to do things otherwise, says a lot about who you consider your primary family, and whose traditions are important to maintain. (Not to pick on you cobaltnine, that just jumped out at me so strongly.)
You and your wife obviously grew up with very different traditions around how you spend the holidays. It's going to be hard to compromise, if for no other reason that it seems like you both may have a hard time even seeing the starting point of the other person. I'm much more like your wife--it's very important to me to create my own traditions as I get older and my primary attachments shift from my birth family to my partner--and it would make me very, very sad if he ever implied (as the OP did above) that there was no point in staying home and starting our traditions, because it's the same old boring place as the other 364 days a year. Whatever he intended by that, I would have a hard time not seeing it as statement about the relative importance of me and the family we're creating together compared to the importance of the family he grew up in.
posted by iminurmefi at 8:51 AM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
I grew up loathing Christmas, and I still do. My grandparents divorced when my mother was about 12 or so, and she never really had proper Christmases, so this is HER day. No one else matters. And every second year we traveled to my grandmother's house for the day. And my grandmother is a ruthless manipulator.
One of the highlights of living in Japan for ten years was never having to celebrate Christmas, except when I went back home...
My point is that Christmas is not a normal holiday, and that it brings out the worst in people. The best you can do is compromise: one year at home, one year spent visiting relatives.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:01 AM on November 18, 2007
One of the highlights of living in Japan for ten years was never having to celebrate Christmas, except when I went back home...
My point is that Christmas is not a normal holiday, and that it brings out the worst in people. The best you can do is compromise: one year at home, one year spent visiting relatives.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:01 AM on November 18, 2007
I grew up in a military family. Living in exotic faraway places, we always spent the holidays at home and had no expecttation of traveling to visit relatives. Later on, when I first lived on my own, I went back 1600 miles to see my parents either on Christmas or Thanksgiving but not both. It simply wasn't practical. Still later, after moving in with my then-partner and living in the first home that we actually owned, it was very special to settle in and make our own holiday traditions in our own space. And that's without any kids in the mix.
Much much later, I was able to visit my mother in the hospital Christmas Eve last year, 4 hours away from my home; my father was in a nursing home and I did not see him. They have both since passed on, my mother just last month. My partner and I are in a new home and longing to make our own holiday again, but we are so moved by all of this that instead, we're leaving Monday on a 1200-mile drive to visit his elderly parents at Thanksgiving. They may not be here next year, and we'll still have our Christmas at home.
It's hard and stressful, and after my mother's death last month I'd love to stay home and veg-out and not go anywhere at all. Yet, this is a good thing to do, and I would always regret not taking this new trip if my partner's family experiences the same loss. And I know, from hearing one side of his phone calls every day, how much happiness and joy this is bringing him and his folks.
I'm ranbling, sorry, but here's my advice: Compromise, and concentrate on the love, and nourishing the love with all your family. There may not be a way to make everyone happy here, but there must be a way to make everyone feel loved.
posted by Robert Angelo at 9:04 AM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
Much much later, I was able to visit my mother in the hospital Christmas Eve last year, 4 hours away from my home; my father was in a nursing home and I did not see him. They have both since passed on, my mother just last month. My partner and I are in a new home and longing to make our own holiday again, but we are so moved by all of this that instead, we're leaving Monday on a 1200-mile drive to visit his elderly parents at Thanksgiving. They may not be here next year, and we'll still have our Christmas at home.
It's hard and stressful, and after my mother's death last month I'd love to stay home and veg-out and not go anywhere at all. Yet, this is a good thing to do, and I would always regret not taking this new trip if my partner's family experiences the same loss. And I know, from hearing one side of his phone calls every day, how much happiness and joy this is bringing him and his folks.
I'm ranbling, sorry, but here's my advice: Compromise, and concentrate on the love, and nourishing the love with all your family. There may not be a way to make everyone happy here, but there must be a way to make everyone feel loved.
posted by Robert Angelo at 9:04 AM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites]
Can I just point out--the holidays are going to be at somebody's home. Thinking a bit about who you automatically think that somebody will be, absent a "valid" rationale to do things otherwise, says a lot about who you consider your primary family, and whose traditions are important to maintain. (Not to pick on you cobaltnine, that just jumped out at me so strongly.)
Thank you. I'm rolypolyman's wife. I won't go into all the details I feel were left out in his OP, but what you stated above is certainly a big part of this. I want the opportunity to give our son the kind of memories and feelings about the holidays that make my husband nostalgic for his childhood home at this time of year. I only have a few short years to do that. His parents are wonderful in-laws, and are always welcome and explicitly invited to our house at the holidays. We have gone to their home many times for Thanksgiving and Christmas.
Furthermore, I have major ethical concerns about travel which I am not interested in discussing in this thread. I believe my feelings and my ethical concerns are quite valid. My goal is to find a solution that my husband and I can both truly accept, because resentment around the holidays will ruin them no matter where we spend them.
Driving 100 miles each way in the worst traffic of the year from our home in the country to a huge metropolis that makes me sick just to look at may not be a big deal to some of you, but I don't think it's for you to judge whether it should be a big deal to me or not. You don't know me or my history, and "reasonable" does not exist in a vacuum independent of human feelings and experiences.
posted by shannymara at 9:14 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Thank you. I'm rolypolyman's wife. I won't go into all the details I feel were left out in his OP, but what you stated above is certainly a big part of this. I want the opportunity to give our son the kind of memories and feelings about the holidays that make my husband nostalgic for his childhood home at this time of year. I only have a few short years to do that. His parents are wonderful in-laws, and are always welcome and explicitly invited to our house at the holidays. We have gone to their home many times for Thanksgiving and Christmas.
Furthermore, I have major ethical concerns about travel which I am not interested in discussing in this thread. I believe my feelings and my ethical concerns are quite valid. My goal is to find a solution that my husband and I can both truly accept, because resentment around the holidays will ruin them no matter where we spend them.
Driving 100 miles each way in the worst traffic of the year from our home in the country to a huge metropolis that makes me sick just to look at may not be a big deal to some of you, but I don't think it's for you to judge whether it should be a big deal to me or not. You don't know me or my history, and "reasonable" does not exist in a vacuum independent of human feelings and experiences.
posted by shannymara at 9:14 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Your son is 3. Just curious: what did you guys do for the past 2 years?
posted by AlisonM at 9:19 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by AlisonM at 9:19 AM on November 18, 2007
Where I'm from 100 miles is no sweat. We once drove across 3 states for Christmas when I was two. I remember it.
Someone above said that you should think more about your wife and less about your parents. I think they're coming from the wrong angle. You aren't just thinking about your parents but also about your son and his time with his grandparents.
posted by fructose at 9:30 AM on November 18, 2007
Someone above said that you should think more about your wife and less about your parents. I think they're coming from the wrong angle. You aren't just thinking about your parents but also about your son and his time with his grandparents.
posted by fructose at 9:30 AM on November 18, 2007
When I was growing up, my family traveled for every single holiday and I hated it. Truly, truly hated it. I didn't mind visiting family during the summer break, but for some reason I just didn't want to leave home during holidays.
Once I had children and a house of my own, I put my foot down regarding Christmas. It's always at home. My home. I wanted my children to wake up on Christmas morning in their own beds. We have our traditions and everyone and anyone on both sides of the family is more than welcome to come celebrate with us, and most do just that. My mother often makes the trip alone because my dad doesn't like to travel. She's more than happy to let me take over and she helps tremendously with preparations.
As for Thanksgiving, we go to my parents' house. It's a four-hour drive vs. a two-hour drive to my MIL's house, but to be brutally honest, she's just not a good cook. My husband would be the first to agree, and he really looks forward to going to my parents' home. Not so incidentally, every time he goes to his mother's home she asks him to do various things around the house for her (painting, lawn mowing, fixing things) and he enjoys the fact that he can just relax at my parents' house.
As a compromise, we spend Easter at my MIL's because it's an important holiday to her. Maybe if you talk to your wife a bit more you can come up with some ideas that are amenable to you both.
posted by cooker girl at 9:34 AM on November 18, 2007
Once I had children and a house of my own, I put my foot down regarding Christmas. It's always at home. My home. I wanted my children to wake up on Christmas morning in their own beds. We have our traditions and everyone and anyone on both sides of the family is more than welcome to come celebrate with us, and most do just that. My mother often makes the trip alone because my dad doesn't like to travel. She's more than happy to let me take over and she helps tremendously with preparations.
As for Thanksgiving, we go to my parents' house. It's a four-hour drive vs. a two-hour drive to my MIL's house, but to be brutally honest, she's just not a good cook. My husband would be the first to agree, and he really looks forward to going to my parents' home. Not so incidentally, every time he goes to his mother's home she asks him to do various things around the house for her (painting, lawn mowing, fixing things) and he enjoys the fact that he can just relax at my parents' house.
As a compromise, we spend Easter at my MIL's because it's an important holiday to her. Maybe if you talk to your wife a bit more you can come up with some ideas that are amenable to you both.
posted by cooker girl at 9:34 AM on November 18, 2007
I think both of your plans are reasonable. The problem is that they're mutually incompatible. You should work this out in the same way you work out other relationship issues.
For those who are saying the poster's wife is wrong, have you ever taken a 100 mile car ride with a 3-year-old? It changes the whole tenor of the trip, especially if your spouse is driving and you are delegated to provide constant entertainment.
posted by ikkyu2 at 9:55 AM on November 18, 2007
For those who are saying the poster's wife is wrong, have you ever taken a 100 mile car ride with a 3-year-old? It changes the whole tenor of the trip, especially if your spouse is driving and you are delegated to provide constant entertainment.
posted by ikkyu2 at 9:55 AM on November 18, 2007
Furthermore, I have major ethical concerns about travel which I am not interested in discussing in this thread. I believe my feelings and my ethical concerns are quite valid. My goal is to find a solution that my husband and I can both truly accept, because resentment around the holidays will ruin them no matter where we spend them
How very nice. But I think you are forgetting you are not the only one whose opinion matters. You are married, and your spouse has JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to have a say in how your holiday is spent.
If I was your husband I would be seriously tempted to take MY son and go to MY parent's house for the holidays and let you do whatever the heck you wanted.
posted by konolia at 10:00 AM on November 18, 2007
How very nice. But I think you are forgetting you are not the only one whose opinion matters. You are married, and your spouse has JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to have a say in how your holiday is spent.
If I was your husband I would be seriously tempted to take MY son and go to MY parent's house for the holidays and let you do whatever the heck you wanted.
posted by konolia at 10:00 AM on November 18, 2007
Ikkyu2, I have driven from Pensacola to Fayetteville freaking NC with THREE toddlers in the back seat.
I have also flown BY MYSELF with a one, two, and three year old. Again, from Pensacola to Fayetteville. And back.
Suck it up. It's part of parenthood. All the parts are not equally joyous.
posted by konolia at 10:01 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
I have also flown BY MYSELF with a one, two, and three year old. Again, from Pensacola to Fayetteville. And back.
Suck it up. It's part of parenthood. All the parts are not equally joyous.
posted by konolia at 10:01 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
. . . and the wife appears to state that there is, in fact, something else going on.
re: the travel, and your ethical concerns surrounding it - I hear you, and frankly we're lucky it's only 2 hours to one parents' house and 45 minutes to the others'. However - if there is a time to compromise about travel, the holidays is probably it.
That being said, it still comes down to compromise. If you feel very strongly that you want Christmas to occur at YOUR house, then maybe Thanksgiving is the compromise. We always woke up in our house and had Christmas at our house - Santa Claus, opening presents, all that - and then had lunch or dinner with the family at my grandparents' or aunt's house. Splitting the day was never something I remember being terrible, other than that my mother's sister is insane.
I'd forgotten about it, but when I was really small, my mom and her sister alternated holidays. We'd do Thanksgiving at our house and Christmas at theirs (with the gifts at our house in the morning, of course) and then the next year we would switch, so we always spent some portion of the holidays at home (and we always spent Christmas Eve at home). Hopefully between the two of you, you can work out something that will address your concerns about travel and his concerns about including family. Good luck, and try not to kill him over posting this.
posted by Medieval Maven at 10:08 AM on November 18, 2007
re: the travel, and your ethical concerns surrounding it - I hear you, and frankly we're lucky it's only 2 hours to one parents' house and 45 minutes to the others'. However - if there is a time to compromise about travel, the holidays is probably it.
That being said, it still comes down to compromise. If you feel very strongly that you want Christmas to occur at YOUR house, then maybe Thanksgiving is the compromise. We always woke up in our house and had Christmas at our house - Santa Claus, opening presents, all that - and then had lunch or dinner with the family at my grandparents' or aunt's house. Splitting the day was never something I remember being terrible, other than that my mother's sister is insane.
I'd forgotten about it, but when I was really small, my mom and her sister alternated holidays. We'd do Thanksgiving at our house and Christmas at theirs (with the gifts at our house in the morning, of course) and then the next year we would switch, so we always spent some portion of the holidays at home (and we always spent Christmas Eve at home). Hopefully between the two of you, you can work out something that will address your concerns about travel and his concerns about including family. Good luck, and try not to kill him over posting this.
posted by Medieval Maven at 10:08 AM on November 18, 2007
How very nice. But I think you are forgetting you are not the only one whose opinion matters. You are married, and your spouse has JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to have a say in how your holiday is spent.
Hence, all the posters who are suggesting compromise. And compromise means different things to different people. For you, konolia, it has meant engaging in significant inconvenience -- but there are other ways to do it, I think. If we assume that compromise means that each partner is entitled to an absolute, intractable position, then all we have is a deadlock, no?
I'm not big on holidays. My partner is, and has a warm and welcoming family. I encourage her to go to her parents for the holidays because it's significant to her. For me, the idea of traveling with a million other people on inevitably delayed and overcrowded flights, trains, and buses sucks whatever joy is to be gotten out of the holidays. I try to make it up to her in other ways, by traveling to see her parents with her when it's not so fraught, and by making time in my schedule for when her family comes to NYC. Granted, there are no kids in our mix, and consequently no worries about happy memories to be created.
posted by lassie at 10:15 AM on November 18, 2007
Hence, all the posters who are suggesting compromise. And compromise means different things to different people. For you, konolia, it has meant engaging in significant inconvenience -- but there are other ways to do it, I think. If we assume that compromise means that each partner is entitled to an absolute, intractable position, then all we have is a deadlock, no?
I'm not big on holidays. My partner is, and has a warm and welcoming family. I encourage her to go to her parents for the holidays because it's significant to her. For me, the idea of traveling with a million other people on inevitably delayed and overcrowded flights, trains, and buses sucks whatever joy is to be gotten out of the holidays. I try to make it up to her in other ways, by traveling to see her parents with her when it's not so fraught, and by making time in my schedule for when her family comes to NYC. Granted, there are no kids in our mix, and consequently no worries about happy memories to be created.
posted by lassie at 10:15 AM on November 18, 2007
I have to side with the wife. Being the mother of a young child means that the work of traveling will mostly fall to her along with all the other holiday stuff. Also, this is the first year the child will really enjoy and experience the fun of the holidays. Why muck that up with traveling? The child needs to stay in his bed on his schedule so the whole family can enjoy the day. When we had children, our travel stopped and now the grands, who are much more mobile, come to us. Plenty of time later to establish "over the river and through the woods" traditions when he's older and an easier traveler. Good luck and happy holidays!!
posted by pearlybob at 10:16 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by pearlybob at 10:16 AM on November 18, 2007
Shannymara, I was actually going to suggest what Medieval Maven did--how about having one of the holidays (Christmas or Hanukkah) always at home, with other family members invited if they care to make the trip, while a different holiday (like Thanksgiving) is reserved as the one where you all will make the effort to visit parents and extended family (both yours and his)? That way, you're definitely building traditions and memories for your son around one particular holiday, while also getting maintain your relationships with other family members and give your son a chance to bond with more extended family on other holidays.
I hear you on the travel / pollution thing, but I think any solution short of never visiting anyone nor allowing them to visit you is unfortunately going to contribute to that problem, so perhaps figuring out the solution to the tradition thing then figuring out how to minimize the ecological cost would be easier (someone's got to travel, so it may be a net neutral effect whether you go or they come to you).
posted by iminurmefi at 10:17 AM on November 18, 2007
I hear you on the travel / pollution thing, but I think any solution short of never visiting anyone nor allowing them to visit you is unfortunately going to contribute to that problem, so perhaps figuring out the solution to the tradition thing then figuring out how to minimize the ecological cost would be easier (someone's got to travel, so it may be a net neutral effect whether you go or they come to you).
posted by iminurmefi at 10:17 AM on November 18, 2007
Well, my point still stands that the husband has just as much right to decide as the wife does. I bet there are areas of life in which HE is severely inconvenienced in order to benefit HER. The fact that apparently she said that if he wanted to go to his folks house he could do it alone speaks volumes. I wasn't there when she said it but from here it sounds terribly disrespectful. If the situation was reversed I can only imagine what we'd all be saying!
posted by konolia at 10:20 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by konolia at 10:20 AM on November 18, 2007
shannymara: If your son is 3, it seems to me that you have a good 15 to 20 years to develop holiday memories, probably many more than that. I'm 46, and some of the most precious "family" times were spent with my elderly parents. Driving to San Antonio in the rain last year and getting lost downtown at night trying to find my Mom in the hospital, then seeing the little 6-inch tree and the tiny teddy bear she had were immensely more imporant than what happened in 1964. I can't even remember that year.
Later childhood, by contrast, was so easily focused on the Sears Wish Book, the Holiday TV shows and parades, the glitter and glamour, Santas and Grinches, the Midnight Mass, the hustle and bustle. So often the superficial came to supersede the personal.
I don't know what it takes for the two of you to compromise, and of course, I don't know details about your situation. I do know, and I repeat, that the love is the most important thing. I'd like to think that your ethics, and those of rolypolyman, too, would concur.
posted by Robert Angelo at 10:31 AM on November 18, 2007
Later childhood, by contrast, was so easily focused on the Sears Wish Book, the Holiday TV shows and parades, the glitter and glamour, Santas and Grinches, the Midnight Mass, the hustle and bustle. So often the superficial came to supersede the personal.
I don't know what it takes for the two of you to compromise, and of course, I don't know details about your situation. I do know, and I repeat, that the love is the most important thing. I'd like to think that your ethics, and those of rolypolyman, too, would concur.
posted by Robert Angelo at 10:31 AM on November 18, 2007
If the situation was reversed I can only imagine what we'd all be saying!
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be saying the same thing no matter which partner expressed this opinion. I agree with your general point that ultimatums rarely end well in relationships, but it's important to keep your other point in mind -- we don't know how it was phrased, and what the context was. For all we know, it was a much more reasonable statement than that, or it came at the end of a long, acrimonious discussion between the partners and, while improvidently uttered, is forgivable because that's what partners do sometimes. Although, if I were the original poster, I'd be very hesitant to subject my partner's ill-thought out ultimatum to the scrutiny of the internet.
posted by lassie at 10:32 AM on November 18, 2007
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be saying the same thing no matter which partner expressed this opinion. I agree with your general point that ultimatums rarely end well in relationships, but it's important to keep your other point in mind -- we don't know how it was phrased, and what the context was. For all we know, it was a much more reasonable statement than that, or it came at the end of a long, acrimonious discussion between the partners and, while improvidently uttered, is forgivable because that's what partners do sometimes. Although, if I were the original poster, I'd be very hesitant to subject my partner's ill-thought out ultimatum to the scrutiny of the internet.
posted by lassie at 10:32 AM on November 18, 2007
My goal is to find a solution that my husband and I can both truly accept, because resentment around the holidays will ruin them no matter where we spend them.
So compromise, because you love each other. And don't let resentment grow, because that's stupid.
posted by lullabyofbirdland at 10:34 AM on November 18, 2007
So compromise, because you love each other. And don't let resentment grow, because that's stupid.
posted by lullabyofbirdland at 10:34 AM on November 18, 2007
you offered her a compromise, half a loaf, but she wants the whole damn loaf, every crumb, some people are like that. you either take your half or get used to being her subordinate for the rest of your life.
posted by bruce at 10:45 AM on November 18, 2007
posted by bruce at 10:45 AM on November 18, 2007
Wow, I just read through all the posts in this thread. It's rather amazing how everyone makes so many assumptions, particularly that my husband's explanation of my position is accurate. I'm not about to go into a bunch of details about our personal business on the internet to justify my position, which he drastically oversimplified and misrepresented. I have the best interest of our son in mind, and that's all anyone here needs to know. This is really nobody's business.
posted by shannymara at 10:50 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by shannymara at 10:50 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
It's rather amazing how everyone makes so many assumptions, particularly that my husband's explanation of my position is accurate.
Not everyone, Shannymara. Go back and read the thread again -- there are a few people who are saying that we don't know exactly what happened. But I do agree with you that perhaps the two of you need to step away from your computers for some time and try to resolve this issue in the privacy of your relationship. And, in "this issue" I include his choice to post this question here in the first place.
posted by lassie at 10:56 AM on November 18, 2007
Not everyone, Shannymara. Go back and read the thread again -- there are a few people who are saying that we don't know exactly what happened. But I do agree with you that perhaps the two of you need to step away from your computers for some time and try to resolve this issue in the privacy of your relationship. And, in "this issue" I include his choice to post this question here in the first place.
posted by lassie at 10:56 AM on November 18, 2007
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Maybe just stay at home for this year and next year until your son is 5. If you flat out agree to stay home the next two years, when your son is 5 or 6 I bet your wife won't have a problem with starting to do more traveling during one of the two holidays each year. Plus I don't think a 3-4 year old will really remember much later on when they grow up.
posted by cashman at 6:46 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]