Is this edX / state university coding bootcamp worth it?
October 31, 2023 5:27 AM Subscribe
My son is interested in taking an edX "Learn Coding in 24 Weeks" bootcamp hosted by our state university. It costs $12,000 and earns a certificate.
I have no doubt about his ability to complete it, but I have 2 concerns ...
1) Is it worth the $12k to go with the edX / state university program, or are there lower-cost programs that will earn him an equivalent certificate?
2) This is his first experience learning to code, and I know he'll do an excellent job in the bootcamp. What kind of salary can he realistically expect to earn in northeast US with this certificate? I believe they're telling him $70 - 90k starting.
I have no doubt about his ability to complete it, but I have 2 concerns ...
1) Is it worth the $12k to go with the edX / state university program, or are there lower-cost programs that will earn him an equivalent certificate?
2) This is his first experience learning to code, and I know he'll do an excellent job in the bootcamp. What kind of salary can he realistically expect to earn in northeast US with this certificate? I believe they're telling him $70 - 90k starting.
How old is he? Does he already have a degree? Do you have a more extensive description of the program?
That's about the salary range for a junior dev, but most places are going to value a degree over bootcamps. These bootcamp certs really only mean they know (I assume) one language and are capable of finishing projects. Which is fine, but without some other supporting evidence of capabilities it probably won't get him a job*.
Before I paid $12K for this, I'd ask him to complete a cheap or free online course in Python, Ruby, or Java and come up with 1-2 portfolio projects. Then do at least some intro Coursera or similar courses on Agile, enough to talk about it in interviews with familiarity. Like, I think a motivated relatively smart person with sufficient free time can largely bootcamp themselves for the cost of a couple of courseware subscriptions (also check your local library, I get at least two different learning platform subs from there) and time.
*Worth figuring out with him what kind of career he envisions. Not all developers work in games (an industry with major labor and culture issues) or Silicon Valley startups (ditto), but most young people with stars in their eyes don't want to hear about working in business application development, like in-house at an insurance company or healthcare system or farming machinery company or whatever, but this IS where all my experience is and you know what? Those folks generally work 40ish hour weeks and get to have hobbies and lives outside of work. Getting a junior spot at one of those boring places IS easier, especially with some portfolio projects.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:53 AM on October 31, 2023 [18 favorites]
That's about the salary range for a junior dev, but most places are going to value a degree over bootcamps. These bootcamp certs really only mean they know (I assume) one language and are capable of finishing projects. Which is fine, but without some other supporting evidence of capabilities it probably won't get him a job*.
Before I paid $12K for this, I'd ask him to complete a cheap or free online course in Python, Ruby, or Java and come up with 1-2 portfolio projects. Then do at least some intro Coursera or similar courses on Agile, enough to talk about it in interviews with familiarity. Like, I think a motivated relatively smart person with sufficient free time can largely bootcamp themselves for the cost of a couple of courseware subscriptions (also check your local library, I get at least two different learning platform subs from there) and time.
*Worth figuring out with him what kind of career he envisions. Not all developers work in games (an industry with major labor and culture issues) or Silicon Valley startups (ditto), but most young people with stars in their eyes don't want to hear about working in business application development, like in-house at an insurance company or healthcare system or farming machinery company or whatever, but this IS where all my experience is and you know what? Those folks generally work 40ish hour weeks and get to have hobbies and lives outside of work. Getting a junior spot at one of those boring places IS easier, especially with some portfolio projects.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:53 AM on October 31, 2023 [18 favorites]
Most universities have a job placement department. As an “is this worth it” step, have your son speak to them and ask how frequently they place bootcamp grads, what types of open coding positions they get, and what the starting salary range is. It will help to level set expectations.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:12 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:12 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, I am a grad of a private, in-person, for-profit bootcamp (10 years ago) and have worked at the same software company ever since (now a senior developer there). My company has hired bootcamp grads within the last few years, and my younger sister completed a boot camp about two years ago and now works as a developer. I don't know exactly how much my sister or the recent hires at my own company made as new hires, but those salary numbers look realistic. Enrolling in a bootcamp was a huge financial net positive for me.
On the other hand it's definitely possible for most people to learn everything that that gets taught in a bootcamp on their own, and there are DIY solutions like freeCodeCamp. Benefits of a paid-for bootcamp vs. a roll your own kind of situation are that there's usually more job search assistance (although sometimes this ends up being like, "we hire you as a TA so that we can say that all of our grads are employed within one month of finishing the program"), and there's structure - clear milestones, deadlines, etc. And I think a lot of companies are more willing to take on grads of established bootcamps rather than self-taught folks just because someone else has already done some evaluation with a bootcamp grad.
Your son's ease of finding a job will depend about as much on his professionalism and pleasantness-to-work-with as it will on his coding ability, so that's something else to keep in mind. Knowing how to code at a bootcamp level is absolutely not enough to get you hired on its own. Finding that first good job is pretty key - I know plenty of people who ended up in first jobs that couldn't provide them with the support they needed as new hires, or that established bad habits. Basically you need to expect to be learning as much (or more) in your first six months on the job as you learn in the six-month bootcamp.
Also as Lyn Never points out, most software jobs are extremely unglamorous. A lot of bootcamp grads I know work for big ecommerce companies like Wayfair, or random companies that do outsourced HR solutions or run a platform for realtors to share keys, or something like that. I think I know one fellow bootcamp grad who does something cool (data-driven journalism). My own current project is something along the lines of helping affluent Unitarians reduce real estate transaction costs (that's a Mad Libs version but the real thing is equally boring).
All that said, even with recent layoffs etc., a software development career is fairly flexible (outside of most games companies, startups, and FAANGs) and quite lucrative. Boring software jobs tend to allow a pretty good lifestyle.
posted by mskyle at 6:18 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
On the other hand it's definitely possible for most people to learn everything that that gets taught in a bootcamp on their own, and there are DIY solutions like freeCodeCamp. Benefits of a paid-for bootcamp vs. a roll your own kind of situation are that there's usually more job search assistance (although sometimes this ends up being like, "we hire you as a TA so that we can say that all of our grads are employed within one month of finishing the program"), and there's structure - clear milestones, deadlines, etc. And I think a lot of companies are more willing to take on grads of established bootcamps rather than self-taught folks just because someone else has already done some evaluation with a bootcamp grad.
Your son's ease of finding a job will depend about as much on his professionalism and pleasantness-to-work-with as it will on his coding ability, so that's something else to keep in mind. Knowing how to code at a bootcamp level is absolutely not enough to get you hired on its own. Finding that first good job is pretty key - I know plenty of people who ended up in first jobs that couldn't provide them with the support they needed as new hires, or that established bad habits. Basically you need to expect to be learning as much (or more) in your first six months on the job as you learn in the six-month bootcamp.
Also as Lyn Never points out, most software jobs are extremely unglamorous. A lot of bootcamp grads I know work for big ecommerce companies like Wayfair, or random companies that do outsourced HR solutions or run a platform for realtors to share keys, or something like that. I think I know one fellow bootcamp grad who does something cool (data-driven journalism). My own current project is something along the lines of helping affluent Unitarians reduce real estate transaction costs (that's a Mad Libs version but the real thing is equally boring).
All that said, even with recent layoffs etc., a software development career is fairly flexible (outside of most games companies, startups, and FAANGs) and quite lucrative. Boring software jobs tend to allow a pretty good lifestyle.
posted by mskyle at 6:18 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
Lyn Never: Those folks generally work 40ish hour weeks and get to have hobbies and lives outside of work. Getting a junior spot at one of those boring places IS easier, especially with some portfolio projects.
AMEN
One of my sons is about to graduate with a CS degree. I told him the same message: the games business Eats Its Young, whereas "boring" companies let their staff leave at 5:00pm, and take vacation, and turn off their phone on the weekend.
Life > glamour, my boy.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:20 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
AMEN
One of my sons is about to graduate with a CS degree. I told him the same message: the games business Eats Its Young, whereas "boring" companies let their staff leave at 5:00pm, and take vacation, and turn off their phone on the weekend.
Life > glamour, my boy.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:20 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Context: I’m twice your kid’s age and did my bootcamp in a different speciality.
I’m at the tail end of a data analytics bootcamp that I paid about that much money for. I picked this one because they claim to refund your tuition if you don’t find a job within 9 months of graduating (provided you follow their guidelines for job hunting).
I’m being fairly successful in my program because I had strong computer literacy skills going in and also spent 3 months cramming Python before my course started. I did this by buying a year subscription to Udemy and switching off between two different “intro to Python” courses. This meant that when I got stuck on a topic in one, I could go to the other and see how they explained it or switch to a different “next topic” altogether.
The classroom experience for my bootcamp was not worth the money I paid for it. BUT. Paying for it has been worth it for the accountability (I would not have been able to focus on cramming for 3 months then 2 months of intensive study without the financial commitment) and for the (forthcoming) post-graduation career support.
posted by itesser at 6:21 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m at the tail end of a data analytics bootcamp that I paid about that much money for. I picked this one because they claim to refund your tuition if you don’t find a job within 9 months of graduating (provided you follow their guidelines for job hunting).
I’m being fairly successful in my program because I had strong computer literacy skills going in and also spent 3 months cramming Python before my course started. I did this by buying a year subscription to Udemy and switching off between two different “intro to Python” courses. This meant that when I got stuck on a topic in one, I could go to the other and see how they explained it or switch to a different “next topic” altogether.
The classroom experience for my bootcamp was not worth the money I paid for it. BUT. Paying for it has been worth it for the accountability (I would not have been able to focus on cramming for 3 months then 2 months of intensive study without the financial commitment) and for the (forthcoming) post-graduation career support.
posted by itesser at 6:21 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
How is the $12K being paid for? I ask not out of nosiness but because some of these bootcamps are tangled up in questionable financial arrangements he'd be well-advised to steer clear of.
(Also worth digging into--just because the program appears to be offered by a local public university doesn't mean it's not actually being run by some for-profit partner, which should be taken into account. Look for a name like 2U.)
posted by praemunire at 7:16 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
(Also worth digging into--just because the program appears to be offered by a local public university doesn't mean it's not actually being run by some for-profit partner, which should be taken into account. Look for a name like 2U.)
posted by praemunire at 7:16 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
A relative of mine was quite happy with their experience in a bootcamp that cost about that much - but they very specifically went looking for a bootcamp where part of the bootcamp specifically was assistance with placing you into an internship as part of the program, and that internship definitely helped them move into their first developer job post-bootcamp. A camp that was just the classwork and no practical assistance getting a job would have been significantly less valuable to my relative, I think, as they are in fact a pretty motivated self-teacher and would eventually have taught themself much of the same material, albeit with less support and over a longer timeframe. If I were your son I think I would be looking into what kind of transition-to-an-actual-job support is available from the bootcamp and/or the university.
posted by Stacey at 7:23 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Stacey at 7:23 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Does your son have a degree in another field? If not, the boot camp experience can give him some access that a self taught person without a degree will not get. A lot of big employers have added pathways for boot camp grads to help broaden their reach and may even waive degree requirements for it.
Degree or not, getting a boot camp certificate really does help solve the "how do you get a job with no experience" question as well. When a candidate comes in with a boot camp certificate, it seems to really help a lot of my peers feel more comfortable advancing that candidate into the in person/zoom rounds of the hiring process.
I currently work for a large university that offers this bootcamp, and we've hired from it, and I also know grads who have landed at other companies, from huge places like Target to super small employers.
So far, I've only talked about access. Do boot camps ready students to be employable on day one? Only if he puts in the work. We'll try to evaluate that with his ability to talk about the projects he's worked on with a solid understanding of the challenges that work solved.
Are there just as good, but cheaper options? That's a local question that I can't answer. There are a few around here that have great reputations, but they actually cost a little more.
The starting salaries you listed look reasonable, but I'm in the midwest, so that may not be the most useful gut check.
posted by advicepig at 7:27 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Degree or not, getting a boot camp certificate really does help solve the "how do you get a job with no experience" question as well. When a candidate comes in with a boot camp certificate, it seems to really help a lot of my peers feel more comfortable advancing that candidate into the in person/zoom rounds of the hiring process.
I currently work for a large university that offers this bootcamp, and we've hired from it, and I also know grads who have landed at other companies, from huge places like Target to super small employers.
So far, I've only talked about access. Do boot camps ready students to be employable on day one? Only if he puts in the work. We'll try to evaluate that with his ability to talk about the projects he's worked on with a solid understanding of the challenges that work solved.
Are there just as good, but cheaper options? That's a local question that I can't answer. There are a few around here that have great reputations, but they actually cost a little more.
The starting salaries you listed look reasonable, but I'm in the midwest, so that may not be the most useful gut check.
posted by advicepig at 7:27 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
TIL that edX is now a for-profit enterprise :-(
posted by scolbath at 8:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by scolbath at 8:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I went through one of these Bootcamps that was held on conjunction with UC Berkeley Extension. Yes, it was edX. And it was right at the start of COVID season.
If you already know how to market yourself, and you put in the time and effort, it'd be worth it. But if you don't know how to market yourself, and you lack programming talent, you will NOT get as much out of this as you can. Let's just say, I saw 1/4 of the class didn't show up for week 2.
I was in the full stack web dev program, FWIW.
posted by kschang at 10:36 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you already know how to market yourself, and you put in the time and effort, it'd be worth it. But if you don't know how to market yourself, and you lack programming talent, you will NOT get as much out of this as you can. Let's just say, I saw 1/4 of the class didn't show up for week 2.
I was in the full stack web dev program, FWIW.
posted by kschang at 10:36 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Assuming EdX works the same hands-off way it did ten years ago, 12K is nuts. For that price, I’d want people available to work through problems with your son regularly.
When I’ve interviewed people or screened resumes, I didn't pay too much attention to their education, but I have noticed that boot camp grads are far more variable in skill than fresh out of college CS grads, which made me skeptical about the depth of learning that happens in boot camps. In both cases, I usually wanted to see substantial projects — not boot camp REST exercises — that actually run. That’s something you can do without paying money, but it does some people to have accountability partners to get that kind of thing done.
posted by ignignokt at 10:53 AM on October 31, 2023
When I’ve interviewed people or screened resumes, I didn't pay too much attention to their education, but I have noticed that boot camp grads are far more variable in skill than fresh out of college CS grads, which made me skeptical about the depth of learning that happens in boot camps. In both cases, I usually wanted to see substantial projects — not boot camp REST exercises — that actually run. That’s something you can do without paying money, but it does some people to have accountability partners to get that kind of thing done.
posted by ignignokt at 10:53 AM on October 31, 2023
ignignokt, it's not the MOOC era EdX self driven learning management system content sold as classes. It's much more like the boot camp experience you expect from an intensive course with a cohort of various mixed backgrounds.
posted by advicepig at 11:30 AM on October 31, 2023
posted by advicepig at 11:30 AM on October 31, 2023
Assuming EdX works the same hands-off way it did ten years ago, 12K is nuts.
I think Georgia Tech's online CS degree---which is very well regarded---is 10k total. UT Austin is in a similar boat.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:20 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think Georgia Tech's online CS degree---which is very well regarded---is 10k total. UT Austin is in a similar boat.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:20 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
I went through a coding boot camp ~eight years ago and have had a successful career in tech since. My advice would be to get a very concrete picture of how the program will help place graduates in jobs, as that is a crucial part of actually getting into the industry. My boot camp ended with a month-long internship that turned into my first job in the industry, and eventually was a place I worked for years and grew quite a bit. My brother went to a better-regarded boot camp around when I did that had no job placement help, and had a really tough first couple of years establishing himself in the industry. He's also doing really well now career-wise, but his road was much more rocky to start. So unless you son is the sort of person who loves to network and vigorously pursue opportunities, the job placement that the boot camp does (or doesn't do) will likely matter as much as the subject matter that is covered during the classes.
posted by lhputtgrass at 1:14 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by lhputtgrass at 1:14 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Far more valuable if you son has a college degree in STEM or from an elite college/university.
IMPORTANT that this program have a multi-dimensional job placement program with verifiable results.
ESSENTIAL that your son actually verify those results on LinkedIn - as in he should get the full list of what the school claims to be successful placements in the last few years and look each one of them up on LinkedIn (and, yes, he should buy the ~$25 LinkedIn premium subscription for this effort). He should see that they still have the jobs the school reported. He should see that they did not all or even mostly have much better pre-bootcamp resumes (school + work) than he will have coming out. Still having the jobs is important - tech hiring was CRAZY from about summer 2020 to summer 2022. LOTS of people got jobs with CVs that would not have gotten those jobs earlier ... but not so many of them still have jobs...
posted by MattD at 3:36 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
IMPORTANT that this program have a multi-dimensional job placement program with verifiable results.
ESSENTIAL that your son actually verify those results on LinkedIn - as in he should get the full list of what the school claims to be successful placements in the last few years and look each one of them up on LinkedIn (and, yes, he should buy the ~$25 LinkedIn premium subscription for this effort). He should see that they still have the jobs the school reported. He should see that they did not all or even mostly have much better pre-bootcamp resumes (school + work) than he will have coming out. Still having the jobs is important - tech hiring was CRAZY from about summer 2020 to summer 2022. LOTS of people got jobs with CVs that would not have gotten those jobs earlier ... but not so many of them still have jobs...
posted by MattD at 3:36 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Since it's hosted by a state university, you might check directly with the boot camp about funding options. Often boot camps aren't eligible for federal aid but there might be local or state funds for need based aid or even job training funds. The boot camp program is likely to have more current information on funding than the main financial aid office for the state university.
posted by yohko at 4:57 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by yohko at 4:57 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Bootcamp will ask you to get a loan from bank. My loan was originally from Well Fargo but transferred to FirstMark.
posted by kschang at 6:52 PM on October 31, 2023
posted by kschang at 6:52 PM on October 31, 2023
Agreed. As I said in my previous comment, 1/4 of the class didn't show up for the 2nd week. If you need to MeMail me go ahead. I'll answer any questions you or your son may have. Keep in mind. I'm much older (50s) and I now regret putting in 10K (that was the price back in 2020) which I am still paying off.
posted by kschang at 7:07 PM on October 31, 2023
posted by kschang at 7:07 PM on October 31, 2023
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Looks like if your kid is a self starter, it could be a waste.
Also - a whole subreddit about it.
posted by ReluctantViking at 5:45 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]