Bringing marriage back from the brink of divorce

November 6, 2006 11:14 AM

In lieu of going to a marriage therapist, what can a couple do to bring their marriage back from the brink of divorce?

We've just passed the five-year mark, we have a two year old daughter we both adore, but our marriage might best be described as a living arrangement. My wife has serious self-image problems that go past depression to anger and hatred (of herself, not me). She has for the past three years or so withdrawn herself from me, and the lack of physical affection has led to the classical sex-starved marriage. As we've tried to talk about this over time, her responses have ranged from "My sex drive is great, but I won't do anything until I get my body back" to "It's your problem, and you'll just have to deal with it". There has been no attempts at compromise, other than the rare offer of manual or oral sex ("Just because you can't do anything for me doesn't mean I can't do anything for you") with the caveat that I'm not allowed to touch her, let alone look at her. For me, this is actually worse than nothing at all.

I believe that in a healthy relationship, physical intimacy goes a long way toward smoothing out the edges caused by other incompatibilities. Without that physical aspect of our relationship, the accumulated wear and tear of just living together have broken down the rest of our relationship. Among other things, I have gotten us the book "The Sex-Starved Marriage" as recommended in another AskMe thread. I liked what it had to say, but she dismissed it ("There's nothing in here about fat people. My sex drive is fine.").

For three years, I've gone from trying to react to the first warning signs to the deepest, darkest depression I've ever known. Other than the joy I get from being with our daughter, I don't look forward to going home at night. I feel like I have a roommate that I don't really like all that much, not a wife. I've stopped wearing my wedding band, because the sight of it made me sad. I've become sullen and withdrawn (not just at home), and now *I* don't like the person I've become. A month or two ago, I've realized that I've stopped trying to actively save the relationship and focused on trying to save myself.

My wife now thinks I don't love her anymore (not true, but I can certainly see why she would think that) and that we need to work on my communication skills so that I can see why we're still a good couple. We started last night by compiling a list of ten things we love about each other and discussed it. That's where we are, and now here's my question.

She now wants to do things like compiling lists of things we don't like about each other, things we wish the other would work on, and so forth. I see that path as fraught with peril if done unguided, but I'm willing to do whatever that might bring us back from the brink. We can't afford to go to a therapist (I realize we probably both need individual therapy as well as couple sessions), but are there good online or book resources we could use that would be better than making "the top ten reasons I can't stand you" lists? Can you suggest community resources or activities that I can look into? Is the best option just taking out a line of credit and heading to the therapist?

It's been very hard to write this, to encapsulate the state of a marriage in a few paragraphs, but I think I hit the important points. I guess I'm not really asking for direct marriage advice, but rather asking for pointers toward resources that would help us.

posted by anonymous to human relations (33 comments total)

You do know that some counseling resources out there are based on a sliding income scale, right? Worth checking out.

Also you may want to see if pastoral counseling is an option. There are actually pastors out there with training in counseling -at the very least they may know of resources available to you.

I wonder if she has some abuse history in her background. Her body image problems are pretty extreme...
posted by konolia at 11:24 AM on November 6, 2006

Therapy agencies or individual therapists often have sliding scales based on income. I was able to see a therapist once every 3 weeks for just $20. Look into it - therapy was well worth it for me. I agree, I don't think I'd be into the lists thing without a therapist guiding it.
posted by IndigoRain at 11:26 AM on November 6, 2006

After seeing what Konolia wrote, I have to add: If you see a pastor for counseling, PLEASE make sure the pastor is a certified, Master's degree or higher therapist/social worker. I have a personal bias, I admit - I saw a pastor for counseling for 2 years when I was a teenager... I openly admitted that I was suicidal on several occasions, and he never once contacted my parents.
posted by IndigoRain at 11:28 AM on November 6, 2006

I found The Five Love Languages helpful and it's been around long enough that it's readily available at the public library or at used bookstores.
posted by jamaro at 11:30 AM on November 6, 2006

You need individual therapy instead of couples counseling. Do the former at the expense of the latter. Your home life, while dysfunctional, is at least stable, so there's no need for a physical separation; an emotional one suffices while you both get your ducks in a row.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 11:34 AM on November 6, 2006

Post-partum depression plus weight gain from pregnancy. Quite common, and perfectly solvable.

What do you really want people to tell you here? The problem can be worked on from both ends: she can lose weight, there are drugs that can make her feel better about herself, and there is therapy that can make her feel better about herself. But you knew that, didn't you?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say: you can afford therapy. Go yourself if she won't go. Tell the therapist that your financial situation is not the best and ask for a discounted rate. You don't have to go every day - an hour every few weeks may be sufficient to help a lot.
posted by jellicle at 11:38 AM on November 6, 2006

Therapy, therapy, therapy. Nth asking about a sliding scale. Go. It will be worth your while.
posted by orangemiles at 11:57 AM on November 6, 2006

If you can't afford to go to a therapist, you can't afford to get divorced, either- that shit costs money and lots of it!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:03 PM on November 6, 2006 [1 favorite]

My point being, of course, that life costs money, and therapy is an investment worth making.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:04 PM on November 6, 2006 [1 favorite]

Therapy is a damn sight cheaper than divorce.
posted by Hogshead at 12:09 PM on November 6, 2006

To help with a "contact a pastor" comment:

Speaking as a pastor, IndigoRain has it right. One of the most common misconceptions of pastors (other than the "Law and Order" show misconception, that we hang out in the sanctuary all day in our robes lighting candles) is that we are all trained therapists. Unfortunately, some clergy believe this stereotype when they (we) should know better.

My suggestion, if you are interested, would be for you to either use the yellow pages or a local church referral to find what is called a pastoral counseling center, where there are clergy working there who are trained and licensed and it is all they do.

Often their work is actually covered by insurance, and they don't bring doctrine/dogma into the conversation unless you do.

I hope it works out for you. Good luck.
posted by 4ster at 12:33 PM on November 6, 2006

Gottman. Really. Start with the cheap DVD of his lecture - it's like 30 bucks or something and takes 1/2 an hour to watch.

If you don't believe me, listen to him on This American Life.

Also, your wife might want to check a recent metafilter post about fat, self-esteem, and sex.

I'm really sorry you're going through this. I know having a kid makes it a thousand times more complicated.
posted by serazin at 12:49 PM on November 6, 2006

Nth for therapy. Also think your wife needs to be evaluated for post partum depression. I've known people who had it linger for years. How is your wife sleeping? My sister, post partum, has been constantly exhausted, unable to re-establish normal sleep patterns, and this has affected her both emotionally and physically. A prescription for amitriptyline has halped her immensely.
posted by Sara Anne at 12:55 PM on November 6, 2006

I'll also suggest that you look for sliding scale therapists. You might try looking for your local version of "Family and Children's Services", which is not the same as social services. A surprising number of places have private agencies called this, and they all seem to work about the same and on sliding scales.

I'm not generally a fan of self-help books, mostly because they can be facile and, without the commitment of an outside person, the advice is easy to ignore. However, I do like Michele Weiner Davis, whose book Divorce Busting is one I've read. (I'm a therapist, not married.) She's got some other books on avoiding divorce as well.

Couples therapy basically boils down to two questions (or a question and an admonition):

1) Do you want to save this relationship? (Obviously this is an open question best answered with a bit of soul-searching and not with any kind of reflex as to what you think you should answer.

2) Change enough! If you want to stick with it, both people have to make the changes that are necessary, and they need to use the desire to stick with it as the desire to make the changes (since the changes are probably not changes either wants to make, or they wouldn't be necessary as changes). But, as hokey as the admonition seems, it really is key that change isn't sufficient, it has to be sufficient change. It's too easy to simply state "I did change, I tried," and then to feel at least self-justified. But the test of whether or not there has been enough change is whether or not things are really getting better. Anything else doesn't make sense as a benchmark.

Best of luck. You can find my email in my profile if you have any questions about anything I wrote.
posted by OmieWise at 1:03 PM on November 6, 2006

I agree with checking with therapists about sliding rates, and think that's the most important thing you should do (other than, of course, actually going to therapy once you find someone you can afford, which also takes courage).

One thing that stands out in your post, though, is that the only issue you mention is your sex life, and the specifics you give make it seem like that's the only problem you're focusing on when you talk to your wife. Is it the only problem that exists? I don't know that you need a "10 Things I Hate About You" list, but it might be good to get a "Problems that are affecting me in this relationship" list from her to make sure you're not focusing on a symptom rather than the cause, and yet also to make sure that she understands how serious the symptom is.

That is: She may not be into sex due to X, Y, and Z other issues. If you're focusing on the sex, she may be getting frustrated because she really needs to focus on X, Y, and Z. In the meantime, you may see the lack of sex as the major problem, and so you're getting increasingly frustrated because she's dismissing your concerns -- because to her, they're not the major problem -- and so the more you talk about all this, the more you may just be talking past each other.
posted by occhiblu at 1:09 PM on November 6, 2006 [1 favorite]

Since you asked about books, I'll mention that I've heard very good things about Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil. I don't own it, and I can't personally recommend it; but I have friends who do personally recommend it, and your situation seems to resemble the circumstances for which it was intended.
posted by cribcage at 1:10 PM on November 6, 2006 [1 favorite]

One other option for sliding-fee therapists/counselors--if any local universities have schools of social work or clinical psychology, often their graduate students run a counseling center with sliding/cheap rates.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 1:48 PM on November 6, 2006

Everyone who says you need to find a way to get therapy is spot on. There are numerous options, and this should be a priority, because without it, your marriage is unlikely to improve.

But until then, I think you need to put this to your wife the same way you've explained it to us. Show her the post you wrote to this thread if you want to. But tell her, somehow, "I love you, and I want to stay married to you, but being forbidden to touch you is hurting me and making me depressed in a way that I can't continue to ignore. This may be my problem, but I need your help to solve it, and I hope that you love me enough to help me figure out how to be happy."

If you don't already, start telling her every day how beautiful she is (outside of a sexual context). Tell her how you love the way she looks in that dress, or how her eyes sparkle when she laughs. If she says, "I'm not beautiful" or anything of the sort, just ignore it, but keep telling her each day how attractive you find her, with no expectation of any response on her part.

Additionally, you may want to ask her if there's anything you can do to make her life easier in terms of giving her more time to do what she wants to do to improve herself. Can you take on extra childcare responsibilities so that she has time to go to the gym? Take walks as a family? Cook for her so that she has tasty, healthy meals to eat? You need to be delicate about this so that you don't insinuate that you think she's fat, but there may be concrete things you can do to relieve whatever may be standing in the way of her plans to lose weight and feel better about herself.

It's not a bad idea to ask your wife what she thinks will help your marriage. I wouldn't put it in the form of a Top 10 list, but have a conversation with her. This isn't about sex; it's about intimacy, and you need to be able to talk about these things. That's what therapy does, but you may be able to do some of the work on your own through honest conversations.
posted by decathecting at 2:54 PM on November 6, 2006

There are a couple of ways to look at the answers you're getting, anonymous.

One of them is: "Dammit! I told you all that We. Can't. Afford. Therapy." Go ahead, slam your fist on the computer desk. Throw something across the room. Kick the dog. We'll wait.

Another way would be to point out that you are so confused that not only can't you see the forest for the leaves, but you don't even know what a tree is.

The biggest problem that you have, Mr Anonymous, is you. In particular, you are completely without a clue. I'm going to point out a few of these problems for you.

I believe that in a healthy relationship, physical intimacy goes a long way toward smoothing out the edges caused by other incompatibilities.

You couldn't be more wrong. The fact that you possess the temerity to put this in writing suggests to me that you should not be allowed outside without a leash, never mind to be allowed to relate to other human beings without professional help.

My wife now thinks I don't love her anymore (not true, but I can certainly see why she would think that)

Not only do you claim to know what your wife thinks, but you're qualified to pass judgment on how wrong she is? Do you tell her so, too?

Let me tell you something, Mr Anonymous: if you really possessed the magical powers of 1) telepathy and 2) being able to determine the truth of any statement immediately, you would never have any interpersonal problems at all.

I see that path as fraught with peril if done unguided, but I'm willing to do whatever that might bring us back from the brink.

Why? Is it because you "feel like you have a roommate that you don't really like all that much?" Or maybe it's because you really didn't mean it when you said "I've stopped trying to actively save the relationship and focused on trying to save myself?"

Again, why do you say that you're willing to do whatever? Do you know? I'm pretty sure you don't, and I'm guessing that you probably think you do and are wrong about it.

To sum up, anonymous, and I'm going to be brutally honest:

1) You don't have any idea where you are.
2) You have no clue where you are headed.
3) You pretty clearly don't even know where you *want* to be headed.

A book or a website is not going to be useful to you. You are going to require some expert guidance and years of introspective, soul-searching work if you want to dig your way out of this one. It's going to cost you a lot of money, but boy howdy, that's going to look cheap when you look at how much emotional pain you're going to go through.

And that's if you do it right, which is to say, find a professional and pay them money to help you. If you keep blundering around in the dark, it's like writing an uncovered call in the stock market - the amount of potential loss is really unlimited.

I've been pretty rough here. Let me tell you why, and it'll soften the blow a bit, I hope: it's because your misconceptions and wrong-headedness are so common in your situation that they're nearly ubiquitous. It's so easy for those of us in helping professions - who've seen your situation hundreds of times before - to say, 'OK, looks like a standard Marriage Situation 1A.'

After a professional does that, he or she gives you both some homework to do, and after a few months or years of this, you can work your ways to understanding. You'll know where you are, how you got there, where you want to be, and what your ultimate goals are in life. You'll stop laughing at certain kinds of TV sitcoms, too.

I wish you luck and a speedy journey.
posted by ikkyu2 at 2:56 PM on November 6, 2006

I'm no expert in relationships but my $.02 says the list idea your wife gave is a boobytrap meant to reinforce her negative self-image using you as the patsy to deliver it. Just wanted to point that out in case you missed it. I gotta agree, what you need is a pro to mediate this.
posted by scalefree at 3:29 PM on November 6, 2006

You couldn't be more wrong. The fact that you possess the temerity to put this in writing suggests to me that you should not be allowed outside without a leash, never mind to be allowed to relate to other human beings without professional help.

Wow, what a truly crap answer ikkyu2. OK to disagree with what the guy believes but you're passing judgements and making assumptions that you really have no right to.

Not only do you claim to know what your wife thinks, but you're qualified to pass judgment on how wrong she is?

Ever think that maybe the poster's wife actually told him that she thinks he doesn't love her anymore? That's how I read it. And yes, he's entitled to think she's wrong if that what's she telling him. He'd be the one to know wouldn't he?
posted by gfrobe at 3:46 PM on November 6, 2006

i agree, ikkyu 2's answer takes the crap biscuit.
posted by londongeezer at 3:56 PM on November 6, 2006

Overly simplistic here, but everyone upthread has covered good stuff. Why don't you start doing some physical activities together? The togetherness time might be good for you both and the physical activity could help her lose the weight that is bothering her. Or at least provide some motivation for further exercise. It doesn't have to be anything major, could even just be a walk after dinner with your daughter. Good luck.
posted by ml98tu at 4:29 PM on November 6, 2006

Also, do you have an Employee Assistance Program at your workplace? If so, check that out. It's not a joint thing, but could help you in the short term at least.
posted by ml98tu at 4:40 PM on November 6, 2006

What the hell, ikkyu2?

Anon could have walked. He could have initiated an affair with the nearest willing person. He could have started slinking off for paid sex. He hasn't. He is, as far as I can tell, trying to salvage his marriage in good faith. You should apologize for that answer, and I hope the OP ignores it.

One thing I don't believe I saw in the post was whether or not Mrs. Anon is working, or at home full time with a small child. If she's at home all day, well-- you should have some idea of how draining, both emotionally and physically, that is. As well as therapy, it seems to me that if your wife has a chance to expand her world a bit-- to get out on a regular basis, either to the gym or just to walk or even just to go to visit her friends or to a movie, and so on, might help a little. I spent 3.5 years at home with my son, who I loved/love dearly, and I was still stir crazy by the time I went back to the adult world and picked up a job (and a space in a decent daycare became available). One thing I would certainly not do is participate in an exercise designed only to make both of you angry, which is what making a list of "improvements needed" would most likely be. It sounds like she might have a lot of frustration that she needs to communicate, and she's taking it out on herself, on her body, and on you. The challenge it to get that frustration communicated in a postive way.

Also, I second the advice to tell her every day that you think she looks beautiful. Try to be specific-- her eyes are lovely, or her skin, or her hair catches the light just so, the colour she's wearing suits her. And don't engage when she defensively starts trying to argue with you, which she most likely will. If she's like me, and put on sixty unmovable pounds when she was pregnant, she may well be mourning for the body she lost, and feeling like she's stranded in a strange new fleshy body, which she hates because by the standards of this society she's become ugly.
posted by jokeefe at 5:16 PM on November 6, 2006

ikkyu2: I'm not sure what to make of that really long, really mean, really weird answer, because I like you and generally I think you give good advice. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just having a terrible day. In particular, this statement:

I believe that in a healthy relationship, physical intimacy goes a long way toward smoothing out the edges caused by other incompatibilities.

hardly seems to deserve all that wrath. Do you disagree that having a healthy sex life is important in a romantic relationship? Because I feel like that's what the guy is saying, and I don't think that makes him worse than Hitler.

As far as actual advice goes, I'm going to get on the "see a professional" train. I think that this is something that'll be pretty much impossible to solve without a neutral third party, and you can find an affordable professional if you look hard enough. In any case, it'll be cheaper than a divorce!
posted by myeviltwin at 5:18 PM on November 6, 2006

You both are being pretty awful towards one another. If each of you can't see past the frustration you're dealing with individually, to the pain you are causing each other, and want that to stop, you've got no chance, long term. Your communications skills haven't allowed you to work through the problem(s) you have on your own, to date, and it's unrealistic to suppose that reading some books on your own [or together], and/or applying advice from Internet forums, is going to get you over what sound like deal breaking issues.

Yet, you don't mention any of the "fatal" problems that take down most marriages, these being infidelity, financial problems (except for the "...We can't afford to go to a therapist..." remark, which is followed later by "...Is the best option just taking out a line of credit and heading to the therapist? ..." indicating that if you both thought it was effective, you'd be able to make financial arrangements), lack of commitment to the marriage, addiction, abuse, and changing individual priorities. So, at this point, your chances for the long term success of the marriage are not zero, either. Yet you've probably got a situation that is going to go to divorce, if you don't get effective help to steer your marriage off the rocks, immediately.

Unfortunately, according to an April 19, 2005 article in The New York Times it's an open question how effective marriage counseling actually is. According to the author of the article, Susan Gilbert, a great deal depends on the training of the therapist, and the techniques they use, and she covers many of the methods and techniques felt to be most effective in modern family therapy practice. A response to the 2005 NYT article I just linked by David Bergmann of the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy says

"In fact, only marriage and family therapists among the mental health professions are required to obtain coursework and clinical experience in couples and family therapy. Family therapists comprise about 17% of the core mental health workforce, which leaves significant numbers of clinicians who may lack the requisite training, but are currently providing therapy to couples."

So, if you do decide on therapy, it's vital to seek out therapists with the requiste training to be effective. If you find a competent counselor, and an effective program of short term therapy (10 sessions or so, over perhaps 4 to 6 months), you might experience significant improvement.

"... In reality, research shows that marital/couples therapy is as effective or more so than other types of behavioral and medical interventions. When using standard research tools to determine effectiveness ("effect size"), couples therapy demonstrates results similar to or better than other health care interventions. Understanding that higher effect sizes are better, couples therapy studies show an average effect size of .84, compared to similar or lower outcomes for other mental health interventions: psychotherapy generally (.60), psychotherapy with children (.71), or psychotherapy for the treatment of depression (.72). The research is equally compelling when comparing couples therapy to medical interventions: AZT for AIDS mortality (.47), bypass surgery for the treatment of angina (.80), or medications for the treatment of depression (.55). ..."

Given those outcome probabilities, I'd do the kind of search for a therapist the above linked article suggests, and then I'd spend the money to try a short course of work with them, to see what is possible. You each may need pharmacological help in addition to counseling, but if you do get some real improvement in the short run, you may both be encouraged to do the things you need to do to improve your lives still further.

And otherwise, from what you say, your next steps are into the bitter, lonely darkness of divorce, and from my personal experience, what money you'd save on therapy with a do-it-yourself approach, you'll more than spend on legal time when it fails, trying to bash each other for unfulfilled expectations, in trying to come to a property settlement and child care agreement.
posted by paulsc at 5:48 PM on November 6, 2006

Care more about your spouse than you do about yourself, no matter what gets thrown at you. Do this for a year. If there is love to be found in the relationship you will be rewarded with warmth and love, eventually.
posted by caddis at 6:10 PM on November 6, 2006

I just thought of something else, Anon.

If she is not working outside the home, see if she might be interested in a mother's morning out or a MOPS (Mothers of Preschoolers) group. Having other new(ish) moms to look forward to being with might help.

Just a thought, but still agreeing with the suggestions for therapy.
posted by 4ster at 6:55 PM on November 6, 2006

I hope that ikkyu2 isn't really in a "helping profession" since that response was neither helpful nor professional (and ironically is full of "telepathy")...

It sounds like there has been a switch in that your wife is now motivated to work on your relationship, and you should capitalize on this momentum. I would listen to your instinct that trying to address serious relationship issues without some guidance from a trained, neutral party has the potential go astray, and I would seriously try to find some affordable counseling (incorporating the more specific advice of others above).

Good luck.
posted by waterfall at 7:09 PM on November 6, 2006

unfortunately for anon, ikkyu2 is probably right.
posted by caddis at 8:07 PM on November 6, 2006

if you really are interesting trying to save things, for the love of all that is incredibly obvious, WEAR THAT RING. She knows you're not wearing it, and your stated reason is utterly insufficient. Not wearing the ring is a signal to yourself, to her, and to the world that you are available. If you don't see this, or feel put out by my comments on the topic, I would very much suggest finding a guide to whatever is about to transpire in your relationship. Good luck to all three of you.
posted by mwhybark at 8:48 PM on November 6, 2006

My wife now thinks I don't love her anymore (not true, but I can certainly see why she would think that) -OP

Not only do you claim to know what your wife thinks, but you're qualified to pass judgment on how wrong she is? Do you tell her so, too? -Ikkyu2

He probably thinks that she thinks that he doesn't love her any more because she has told him that. I imagine he is qualified to make a pretty accurate statement as to the truth of that statement (his own feelings, mind you). His saying "I can certainly see why she would think that" is a techinique that is designed for the validation of your partner's feelings, and was a hopeful sign.

I have some personal experience in this area. Gottman has a more expensive DVD that encapsulates his workshop that may be of assistance. Let me know if you find a solution to watch the kid while going to therapy--never could get that one nailed, myself.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 10:26 PM on November 6, 2006