Foundations without water or electricity? Am I dreaming?

May 24, 2007 6:51 PM

I need to create a foundation for building a shed, with specific parameters, but I have minimal/difficult on-site water and no electricity. Impossible, you may say! But I'd still like to do it. Please help me come up with the best plan to proceed.

I will shortly be building a shed on my bare land, to store things especially in preparation for eventually building a house. It will be 10x10 or possibly 12x12 (the maximum I can build here without getting a permit).

It's going to be built with a post-and-beam frame and cordwood masonry, which ultimately will match our house. As such, I believe the easiest way is to have a floating slab so that the 1' thick wall will sit on it and I have a nice surface to store things on.

I have minimal (muddy) groundwater on the property and no electricity (eventually, this shed will be the first place to have electricity on the property, to build the house with). I could try and get cement trucked in, but that seems like an awful lot of work and expense for a little shed. Or maybe I could use a bunch of railway ties bound together somehow? Or bricks mortared together with the little water I have or can bring in? Or something else entirely?

Or maybe it's easier and not that expensive compared to doing it myself. I don't know, and that's why I am asking you. Got any thoughts?

posted by Kickstart70 to home & garden (31 comments total)

Rubble trench foundation under the walls. Adobe floor, or rammed earth floor. Not that I have personal experience with any of that, mind you. That's just what comes to mind. FWIW, I have read lots of alternative building books.

I do know that muddy water does not make the best concrete.
posted by bricoleur at 7:06 PM on May 24, 2007

A 1" slab is not thick enough. It will crack easily. So will the bricks and mortar. However brick pavers laid over a good bed of crushed gravel and filled with sand should do. I like the idea of railway ties. They are treated, so beware of your placement. You don't want anything leaching out and running into a future lawn or garden area.
posted by Gungho at 7:08 PM on May 24, 2007

You could put it on piers, less water to lug in and pretty sturdy. Build a ramp if you deck it, or just anchor the walls and leave it dirt.

Before you do anything I'd contact the elec. co. and find out what requirements a building must meet before they’ll hook up a service.
posted by BostonJake at 7:24 PM on May 24, 2007

God I sound so old and anal there. Just trying to save you some headaches. Buy a genny and build whatever you want. F*** the power co.
posted by BostonJake at 7:29 PM on May 24, 2007

For me aesthetically, piers wouldn't look good with a cordword masonry building- a heavy structure on sticks. You would have to use more piers than a stick built house.

How rural is the property? That can make a difference.

It is good to think about power, BostonJake. I would also suggest you think about how you will eventually get water. And sewer, too.
posted by Monday at 7:32 PM on May 24, 2007

Oh- is there a flat place to put the shed?
posted by Monday at 7:36 PM on May 24, 2007

I think railway ties, laid over a well-leveled bed of gravel and sand, could definitely work (although you'll be trying to avoid tracking creosote into your house from the shed for the rest of time).

If you wanted to do it right in terms of laying a cement pad, the way I've seen dry-mix done in areas without water, is by renting a small tank truck or trailer-mounted tank. Not sure how much this costs, but I've seen it done by people putting in fencing (more practical than wet-mix cement, I guess?). Maybe you could see if there's a place where you could rent such a truck around. If you're in farm country, in the off-season, I think small tank-trucks may be used for fertilizer...since you don't care about the water being potable or even that clean, maybe you could find someone who'd drive one out to your job site for the day for cheap? I think that would get you the sturdiest foundation, short of actually getting a wet-mix cement truck out there.
posted by Kadin2048 at 7:37 PM on May 24, 2007

I don't know anything about building sheds.

I do know several people who have built things involving pouring concrete, larger than sheds, without power or water on site. Generally, water is hauled out, and the mixing is either done by hand, with a gas mixer, or a generator and electric mixer. It is possible to rent a trailer with a big water tank, if you need that much water.

You might be closer to town on better roads, in which case a cement truck might be a better option.
posted by yohko at 7:51 PM on May 24, 2007

I have minimal (muddy) groundwater on the property

So you have a well, but it is muddy?
Build one of those emergency sand filters in a 55 gallon bucket, you should get fairly clean water for mixing the concrete.

In much of the US, you can bring in electricity to a pole before any structures are built. If you plan on spending the money for that soon, you might go ahead with it now.
posted by yohko at 7:57 PM on May 24, 2007

I read something about using waste latex as a water replacement for concrete, (actually it was in a mud shelter construction -- I'll see if I can find a link.)
posted by acro at 8:25 PM on May 24, 2007

If you decide to go with concrete, here are some numbers to help you know what you'll need:

12'x12'x4" slab is 48 cubic feet, or 1.78 cubic yards

concrete is about 150 pounds per cubic foot (pdf)

Water makes up about 6% of the weight of concrete.

Water weighs 8 pounds per gal (approx).

Which would be 54 gallons of water. That isn't too much, but you might want a bit more than that for washing your tools, etc.
posted by Monday at 8:26 PM on May 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Abstract

Currently, in Ontario, Canada, around 21.7% of the total hazardous waste (HZW) collected by municipalities is waste paint. ...
posted by acro at 8:33 PM on May 24, 2007

If I were you... I would just six posts in the ground and build a craptacular temporary shed with corrugated metal walls and roof (not on the site of the eventual real shed) to store the equipment and power. Then build my real shed, tear down the craptacular shed, and then build the house...

Otherwise, like everybody else said. Truck in a tanker of water and build the shed all proper like. And seconding the "just get a power pole"... it's been years and years since I've been involved with people building their own house out in the boonies, but we always had power before any real building started.
posted by zengargoyle at 8:36 PM on May 24, 2007

"... Got any thoughts?"
posted by Kickstart70 to home & garden

In the gentlest, but firmest way possible, I want to suggest that before you spend the first dime building anything on property you expect to build a residence on, that you first establish reliable access, potable water, and power. If you need to cut trees for access, and arrange regular mowing, do so, before spending any other money. If you need to get a well drilled, or water tapped up to the property, do so. If you need to get the power company to set poles, or deliver a temporary service point, do so, before you begin any construction or site preparation beyond those goals.

That's simply because failure to establish any of those pre-requisites dooms your project, financially and logistically, as a residence location. If you want to create only a storage shed on otherwise unimproved property, priorties would be different, but so long as you are trying to build a shed as a first step in a residential construction project, my best advice is to not get sidetracked on a shed.

To that end, many people follow the lead of commercial construction operations, and pull in a 40' truck trailer, or a steel storage container, to serve as a construction shed. They serve the purpose of providing lockable, weather resistant storage cheaply, and allow you, the builder to focus on more important aspects of your project.
posted by paulsc at 8:51 PM on May 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

skid-steer mounted cement mixer. Google video. You could mix your concrete where there is water, and drive to where you're building.
posted by acro at 8:58 PM on May 24, 2007

You're going to kill yourself trying to mix 1.75 yards of concrete by hand, after hauling in those 60 gallons of water. If you really want to stick with the slab idea just have it delivered mixed. The amount of concrete for "just" a 12x12 slab is enormous if you're doing it by hand. Unless you are extremely tight for money, I think your elbow grease has better use elsewhere.
posted by Rhomboid at 9:40 PM on May 24, 2007

Rent a pod
posted by bigmusic at 9:53 PM on May 24, 2007

If you're timber framing anyway, why not clay slip/straw infill walls? You could still do your stem walls and/or floor with concrete, but you wouldn't need all the concrete mortar or clean water. Clay slip/straw is one of the easiest and cheapest natural building methods, and perfectly suited to a shed. Roof it well and plaster it, it's cheap and easy and green. You don't even necessarily need a concrete floor- you could have concrete stem walls, and then gravel/moisture barrier/sand/masonry.

A book you might be interested in is Building Green by Clarke Snell and Tim Callahan. It talks about cordwood masonry and other natural building techniques.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:37 PM on May 24, 2007

Sorry for the delay coming back...

I'm pretty stuck with the cordwood, since my wife and I really like the appearance.

Based on a few peoples' posts here, I think I'm leaning toward one of two possibilities...mix cement and have access to a mixer, water, and cement at a neighbour's home and then wheelbarrow it over, or hire a cement truck. 1.75 yards, I think is less than they will deliver, so maybe I can order more and then use the excess over the driveway (as I understand it, a 'dump' location is required for whatever is left over). Right now I'm leaning toward the mixer...mostly because of expense. The property is pretty rural and shipping it in would be quite expensive...especially for a shed. When building my house, that's another story entirely. However, I do need this shed, as I won't be building the house this year and possibly not the next, but that doesn't mean I won't have other needs for storage there.
posted by Kickstart70 at 10:55 PM on May 24, 2007

I've known people to use stone foundations and lay treated lumber beams directly on the stone. Not the best way to go about it, but it could work, if you have a supply of stone on site.
posted by wierdo at 2:13 AM on May 25, 2007

Concrete and mortar requires clean water otherwise you get something that has less or even no strength. Mud=organics which are bad to have in mortar. Filter out the organics with sand as yohko said but only after you've settled out the majority of silt/mud. Do this by building a simple but large settling tank with thick mil plastic and hay bales. Pump in the muddy water and let it settle for a day, then siphon off the water on the top without disturbing the mud on the bottom.

Then pass it through a coffee can filter made by having a few layers of window screen on the bottom of the can which has been thoroughly perforated. Place about 6 inches of sand on top of the screens. Wash the sand before using to get rid of the fines. This will now be excellent water to use for making mortar or concrete.

The best way to mix your own mortar or concrete is with a borrowed or rented mixer. It will require some hard work to mix your own in a trough but if you are energetic and young and have plenty of help then it can be done.

Generally you mix 1 part water by weight with 2 parts cement. Adding more water is fine but don't add 2 parts water with 2 parts cement. For concrete, add 3/4" aggregate and for mortar add sand.
posted by JJ86 at 6:20 AM on May 25, 2007

You may more than 1.75 yds of concrete, because cordwood is heavy, and you may need to have thicker foundations under the walls (4" is fine for the rest of the floor slab). In many areas of the US, almost all construction of farm buildings are done as pole buildings, because it is cheap, fast, and avoids a lot of the problems you are starting to grapple with. Call a couple of small companies to install pole buildings -- you might be surprised at the cost relative to your cordwood shed, even with you providing the labor.

I've done what you are describing -- mixing concrete by hand, using water collected in buckets from a nearby pond, with no more technology than a wheelbarrow and a shovel. To say that it is no fun is an understatement -- it is really miserable. Unless your property is amazingly unaccessible, or you are trying to save money at any cost, I would urge you to not go that route (or if you do, try it out on a smaller concrete project first).

Wheelbarrows normally hold 6 cu feet, but that much wet concrete is really heavy. Unless you have a super smooth and flat track to push it on, you will be moving maybe 3 cu feet at a time -- that is something like 15 - 20 wheelbarrow trips, at a minimum, pushing a heavy wheelbarrow all the way from your neighbor's house. That's hard work -- there is a reason that people normally just use a gasoline-powered mixer (or an electric mixer powered by a generator) right on site. And since you would need to be hauling water anyway (also miserably heavy), just having a cement truck come and do the pour for you would probably be the smart approach. Unless you own a dump-trailer (or have a dump-body on your truck) you will likely be having the other materials (sand, gravel, etc) hauled in anyway, so if those trucks can get in, the cement truck can get in. If there is no truck access, you will have a much trickier construction project than normal.

And Paulsc is right -- you want to first get power to the site, and then start the building project. With power, you can pump water from the pond, run power tools, and have illumination in the evenings. Without it, you will be doing a lot of handsawing, or listening to a noisy generator all day every day.

Lastly, there are a lot of books out there about "build yourself a shed" and "building a house" and "alternative technology" and so on. A lot (especially the alternative technology stuff) is pretty crummy, written by earnest hippies who don't have to live with what they are advocating, but a lot more is really good. I think you need to immerse yourself in these books, which will answer all your questions here plus lots more you haven't thought to ask yet. And, if you haven't already, double check with the permit department about what is legal and what is not (or at least check with neighbors about what the permit people care about and what they don't) -- the last thing you will need is a bunch of expensive fines for violating county ordinances.
posted by Forktine at 7:02 AM on May 25, 2007

Generally you mix 1 part water by weight with 2 parts cement. Adding more water is fine but don't add 2 parts water with 2 parts cement. For concrete, add 3/4" aggregate and for mortar add sand.

This is poor advice, in every way. For small-scale concrete work, water is added in much smaller amounts than this (about 3/4 gallon to one 80lb bag of dry-mix), but only adding just enough to make the mix workable -- simply "adding more water" is not fine. Concrete requires both aggregate and sand; mortar takes only sand. The proportions of cement:sand:aggregate vary by the needed strength of the mix; there are many standard guides to this and you can see charts printed on most bags of cement.
posted by Forktine at 7:09 AM on May 25, 2007

I second renting or buying a sea container and using that as your shed. The style of building you're talking about isn't especially practical or easy to build and is likely to get damaged during subsequent construction. Also, sea containers are easy to secure and require no building permits.

Definitely, definitely establish water and power before you start. It will be almost impossible to build anything without these.
posted by electroboy at 8:07 AM on May 25, 2007

Forktine said: This is poor advice, in every way. For small-scale concrete work, water is added in much smaller amounts than this...

I see. So all of my concrete mix design classes in my undergraduate civil engineering degree were instructing me in poor advice. And the fact that I am a licensed professional engineer working on paving construction project means I have absolutely no clue. Not to mention that I pulled this out of my civil engineering handbook for a compressive strength of approximately 4500psi means that it is the worst possible advice. I thank you for setting me straight.
posted by JJ86 at 8:12 AM on May 25, 2007

It's great advice for large-scale concrete work. For small-scale, hand-mixed concrete, it simply isn't how you do it. (Aside from the sand/aggregate issue, which I think is just a typo on your part.)

I do apologize, though, for saying so in a rude manner, and in no way did I mean to denigrate your experience. My concrete experience is exclusively with on-site, low-tech, and improvised solutions, mostly in developing countries, and that is an area I am very comfortable with. For large-scale and "mission-critical" concrete work (eg street paving, earthquake resistance, etc) I defer happily to the professionals.
posted by Forktine at 8:42 AM on May 25, 2007

Well, if you're dead set on building a cordwood shed, I would think seriously about getting power onto your land somehow. If you and your wife are building the shed yourselves you can have the mortar mixing in a cement mixer while you lay cordwood. Stopping to mix in a trough or wheelbarrow is a big pain in the ass, and I can't even imagine the time spent trekking back and forth to a neighbor's to do so. Rather than spend money on trucking in cement to lay a pad, I think I'd invest in a generator and renting a mixer.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:48 AM on May 25, 2007

Some thoughts: I'm in a very similar position, and have opted to forgo the elaborate foundation on the initial shed because of the time and expense - we're going with a pole barn shed design.

Here's an account of a guy pouring a 12 x 18 foot slab using premix and a 3.5 cu foot mixer:
link

Consider the mass of the material you will require. Unless you have a source of clean, sifted sand on site and some other aggregate, you (or someone with a dump truck) will have to bring in somewhere around 3-4 tons of material. That's alot of weight even if all you are doing is shovelling it from a pile into a mixer. If you pay someone to bring in the material, you may as well just pay for a pour.

You didn't say where this is being done, but if it's anywhere near the location in your profile, you will need significant frost footings around the perimeter of the slab - down to the frost line or bedrock. This could easily double the amount of concrete you need. You could ignore the frost depth and hope you get lucky, but imagine how much it will hurt to go to the trouble of a "permanent" and solid structure only to see the walls and floor crack from frost heave in the first winter.

Another option that would still allow a cordwood construction would be a rubble trench foundation with french drains (mentioned above).
here's one account:
link

You still need to either pour a concrete beam on top or build a stone foundation. If you have a source of stone and rubble nearby or onsite this may be a very economical option (didn't work for me for logistical reasons).

Hope you find a solution!
posted by aquafiend at 10:57 AM on May 25, 2007

For me aesthetically, piers wouldn't look good with a cordword masonry building- a heavy structure on sticks. You would have to use more piers than a stick built house. -posted by Monday

Ha! My bad for not checking the link on what Kickstart70 is building. I've been amused all morning thinking about how many piers it would take.

Hey Kickstart70, the shed looks cool, and like a lot of fun to build but I think building it now may be putting the cart in front of the horse. I would advise that before taking on a project like that you should really get a few things done first. All the dirt work for one: driveway, well, septic plan, power to the pole and stake out a lot plan. Then have a concrete truck back in up your driveway and supply you with whatever you need.

And I say this as a guy who has never taken an ounce of advice about building from anyone. After wasting huge amounts of effort and energy on the first couple deathtraps I built for myself though, I came to see the wisdom of some rules followed in conventional construction. Get your dirt work done first is one of those rules. Good luck, wish I was helping you. This post makes me want to get out there and build something! Oh well, back to shuffling papers.
posted by BostonJake at 6:58 AM on May 26, 2007

Forktine, I've been building mortar set flagstone steps the last three summers and I have to say that one 80 lb. bag of mortar seems to require several gallons of water to create a workable consistency. I typically pour enough mortar into a 5 gallon bucket to fill the lower third, then add about 1/3 gallon to 1/2 to that, to get something as thick as sour cream. So I can't understand where you came up with that ratio. I know next to nothing about cement, so would appreciate some clarification.
posted by docpops at 2:16 PM on May 26, 2007

That ratio came straight off the back of a bag of dry mix (aka ready-mix, "just add water" concrete mix for small projects). That 80lb bag of dry mix, though, probably has only 5 or 10 pounds of cement in it... making the by-weight ratio exactly what JJ86 said it should be. He/she is totally right, and my comment was flat-out wrong, in that regard. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, and I sure wish there was an edit feature to go back and change what I said.
posted by Forktine at 2:32 PM on May 26, 2007