Do you know of any very religious and admirable person who had killed themselves ?
July 27, 2006 1:14 PM Subscribe
Do you know of any very religious and admirable person who had killed themselves , for whatever reason?
Anybody famous and admirable and very religious killed themselves?
For example ---- and it's a bad example because he is not famour nor admirable --- Irv Rubin , the very religious Jew of Jewish Defense League supposedly commited suicide in prison. Although his supporters claim he was murdered.
Anybody famous and admirable and very religious killed themselves?
For example ---- and it's a bad example because he is not famour nor admirable --- Irv Rubin , the very religious Jew of Jewish Defense League supposedly commited suicide in prison. Although his supporters claim he was murdered.
This post was deleted for the following reason: chatfilter.
Jack Kerouac was a very religious Catholic. He drank himself to death because it "didn't really count" as suicide. This is according to his wife in some documentary that I can't remember the name of.
Does he pass the admirable test? YMMV.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:20 PM on July 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
Does he pass the admirable test? YMMV.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:20 PM on July 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
Jesus
posted by riotgrrl69 at 1:21 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by riotgrrl69 at 1:21 PM on July 27, 2006
5, 10 years ago, one of the chaplains of Congress killed himself after retirement. Having trouble finding more info- can't remember enough to Google.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:22 PM on July 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:22 PM on July 27, 2006 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I forgot to say thank you very much for reading and even responding.
By the way, what religion did Socrates believe in?
Please enlighten
Because I know he was known for asking very difficult questions ---- a trait never found in very religious people .
So I am surprised he is known as VERY religious.
posted by studentguru at 1:23 PM on July 27, 2006
By the way, what religion did Socrates believe in?
Please enlighten
Because I know he was known for asking very difficult questions ---- a trait never found in very religious people .
So I am surprised he is known as VERY religious.
posted by studentguru at 1:23 PM on July 27, 2006
I would say Iris Chang. Although she wasn't particularly religious, she was certainly admirable and was considered a hero by the Nanjing community.
Wikipedia has a scanty list: Religious Peope Who Committed Suicide
posted by mattbucher at 1:25 PM on July 27, 2006
Wikipedia has a scanty list: Religious Peope Who Committed Suicide
posted by mattbucher at 1:25 PM on July 27, 2006
Socrates didn't technically kill himself, the hemlock was his sentence from the Athenian court for his supposed corruption of their youth (the charge brought by his accusers). Sure, he refused to escape from prison, and could have made them force-feed him the hemlock, but that's just not how the man rolled.
Jesus is also technically not suicide, since he was executed, but once again, he could have gotten himself out of it and refused to.
Depends on your definition of "killed themselves". You may want to be more specific?
posted by cyrusdogstar at 1:26 PM on July 27, 2006
Jesus is also technically not suicide, since he was executed, but once again, he could have gotten himself out of it and refused to.
Depends on your definition of "killed themselves". You may want to be more specific?
posted by cyrusdogstar at 1:26 PM on July 27, 2006
Hmmm. All three of these are questionable: Socrates was basically coerced, Kerouac was being Jesuitical about the definition of suicide, and if you believe that Jesus died as a man not a god who was suppressing his powers, there was nothing he could do to escape his execution. Also crucifixion's a terrible way to kill yourself: you can never get the last nail in.
Were any of the monks who self-immolated during the Vietnam war famous? Does starving to death during a hunger strike like Bobby Sands count as a suicide, since death is not necessarily the goal of a hunger strike?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:26 PM on July 27, 2006
Were any of the monks who self-immolated during the Vietnam war famous? Does starving to death during a hunger strike like Bobby Sands count as a suicide, since death is not necessarily the goal of a hunger strike?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:26 PM on July 27, 2006
Uh, so you never read St. Thomas Aquinas then? Or CS Lewis? Or Augustine? Because they all asked very tough questions.
I do not know if Socrates would be considered religious in the modern sense, he did seem to indicate he believed in the gods (or was at least skeptical of them). I don't think his death was a suicide, though he might suredly have avoided it -- which I guess could be the definition of suicide.
posted by geoff. at 1:27 PM on July 27, 2006
I do not know if Socrates would be considered religious in the modern sense, he did seem to indicate he believed in the gods (or was at least skeptical of them). I don't think his death was a suicide, though he might suredly have avoided it -- which I guess could be the definition of suicide.
posted by geoff. at 1:27 PM on July 27, 2006
Oh, and Socrates was in fact very religious, but it's not like the ancient Greeks had organized religion as we know it today, so I'm not sure it counts. He believed "God" told him to perform his famous dialogues/examinations of others, and in fact much of Plato's Apology has Socrates espousing this fact to the court.
But one of the accusations, along with corrupting the youth, was that he "replaced the gods with his own", so I'm sure an argument can be made that he was an outcast religiously, similar to anyone else today claiming that God speaks directly to them and tells them to do X.
posted by cyrusdogstar at 1:28 PM on July 27, 2006
But one of the accusations, along with corrupting the youth, was that he "replaced the gods with his own", so I'm sure an argument can be made that he was an outcast religiously, similar to anyone else today claiming that God speaks directly to them and tells them to do X.
posted by cyrusdogstar at 1:28 PM on July 27, 2006
Thich Quang Duc in June, 1963 (as the question was: very religious, not very famous).
posted by Rash at 1:29 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by Rash at 1:29 PM on July 27, 2006
Best answer: Vincent Van Gogh. His suicide cannot be disputed and he was fervently religious his entire life, working at times as a missionary and training to be a preacher.
posted by fire&wings at 1:29 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by fire&wings at 1:29 PM on July 27, 2006
Because I know he was known for asking very difficult questions ---- a trait never found in very religious people .
Dude, Kierkegaard.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:29 PM on July 27, 2006
Dude, Kierkegaard.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:29 PM on July 27, 2006
King Saul killed himself. Religious or admirable is up for debate.
posted by needs more cowbell at 1:30 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by needs more cowbell at 1:30 PM on July 27, 2006
Many Christians seem to regard Creation as one big Rube Goldberg machine to facilitate the death of Christ and the redemption of mankind. They regard His death as an inevitable and essential part of existence. So from that perspective it might be suicide.
posted by riotgrrl69 at 1:33 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by riotgrrl69 at 1:33 PM on July 27, 2006
Except from that perspective his bodily resurrection is also inevitable. Not sure it still counts as suicide in that case.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:34 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:34 PM on July 27, 2006
I'll play:
Because I know he was known for asking very difficult questions ---- a trait never found in very religious people.
Dude, Emerson
posted by found missing at 1:35 PM on July 27, 2006
Because I know he was known for asking very difficult questions ---- a trait never found in very religious people.
Dude, Emerson
posted by found missing at 1:35 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster:
THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN for all the reading and responding.
My definition of committing suicide would not have applied to either Jesus or Socrates, since they used their suicide as a statement of some kind.
My definition of suicide would include killing the self for no longer wanting to live with regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life. And suicide was the path of least resistence, the easy way out.
posted by studentguru at 1:38 PM on July 27, 2006
THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN for all the reading and responding.
My definition of committing suicide would not have applied to either Jesus or Socrates, since they used their suicide as a statement of some kind.
My definition of suicide would include killing the self for no longer wanting to live with regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life. And suicide was the path of least resistence, the easy way out.
posted by studentguru at 1:38 PM on July 27, 2006
I'm trying to remember the guys name - but there was a famous jewish philosopher who survived the holocaust, wrote inspiring works about overcoming adversity and the will to live, and then jumped out of a window. Ring any bells?
posted by muddylemon at 1:39 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by muddylemon at 1:39 PM on July 27, 2006
Suicide by cop, but Vernon Wayne Howell, and 76 others on April 19, 1993.
James Warren Jones, and 914 others, on November 18, 1978.
Organized religion often fosters martyrdom and apocalyptic suicide. Discuss.
posted by paulsc at 1:39 PM on July 27, 2006
James Warren Jones, and 914 others, on November 18, 1978.
Organized religion often fosters martyrdom and apocalyptic suicide. Discuss.
posted by paulsc at 1:39 PM on July 27, 2006
Muddylemon, you are thinking of Primo Levi, but he was not religious (and his family still thinks it was an accident, but the coroner said suicide indeed).
posted by mattbucher at 1:41 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by mattbucher at 1:41 PM on July 27, 2006
Norman Morrison, the Quaker who burnt himself to death outside the Pentagon to protest the Vietnam War?
posted by orthogonality at 1:44 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by orthogonality at 1:44 PM on July 27, 2006
My definition of suicide would include killing the self for no longer wanting to live with regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life. And suicide was the path of least resistence, the easy way out.
Seems a little narrow. What's your definition of admirable? Is it possible for a person to be admirable and have the kind of character that the above definition of suicide implies?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:47 PM on July 27, 2006
Seems a little narrow. What's your definition of admirable? Is it possible for a person to be admirable and have the kind of character that the above definition of suicide implies?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:47 PM on July 27, 2006
muddylemon, are you remembering a sub-plot of Woody Allen's movie Crimes and Misdemeanors, where the philosopher Louis Levy is only seen in film clips of the documentary Woody Allen has been working on for 20 years? When Levy takes his own life, Allen's documentary project is completely derailed, since his films POV was Levy maintaining a view of logical positivism even through the Holocaust. It's a Candide parody.
But I don't think Louis Levy was an actual philosopher, or a real person.
posted by paulsc at 1:50 PM on July 27, 2006
But I don't think Louis Levy was an actual philosopher, or a real person.
posted by paulsc at 1:50 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster: Looks like Vincent van Gogh is the kind of example I am looking for ---- very religious and famous and may be even admirable (for his talents ; although I do not know anything about his character and niceties as a human being)
Thank you very much once again.
Again, I would like to emphasize that suicide as a way of making political statements is NOT what I am looking for.
And perhaps somebody wants to start a new thread elsewhere debating my earlier statement "Because I know he was known for asking very difficult questions ---- a trait never found in very religious people ."
I only want to find answers to my original question here in this post.
Thank you very much :)
posted by studentguru at 1:55 PM on July 27, 2006
Thank you very much once again.
Again, I would like to emphasize that suicide as a way of making political statements is NOT what I am looking for.
And perhaps somebody wants to start a new thread elsewhere debating my earlier statement "Because I know he was known for asking very difficult questions ---- a trait never found in very religious people ."
I only want to find answers to my original question here in this post.
Thank you very much :)
posted by studentguru at 1:55 PM on July 27, 2006
From what you've laid out, this probably wouldn't count, but what about people whose religious beliefs led them to reject treatments that could've saved their lives? The example I'm thinking of is Bob Marley, but I feel sure there are others. (And, of course, I'm not sure he'd fit into your definitions of 'very religious' or 'admirable,' either.)
And, speaking of suicide-by-cop, there's also M.O.V.E. (again, I'm not sure they'd fit into your qualifications).
posted by box at 2:10 PM on July 27, 2006
And, speaking of suicide-by-cop, there's also M.O.V.E. (again, I'm not sure they'd fit into your qualifications).
posted by box at 2:10 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster:
My definition of suicide would include killing the self for no longer wanting to live with regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life. And suicide was the path of least resistence, the easy way out.
Seems a little narrow. What's your definition of admirable? Is it possible for a person to be admirable and have the kind of character that the above definition of suicide implies?
My defintion of "Admirable" , in this current post would be what the mainstream idea of what "admirable" means .
And that could mean anybody who is neither infamous nor notorius. It could mean somebody with talents in certain skills. No inference of great traits such as honesty and integrity and reliability are made here.
So it is very possible for a person to be admirable (in the mainstream sense) and have the kind of character that the above definition of suicide implies.
posted by studentguru at 2:11 PM on July 27, 2006
My definition of suicide would include killing the self for no longer wanting to live with regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life. And suicide was the path of least resistence, the easy way out.
Seems a little narrow. What's your definition of admirable? Is it possible for a person to be admirable and have the kind of character that the above definition of suicide implies?
My defintion of "Admirable" , in this current post would be what the mainstream idea of what "admirable" means .
And that could mean anybody who is neither infamous nor notorius. It could mean somebody with talents in certain skills. No inference of great traits such as honesty and integrity and reliability are made here.
So it is very possible for a person to be admirable (in the mainstream sense) and have the kind of character that the above definition of suicide implies.
posted by studentguru at 2:11 PM on July 27, 2006
Gay Mormons who have committed suicide
Dunno if they're admirable.
posted by thirteenkiller at 2:12 PM on July 27, 2006
Dunno if they're admirable.
posted by thirteenkiller at 2:12 PM on July 27, 2006
This is a weird question. You keep narrowing down your criteria and nobody seems to understand what you're really going for. What does religion have to do with this?
posted by thirteenkiller at 2:18 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by thirteenkiller at 2:18 PM on July 27, 2006
You mention not wanting examples of "making a statement" so I will just add a note about Rash's answer of Thich Quang Duc.
In Chinese Buddhism, self immolation, first a thumb or finger, then maybe a hand, and finally fully immolating yourself was done as a part of a monk's journey. No political statement, just a desire to move along the path of enlightenment.
Duc made a statement with his immolation but the way he did it has a long, positive, history in Buddhism.
posted by karmaville at 2:19 PM on July 27, 2006
In Chinese Buddhism, self immolation, first a thumb or finger, then maybe a hand, and finally fully immolating yourself was done as a part of a monk's journey. No political statement, just a desire to move along the path of enlightenment.
Duc made a statement with his immolation but the way he did it has a long, positive, history in Buddhism.
posted by karmaville at 2:19 PM on July 27, 2006
Re-reading my post I forgot to say it was a choice of some monks, certainly not all, nor even many.
posted by karmaville at 2:20 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by karmaville at 2:20 PM on July 27, 2006
self immolation == enlightenment
posted by found missing at 2:22 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by found missing at 2:22 PM on July 27, 2006
She may not be as famous as you would like, but Minnie Vautrion somes close to fitting the bill. She was a missionary to China. A couple months after witnessing the Rape of Nanking, she committed suicide because she was so troubled by what she saw.
And perhaps somebody wants to start a new thread elsewhere debating my earlier statement "Because I know he was known for asking very difficult questions ---- a trait never found in very religious people ."
Then don't post inflammatory statements like that on your own thread. You whine about slight derails that you yourself caused. Very annoying.
posted by Falconetti at 2:23 PM on July 27, 2006
And perhaps somebody wants to start a new thread elsewhere debating my earlier statement "Because I know he was known for asking very difficult questions ---- a trait never found in very religious people ."
Then don't post inflammatory statements like that on your own thread. You whine about slight derails that you yourself caused. Very annoying.
posted by Falconetti at 2:23 PM on July 27, 2006
studentguru writes "My definition of suicide would include killing the self for no longer wanting to live with regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life. And suicide was the path of least resistence, the easy way out."
You should note that this is a very old-fashioned conception of suicide. Most experts today would consider the vast majority of suicides to be the result of clinical depression.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:26 PM on July 27, 2006
You should note that this is a very old-fashioned conception of suicide. Most experts today would consider the vast majority of suicides to be the result of clinical depression.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:26 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster:
From what you've laid out, this probably wouldn't count, but what about people whose religious beliefs led them to reject treatments that could've saved their lives?
They may be admirable for wanting to die for their beliefs.
But I must say I find very religious people very unquestioning , very naive and very insecure people.
So it would be very difficult for me to find them admirable.
posted by studentguru at 2:33 PM on July 27, 2006
From what you've laid out, this probably wouldn't count, but what about people whose religious beliefs led them to reject treatments that could've saved their lives?
They may be admirable for wanting to die for their beliefs.
But I must say I find very religious people very unquestioning , very naive and very insecure people.
So it would be very difficult for me to find them admirable.
posted by studentguru at 2:33 PM on July 27, 2006
Just thought of another: sax player Albert Ayler.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 2:33 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 2:33 PM on July 27, 2006
Abbie Hoffman committed suicide after a life-long struggle with bipolar disorder. He wasn't "religious" to any meaningful degree, but he was notorious and some thought he was "admirable".
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 2:37 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 2:37 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster:
This is a weird question. You keep narrowing down your criteria and nobody seems to understand what you're really going for. What does religion have to do with this?
This has been a great learning experience for me so far :)
Thank you very much for reading and responding.
My original post did not define admirable (either in the mainstream sense or in a sense I will use ).
It also did not define my idea of suicide nor my idea of religion.
Because I did not think of other people's need for definition. My bad.
Nontheless, I am very happy with all the responses so far. Because they all teach me something I did not know before.
Religion is critical to my question here because I am inclined to believe religion cannot save anybody from themselves.
And I am looking for great examples of very religious people who killed themselves out of guilt or regrets or thoughts of wrong choices made.
The more I write, the more I reveal my bias and my motive :)
posted by studentguru at 2:45 PM on July 27, 2006
This is a weird question. You keep narrowing down your criteria and nobody seems to understand what you're really going for. What does religion have to do with this?
This has been a great learning experience for me so far :)
Thank you very much for reading and responding.
My original post did not define admirable (either in the mainstream sense or in a sense I will use ).
It also did not define my idea of suicide nor my idea of religion.
Because I did not think of other people's need for definition. My bad.
Nontheless, I am very happy with all the responses so far. Because they all teach me something I did not know before.
Religion is critical to my question here because I am inclined to believe religion cannot save anybody from themselves.
And I am looking for great examples of very religious people who killed themselves out of guilt or regrets or thoughts of wrong choices made.
The more I write, the more I reveal my bias and my motive :)
posted by studentguru at 2:45 PM on July 27, 2006
How about Cleopatra? Forget about "very religious", she was a frickin' goddess.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:50 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by mr_roboto at 2:50 PM on July 27, 2006
Well, OK studentguru. Then I am going to throw in the name of singer Phil Ochs, the most deeply religious man I ever personally met, whose religion was Humanism, and who hanged himself regretting that he couldn't make the rest of us see how important it is to be decent to one another.
posted by paulsc at 2:53 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by paulsc at 2:53 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster: My definition of suicide would include killing the self for no longer wanting to live with regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life. And suicide was the path of least resistence, the easy way out.
You should note that this is a very old-fashioned conception of suicide. Most experts today would consider the vast majority of suicides to be the result of clinical depression.
In a sense I am an expert on suicide. Because I overcame a very deep depression 20 years ago.
I was so depressed I cut my left wrist when I was a teenager . And I have the scar to show for that attempted suicide.
All I want to say right now is that deep depression is one of the best things that I have ever gone through.
Because from that experience I found an inner strength I never thought I had . I found a will to live and to learn to live life my way, on my own terms.
And an inner strength to question the mainstream idea of what it means to be "admirable" , "courageous" , "success" .
So generally I don't have a lot of respects for most experts, particularly with regard to what it means to be a human being .
posted by studentguru at 3:02 PM on July 27, 2006
You should note that this is a very old-fashioned conception of suicide. Most experts today would consider the vast majority of suicides to be the result of clinical depression.
In a sense I am an expert on suicide. Because I overcame a very deep depression 20 years ago.
I was so depressed I cut my left wrist when I was a teenager . And I have the scar to show for that attempted suicide.
All I want to say right now is that deep depression is one of the best things that I have ever gone through.
Because from that experience I found an inner strength I never thought I had . I found a will to live and to learn to live life my way, on my own terms.
And an inner strength to question the mainstream idea of what it means to be "admirable" , "courageous" , "success" .
So generally I don't have a lot of respects for most experts, particularly with regard to what it means to be a human being .
posted by studentguru at 3:02 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster:
How about Cleopatra? Forget about "very religious", she was a frickin' goddess.
I have also heard Cleopatra was a great one night stand :)
Imagine having sex with a goddess :)
posted by studentguru at 3:07 PM on July 27, 2006
How about Cleopatra? Forget about "very religious", she was a frickin' goddess.
I have also heard Cleopatra was a great one night stand :)
Imagine having sex with a goddess :)
posted by studentguru at 3:07 PM on July 27, 2006
My definition of suicide would include killing the self for no longer wanting to live with regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life
I think you're unlikely to find very religious people who committed suicide for these reasons, because most (if not all) major religious include some way to atone for, be forgiven for, etc., one's sins. Christianity (just to take the example I'm most familiar with) says that someone truly penitent who seeks God's forgiveness will be forgiven. I think mainstream religions in general have say, in one way or another, "no matter how horrible the thing you did was, there's a way to move past it and get on with your life." A very religious person would likely take this to heart, and his feelings of regret and guilt would thus be significantly reduced if not completely eliminated.
OTOH, if I'm wrong and there is some major religion that says, "you carry the full burden of your sins with you throughout your life," perhaps we should be looking to adherents of that religion for examples of the kind of suicide you're looking for. (On preview: if one considers humanism a religion, as paulsc does, that might fit. I don't consider humanism a religion.)
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:08 PM on July 27, 2006
I think you're unlikely to find very religious people who committed suicide for these reasons, because most (if not all) major religious include some way to atone for, be forgiven for, etc., one's sins. Christianity (just to take the example I'm most familiar with) says that someone truly penitent who seeks God's forgiveness will be forgiven. I think mainstream religions in general have say, in one way or another, "no matter how horrible the thing you did was, there's a way to move past it and get on with your life." A very religious person would likely take this to heart, and his feelings of regret and guilt would thus be significantly reduced if not completely eliminated.
OTOH, if I'm wrong and there is some major religion that says, "you carry the full burden of your sins with you throughout your life," perhaps we should be looking to adherents of that religion for examples of the kind of suicide you're looking for. (On preview: if one considers humanism a religion, as paulsc does, that might fit. I don't consider humanism a religion.)
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:08 PM on July 27, 2006
er, "...in general have say, in one way or another..."
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:08 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 3:08 PM on July 27, 2006
In a sense I am an expert on suicide.
Uh, by your definition, we all are, because we were all teenagers at one point.
Also, what's with repeating the exact same definition over and over? You said it once, we can read and refer up the thread if we forget.
posted by cyrusdogstar at 3:09 PM on July 27, 2006
Uh, by your definition, we all are, because we were all teenagers at one point.
Also, what's with repeating the exact same definition over and over? You said it once, we can read and refer up the thread if we forget.
posted by cyrusdogstar at 3:09 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster: I think you're unlikely to find very religious people who committed suicide for these reasons, because most (if not all) major religious include some way to atone for, be forgiven for, etc., one's sins. Christianity (just to take the example I'm most familiar with) says that someone truly penitent who seeks God's forgiveness will be forgiven. I think mainstream religions in general have say, in one way or another, "no matter how horrible the thing you did was, there's a way to move past it and get on with your life." A very religious person would likely take this to heart, and his feelings of regret and guilt would thus be significantly reduced if not completely eliminated.
I think the examples of Vincent Van Gogh and Minnie Vautrion look like what I was looking for. I need to read up about these two people to confirm.
posted by studentguru at 3:18 PM on July 27, 2006
I think the examples of Vincent Van Gogh and Minnie Vautrion look like what I was looking for. I need to read up about these two people to confirm.
posted by studentguru at 3:18 PM on July 27, 2006
During WWII, Captain John Philip Cromwell was on a submarine patrol and the submarine was badly damaged and had to surface. The rest of the crew surrendered to the Japanese, but because Captain Cromwell was privy to secrets which the Japanese could not be permitted to discover, he chose to go down with the submarine.
He was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for his decision to commit suicide.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 3:22 PM on July 27, 2006
He was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for his decision to commit suicide.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 3:22 PM on July 27, 2006
As mr_robot says, your definition of suicide is not really considered accurate anymore (by experts or by lots of people). Because generally speaking, we all have "regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life." Clinical depression just makes it seemingly impossible to ignore these, and thus the suicide. But it's not the feelings alone that do it.
Just because your depression and suicide attempt worked out for the best (thank goodness) doesn't mean that depression can't or doesn't cause suicide for anyone else.
posted by unknowncommand at 3:23 PM on July 27, 2006
Just because your depression and suicide attempt worked out for the best (thank goodness) doesn't mean that depression can't or doesn't cause suicide for anyone else.
posted by unknowncommand at 3:23 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster:
OTOH, if I'm wrong and there is some major religion that says, "you carry the full burden of your sins with you throughout your life," perhaps we should be looking to adherents of that religion for examples of the kind of suicide you're looking for. (On preview: if one considers humanism a religion, as paulsc does, that might fit. I don't consider humanism a religion.)
I want to thank both you and paulsc to bring up the subject of humanism.
paulsc was trying to say that non religious people like Phil Ochs also killed himself.
By bringing up the failures of humanism, he was trying to remind me and to counter my statement that "religion cannot save anybody from themselves"
I agree that neither humanism nor religion could save anybody from themselves.
The only thing that can save anybody from themselves is respect for self.
posted by studentguru at 3:29 PM on July 27, 2006
OTOH, if I'm wrong and there is some major religion that says, "you carry the full burden of your sins with you throughout your life," perhaps we should be looking to adherents of that religion for examples of the kind of suicide you're looking for. (On preview: if one considers humanism a religion, as paulsc does, that might fit. I don't consider humanism a religion.)
I want to thank both you and paulsc to bring up the subject of humanism.
paulsc was trying to say that non religious people like Phil Ochs also killed himself.
By bringing up the failures of humanism, he was trying to remind me and to counter my statement that "religion cannot save anybody from themselves"
I agree that neither humanism nor religion could save anybody from themselves.
The only thing that can save anybody from themselves is respect for self.
posted by studentguru at 3:29 PM on July 27, 2006
The few examples we have here of religious and "admirable" people committing suicide for personal reasons are hardly enough to demonstrate any kind of point about religion's ability to save people from themselves (whatever that means). I'm sure there are plenty of people who would have been persuaded agianst suicide by religious ideas
posted by thirteenkiller at 3:38 PM on July 27, 2006
posted by thirteenkiller at 3:38 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster:
In a sense I am an expert on suicide.
Uh, by your definition, we all are, because we were all teenagers at one point.
Unfortunately, many people forget what is means to be a child or a teenager.
They grow up and become a person just like their father or their mother, making the same mistakes, bringing up maladjusted children.
They buy into the mainstream idea of what it means to be a real man (or woman), success, courage, admirable traits. Fear of being themselves . Too willing to do what is popular rather than what is right . Living on borrowed time feeling like a fraud waiting to be found out.
No, I wouldn't consider these grownups an expert on suicide. Because they don't have a clue how to overcome the urge of committing suicide.
All they have been doing are spending their energy avoiding situations where they might consider suicide again.
posted by studentguru at 3:42 PM on July 27, 2006
In a sense I am an expert on suicide.
Uh, by your definition, we all are, because we were all teenagers at one point.
Unfortunately, many people forget what is means to be a child or a teenager.
They grow up and become a person just like their father or their mother, making the same mistakes, bringing up maladjusted children.
They buy into the mainstream idea of what it means to be a real man (or woman), success, courage, admirable traits. Fear of being themselves . Too willing to do what is popular rather than what is right . Living on borrowed time feeling like a fraud waiting to be found out.
No, I wouldn't consider these grownups an expert on suicide. Because they don't have a clue how to overcome the urge of committing suicide.
All they have been doing are spending their energy avoiding situations where they might consider suicide again.
posted by studentguru at 3:42 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster:
She may not be as famous as you would like, but Minnie Vautrion somes close to fitting the bill. She was a missionary to China. A couple months after witnessing the Rape of Nanking, she committed suicide because she was so troubled by what she saw.
I remember reading about her when I was reading a news article about Iris Chang.
A sad way to end a life.
posted by studentguru at 3:46 PM on July 27, 2006
She may not be as famous as you would like, but Minnie Vautrion somes close to fitting the bill. She was a missionary to China. A couple months after witnessing the Rape of Nanking, she committed suicide because she was so troubled by what she saw.
I remember reading about her when I was reading a news article about Iris Chang.
A sad way to end a life.
posted by studentguru at 3:46 PM on July 27, 2006
Actually, based on a 20 minute conversation with about 5 other people and Phil Ochs in the fall of 1971, I think that Phil was truly a Spiritual Humanist; he said, very simply that night, that he believed in our capacity to love one another, and he thought that the great struggle we faced as individuals, that played out in all of our efforts to build larger groups and societies, was just finding ways to genuinely express that part of our nature. He said that we were all members of a hateful, murderous race, that had managed to make it this far only because it took less effort to make a baby than to kill an adult, so that on balance, our numbers increased. And he said that we couldn't keep on counting on that strategy in a world filled with nuclear bombs and huge armies, because now (meaning then) it was as easy to push a button and wipe out millions, as it was to still make a baby.
He could be wickedly funny, and self-deprecating, and I'm sorry our paths crossed only that one night. I'd have liked to have known him better. But I know from what I saw in his eyes, more than anyone else I ever met, that he believed in salvation and in redemption, and he believed we each had to take personal responsibility to save ourselves as a species, and that if we managed it, we'd redeem our murderous ancestral history, as well. He had faith, and faith in us, and he wanted to share that. You call it what you will, but I call that religion.
posted by paulsc at 3:53 PM on July 27, 2006
He could be wickedly funny, and self-deprecating, and I'm sorry our paths crossed only that one night. I'd have liked to have known him better. But I know from what I saw in his eyes, more than anyone else I ever met, that he believed in salvation and in redemption, and he believed we each had to take personal responsibility to save ourselves as a species, and that if we managed it, we'd redeem our murderous ancestral history, as well. He had faith, and faith in us, and he wanted to share that. You call it what you will, but I call that religion.
posted by paulsc at 3:53 PM on July 27, 2006
Response by poster:
As mr_robot says, your definition of suicide is not really considered accurate anymore (by experts or by lots of people). Because generally speaking, we all have "regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life." Clinical depression just makes it seemingly impossible to ignore these, and thus the suicide. But it's not the feelings alone that do it.
Just because your depression and suicide attempt worked out for the best (thank goodness) doesn't mean that depression can't or doesn't cause suicide for anyone else.
"by experts or by lots of people" is seldom a basis on which I base my beliefs or my terms of living.
Yes, we all have "regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life." But it seems to me not many people know how to live with this aspect of life.
They have very little idea how to forgive others and to forgive themselves. And it looks like religion isn't helping either.
Learning to view depression as a great lesson in life is a choice. Trust me, depression is one of the best things anybody can hope to go through in life.
If handled right, it is a character building exercise. Seems to me people who chose to kill themselves in depression have chosen to give up on that exercise.
posted by studentguru at 3:56 PM on July 27, 2006
As mr_robot says, your definition of suicide is not really considered accurate anymore (by experts or by lots of people). Because generally speaking, we all have "regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life." Clinical depression just makes it seemingly impossible to ignore these, and thus the suicide. But it's not the feelings alone that do it.
Just because your depression and suicide attempt worked out for the best (thank goodness) doesn't mean that depression can't or doesn't cause suicide for anyone else.
"by experts or by lots of people" is seldom a basis on which I base my beliefs or my terms of living.
Yes, we all have "regrets and guilt and the thoughts of wrong choices in life." But it seems to me not many people know how to live with this aspect of life.
They have very little idea how to forgive others and to forgive themselves. And it looks like religion isn't helping either.
Learning to view depression as a great lesson in life is a choice. Trust me, depression is one of the best things anybody can hope to go through in life.
If handled right, it is a character building exercise. Seems to me people who chose to kill themselves in depression have chosen to give up on that exercise.
posted by studentguru at 3:56 PM on July 27, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by InfidelZombie at 1:17 PM on July 27, 2006 [1 favorite]