I don't like most young gay guys. But I AM one of them. Help!

July 6, 2007 9:32 AM

I'm a 25 year old gay male and I'm scared to get involved with dating. Guys my age seem shallow and snarky.

I have some issues with the gay (male) community. Most of my gay friends are promiscuous, like going clubbing, are judgmental, sarcastic, and shallow. I'm not into clubbing, casual sex, or being sarcastic and mean. We have fun together, but I would never want to date anyone like that. I just don't feel like I can handle being disappointed by men this early in my life. It would be too demoralizing.

I'm sure lots of the gays my age will grow out of it, but it would be nice if I could get involved in a good relationship soon. Where do I meet kind guys in their 20s who aren't all about having fun and looking perfect? I know they exist but they're hard to find because they're low-key.
Any advice for me at all? I live in Los Angeles. Do young, out gays behave like this everywhere or is it only the urban ones who are like this?

P.S. I swear I'm not trolling. I'm as gay as gay can be and I love my older gay friends who seem more "real." It's just the ones in their 20s and some in their 30s that I take issue with.

posted by oldlies to human relations (31 answers total)

You're not the only one. I am sick to death of many facets of the gay lifestyle, same as you. Pity you don't live in Toronto...

Bottom line, though, what you're sick of is the mainstream gay culture. There are lots and lots and lots of gay boys out there--mid 20's, even!--who have as little patience for it as you and I do. Try looking at alterna-queer events, try going to gay pubs instead of gay clubs. Look in your local gay paper for reading groups, dining groups, that sort of thing.

We're out there. Pun intended.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:36 AM on July 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

You're in a scene. What kind of activities put you in this scene?

What kind of activities might situate yourself in a community, rather than a scene?
posted by entropone at 9:36 AM on July 6, 2007

I'm not really in a scene. I know most of my gay friends through work. I don't hang out with them at clubs, etc. I will spend one-on-one time with them at quieter places for lunch, dinner. I just know about their lifestyle from our conversations. When I go out for fun, I'll often go out with straight women or with my siblings.
posted by oldlies at 9:43 AM on July 6, 2007

I myself am not gay but have some gay friends in MA. They are in their 20's and are not shallow by any means. I'm not sure how they met but I know they would have the same issues as you do. I don't really have any suggestions, but I just wanted to let you know that there are "real" people out there, you just gotta keep lookin.
Best of luck to ye.
posted by jammnrose at 9:44 AM on July 6, 2007

Right, if you want to find someone out of the scene, then you have to look out of the scene. Which unfortunately means, go on about your business doing the things you like, and keep an eye out for others as you go. Instead of searching out someone, simply appraise and enjoy who and what is around you, whether they are a romantic possibility or not. Start getting into things you have always wanted to do, whether or not any of your friends wants to do them with you.

And try to relax about it. Like you, during my early twenties I was so desperate to meet someone (if for no other reason than just to prove someone like that existed). Every new person I met, every room I was in, everything was subjected to my Terminator-esque scan for potential suitors. Not only does this behavior turn one into a restless neurotic, but it is hard to ditch later on when you finally find someone you're interested in. If everything you do subconsciously becomes a means toward finding love, you will find yourself gravitating toward this pattern whenever you are lonely or bored. I've at least improved to the point where I can ride the subway without making a mental inventory of all the guys on it and what they're reading.

Living in a place with so many guys, it is only a matter of time. Enjoy your life foremost, and before long you'll probably find yourself spending a huge chunk of it with someone.
posted by hermitosis at 9:52 AM on July 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

This may sound a little corny and it depends on whether you like to bowl or not but, a gay bowling league would expose you to a wide variety of people outside of a bar or club scene. I have a friend who expressed the same type of frustrations you have and he really enjoyed the people he bowled with. It would allow you to meet a bunch of people in a social but not a meat market place. Good luck, there are good guys out there.
posted by estronaut at 9:52 AM on July 6, 2007

Where do I meet kind guys in their 20s who aren't all about having fun and looking perfect?

Check with your local GLBT community center for off-beat events and activities, like square-dancing, bridge clubs, or cycling. Expand your range of activities and you'll meet all kinds of good, quirky, interesting, down-to-earth people.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:57 AM on July 6, 2007

(Un)fortunately, it's not just a gay thing, although aspects of sceney-ness are probably more exaggerated in the "gay scene" than in other "scenes". I suspect it has as much to do with mid-20s-age people in L.A. as it does gayness.

Anyway, what else do you like to do? Hike? Play a sport? Photography? Build model ships? There are gay groups for just about everything, and I bet there's one for whatever established or nascent hobbies you have. Can't find a group? Start one!

F'r instance, here's a gay hiking group. It may be a lot of couples, or outdoorsy lesbians, but if you're not into things your friends are into, maybe you should expand your circle of friends - I almost always have met girlfriends through mutual friends, and not in bars or bookclubs. So you might not get a boyfriend right away, but you'll likely make some good friends.
posted by rtha at 9:58 AM on July 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

I agree with rtha. This question could just as easily say "I'm a 25 year old ... and guys my age seem shallow and snarky." Look outside the box. You'll find what you need there.
posted by Brittanie at 10:20 AM on July 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

When I was your age, I joined a GLBT religious group, in my case, Dignity. We celebrated Mass on Sundays, had various social and social-service activities, and I met lots of people of different styles and personality types. Most denominations have a similar GLBT interest group, or you could try MCC, or even a gay athiest group if you're not religious.

These sorts of groups -- and others mentioned above -- are topic or activity oriented, and gather people of similar mind or taste. Thus, you get opportunity for more interaction beyond drinking, smoking, sarcasm, or general campiness (although there's probably plenty enough of those, too).
posted by Robert Angelo at 10:25 AM on July 6, 2007

I kind of feel most people at 25 seem shallow and snarky - I kid, I kid, of course. I do think there's definitely a certain urban club goer who's just plain annoying, and doubly so in a group - so you're not the only one annoyed.

There are a lot of great suggestions here - definitely go out to your local GLBT center, and also go to as many kinds of events suited to your interests. And there are a plethora of online dating sites of all types - sites like Consumating and OK Cupid cater to a few more clued in set of people who are interested in meeting and are real people rather than those who list 'getting plastered' as an activity. I'm sure there are better sites elsewhere as well - those two are just the tip of the iceberg. Good luck! (meant in a 'good luck and have fun, rather than 'good luck snarkiness' sense).
posted by rmm at 10:27 AM on July 6, 2007

I kind of feel most people at 25 seem shallow and snarky

I agree with this, and I'm not joking. I didn't want to date 25 year old men either, and I'm straight(-ish) and female. So I dated older guys. Maybe you should too.
posted by desjardins at 10:40 AM on July 6, 2007

The main queer-specific issue here is that, in the queer community, we have the added pressure of hearing from so many different directions -- in more or less subtle ways -- that our relationships are more likely to be shallow, impermanent, non-serious and invalid than het relationships. Some people, especially guys and especially in image-conscious cities like LA, internalize that by, in a way, embracing "aggressive shallowness" and getting stuck in a sort of extended childhood (but with nasty adult elements like the snark you mention). Some people, on the other hand, become quite serious and have quite high standards, thinking (if only subconsciously) that any relationships they have must be excellent, successful, long-term, 'model relationships' or they will have failed to represent their people...

Is it possilbe you might subconsciously be heading towards that second category?

One thing that struck me in your post was "I just don't feel like I can handle being disappointed by men this early in my life. It would be too demoralizing."

I think it's pretty much unheard of for any of us, queer or straight, to avoid being disappointed by partners repeatedly over our lives. Especially when they're young virtually EVERYBODY makes some missteps, meets incompatible people, or is in a "right person / wrong time in their life" situation. I think of it as a cycle that balances out. Heartache and joy balance out over time. You don't get a chance at the joy without the likelihood (maybe inevitability) of the heartache...
posted by lorimer at 10:46 AM on July 6, 2007

I can't believe that no one has suggested internet dating yet. I'm young, gay, unpromiscuous, not too shallow, drug-free, only mildly sarcastic, and wildly successful in finding men online. Got a MySpace profile? Check out that "Browse" function. Sort by orientation, zip code, smoking preference, height... they're made to order! You could even go whole hog and pay for a profile on Nerve.com or True.com or one of those other sites. Meeting someone online used to carry a stigma, but after going to a stinky club and having some sweaty dude in a harness try to jerk you off at the urinal, it suddenly seems like a much more viable option.
posted by Help, I can't stop talking! at 10:56 AM on July 6, 2007

I think a lot of this is just twentyness not gayness, and you're right, most of them will grow out of it. But in the meantime, if you don't want to date older guys, then meet different guys.

I imagine you're going to find more serious, grounded people working at battered spouse shelters, voting rights foundations, food kitchens, urban outreaches, environmental action groups, HIV and AIDS non-profits than you're going to meet at work or at clubs.

If you want a dating pool full of thoughtful, socially responsible people, go to places with a higher than usual concentration of thoughtful, socially-responsible people. Internalizing homophobia because you meet party people at parties and clubs is short-sighted, and serves nobody.
posted by headspace at 11:04 AM on July 6, 2007

I'm coming at this from the margins, since I'm a straight woman, but I noticed that my gay male friends who complained about the same issues you're complaining about and who were looking for more intellectually stimulating, long-term relationships also tended to hang out more at not-exclusively-gay venues. Going out with friends, regardless of gender or orientation, was more important than seeking out places with lots of hot guys.

Which meant they often hung out in places that also attract graduate-student types, low-key bars and restaurants where in-depth conversations were possible and the crowds were mixed enough that no one (straight or gay) felt out of place.

Granted, they often had trouble *meeting* people at these places, since the ratio of gay men is lower than in exclusively gay establishments, and I often made suggestions similar to Blazecock Pileon's when my friends made complaints similar to yours. But it may still be worthwhile to expand your hang-outs to those that attract more mixed crowds, if that's not something you're currently doing.
posted by occhiblu at 11:09 AM on July 6, 2007

I just don't feel like I can handle being disappointed by men this early in my life. It would be too demoralizing.

you made it this far without being demoralized?

i have to agree with others who say it's not just 20something gay guys. it's a lot of 20somethings male, female, gay straight, whatever. it's how we grew up. entitlement, etc.

but, not all 20somethings are vapid and appearance-obsessed. you just have to stay on the outer edges of the scene to find them.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 11:23 AM on July 6, 2007

Nthing the recommendations to get away from the bar/club crowds and seek out gay activity groups. Chances are, however, you'll be one of the younger people there -- but then you may find that as you make genuine connections with more emotionally/spiritually mature men, age & youthful good looks become somewhat less important in terms of potential partners. On the other hand, maybe you'll meet someone just like yourself, looking for exactly what you're looking for.

Also, I think lorimer has a good point, though I'd spin it a slightly different way: if you're looking for a perfect partner and/or relationship, you'll never find one. You might want to consider whether your standards are so uncompromisingly high that no real, flawed, human being could ever meet them.

Also nthing the recommendations for internet dating -- I'd suggest being very clear about what kind of person you're looking for.

Maybe another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes group dynamics reinforce certain behaviors, and that, outside of the context of a hip gay nightspot, some of those shallow people might show more depth.
posted by treepour at 11:43 AM on July 6, 2007

You'd better be sure you notice and recognize people dressed and behaving in a non-scenester way. I often feel that such people don't even see, let alone consider social interactions with, people who aren't carrying a fendi bag/wearing the right hoodie/whatever. It sounds like you do need to find an appropriate scene, like many above have said, and that it should be focused on aspects of your personality that are unlike the shallow perezzers or whatever they are. So: political activism, spirituality, philosophy? Whatever you find meaning or comfort in, figure out how to share the expereince of it and pursue time in places where like-minded people go. The insubstantiality of LA hip dating culture is legendary.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:11 PM on July 6, 2007

The early-mid 20's gay men I know seem more your style; they're graduate/medical students, and people involved in gay community/outreach activities. Think of what responsible smart young men are doing with their lives, and you'll find responsible smart gay young men doing those things.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:17 PM on July 6, 2007

What you wrote sounds a lot like what happened to me in my mid-20's. I was single, spending time with a group of guys who were fun enough to go out with, but they were also not people I would have ever thought of as truly close friends. And I saw much of what you did with guys being snide and looks-obsessed.

I'm one who doesn't believe that it has to do with age as much as it does context. Yes, get out of the bar/club/gay neighborhood scene and start going to meetup groups and volunteer activities that really genuinely interest you. I worked for GLAAD and GLSEN, and through a friend-of-a-friend I met there, was introduced to my partner.

At the same time, I'm a big believer in getting your friends (straight women, especially) to keep their eyes open for someone they think would be compatible with you. Of course, ask friends who you think who'll do a good job of filtering out unsuitable dates, and avoid asking ones you think will just set up with anyone gay. I met two of my best boyfriends this way.

But seriously, jettison the gay friends who are making you feel bad--life is too short to waste on crappy friendships.
posted by yellowcandy at 12:19 PM on July 6, 2007

shake things up in your life! take healthy, safe chances or do something you have either never done before or have seldom done. in my case, it was getting involved in radical queer politics and also (as other posters have stated) mixed up the types of people I've hung out with. it was just such a chance i took over half a dozen years ago of going to a meeting of a group i'd heard about where i not only met my main sweetie but also met a bunch of other people who became and still are good friends.

think big, think creatively and embrace the beauty of random chance ... good luck!
posted by kuppajava at 12:58 PM on July 6, 2007

Having just moved to LA myself, and not being gay, I can't necessarily help you with the specifics here. But having had a share of gay pals who ALL bitched about this (even the shallow, snarky ones always complained about not being able to meet better classes of men), I have some advice.

First off, the people telling you to follow your interests are dead on. Do what you enjoy doing, and in most cases there will be another gay guy there doing it too (unless my demographics are skewed from too much time in a college town). Hiking, especially, seems oddly prominent in LA. I've been told to look at three different hiking groups since I got here. Another place to look is theater groups— while the actors are generally shallow, regardless of gender or orientation (stereotype based on my experience), there are often plenty of deeper folks doing ancillary work, and the theater's known for being accepting of gays. The final place that I've seen good results in is politics. The monthly meetings of Ann Arbor's Aut Bar were the place to go to meet young, liberal, serious guys (and also to court serious money, but that's neither here nor there). They're going to be folks who read the newspapers and happen to be gay.
posted by klangklangston at 12:59 PM on July 6, 2007

Are you one of my friends? Did you subscribe to Metafilter without me knowing about it? I hear this same complaint from my gay boys about once a week -- they want to meet/be friends with/date 'real' people, not the scenesters who average more hair product than body mass and have nothing else to talk about besides getting drunk and shopping.

(My favorite couple, by the way, met online. One works in law enforcement and the other is a comic book geek. I know that doesn't sound like it'd work, but they complement each other fantastically.)

I'll throw another recommendation in for socializing online, since that's what the guys I know have all done. You can meet great people this way, and even if they're not ones you'll wind up dating, they might have other 'real' friends who may interest you. If someone seems interesting, talk to them. If they're not gay, or not male, talk to them anyway, because they might wind up knowing someone who you'd just love and adore. You really never know. And even if you don't get dates out of it, you still wind up ahead, because you have a bigger group of people who share your interests.

And don't feel bad. It's hard for -anyone- at 25 to find a meaningful relationship. Straight people don't magically have an easier time of it, I promise.
posted by cmyk at 1:43 PM on July 6, 2007

I'm 24 and gay, and relatively nearby. And I completely, totally, 100% agree with you. I don't even go out to gay-specific places here anymore - it's just not a healthy scene. I don't own anything clothing with writing on it, let alone a brand name, I don't work out, and I don't pay $700 for a tan when we live in one of the goddamn sunniest places on Earth. You go...guy!

You know, the best time in my life was when I was in college, where I came out, met my first boyfriend, and really felt at home, because I thought, however messed up this sounds, that everyone there had at least made it into college in the first place and wasn't a totally shallow idiot, so I didn't have to do so much wheat-from-chaff sorting. The ratio of intelligent, focused guys to bronzed Abercrombie Adonises was way, way in my favor, being a fan of the former.

I could expect a boyfriend to be able to have conversations about local events, or a class we'd both taken, or even about an article we'd read(!) in a newspaper(!!!), but so could any couple on campus, gay or straight. Furthermore, it was a pretty gay-friendly place, so there was really no pressure to conform to (straight-owned-media-influenced) society's perception of what gay men are supposed to be, which is basically the polar opposite of life here in one of the media capitals of the world.

My suggestion, then, is to seek out a place where you can have very cool shared experiences (that do not involve daiquiris or exposed upper arms) with all types of people, as mentioned above, but with some sorts of (perhaps judgmental and politically-incorrect) barriers to entry that you can meet but the flaky, lame folks you seek to avoid cannot. A UCLA extension class that meets at 9 am on Saturdays? A scuba diving club that requires months of training? Working on an alternative newspaper? Something that requires a soul and receives very little praise, like volunteer work or tutoring/mentoring?

You are not alone. Stay fabulous.
posted by mdonley at 3:27 PM on July 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's just an opinion (especially since I don't live there anymore)... YMMV, but...

Get thee away from West Hollywood and make your way over to Silverlake. If you must go to a club, go to a bar instead. Try out Faultline for a beer bust Sunday and take a look at the other side of the gay scene.

You don't have to be into the bear/leather/muscle scene to find a lot of amazingly 'non-scene' people there.
posted by matty at 3:53 PM on July 6, 2007

No more advice to add, unfortunately, as I'm in roughly the same boat. Just wanted to let you know, you're not alone. We ARE out here.
posted by Zephyrial at 5:43 PM on July 6, 2007

Possibly contrarian opinion here but maybe you're just not ready for a relationship yet. How long have you been out? In my experience many recently-out gay men haven't finished working through their own internalized homophobia, and it externalizes in a kind of cynical, overly critical analysis of the way other gay men live their lives, frequently including feelings of discomfort around "clubbing" and "casual sex". It's no surprise - after all we grow up in a culture that for the most part views our "lifestyle" as sick and wrong, so it would be amazing not to internalize some of that as we grow up. Unfortunately getting past that programming can take quite a long time.

Maybe when you're more comfortable in your own skin you'll find it easier to get to know guys more deeply. Very few are really as shallow as you paint them to be.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 10:34 PM on July 6, 2007

I felt similarly at age 25. I eventually found gay men that I formed lasting friendships with, and after a long road, I met my life partner and fell in love. It took a long while, the road was full of thorns, and there was a lot of trial and error. The time it takes, I think, is part of life. I don't think that the time it takes, or the frustration with it, are limited to gay relationships.

I have gay male friends who have been out for 20+ years who have feelings that are similar to, or at least congruent with, those of the writer of this post. It's possible that living in the Bay Area for that length of time, as most of them (and I) do and have, has made them (and me) cynical. But in my experience, there isn't much correlation between this feeling about the standard urban gay male scene and how long you've been out.
posted by blucevalo at 1:42 AM on July 7, 2007

In my experience many recently-out gay men haven't finished working through their own internalized homophobia, and it externalizes in a kind of cynical, overly critical analysis of the way other gay men live their lives, frequently including feelings of discomfort around "clubbing" and "casual sex".

I've been out for a decade, and my 'discomfort' with clubbing and casual sex is that I've been there, done that. There's more to life than random fucks and random clubs. Not that there isn't a time and a place for those things, but I think what most gay men have a problem with is the pursuit of those things to the exclusion of anything else.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:32 AM on July 7, 2007

I think it’s unhelpful to use the term “internalized homophobia” in the context of answering this guy’s question. That’s a very large hammer for the nail being used.
posted by joeclark at 7:26 AM on July 7, 2007