How to keep the house clean, fairly: neurodivergent new parent filter
August 3, 2022 1:12 PM Subscribe
For the past year since the arrival of our baby, we've really struggled to stay on top of very basic house cleaning. We're constantly fighting about it because both of us feel like we're doing our very best and the other parent could be doing more. What strategies have you used successfully to stay on top of cleaning and have a roughly equal division of labour, when you were a new parent?
***I only want advice from parents, please. Not people who were once children themselves, or people who know some parents, but people who have direct, personal experience raising small children. General cleaning strategies/tips or more specific relationship advice are both welcome. Thanks!***
Some relevant details and background. Sorry, it's long.
-I'm not talking about semi-optional things like dusting and wiping the mirrors - more like a constant struggle to avoid having every possible surface (counters, floors, tables...) covered with dirty dishes/decaying food scraps/crumbs/wrappers, sometimes for days at a time. We had a horrifying maggot incident recently. It's never all the way clean, just more or less disastrous.
-We both have executive function problems (much more severe in my case with ADHD diagnosed and autism also suspected, as described in my previous question on this account, but he sometimes struggles with EF stuff too). My ADHD is, and will remain for awhile longer, unmedicated for Reasons (and meds don't work well for me anyway, despite many years of optimizing various options). We had problems with cleaning before baby too but it wasn't nearly this bad.
-He's a wonderful dad and has many great qualities that aren't relevant to this question. This is pretty much the only thing we fight about, but we fight about it a lot.
-Overall, he does much more than what seems to be the "average" for a man in a cis-het relationship, partly because I spend a lot of ongoing mental effort checking that the labour is divided as fairly as we can manage, and partly, to his credit, because he agrees it should ideally be 50-50. We just don't agree on what that means in real life. I would guess he does a solid 40-45% of the house/baby/dog chores on average, and some days even more like 60%. I'm not particularly unhappy with our division of labour, except that he constantly complains that he does "everything" while I do "nothing", and also more importantly, we aren't getting enough cleaning done overall for the house to be sanitary. Most of his friends (and definitely his parents) seem to have less equitable relationships, and while he's very progressive in that sense, he's also influenced by seeing other women in his life doing a disproportionate amount of work.
-Our free time is very limited because baby sleeps poorly, with unusually low total sleep needs and still multiple wakeups at one year old. I handle all night wakeups because I breastfeed baby back to sleep at each wakeup, and I try to sleep the entire time the baby does, which typically gets me around 6.5-7 hours of sleep split into 3-5 stretches, which is bare-minimum but survivable for me. I'm not willing to sleep train. Baby's bedtime is also very late (~11pm, never before 10pm, sometimes midnight if it's a bad night). We've never succeeded at an earlier bedtime that wasn't a disaster of being up for hours and hours in the middle of the night. So we don't get that glorious stretch of kid-free evening free time that most other parents seem to have.
-For OCD reasons, my partner refuses to have cleaners in the house occasionally (or even once), which I feel would really help us stay afloat. We've fought about this many times and he's not budging. He's also unwilling to accept any cleaning help from family/friends (his retired parents have offered). He's also not willing to participate in individual or couple's therapy, or get any kind of help whatsoever to manage his OCD. We're not rich at all but money isn't the issue, we can afford it.
-We currently have ~1.5 hours each of free time every night for all hobbies, self-care, working out, etc. My partner watches baby during my free time, and my partner's free time is after baby and I go to sleep (this assumes partner gets 8 hours of sleep, but he often stays up later to get extra free time). My partner wants us to do cleaning instead during this time, and he's probably right that it needs to be trimmed down, but my mental health really suffered having almost no free time before we started doing this schedule when baby was ~8 months old so I'm reluctant to go back to that. I also feel this would make things more unequal because he can just sacrifice sleep to get free time while I can't because I'm already getting the minimum, and he also sleeps in late on the weekend to catch up but I can't.
-My partner has been a SAHP for 3 months and will continue another month, then daycare starts, which will likely make things harder with commuting time etc. Before that, I was the SAHP for 10 months. I also care for baby alone for most of the day on the weekends (several hours in the morning while my partner sleeps, then several more while he takes our dog to the dog park in the afternoon).
-We have constant fights about perceived fairness/laziness regardless of who's the main caretaker. When I was on leave I got all the dishes and laundry (baby's and mine only) done every day, wiped kitchen surfaces down maybe twice a week, and walked the dog for 20-30 minutes every day while baby napped (with partner WFH). With a baby who screamed when set down awake at all and who napped badly (including contact naps needed for many months), I wasn't able to do any more chores than that and we fought bitterly and often about how much more cleaning I should be doing. Now the challenges are different since baby is very actively crawling and making food messes but can also play with toys independently or be plopped in the playpen very briefly - only for a couple minutes here and there, but I try to use it well. I find the cleaning challenges fairly equivalent overall to before, and can usually still do a load of laundry and dishes while watching the baby most weekend days unless we go out etc. My partner is not able to do chores at all while on parental duty, though, and insists that he needs to be within arms reach constantly to stop baby from falling on the ground etc. He also prefers to feed her snacks on the floor which gets crumbs, cracker chunks, cheerios etc absolutely everywhere (which is never cleaned up after). I also WFH and breastfeed about 4x during the 9-5 day for about 15 minutes while partner relaxes, because "you're on your phone too so it's only fair". I watch baby for about 20 minutes during my lunch hour so he can cook and eat something himself (he did not do this for me, I ate cereal etc whenever I could manage it). He walks the dog during baby's first nap like I did, but naps during the second one instead of starting supper like I did when on leave, because he's "tired" (!!!). I feel really resentful about this after so many months of constant complaining that the house was too messy and pressuring me to do more while I was stretching myself thin trying to set baby down for a few minutes to clean at every possible moment I could instead of enjoying the few non-colicky moments with my tiny baby (I wouldn't be nearly as resentful if he apologized after realizing the challenges of being the primary caretaker, but of course he doesn't think he was wrong because "it's much harder now"). I think this might just be something I need to get over but I'm not sure how to stop fixating on fairness and hypocrisy (this is a common issue for me in general) - I know many people do fine with a much less equal division of labour than we have, but it still really bothers me.
-To be fair, it has indeed gotten much harder since starting solid foods since that makes an overwhelming amount of mess many times a day. Any tips in this area are very welcome. We already have an easy to clean chair, hard floors, and a dog to clean up the tastier bits. It's still just overwhelming.
-I clean my plate and usually baby's plate immediately after eating, so at least they can be stacked neatly-ish until we can deal with them, whereas my partner leaves his on the counter, piled high with uneaten food and wrappers. Efforts to change this pattern have been...wildly unsuccessful.
-He has germs-focused OCD which he's unwilling to get any sort of treatment for, and this manifests as strict rules about how the chores can be done to avoid "contaminating" things (for example handwashing a million times a day after touching some things and before touching others, even halfway through cleaning tasks, cleaning only in an exact pattern, restrictions on where items can be moved that are often unclear to me, not allowing me to clean certain areas like toilets at all, etc etc). If any "rules" are broken there's angry panicked reaction of "go clean everywhere you touched since then". We also fight about this a lot since it feels very controlling to me, I find the excessive handwashing very difficult to tolerate sensory-wise, and I find it difficult-to-impossible to keep all the "rules" straight (which I believe is caused by ADHD or just being a non-mindreading human, and he believes is caused by me not caring about his feelings enough).
-Our current schedule: every weeknight, I stop work at 5, usually breastfeed for ~15 minutes, walk the dog for ~30 minutes and then prep supper for ~30-60+ minutes (easiest meals possible, I'm just slow) while partner watches baby. After feeding ourselves and baby, who's a slow and fussy eater, and taking the dog out, it's usually already time for my free time window to start (we aim for 9pm). On the weekends we don't have much more free time because my partner sleeps in until 11ish, we eat, and then he's gone with the dog around 1-4pm. Then he's tired and wants to relax on his phone when he's back. I don't know if trying to develop a more strict schedule would help. I honestly don't really know where a lot of the time goes. One of us (usually me) is on baby duty at a time and the other one does...mystery things.
-Our dog is pretty high needs too so that's also a factor (the 2x daily walks and weekend off leash hours are required, and she also needs a lot of playtime in the yard every day, where she needs close, ideally baby-free supervision because she barks at everything and everyone that walks by and constantly needs to be redirected).
-I am well-aware that we have a lot of issues, and that the option to leave exists. I am looking for practical or relationship-oriented advice should I choose not to use that option.
tl;dr: how can we get more daily cleaning done, without making the division of labour too unfair?
***I only want advice from parents, please. Not people who were once children themselves, or people who know some parents, but people who have direct, personal experience raising small children. General cleaning strategies/tips or more specific relationship advice are both welcome. Thanks!***
Some relevant details and background. Sorry, it's long.
-I'm not talking about semi-optional things like dusting and wiping the mirrors - more like a constant struggle to avoid having every possible surface (counters, floors, tables...) covered with dirty dishes/decaying food scraps/crumbs/wrappers, sometimes for days at a time. We had a horrifying maggot incident recently. It's never all the way clean, just more or less disastrous.
-We both have executive function problems (much more severe in my case with ADHD diagnosed and autism also suspected, as described in my previous question on this account, but he sometimes struggles with EF stuff too). My ADHD is, and will remain for awhile longer, unmedicated for Reasons (and meds don't work well for me anyway, despite many years of optimizing various options). We had problems with cleaning before baby too but it wasn't nearly this bad.
-He's a wonderful dad and has many great qualities that aren't relevant to this question. This is pretty much the only thing we fight about, but we fight about it a lot.
-Overall, he does much more than what seems to be the "average" for a man in a cis-het relationship, partly because I spend a lot of ongoing mental effort checking that the labour is divided as fairly as we can manage, and partly, to his credit, because he agrees it should ideally be 50-50. We just don't agree on what that means in real life. I would guess he does a solid 40-45% of the house/baby/dog chores on average, and some days even more like 60%. I'm not particularly unhappy with our division of labour, except that he constantly complains that he does "everything" while I do "nothing", and also more importantly, we aren't getting enough cleaning done overall for the house to be sanitary. Most of his friends (and definitely his parents) seem to have less equitable relationships, and while he's very progressive in that sense, he's also influenced by seeing other women in his life doing a disproportionate amount of work.
-Our free time is very limited because baby sleeps poorly, with unusually low total sleep needs and still multiple wakeups at one year old. I handle all night wakeups because I breastfeed baby back to sleep at each wakeup, and I try to sleep the entire time the baby does, which typically gets me around 6.5-7 hours of sleep split into 3-5 stretches, which is bare-minimum but survivable for me. I'm not willing to sleep train. Baby's bedtime is also very late (~11pm, never before 10pm, sometimes midnight if it's a bad night). We've never succeeded at an earlier bedtime that wasn't a disaster of being up for hours and hours in the middle of the night. So we don't get that glorious stretch of kid-free evening free time that most other parents seem to have.
-For OCD reasons, my partner refuses to have cleaners in the house occasionally (or even once), which I feel would really help us stay afloat. We've fought about this many times and he's not budging. He's also unwilling to accept any cleaning help from family/friends (his retired parents have offered). He's also not willing to participate in individual or couple's therapy, or get any kind of help whatsoever to manage his OCD. We're not rich at all but money isn't the issue, we can afford it.
-We currently have ~1.5 hours each of free time every night for all hobbies, self-care, working out, etc. My partner watches baby during my free time, and my partner's free time is after baby and I go to sleep (this assumes partner gets 8 hours of sleep, but he often stays up later to get extra free time). My partner wants us to do cleaning instead during this time, and he's probably right that it needs to be trimmed down, but my mental health really suffered having almost no free time before we started doing this schedule when baby was ~8 months old so I'm reluctant to go back to that. I also feel this would make things more unequal because he can just sacrifice sleep to get free time while I can't because I'm already getting the minimum, and he also sleeps in late on the weekend to catch up but I can't.
-My partner has been a SAHP for 3 months and will continue another month, then daycare starts, which will likely make things harder with commuting time etc. Before that, I was the SAHP for 10 months. I also care for baby alone for most of the day on the weekends (several hours in the morning while my partner sleeps, then several more while he takes our dog to the dog park in the afternoon).
-We have constant fights about perceived fairness/laziness regardless of who's the main caretaker. When I was on leave I got all the dishes and laundry (baby's and mine only) done every day, wiped kitchen surfaces down maybe twice a week, and walked the dog for 20-30 minutes every day while baby napped (with partner WFH). With a baby who screamed when set down awake at all and who napped badly (including contact naps needed for many months), I wasn't able to do any more chores than that and we fought bitterly and often about how much more cleaning I should be doing. Now the challenges are different since baby is very actively crawling and making food messes but can also play with toys independently or be plopped in the playpen very briefly - only for a couple minutes here and there, but I try to use it well. I find the cleaning challenges fairly equivalent overall to before, and can usually still do a load of laundry and dishes while watching the baby most weekend days unless we go out etc. My partner is not able to do chores at all while on parental duty, though, and insists that he needs to be within arms reach constantly to stop baby from falling on the ground etc. He also prefers to feed her snacks on the floor which gets crumbs, cracker chunks, cheerios etc absolutely everywhere (which is never cleaned up after). I also WFH and breastfeed about 4x during the 9-5 day for about 15 minutes while partner relaxes, because "you're on your phone too so it's only fair". I watch baby for about 20 minutes during my lunch hour so he can cook and eat something himself (he did not do this for me, I ate cereal etc whenever I could manage it). He walks the dog during baby's first nap like I did, but naps during the second one instead of starting supper like I did when on leave, because he's "tired" (!!!). I feel really resentful about this after so many months of constant complaining that the house was too messy and pressuring me to do more while I was stretching myself thin trying to set baby down for a few minutes to clean at every possible moment I could instead of enjoying the few non-colicky moments with my tiny baby (I wouldn't be nearly as resentful if he apologized after realizing the challenges of being the primary caretaker, but of course he doesn't think he was wrong because "it's much harder now"). I think this might just be something I need to get over but I'm not sure how to stop fixating on fairness and hypocrisy (this is a common issue for me in general) - I know many people do fine with a much less equal division of labour than we have, but it still really bothers me.
-To be fair, it has indeed gotten much harder since starting solid foods since that makes an overwhelming amount of mess many times a day. Any tips in this area are very welcome. We already have an easy to clean chair, hard floors, and a dog to clean up the tastier bits. It's still just overwhelming.
-I clean my plate and usually baby's plate immediately after eating, so at least they can be stacked neatly-ish until we can deal with them, whereas my partner leaves his on the counter, piled high with uneaten food and wrappers. Efforts to change this pattern have been...wildly unsuccessful.
-He has germs-focused OCD which he's unwilling to get any sort of treatment for, and this manifests as strict rules about how the chores can be done to avoid "contaminating" things (for example handwashing a million times a day after touching some things and before touching others, even halfway through cleaning tasks, cleaning only in an exact pattern, restrictions on where items can be moved that are often unclear to me, not allowing me to clean certain areas like toilets at all, etc etc). If any "rules" are broken there's angry panicked reaction of "go clean everywhere you touched since then". We also fight about this a lot since it feels very controlling to me, I find the excessive handwashing very difficult to tolerate sensory-wise, and I find it difficult-to-impossible to keep all the "rules" straight (which I believe is caused by ADHD or just being a non-mindreading human, and he believes is caused by me not caring about his feelings enough).
-Our current schedule: every weeknight, I stop work at 5, usually breastfeed for ~15 minutes, walk the dog for ~30 minutes and then prep supper for ~30-60+ minutes (easiest meals possible, I'm just slow) while partner watches baby. After feeding ourselves and baby, who's a slow and fussy eater, and taking the dog out, it's usually already time for my free time window to start (we aim for 9pm). On the weekends we don't have much more free time because my partner sleeps in until 11ish, we eat, and then he's gone with the dog around 1-4pm. Then he's tired and wants to relax on his phone when he's back. I don't know if trying to develop a more strict schedule would help. I honestly don't really know where a lot of the time goes. One of us (usually me) is on baby duty at a time and the other one does...mystery things.
-Our dog is pretty high needs too so that's also a factor (the 2x daily walks and weekend off leash hours are required, and she also needs a lot of playtime in the yard every day, where she needs close, ideally baby-free supervision because she barks at everything and everyone that walks by and constantly needs to be redirected).
-I am well-aware that we have a lot of issues, and that the option to leave exists. I am looking for practical or relationship-oriented advice should I choose not to use that option.
tl;dr: how can we get more daily cleaning done, without making the division of labour too unfair?
There’s a lot going on with your question, and it seems like your partner is not pulling his own weight AT ALL. As just one concrete example, he sleeps until has the opportunity to get 8hrs of uninterrupted sleep a night, you get 6-7hrs of broken sleep, and he sleeps in until 11am on the weekend? That would not be acceptable to me. Also, I understand mental health challenges - my wife and I both have them ourselves - but not even trying to seek treatment would also be a dealbreaker for me.
Since you’re looking for practical advice, I will say that my wife and I find it very helpful to explicitly divide up almost all of the household chores - this is something that we didn’t find necessary before kids, but it really helps us both be happier with our division of labor. We both feel like the division is fair, and it makes it very clear cut who is responsible when something needs to happen. I find it much easier to ignore thing that are her responsibility, because even if it’s (IMO) out of hand, I know she’s going to be the one to have to deal with it, and I can do my chores however I see fit.
posted by maleficent at 1:34 PM on August 3, 2022 [31 favorites]
Since you’re looking for practical advice, I will say that my wife and I find it very helpful to explicitly divide up almost all of the household chores - this is something that we didn’t find necessary before kids, but it really helps us both be happier with our division of labor. We both feel like the division is fair, and it makes it very clear cut who is responsible when something needs to happen. I find it much easier to ignore thing that are her responsibility, because even if it’s (IMO) out of hand, I know she’s going to be the one to have to deal with it, and I can do my chores however I see fit.
posted by maleficent at 1:34 PM on August 3, 2022 [31 favorites]
Also for meals, use one those bibs with a pocket or eat outside when you can.
posted by chaiminda at 1:34 PM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 1:34 PM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
I read through your question, and maybe I missed it but I didn't see any indication that you've tried doing a fixed division of labour: you sit down together with a list of chores and roughly how often they need to be done (daily, weekly, etc.) and explicitly divide them up between the two of you—he washes dishes, you walk the dog in the mornings, he does so in the evenings, and so forth. For tasks that don't need to be done daily, spread them out over the week (i.e., vacuum on Mondays, clean the bathroom on Tuesdays, etc.)
The trick, of course, will be sticking with it; and it will probably need to be renegotiated periodically. But if it works, you'll know what needs to be done, know what your partner is doing during "mystery time", and set well-defined expectations of each other.
posted by Johnny Assay at 1:37 PM on August 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
The trick, of course, will be sticking with it; and it will probably need to be renegotiated periodically. But if it works, you'll know what needs to be done, know what your partner is doing during "mystery time", and set well-defined expectations of each other.
posted by Johnny Assay at 1:37 PM on August 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
Also also, could you night wean without sleep training? Just cuddle baby back to sleep instead of nursing? Sometimes that leads to longer stretches of sleep.
posted by chaiminda at 1:37 PM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 1:37 PM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
- For the time being, paper plates, plastic cups, utensils, etc.
- Put away all but one set of dishes for each person's use. That way it must be cleaned before being used again. At various times and for a variety of reasons, I've done this. Even if one person is doing all the washing it's often less washing, or if you have a dishwasher you can run a quick/half wash between meals. But one setting per person cuts down a lot on food-clutter.
- Roomba
- Three hours on the weekend with the dog?? Hire a dogwalker for all the dogwalking (weekdays, weekends).
- If you divvy chores up explicitly, alternate at most weekly and possibly fortnightly or monthly. It cuts down on the bickering that can come with the "handoff" of chores (but it doesn't stop the bickering if someone is under-attending their chores or has unreasonable expectations about doing them).
This stands out:
For OCD reasons, my partner refuses to have cleaners in the house occasionally (or even once), which I feel would really help us stay afloat. We've fought about this many times and he's not budging. He's also unwilling to accept any cleaning help from family/friends (his retired parents have offered). He's also not willing to participate in individual or couple's therapy, or get any kind of help whatsoever to manage his OCD. We're not rich at all but money isn't the issue, we can afford it.
I've had friends come tidy when I was under duress, but I can understand not wanting parents or friends to clean my house. However, I wonder if your partner's refusal is that it would make "public" his general unwillingness to find solutions to keep it clean himself.
There are two people in your relationship and one of them is vetoing a lot of proposals. Is there anything besides partner's upset to stop you from hiring clearers to come while he's out of the house? Anything preventing you from going to therapy? (A baby-friendly therapist allowed me to bring mine when he was your age.) Just as partner is vetoing reasonable solutions, you can in effect veto his vetoes.
When you have a baby and work and a dog and normal household needs, there's always something that's got to give. It sounds like you're the one doing the giving, and then he uses that to justify his own free time or abdication from pitching in.
posted by cocoagirl at 1:48 PM on August 3, 2022 [49 favorites]
- Put away all but one set of dishes for each person's use. That way it must be cleaned before being used again. At various times and for a variety of reasons, I've done this. Even if one person is doing all the washing it's often less washing, or if you have a dishwasher you can run a quick/half wash between meals. But one setting per person cuts down a lot on food-clutter.
- Roomba
- Three hours on the weekend with the dog?? Hire a dogwalker for all the dogwalking (weekdays, weekends).
- If you divvy chores up explicitly, alternate at most weekly and possibly fortnightly or monthly. It cuts down on the bickering that can come with the "handoff" of chores (but it doesn't stop the bickering if someone is under-attending their chores or has unreasonable expectations about doing them).
This stands out:
For OCD reasons, my partner refuses to have cleaners in the house occasionally (or even once), which I feel would really help us stay afloat. We've fought about this many times and he's not budging. He's also unwilling to accept any cleaning help from family/friends (his retired parents have offered). He's also not willing to participate in individual or couple's therapy, or get any kind of help whatsoever to manage his OCD. We're not rich at all but money isn't the issue, we can afford it.
I've had friends come tidy when I was under duress, but I can understand not wanting parents or friends to clean my house. However, I wonder if your partner's refusal is that it would make "public" his general unwillingness to find solutions to keep it clean himself.
There are two people in your relationship and one of them is vetoing a lot of proposals. Is there anything besides partner's upset to stop you from hiring clearers to come while he's out of the house? Anything preventing you from going to therapy? (A baby-friendly therapist allowed me to bring mine when he was your age.) Just as partner is vetoing reasonable solutions, you can in effect veto his vetoes.
When you have a baby and work and a dog and normal household needs, there's always something that's got to give. It sounds like you're the one doing the giving, and then he uses that to justify his own free time or abdication from pitching in.
posted by cocoagirl at 1:48 PM on August 3, 2022 [49 favorites]
I'd agree with set tasks for each parent, and remember that phase doesn't last forever -it's just a few more months until breastfeeding is behind you, and you will feel far more free, so if you can just hold on, you should be fine. You truly are in the most difficult stage.
We tried house cleaners, but never got past the 'cleaning for the cleaners' phase, so we dropped them, because it didn't lower any workload.
Maybe consider paper plates to lower the dish load.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:53 PM on August 3, 2022
We tried house cleaners, but never got past the 'cleaning for the cleaners' phase, so we dropped them, because it didn't lower any workload.
Maybe consider paper plates to lower the dish load.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:53 PM on August 3, 2022
I'll be honest - its hell. You will be cleaning all the time. Both of you could clean, cook, do dishes, change diapers and neither of you would be able to tell...
Your husband's language is problematic... You can't have 40-60 or 60-40 work distribution and then him saying he's doing all of X and that be an accurate grounded in reality statement. He needs to take a few moments and think both about his choice of words and what fair labor distribution looks like - and it sounds like he needs to give a little into reality (point below)
The best investment for a any place you live - whether it was a small apartment or a house - that my wife and I ever made was a bi-weekly cleaning service. I didn't want it, my wife did. I didn't want it because I was concerned that we couldn't afford it - and there were points where we stopped services because we couldn't... but - the reality is - that if you live in a place of pure mental torture because there is nothing clean and nothing getting done about fixing it - there's a breaking point. This is a problem that money can help solve - and people are going to get in and touch stuff and make him feel his OCD - but it will finish with the two of you having a house that you aren't actively panicking in. If he can't take them physically being in the apartment at the same time - then you all go for a scheduled walk for two hours - maybe in target because that's where you'll find you spend a lot of time when you are a new parent.
Having cleaners take a single pass every two weeks at your house helps you keep things in order. it gives you a reset. it gives you a way to improve your sanity. It forces you to wash your sheets and to have a second set of clean ones folded and ready for them. You wind up doing a 15-minute pre-cleaner sweep to make the house presentable for cleaners (no really). With that said, my desk is 100% off limits for our cleaners, but it is way easier for me to maintain because every thing else around it is maintained.
Dishes got/get done sooner, because we don't have the other stress of things we have to clean. I don't have to worry about a dirty toilet. My stovetop is neat (though I do do a better job than the cleaners on that front, usually on Sunday morning). We put stuff away - because Thursday morning the cleaners come and we have to have this stuff put away before then. Seriously - this forces you to get your shit together as a family - and it gets way worse once your kid starts brining their own toys into the mess.
posted by Nanukthedog at 1:53 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
Your husband's language is problematic... You can't have 40-60 or 60-40 work distribution and then him saying he's doing all of X and that be an accurate grounded in reality statement. He needs to take a few moments and think both about his choice of words and what fair labor distribution looks like - and it sounds like he needs to give a little into reality (point below)
The best investment for a any place you live - whether it was a small apartment or a house - that my wife and I ever made was a bi-weekly cleaning service. I didn't want it, my wife did. I didn't want it because I was concerned that we couldn't afford it - and there were points where we stopped services because we couldn't... but - the reality is - that if you live in a place of pure mental torture because there is nothing clean and nothing getting done about fixing it - there's a breaking point. This is a problem that money can help solve - and people are going to get in and touch stuff and make him feel his OCD - but it will finish with the two of you having a house that you aren't actively panicking in. If he can't take them physically being in the apartment at the same time - then you all go for a scheduled walk for two hours - maybe in target because that's where you'll find you spend a lot of time when you are a new parent.
Having cleaners take a single pass every two weeks at your house helps you keep things in order. it gives you a reset. it gives you a way to improve your sanity. It forces you to wash your sheets and to have a second set of clean ones folded and ready for them. You wind up doing a 15-minute pre-cleaner sweep to make the house presentable for cleaners (no really). With that said, my desk is 100% off limits for our cleaners, but it is way easier for me to maintain because every thing else around it is maintained.
Dishes got/get done sooner, because we don't have the other stress of things we have to clean. I don't have to worry about a dirty toilet. My stovetop is neat (though I do do a better job than the cleaners on that front, usually on Sunday morning). We put stuff away - because Thursday morning the cleaners come and we have to have this stuff put away before then. Seriously - this forces you to get your shit together as a family - and it gets way worse once your kid starts brining their own toys into the mess.
posted by Nanukthedog at 1:53 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
By what you've written here, your partner may indeed be handling 50%-ish of the cleaning load, but they are not handling 50% of the mental load... or the compromise load.
When you have a tiny baby, some things just have to give. I like the suggestion of the grandparents watching the baby so you can clean, and of hiring a dog walker. I also like the suggestion that you consider going to therapy yourself, since your partner refuses.
posted by woodvine at 1:55 PM on August 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
When you have a tiny baby, some things just have to give. I like the suggestion of the grandparents watching the baby so you can clean, and of hiring a dog walker. I also like the suggestion that you consider going to therapy yourself, since your partner refuses.
posted by woodvine at 1:55 PM on August 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
- If you divvy chores up explicitly, alternate at most weekly and possibly fortnightly or monthly. It cuts down on the bickering that can come with the "handoff" of chores (but it doesn't stop the bickering if someone is under-attending their chores or has unreasonable expectations about doing them).
To be clear, when I say that my wife and I divide up chores, part of what makes it successful for us is that there is no back and forth. For example, I do all the laundry. If I don't do laundry for a while and it piles up, I'm the one who has to deal with the pile.
posted by maleficent at 2:06 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
To be clear, when I say that my wife and I divide up chores, part of what makes it successful for us is that there is no back and forth. For example, I do all the laundry. If I don't do laundry for a while and it piles up, I'm the one who has to deal with the pile.
posted by maleficent at 2:06 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
I have lots of thoughts but not a lot of time so I may return later. Initially, I want to say, give yourself a break. This is all very hard stuff.
I find it interesting your partner has germ aversion but feeds kiddo on the floor. I am curious how that doesn't give him cognitive dissonance.
Simplify as much as you can. I am a hardcore minimalist (ADHD plus autism with ADHD/autistic partner. My partner is more disorganized and clutter gives me a meltdown so I take the lead on this. I cull as much as I can so we have the bare minimum. If you only have 4 glasses you can't have 10 glasses stacked in the kitchen. If you only have 10 shirts you can't wait to do laundry til it's a month of stuff which makes it a huge ordeal.
I read "How to Not Hate Your Husband After Kids." I attempted to engage partner directly in chore wars discussions but he was always super defensive. I may have resorted to listening to the audiobook version of this book within earshot. Might seem passive aggressive but I needed him to hear the material somehow and he wouldn't be receptive in a more direct way. The book is about otherwise "woke" men in cishet relationships becoming regressive in the division of labor once kids come along and how to negotiate that.
I hear good things about the Fair Play system of dividing chores. It is a way to outsource it to a concrete, physical experience that makes the invisible visible. It's also got an important step of agreeing to what standards will be used for that category. If we are both ok with only mopping once a month then ok. It gets you talking about stuff that is often unspoken, assumed as universal truth, and then causes resentment when the other person handles it differently.
Breastfeeding is work. That isn't leisure and should not be counted as such. Partner should be feeding you when you feed the baby. Or I saw on here when I was early in the process this idea that partner does all possible outputs since I was the only one doing the inputs. That means partner gets up for middle of the night diaper changes. Etc.
You should get one weekend day to sleep in. Each of you gets one. You can pump enough for a bottle feeding here and there so you can sleep through when you'd otherwise have to breastfeed. Partner can do it.
I agree to night wean if possible; at that age the overnight nutrition is not critical.
Breastfeeding hormones make women light sleepers even if you weren't already - and women actually need more sleep than men do. Will your partner believe science? Because science says just because he is tired and can fall asleep easily and sleep through things does not mean he "needs" it more. This one still upsets me - he can fall asleep so fast, while my mind is racing, and if I dump all the mental load out onto a list he has to share, then it's much easier for me to sleep too, so we have worked on that more but even then, it's harder for me. My partner actually lets me sleep in both weekend days because I cannot nap, and he can nap anywhere, so it's easy for him to make up some sleep later that day.
If my partner had not made an effort to pull his weight I would have considered switching to formula so we could divide that task more evenly. He did enough during my breastfeeding period that I didn't feel that was necessary.
One thing I see recommended is to share cleaning time - like both of you doing it at once so you both know emotionally that it's "fair." 20 minutes before dinner, 20 minutes after dinner, all hands on deck. Baby can be in a baby carrier if you have one. You can do almost anything wearing your child and it's super convenient. If he is worried leaving the child unattended then he can be the one that wears the child while cleaning.
And during that 20 minutes nobody is allowed to sit down or get on a device. If he "suddenly has to poop" then the clock stops until he is done and you get to rest somehow until he comes back. Then he comes back and you cheerfully say "ok, we just have 12 minutes left now" or whatever was left when you stopped the clock. Cheerfully neutralizing this sort of b.s. causes less tension than having a big discussion about it, I've found.
Minimalism and streamlining the schedule have been the biggest help. Counseling too, for the relationship. Outsourcing where you can. Meal kits simplify dinner. In your case I'd look into hiring a dog walker so that your partner cannot use that as his time suck.
I am lucky, my partner accepts that he has executive functioning issues and does not argue when I tell him if I have to manage and organize everything then I also get to delegate, therefore he may end up with more concrete tasks to compensate for the brain space I am using to figure out what needs to get done. I really hate having to prompt him but if he is willing to do 20 isolated tidying things to my 3 things it's ok on balance. Usually I designate as much as I can then come back and "finish" as there is inevitably a lot that he "doesn't see."
Does your partner happen to care about guests' opinions? Sometimes I plan to have visitors specifically so I can see my partner give the house a real solid cleaning, as that's about the only time he truly "sees" everything.
Oh, and if partner won't pre-clean his things then you don't have to clean-clean them. "Honey I would love to make this smoother for both of us but I need you to contribute by taking 30 seconds to prep the dishes so they are not so time consuming to clean. To help you remember, I will stop handling your dishes until you get the hang of this new habit since I know it will save us both time later."
Another point, for us the metric is leisure time. Do I have as much as he does? Factoring in sleep needs, do I have as much as he does? If I am using my downtime to order groceries, think of the schedule for the week, order new clothing for kiddo, etc that does not count as leisure time. Mental load is labor.
But I hate to break it to you, my child is entering kindergarten and I am still lucky to get 1.5-2 hours of personal adult time once kid goes to bed unless I sacrifice sleep. And that's even with factoring in a rule for kiddo of "I don't care if you actually go to sleep now but you are going to hang out in your room until you're ready to sleep." I have to use that 1.5-2 hours for cleaning, hobbies, self-care, couple time, social time, etc. It's just hard. We each get a chunk of time on the weekends to do whatever we need to do for ourselves.
Final advice unless/until I get time to circle back: When you're NOT fighting about it, initiate lots of conversations about chores in the family of origin, what was done, how it was done, how you each felt about it at the time and how you feel about it now. A LOT of this shit is basically unconscious programming popping up in daily life. The more we talk about it, the more we raise our own awareness of what is operating behind the scenes and the easier it is to not take it personally.
posted by crunchy potato at 2:08 PM on August 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
I find it interesting your partner has germ aversion but feeds kiddo on the floor. I am curious how that doesn't give him cognitive dissonance.
Simplify as much as you can. I am a hardcore minimalist (ADHD plus autism with ADHD/autistic partner. My partner is more disorganized and clutter gives me a meltdown so I take the lead on this. I cull as much as I can so we have the bare minimum. If you only have 4 glasses you can't have 10 glasses stacked in the kitchen. If you only have 10 shirts you can't wait to do laundry til it's a month of stuff which makes it a huge ordeal.
I read "How to Not Hate Your Husband After Kids." I attempted to engage partner directly in chore wars discussions but he was always super defensive. I may have resorted to listening to the audiobook version of this book within earshot. Might seem passive aggressive but I needed him to hear the material somehow and he wouldn't be receptive in a more direct way. The book is about otherwise "woke" men in cishet relationships becoming regressive in the division of labor once kids come along and how to negotiate that.
I hear good things about the Fair Play system of dividing chores. It is a way to outsource it to a concrete, physical experience that makes the invisible visible. It's also got an important step of agreeing to what standards will be used for that category. If we are both ok with only mopping once a month then ok. It gets you talking about stuff that is often unspoken, assumed as universal truth, and then causes resentment when the other person handles it differently.
Breastfeeding is work. That isn't leisure and should not be counted as such. Partner should be feeding you when you feed the baby. Or I saw on here when I was early in the process this idea that partner does all possible outputs since I was the only one doing the inputs. That means partner gets up for middle of the night diaper changes. Etc.
You should get one weekend day to sleep in. Each of you gets one. You can pump enough for a bottle feeding here and there so you can sleep through when you'd otherwise have to breastfeed. Partner can do it.
I agree to night wean if possible; at that age the overnight nutrition is not critical.
Breastfeeding hormones make women light sleepers even if you weren't already - and women actually need more sleep than men do. Will your partner believe science? Because science says just because he is tired and can fall asleep easily and sleep through things does not mean he "needs" it more. This one still upsets me - he can fall asleep so fast, while my mind is racing, and if I dump all the mental load out onto a list he has to share, then it's much easier for me to sleep too, so we have worked on that more but even then, it's harder for me. My partner actually lets me sleep in both weekend days because I cannot nap, and he can nap anywhere, so it's easy for him to make up some sleep later that day.
If my partner had not made an effort to pull his weight I would have considered switching to formula so we could divide that task more evenly. He did enough during my breastfeeding period that I didn't feel that was necessary.
One thing I see recommended is to share cleaning time - like both of you doing it at once so you both know emotionally that it's "fair." 20 minutes before dinner, 20 minutes after dinner, all hands on deck. Baby can be in a baby carrier if you have one. You can do almost anything wearing your child and it's super convenient. If he is worried leaving the child unattended then he can be the one that wears the child while cleaning.
And during that 20 minutes nobody is allowed to sit down or get on a device. If he "suddenly has to poop" then the clock stops until he is done and you get to rest somehow until he comes back. Then he comes back and you cheerfully say "ok, we just have 12 minutes left now" or whatever was left when you stopped the clock. Cheerfully neutralizing this sort of b.s. causes less tension than having a big discussion about it, I've found.
Minimalism and streamlining the schedule have been the biggest help. Counseling too, for the relationship. Outsourcing where you can. Meal kits simplify dinner. In your case I'd look into hiring a dog walker so that your partner cannot use that as his time suck.
I am lucky, my partner accepts that he has executive functioning issues and does not argue when I tell him if I have to manage and organize everything then I also get to delegate, therefore he may end up with more concrete tasks to compensate for the brain space I am using to figure out what needs to get done. I really hate having to prompt him but if he is willing to do 20 isolated tidying things to my 3 things it's ok on balance. Usually I designate as much as I can then come back and "finish" as there is inevitably a lot that he "doesn't see."
Does your partner happen to care about guests' opinions? Sometimes I plan to have visitors specifically so I can see my partner give the house a real solid cleaning, as that's about the only time he truly "sees" everything.
Oh, and if partner won't pre-clean his things then you don't have to clean-clean them. "Honey I would love to make this smoother for both of us but I need you to contribute by taking 30 seconds to prep the dishes so they are not so time consuming to clean. To help you remember, I will stop handling your dishes until you get the hang of this new habit since I know it will save us both time later."
Another point, for us the metric is leisure time. Do I have as much as he does? Factoring in sleep needs, do I have as much as he does? If I am using my downtime to order groceries, think of the schedule for the week, order new clothing for kiddo, etc that does not count as leisure time. Mental load is labor.
But I hate to break it to you, my child is entering kindergarten and I am still lucky to get 1.5-2 hours of personal adult time once kid goes to bed unless I sacrifice sleep. And that's even with factoring in a rule for kiddo of "I don't care if you actually go to sleep now but you are going to hang out in your room until you're ready to sleep." I have to use that 1.5-2 hours for cleaning, hobbies, self-care, couple time, social time, etc. It's just hard. We each get a chunk of time on the weekends to do whatever we need to do for ourselves.
Final advice unless/until I get time to circle back: When you're NOT fighting about it, initiate lots of conversations about chores in the family of origin, what was done, how it was done, how you each felt about it at the time and how you feel about it now. A LOT of this shit is basically unconscious programming popping up in daily life. The more we talk about it, the more we raise our own awareness of what is operating behind the scenes and the easier it is to not take it personally.
posted by crunchy potato at 2:08 PM on August 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
Consider hiring a gentle sleep consultant if you don't want to sleep train. I have 2 low-sleep-needs babies and it is possible to get them in bed before 11. A good sleep consultant can help you.
Consider night weaning. Get dad to go in and resettle for a few nights. I did this around 15 months with my first and I was shocked that it worked - he was an awful sleeper and boob-obsessed but once he figured out he wasn't getting milk at night anymore, he stopped waking.
We use all-over bibs plus a silicone catcher bib. We then use cheap Ikea wash cloths to wash down baby and wipe the worst off surfaces quickly. They all get washed every night.
The simplest way we've found to make cleaning fair is both of us to do it at the same time until the basic daily tasks are done. We do this after both kids are in bed, or one of us works on it whilst the other is putting a kid to bed then we both finish together.
Throw stuff away. If you don't use it or need it, it's just one more thing to clean.
I don't have any advice on this part but the things that really stood out in your question as completely unfair are partner sleeping until 11 on weekends, having baby have snacks on the floor, and refusing a cleaner. I wish I knew how to help you make him see that these are completely unreasonable.
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 2:22 PM on August 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
Consider night weaning. Get dad to go in and resettle for a few nights. I did this around 15 months with my first and I was shocked that it worked - he was an awful sleeper and boob-obsessed but once he figured out he wasn't getting milk at night anymore, he stopped waking.
We use all-over bibs plus a silicone catcher bib. We then use cheap Ikea wash cloths to wash down baby and wipe the worst off surfaces quickly. They all get washed every night.
The simplest way we've found to make cleaning fair is both of us to do it at the same time until the basic daily tasks are done. We do this after both kids are in bed, or one of us works on it whilst the other is putting a kid to bed then we both finish together.
Throw stuff away. If you don't use it or need it, it's just one more thing to clean.
I don't have any advice on this part but the things that really stood out in your question as completely unfair are partner sleeping until 11 on weekends, having baby have snacks on the floor, and refusing a cleaner. I wish I knew how to help you make him see that these are completely unreasonable.
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 2:22 PM on August 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think there are very many alarming issues in your post (I am a parent, I am in a cis-het relationship with a spouse who is lovely in many ways but not always good at cleaning, and tasks are not evenly split, my house is not especially clean). These are the things I find especially concerning:
- partner refuses to have any cleaning help in the house, whether occasionally or even once, and whether family/friends or a professional
- not willing to participate in individual couples therapy or get any kind of help whatsoever
- **partner has substantial OCD issues that interfere fairly seriously with family life**
- partner does not clean up food waste after feeding baby and in general there seems to be some serious and gross messes (as opposed to clutter or just less clean than people might prefer)
- Your baby, who is above 12 months old has significant sleep issues (I get this, my child was and in some ways remains a bad sleeper, I also refused to sleep train) that interfere greatly with the quality of family life
I want to assert that unless some of the above changes, this problem is going to get worse and not better. Babies are more messy and much more difficult in many ways than small children, but small children make many many new kinds of messes (art projects, potty training) and are increasingly difficult to contain. They introduce new chaos and may sleep even less.
My suggestion is that you bring someone in to come clean up your house while your husband goes on his epic 3 hour dog park walk (The sleeping until 11 followed by a huge excursion every weekend is ... a lot). That you do this unilaterally and tell him you are going to and deal with the fallout. (I don't recommend unilateral decisions lightly.) If you can get someone to spend 2 hours helping with the worst of the messes, you might have a small amount of peace of mind. I would do this every week until you have it under control. In my opinion it's easier to keep a clean or semi-clean house from falling into squalor than it is to bring a house in squalor (or semi-squalor) into a state of cleanliness. Shift your efforts from the latter to the former.
A few other small suggestions:
- Try to find some routine and rhythm that works for you. I don't really know why laundry needs to be done daily, even with a messy baby. We do laundry on the weekend. It's part of our routine and we endeavor to do Saturday, if not then Sunday and if that's really doesn't happen, it is done on Monday evening.
- See if your cleaning help can help you develop some routines that make basic tidying easier for you. Some of this is about having the right equipment and systems where you need them. Some of it might be about having less stuff in general.
- Maybe in this season of life, modify some expectations both about how much free individual time you each have and how possible it is for things to be evenly balanced.
But really, the other stuff MUST improve. It's not sustainable to raise a child with a partner who is unable to perform basic feats of cleanliness around the house in any way because he is hampered by substantial and untreated OCD. It's also pretty important to be able to get outside help when you need it, and having a partner who is unable to do that puts you in a very precarious position. Also, I think your sleep hygiene with your baby needs improvement - 11pm bad time is really late, and I have had a late to bed late to rise baby too. Does your baby need more time outdoors? More gross motor play? (For us, cosleeping helped a lot, it's not for everyone.)
posted by vunder at 2:27 PM on August 3, 2022 [35 favorites]
- partner refuses to have any cleaning help in the house, whether occasionally or even once, and whether family/friends or a professional
- not willing to participate in individual couples therapy or get any kind of help whatsoever
- **partner has substantial OCD issues that interfere fairly seriously with family life**
- partner does not clean up food waste after feeding baby and in general there seems to be some serious and gross messes (as opposed to clutter or just less clean than people might prefer)
- Your baby, who is above 12 months old has significant sleep issues (I get this, my child was and in some ways remains a bad sleeper, I also refused to sleep train) that interfere greatly with the quality of family life
I want to assert that unless some of the above changes, this problem is going to get worse and not better. Babies are more messy and much more difficult in many ways than small children, but small children make many many new kinds of messes (art projects, potty training) and are increasingly difficult to contain. They introduce new chaos and may sleep even less.
My suggestion is that you bring someone in to come clean up your house while your husband goes on his epic 3 hour dog park walk (The sleeping until 11 followed by a huge excursion every weekend is ... a lot). That you do this unilaterally and tell him you are going to and deal with the fallout. (I don't recommend unilateral decisions lightly.) If you can get someone to spend 2 hours helping with the worst of the messes, you might have a small amount of peace of mind. I would do this every week until you have it under control. In my opinion it's easier to keep a clean or semi-clean house from falling into squalor than it is to bring a house in squalor (or semi-squalor) into a state of cleanliness. Shift your efforts from the latter to the former.
A few other small suggestions:
- Try to find some routine and rhythm that works for you. I don't really know why laundry needs to be done daily, even with a messy baby. We do laundry on the weekend. It's part of our routine and we endeavor to do Saturday, if not then Sunday and if that's really doesn't happen, it is done on Monday evening.
- See if your cleaning help can help you develop some routines that make basic tidying easier for you. Some of this is about having the right equipment and systems where you need them. Some of it might be about having less stuff in general.
- Maybe in this season of life, modify some expectations both about how much free individual time you each have and how possible it is for things to be evenly balanced.
But really, the other stuff MUST improve. It's not sustainable to raise a child with a partner who is unable to perform basic feats of cleanliness around the house in any way because he is hampered by substantial and untreated OCD. It's also pretty important to be able to get outside help when you need it, and having a partner who is unable to do that puts you in a very precarious position. Also, I think your sleep hygiene with your baby needs improvement - 11pm bad time is really late, and I have had a late to bed late to rise baby too. Does your baby need more time outdoors? More gross motor play? (For us, cosleeping helped a lot, it's not for everyone.)
posted by vunder at 2:27 PM on August 3, 2022 [35 favorites]
I'm going to nth the 'get rid of everything but one set of dishes per person.' That includes as much of the house as you can as it helps with general dirt/sweeping/vaccuuming.
I'm going to tweak your evening routine here:
I stop work at 5, usually breastfeed for ~15 minutes, walk the dog for ~30 minutes and then prep supper for ~30-60+ minutes (easiest meals possible, I'm just slow) while partner watches baby.
To:
- one partner walks the dog + baby while the other partner makes dinner (for us for that year dinner was - Mondays crockpot soup/chili + bread; Tuesdays leftovers + a bean/pasta salad (prepped on weekend, also was lunches); Wednesdays rotisserie chicken + bagged salad; Thursdays scrambled eggs and frozen vegetables and toast, or avocado toast and vegetables; Fridays we made homemade pizza on naan/pita bread; Saturdays and Sundays we varied or did bowls or stir fries.)
With that time savings, after dinner becomes:
- baby is worn or goes in exersaucer/jolly jumper/etc. with music and dancing while both parents spend 15 minutes doing the dishes/wiping things up/sweeping the kitchen
And I'm going to tweak your weekend routine to:
- each parent gets one weekend day to sleep in/relax until 11 am
- each parent does one dog park visit with baby in a stroller (invest in the rain/cold gear to do this, it's a lifesaver)
- other parent uses the dog park/baby walk time to deep clean for half the time of the walk, half the time to themselves
Also once the baby is in daycare we had a thing where one parent did the drop off and the other took a half hour at home to clean/fold laundry/etc. in the morning before work.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:39 PM on August 3, 2022 [27 favorites]
I'm going to tweak your evening routine here:
I stop work at 5, usually breastfeed for ~15 minutes, walk the dog for ~30 minutes and then prep supper for ~30-60+ minutes (easiest meals possible, I'm just slow) while partner watches baby.
To:
- one partner walks the dog + baby while the other partner makes dinner (for us for that year dinner was - Mondays crockpot soup/chili + bread; Tuesdays leftovers + a bean/pasta salad (prepped on weekend, also was lunches); Wednesdays rotisserie chicken + bagged salad; Thursdays scrambled eggs and frozen vegetables and toast, or avocado toast and vegetables; Fridays we made homemade pizza on naan/pita bread; Saturdays and Sundays we varied or did bowls or stir fries.)
With that time savings, after dinner becomes:
- baby is worn or goes in exersaucer/jolly jumper/etc. with music and dancing while both parents spend 15 minutes doing the dishes/wiping things up/sweeping the kitchen
And I'm going to tweak your weekend routine to:
- each parent gets one weekend day to sleep in/relax until 11 am
- each parent does one dog park visit with baby in a stroller (invest in the rain/cold gear to do this, it's a lifesaver)
- other parent uses the dog park/baby walk time to deep clean for half the time of the walk, half the time to themselves
Also once the baby is in daycare we had a thing where one parent did the drop off and the other took a half hour at home to clean/fold laundry/etc. in the morning before work.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:39 PM on August 3, 2022 [27 favorites]
I'm a mom of a three year old with vivid memories of the new baby days. Sorry, but your system of constraints has no solution. Something has to give.
For us, we started having cleaners once every two weeks after the baby was born. It's great. We don't "clean for the cleaners." Not one bit. We found cleaners who can deal with our natural state and make it shine.
We also have two Roombas, one that vacuums and one that mops. Can't live without them. I bought the first as a wedding gift to ourselves and it's done a lot to help our marriage. Perhaps the vacuuming one can help with the Cheerio crumbs?
Can you afford babysitters (or ask family) to give you both a break? You can clean while the baby is watched, and also, many babysitters are willing to help with chores (wiping counters, cleaning baby food messes on their watch, folding laundry, dishes, taking out the trash). Perhaps that's one way to sneak in outside cleaning by your husband -- it's not an "official" cleaner after all.
We didn't sleep train the first year either, but I started denying feeds around 15 months. Is that a possibility for you? No CIO alone in the crib or anything. I held the baby and soothed without feeding. Dropped one feed per week or two. It was brutal at the time because soothing a baby that's mad there's no food is harder than just feeding, but it paid off because she did end up sleeping through that feed. She didn't sleep through until 2, but at least the wake-ups were limited to once a night. And if there's no feeding involved, your husband has no excuse for not taking over some of the wake-ups.
posted by redlines at 3:23 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
For us, we started having cleaners once every two weeks after the baby was born. It's great. We don't "clean for the cleaners." Not one bit. We found cleaners who can deal with our natural state and make it shine.
We also have two Roombas, one that vacuums and one that mops. Can't live without them. I bought the first as a wedding gift to ourselves and it's done a lot to help our marriage. Perhaps the vacuuming one can help with the Cheerio crumbs?
Can you afford babysitters (or ask family) to give you both a break? You can clean while the baby is watched, and also, many babysitters are willing to help with chores (wiping counters, cleaning baby food messes on their watch, folding laundry, dishes, taking out the trash). Perhaps that's one way to sneak in outside cleaning by your husband -- it's not an "official" cleaner after all.
We didn't sleep train the first year either, but I started denying feeds around 15 months. Is that a possibility for you? No CIO alone in the crib or anything. I held the baby and soothed without feeding. Dropped one feed per week or two. It was brutal at the time because soothing a baby that's mad there's no food is harder than just feeding, but it paid off because she did end up sleeping through that feed. She didn't sleep through until 2, but at least the wake-ups were limited to once a night. And if there's no feeding involved, your husband has no excuse for not taking over some of the wake-ups.
posted by redlines at 3:23 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's maybe trivially stupid, but without detailing issues with your partner (TL;DR, I'm on the "he's being unfair" side)... Do you have a splat mat, or otherwise waterproof mat/cloth for places where your baby eats? We kept one under the high chair, but you could also make it a condition that if anyone wants to feed the baby any food anywhere, then baby goes on a mat first.
When the little one is done eating, or off to the next activity, the mat gets rolled up and shaken out (ideally outside, but realistically over the sink works too.). If it's really messy it's tossed in the laundry. Meaningfully easier than a vacuum or mop.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 3:42 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
When the little one is done eating, or off to the next activity, the mat gets rolled up and shaken out (ideally outside, but realistically over the sink works too.). If it's really messy it's tossed in the laundry. Meaningfully easier than a vacuum or mop.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 3:42 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
My baby was also a tricky sleeper, and my partner had illness issues that prevented equitable helping. Some things that made a difference:
- Night-weaning the wake ups by substituting nursing for a straw cup of water. Baby slept longer, better, was less fussy. (Baby still nursed to sleep and first thing in the morning.)
- Consolidating two naps into one longer nap.
- 1 night a week takeout/delivery dinner and use the time savings to clean up or do laundry.
- Feed baby in the high chair and leave them in there till the plates are cleared and the floor underneath has been swept. Remove baby, wash their hands, set them down to play. Wipe the tray/table.
- More family fun to build positive memories and a sense of happiness.
I am not recommending this, but just realistically, I did not have "free time" for just myself till my kid was around 5. I used the time when kid was occupied/asleep to do the chores.
posted by xo at 3:47 PM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
- Night-weaning the wake ups by substituting nursing for a straw cup of water. Baby slept longer, better, was less fussy. (Baby still nursed to sleep and first thing in the morning.)
- Consolidating two naps into one longer nap.
- 1 night a week takeout/delivery dinner and use the time savings to clean up or do laundry.
- Feed baby in the high chair and leave them in there till the plates are cleared and the floor underneath has been swept. Remove baby, wash their hands, set them down to play. Wipe the tray/table.
- More family fun to build positive memories and a sense of happiness.
I am not recommending this, but just realistically, I did not have "free time" for just myself till my kid was around 5. I used the time when kid was occupied/asleep to do the chores.
posted by xo at 3:47 PM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
3 kids in 3 years. 3 kids under the age of 3.
Some thoughts:
Fair does not mean equal and equal does not imply fair. Once we stopped keeping close track of who did what and how long it took, things went much smoother. It is not a competition or a punishment. It is life.
1.5 hours of free time a day as xo pointed out is in my opinion your problem. Sure, you want to build in self care time, but there are sacrifices to that. Sounds like your sacrifice is cleaning.
We had several general rules. Cook doesn't clean. While one parent did bath time, the other did chores. Bath is 20 minutes. Same amount of time to walk the dog. We would also alternate weeks. Meaning, one week I would have clean up/chores and wife would have bath and books. The next week we would swap. Another rule, and we did a lot of sleep training, was, You wake 'em, you take 'em. It was always easier and of shorter time we addressed any issue right away. Bring the dishes over from the table and put them in the dishwasher, not on the counter for later. There is no later. If you don't want to wash dishes, get paper plates and cups, etc.
Our pediatrician gave us some great advice. He said, "Remember, this it the baby's first time too. They do not know if you are doing it "right" or "wrong". You will make mistakes. Correct them and move on."
This is all about expectations. How clean do each of you expect the home to be and how much do you each expect the other to do. Negotiate that and the rest falls into place.
If hand washing is an issue, wear disposable gloves. Change them whenever he thinks you should be washing them.
He sleeps until 11am on the weekends and then takes the dog to the park in the afternoon for 1.5 hours? Lol. If I did that, when I got back from the park, the locks would have been changed.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:29 PM on August 3, 2022 [17 favorites]
Some thoughts:
Fair does not mean equal and equal does not imply fair. Once we stopped keeping close track of who did what and how long it took, things went much smoother. It is not a competition or a punishment. It is life.
1.5 hours of free time a day as xo pointed out is in my opinion your problem. Sure, you want to build in self care time, but there are sacrifices to that. Sounds like your sacrifice is cleaning.
We had several general rules. Cook doesn't clean. While one parent did bath time, the other did chores. Bath is 20 minutes. Same amount of time to walk the dog. We would also alternate weeks. Meaning, one week I would have clean up/chores and wife would have bath and books. The next week we would swap. Another rule, and we did a lot of sleep training, was, You wake 'em, you take 'em. It was always easier and of shorter time we addressed any issue right away. Bring the dishes over from the table and put them in the dishwasher, not on the counter for later. There is no later. If you don't want to wash dishes, get paper plates and cups, etc.
Our pediatrician gave us some great advice. He said, "Remember, this it the baby's first time too. They do not know if you are doing it "right" or "wrong". You will make mistakes. Correct them and move on."
This is all about expectations. How clean do each of you expect the home to be and how much do you each expect the other to do. Negotiate that and the rest falls into place.
If hand washing is an issue, wear disposable gloves. Change them whenever he thinks you should be washing them.
He sleeps until 11am on the weekends and then takes the dog to the park in the afternoon for 1.5 hours? Lol. If I did that, when I got back from the park, the locks would have been changed.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:29 PM on August 3, 2022 [17 favorites]
Breastfeeding is not being counted as labour in this equation but BREASTFEEDING IS LABOUR. I am also actively breastfeeding so I know this very acutely and presently. He needs to clean while you breastfeed. He is getting 8 hours of sleep to your 5 and letting you do 60% of the housework? I would absolutely go nuclear.
Just want to make sure it's said outright again that this person is not remotely pulling his weight. He does NOT do anything close to 40% of the labour based just on what you've written.
I think you should send him out of the house (on a pleasant 1.5 dog walk perhaps, the nerve!) and hire a cleaner while he's gone. Lie about it. And take the money out of his account.
For the floors: Go to the thrift shop and buy 5 cheap secondhand twin bedsheets. Choose colours that are close to your floor / match your decor / have patterns to hide stains. Cut the sheets in half to make big squarish cotton panels. Put one under the high chair. When it gets gross (2-3 days?), swipe it around to get any wet mess, then chuck it into your kitchen laundry and replace it with a clean one.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 4:51 PM on August 3, 2022 [34 favorites]
Just want to make sure it's said outright again that this person is not remotely pulling his weight. He does NOT do anything close to 40% of the labour based just on what you've written.
I think you should send him out of the house (on a pleasant 1.5 dog walk perhaps, the nerve!) and hire a cleaner while he's gone. Lie about it. And take the money out of his account.
For the floors: Go to the thrift shop and buy 5 cheap secondhand twin bedsheets. Choose colours that are close to your floor / match your decor / have patterns to hide stains. Cut the sheets in half to make big squarish cotton panels. Put one under the high chair. When it gets gross (2-3 days?), swipe it around to get any wet mess, then chuck it into your kitchen laundry and replace it with a clean one.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 4:51 PM on August 3, 2022 [34 favorites]
I don’t have kids so I won’t weigh in, just point you to someone who does and speaks on this: KC Davis aka Domestic Blisters aka Struggle Care. She talks a lot about making things manageable and functional for you, and removing the moral associations with the appearance of one’s house as well as practical recommendations. You may find the TikToks to be an easy way to engage without having to read a whole book, or fully engage with something- something to just sneak in while you’re on the toilet.
posted by raccoon409 at 5:58 PM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by raccoon409 at 5:58 PM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
People have already said many good things about the relationship issues, but I will say this: my ex-husband also refused to have even occasional cleaning help in the house. I basically snuck in a cleaning lady occasionally, both when I was pregnant and subsequently. He never found out. It helped.
posted by virve at 6:34 PM on August 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by virve at 6:34 PM on August 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Your partner not being in consistent treatment for their mental health problems is the biggest red flag in this post (and I say this as the one in my relationship Who Likes Things Clean, and has some severe mental health problems that have not always been consistently addressed, though the two are unrelated in my case). Ultimatums surrounding therapy were necessary in my marriage, and I'm quite grateful both for me and my family, that they were judiciously leveled by my partner.
If this is not ironed out, it might not be this that separates you, but it could be trigger something else down the line. All the self care in the world won't make a dent in untreated mental illness.
Once partner goes back to work in 3 months; hire a cleaner unilaterally. It may be easier to deal with the fallout from that, than to offer ultimatums around therapy. You know your partner better.
Everything else really just sounds like normal (maybe on the difficult-ish side of still normal) of being new parents. And it sucks. it is not fun. It is a dirty place to live with a small one.
Since baby sleeps poorly, do ask a their pediatrician for help; do not be afraid to sob and bawl in the office to draw the point home. Sleep deprivation is outlawed under the geneva convention for a reason. Our well intentioned pediatrician looked at our raccoon eyes and pale shaky faces after zero full nights sleep 3 months in, and decided to look a little closer into our kid's sleep issues; he ended up having acid reflux and one medication (that he only took for like 6 months of his life) he slept like A BABAY right after, and grew out of it pretty quick. It was a miracle that makes an intense, huge, quantifiable, sanity saving difference.
Another possible track: If partner is willing, can you stay with family for a weekend, or you stay at a hotel for a weekend, with his only task to clean the domicile top to bottom in excruciating detail? Keeping a clean place clean is almost always easier than cleaning up a place out of sorts.
posted by furnace.heart at 6:49 PM on August 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
If this is not ironed out, it might not be this that separates you, but it could be trigger something else down the line. All the self care in the world won't make a dent in untreated mental illness.
Once partner goes back to work in 3 months; hire a cleaner unilaterally. It may be easier to deal with the fallout from that, than to offer ultimatums around therapy. You know your partner better.
Everything else really just sounds like normal (maybe on the difficult-ish side of still normal) of being new parents. And it sucks. it is not fun. It is a dirty place to live with a small one.
Since baby sleeps poorly, do ask a their pediatrician for help; do not be afraid to sob and bawl in the office to draw the point home. Sleep deprivation is outlawed under the geneva convention for a reason. Our well intentioned pediatrician looked at our raccoon eyes and pale shaky faces after zero full nights sleep 3 months in, and decided to look a little closer into our kid's sleep issues; he ended up having acid reflux and one medication (that he only took for like 6 months of his life) he slept like A BABAY right after, and grew out of it pretty quick. It was a miracle that makes an intense, huge, quantifiable, sanity saving difference.
Another possible track: If partner is willing, can you stay with family for a weekend, or you stay at a hotel for a weekend, with his only task to clean the domicile top to bottom in excruciating detail? Keeping a clean place clean is almost always easier than cleaning up a place out of sorts.
posted by furnace.heart at 6:49 PM on August 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
Parent to parent, I'm sorry this is so hard. I want to avoid rehashing the many solid observations and suggestions above, so I will stick to three thoughts:
1. I think you and your partner should both consider whether, if your baby had a medical condition that was adversely affecting her and the family's quality of life, you would refuse categorically to investigate or try any and all treatments. If the answer is "we wouldn't," why is it acceptable for your husband to refuse to pursue treatment for his OCD?
2. If you have the money but outsourcing the actual housecleaning is, at least for now, a nonstarter, there are a lot of other items I can see in your background that could be outsourced to free up some time and energy for that. Within your constraints, you could still consider a dog-walker or doggy daycare to reduce the time taken up by the pupper, a meal service or chef to reduce cooking (and likely dishes), and/or takeaway laundry service.
3. It sounds like you feel that you need to let go of some of the scorekeeping, which I agree can feel terrible, and of needing the validation of your partner admitting his expectations on you were/are too high. Perversely, I think it may help to consider that if your husband *really* thought he were behaving fairly, he would not be making any of the multiple defensive comments you mention. For now, maybe tell yourself you're letting go (at least temporarily) because keeping up is going to mean you're a sore winner: he is so obviously not going to fare well in a true tally and accounting of the past 13 months that it would make moving forward impossible, and it sounds like you want to find a way to do that.
posted by LadyInWaiting at 7:07 PM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
1. I think you and your partner should both consider whether, if your baby had a medical condition that was adversely affecting her and the family's quality of life, you would refuse categorically to investigate or try any and all treatments. If the answer is "we wouldn't," why is it acceptable for your husband to refuse to pursue treatment for his OCD?
2. If you have the money but outsourcing the actual housecleaning is, at least for now, a nonstarter, there are a lot of other items I can see in your background that could be outsourced to free up some time and energy for that. Within your constraints, you could still consider a dog-walker or doggy daycare to reduce the time taken up by the pupper, a meal service or chef to reduce cooking (and likely dishes), and/or takeaway laundry service.
3. It sounds like you feel that you need to let go of some of the scorekeeping, which I agree can feel terrible, and of needing the validation of your partner admitting his expectations on you were/are too high. Perversely, I think it may help to consider that if your husband *really* thought he were behaving fairly, he would not be making any of the multiple defensive comments you mention. For now, maybe tell yourself you're letting go (at least temporarily) because keeping up is going to mean you're a sore winner: he is so obviously not going to fare well in a true tally and accounting of the past 13 months that it would make moving forward impossible, and it sounds like you want to find a way to do that.
posted by LadyInWaiting at 7:07 PM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think this might just be something I need to get over but I'm not sure how to stop fixating on fairness and hypocrisy (this is a common issue for me in general) - I know many people do fine with a much less equal division of labour than we have, but it still really bothers me.
I hope you won't feel like people are piling on about the relationship issues, but I want to push back on this point specifically. The setup you describe sounds really unfair, and I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to be told that actually you are the problem and that's it's unthinkable for him to do more.
Just as another data point in the thread, while I was breastfeeding the chores division in my household was nowhere close to half and half. My husband is not a saint or a superhero. Doing 75% of the household chores just made the most sense to him based on how much time and energy it took for me to feed the baby with my body.
Like your partner, he is also the SAHP, and on the weekend he also likes to spend some time alone to recharge from the week. However, for him that translates to a couple of hours a day at most. Waking up at 11 and then taking off for most the afternoon would never happen in a million years.
Since you asked for advice, based on what I hear from other women I know who have partners like yours who feel like they are doing everything even in the face of overwhelming evidence that they are not, I think you might consider 1) doing less for your partner (e.g., stop watching the baby for 20 minutes so he can make a hot lunch) 2) refusing to engage with the "I do everything around here" bullshit. Just your description of your respective sleep situations is giving me flames-on-the-side-of-my-face energy.
I'm sorry you have to deal with this and hope that your partner get better.
posted by mustard seeds at 7:46 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
I hope you won't feel like people are piling on about the relationship issues, but I want to push back on this point specifically. The setup you describe sounds really unfair, and I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to be told that actually you are the problem and that's it's unthinkable for him to do more.
Just as another data point in the thread, while I was breastfeeding the chores division in my household was nowhere close to half and half. My husband is not a saint or a superhero. Doing 75% of the household chores just made the most sense to him based on how much time and energy it took for me to feed the baby with my body.
Like your partner, he is also the SAHP, and on the weekend he also likes to spend some time alone to recharge from the week. However, for him that translates to a couple of hours a day at most. Waking up at 11 and then taking off for most the afternoon would never happen in a million years.
Since you asked for advice, based on what I hear from other women I know who have partners like yours who feel like they are doing everything even in the face of overwhelming evidence that they are not, I think you might consider 1) doing less for your partner (e.g., stop watching the baby for 20 minutes so he can make a hot lunch) 2) refusing to engage with the "I do everything around here" bullshit. Just your description of your respective sleep situations is giving me flames-on-the-side-of-my-face energy.
I'm sorry you have to deal with this and hope that your partner get better.
posted by mustard seeds at 7:46 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
Regarding baby food - and into and beyond toddler-hood - put a large-ish baby blanket under seat. After meal, shake into trash, throw into washer to run with other clothing when a load is ready. Rinse, repeat. Keep lots of kitchen towels/flour sack towels around, use for immediate clean-up of all barf, poop, food, spills. Throw into washer immediately after dirtying to run with other clothing when a load is ready. Consider the same for couches, for tables, for bedspreads. This is something both partners can do, and makes for easy clean-up while you are in the "big mess" sage of life.
posted by Toddles at 7:58 PM on August 3, 2022
posted by Toddles at 7:58 PM on August 3, 2022
ETA: the reason I suggested those two things is that I have heard people say that refusing to do the work that their partners refuse to acknowledge eventually led to some productive discussions. Obviously you are not going to stop feeding your actual baby, but letting him live with the consequences of his refusal to do basic multitasking is probably more feasible.
Also, forgot to mention this but my husband also has issues with germaphobia. These reared their head during the newborn stage, but this was something we dealt with together. In other words, we would come to an agreement about what kind of behaviors felt reasonable to both of us. As you point out (when you said that you find this behavior very controlling), it's not okay for your partner to dictate rules to you and, in my view, even less for him to demand consequences for you for breaking his rules. If he feels that strongly, he can "go clean everywhere you touched since then," but I don't think he should get to control your behavior like this. Especially when he doesn't clean up after meals wtf!
Finally, this is largely besides the point, but one thing that helped both of us when we were in the "cleaning bottles every day" / "do we really have to sanitize bottles this often??" stage of life, I happened to read Ed Yong's book on microbes and it was very helpful for both of us to get some perspective on germs.
posted by mustard seeds at 8:03 PM on August 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
Also, forgot to mention this but my husband also has issues with germaphobia. These reared their head during the newborn stage, but this was something we dealt with together. In other words, we would come to an agreement about what kind of behaviors felt reasonable to both of us. As you point out (when you said that you find this behavior very controlling), it's not okay for your partner to dictate rules to you and, in my view, even less for him to demand consequences for you for breaking his rules. If he feels that strongly, he can "go clean everywhere you touched since then," but I don't think he should get to control your behavior like this. Especially when he doesn't clean up after meals wtf!
Finally, this is largely besides the point, but one thing that helped both of us when we were in the "cleaning bottles every day" / "do we really have to sanitize bottles this often??" stage of life, I happened to read Ed Yong's book on microbes and it was very helpful for both of us to get some perspective on germs.
posted by mustard seeds at 8:03 PM on August 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
Not directly related to question, but you need more sleep.
My small suggestion: Have partner do the nightime wakeups. It will be rough at first for both baby and partner. But soon baby will realize waking up at nighttime isn't worth it because there is no nursing. If possible, you should sleep somewhere where you can't hear baby. I am currently sleeping in the basement, and dada does night time wakeups for our 2 year old (who is into a once a night wakeup thing, dunno why). Then dada calls me on the phone at 6 or 7am to come take over the morning.
posted by stray at 8:12 PM on August 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
My small suggestion: Have partner do the nightime wakeups. It will be rough at first for both baby and partner. But soon baby will realize waking up at nighttime isn't worth it because there is no nursing. If possible, you should sleep somewhere where you can't hear baby. I am currently sleeping in the basement, and dada does night time wakeups for our 2 year old (who is into a once a night wakeup thing, dunno why). Then dada calls me on the phone at 6 or 7am to come take over the morning.
posted by stray at 8:12 PM on August 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Consider less cooking (and therefore less cleaning). Takeout, frozen foods, sandwiches and chips, can of soup.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:22 PM on August 3, 2022
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:22 PM on August 3, 2022
Wait, he sleeps in until 11 (and you have a baby!?), then goes off with the dog from 1-4, and after that he's "tired"?
You realise the weekend is when most of us with small kids have a fighting chance of getting ahead of keeping the house clean? Sounds like he's opted out of that entirely. Saturday or Sunday morning is a great time to get a really decent clean done. Sleeping in until 11am is a treat reserved exclusively for mother's /father's day, sorry
posted by tillsbury at 8:56 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
You realise the weekend is when most of us with small kids have a fighting chance of getting ahead of keeping the house clean? Sounds like he's opted out of that entirely. Saturday or Sunday morning is a great time to get a really decent clean done. Sleeping in until 11am is a treat reserved exclusively for mother's /father's day, sorry
posted by tillsbury at 8:56 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
It wouldn't be tenable in my house for either parent to sleep past 7am.
I don't know what 'sleep training' means to you, but it sounds like baby is lacking some foundational consistency about bedtime routine that for me would be a precursor to any sleep training. Baby needs a consistent process that could involve: singing songs, listening to songs, reading books, saying goodnight to various household objects, changing diaper, putting on pajamas, movements to various rooms or spaces, lights coming on or off, curtains being open or shut. The process happens in the same order at the same time every night, 11pm is too late.
Those are the two things that stuck out as the most promising ways to create the necessary time to keep the house clean.
posted by Kwine at 9:04 PM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't know what 'sleep training' means to you, but it sounds like baby is lacking some foundational consistency about bedtime routine that for me would be a precursor to any sleep training. Baby needs a consistent process that could involve: singing songs, listening to songs, reading books, saying goodnight to various household objects, changing diaper, putting on pajamas, movements to various rooms or spaces, lights coming on or off, curtains being open or shut. The process happens in the same order at the same time every night, 11pm is too late.
Those are the two things that stuck out as the most promising ways to create the necessary time to keep the house clean.
posted by Kwine at 9:04 PM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Advice from my therapist: one possible issue is that you are doing chores that your partner does not recognize as chores (because he never does them, doesn't consider them important, or both), and vice versa. Start by sitting down with him and write a list of what needs to be done and how often, without assigning one person to do it (therapist called it a "chores menu"). Agree to attempt to complete as many as are reasonable/possible to complete.
This may not solve the problem, of course, but if resentment lingers, at least the discussion around it can be completely factual and can start from a point that both partners have already agreed upon.
posted by rjacobs at 9:50 PM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
This may not solve the problem, of course, but if resentment lingers, at least the discussion around it can be completely factual and can start from a point that both partners have already agreed upon.
posted by rjacobs at 9:50 PM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Two things:
1. Starting this weekend, your partner gets one sleep-in and dog walk day and you get the other day. As others have said, you absolutely must split the weekend so that you also get some weekend rest.
-He has germs-focused OCD which he's unwilling to get any sort of treatment for, and this manifests as strict rules about how the chores can be done to avoid "contaminating" things (for example handwashing a million times a day after touching some things and before touching others, even halfway through cleaning tasks, cleaning only in an exact pattern, restrictions on where items can be moved that are often unclear to me, not allowing me to clean certain areas like toilets at all, etc etc). If any "rules" are broken there's angry panicked reaction of "go clean everywhere you touched since then". We also fight about this a lot since it feels very controlling to me, I find the excessive handwashing very difficult to tolerate sensory-wise, and I find it difficult-to-impossible to keep all the "rules" straight (which I believe is caused by ADHD or just being a non-mindreading human, and he believes is caused by me not caring about his feelings enough).
2. The rules about cleaning feel controlling to you because they are controlling. Since those rules matter so much to your partner, perhaps you should suggest a different kind of split: he becomes 100% responsible for all the cleaning. You do 100% of the baby feeding, getting food, cooking, etc.
My partner did most of the household chores when our kid was young because my ADHD made me messy, disorganised, and easily overwhelmed. I did most of the mental logistical and organising stuff (keeping track of the food we needed, bill paying, well-baby visits, dealing with childcare and preschool stuff, etc.). I made 99% of the then-obligatory phone calls, dealing with authorities of any sort, setting up play dates as our kid got older, putting together birthday parties, getting gifts for other kids' parties, etc.
One week he did all the dinner cooking and meal clean up after; I did it the next week. We tried having one person cook and the other clean, but that was annoying to him because I didn't tidy as quickly or well as he did. So this way felt better to both of us.
I wish you all the best in working out some kind of system that makes it easier to survive this early time with your baby. It was an incredibly challenging time for me as a mom. My youngest grandkid is about 18 months old and his visits wipe me out. My partner was always able to do some chores while also taking care of our baby. I was like your partner; I just couldn't do that. I didn't know how to do that.
My partner and I eventually split but not before he taught me something important: If two people come to an agreement that they are happy with, then it is fair. Fair is not about percentages. Fair is about both parties feeling mostly satisfied with the situation. My partner was satisfied doing most of the household choirs as long as he did not have to make phone calls and worry about a bunch of logistics. The way we split our labor wasn't necessarily ideal but it was fair enough for us. In the end, you just need to find something that feels "fair enough" to your and your partner.
Eventually there will be a reckoning between you and your partner over his OCD. His untreated illness will affect your child and not just you. Of course, you can't worry about that now. Right now you just need to get some rest. Please tell your partner ASAP that you need to start splitting weekends and enjoy your rest on on either this Saturday or Sunday.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:12 AM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
1. Starting this weekend, your partner gets one sleep-in and dog walk day and you get the other day. As others have said, you absolutely must split the weekend so that you also get some weekend rest.
-He has germs-focused OCD which he's unwilling to get any sort of treatment for, and this manifests as strict rules about how the chores can be done to avoid "contaminating" things (for example handwashing a million times a day after touching some things and before touching others, even halfway through cleaning tasks, cleaning only in an exact pattern, restrictions on where items can be moved that are often unclear to me, not allowing me to clean certain areas like toilets at all, etc etc). If any "rules" are broken there's angry panicked reaction of "go clean everywhere you touched since then". We also fight about this a lot since it feels very controlling to me, I find the excessive handwashing very difficult to tolerate sensory-wise, and I find it difficult-to-impossible to keep all the "rules" straight (which I believe is caused by ADHD or just being a non-mindreading human, and he believes is caused by me not caring about his feelings enough).
2. The rules about cleaning feel controlling to you because they are controlling. Since those rules matter so much to your partner, perhaps you should suggest a different kind of split: he becomes 100% responsible for all the cleaning. You do 100% of the baby feeding, getting food, cooking, etc.
My partner did most of the household chores when our kid was young because my ADHD made me messy, disorganised, and easily overwhelmed. I did most of the mental logistical and organising stuff (keeping track of the food we needed, bill paying, well-baby visits, dealing with childcare and preschool stuff, etc.). I made 99% of the then-obligatory phone calls, dealing with authorities of any sort, setting up play dates as our kid got older, putting together birthday parties, getting gifts for other kids' parties, etc.
One week he did all the dinner cooking and meal clean up after; I did it the next week. We tried having one person cook and the other clean, but that was annoying to him because I didn't tidy as quickly or well as he did. So this way felt better to both of us.
I wish you all the best in working out some kind of system that makes it easier to survive this early time with your baby. It was an incredibly challenging time for me as a mom. My youngest grandkid is about 18 months old and his visits wipe me out. My partner was always able to do some chores while also taking care of our baby. I was like your partner; I just couldn't do that. I didn't know how to do that.
My partner and I eventually split but not before he taught me something important: If two people come to an agreement that they are happy with, then it is fair. Fair is not about percentages. Fair is about both parties feeling mostly satisfied with the situation. My partner was satisfied doing most of the household choirs as long as he did not have to make phone calls and worry about a bunch of logistics. The way we split our labor wasn't necessarily ideal but it was fair enough for us. In the end, you just need to find something that feels "fair enough" to your and your partner.
Eventually there will be a reckoning between you and your partner over his OCD. His untreated illness will affect your child and not just you. Of course, you can't worry about that now. Right now you just need to get some rest. Please tell your partner ASAP that you need to start splitting weekends and enjoy your rest on on either this Saturday or Sunday.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:12 AM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Write down a list of all the tasks that need doing.
Then, write next to each task what happens if you don't do it
Then, assign a priority based on what happens if you don't do it
for example, "baby gets food poisoning because no clean baby bottles" = priority 1 (most urgent)
"people get skin rash from no clean nappies/clothes" = priority 2
"house looks messy" = priority 10
Then, from now on, no one does a task if there is a higher priority task waiting to be done.
eg No cleaning the shower if there are dirty dishes in the sink.
posted by carriage pulled by cassowaries at 2:51 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Then, write next to each task what happens if you don't do it
Then, assign a priority based on what happens if you don't do it
for example, "baby gets food poisoning because no clean baby bottles" = priority 1 (most urgent)
"people get skin rash from no clean nappies/clothes" = priority 2
"house looks messy" = priority 10
Then, from now on, no one does a task if there is a higher priority task waiting to be done.
eg No cleaning the shower if there are dirty dishes in the sink.
posted by carriage pulled by cassowaries at 2:51 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I mean, convincing him a cleaning service is nonnegotiable would be my first move. Our cleaners have saved more fights in our house than therapy ever could. Partly this is because my partner is a score keeper and I am not, and if I was inclined to keep score, it would be about completely different things. Like, he wants to know who did how many loads of laundry; I want to know who got more sleep.
Whether or not you can get him convinced of that, the best solution we found is to have less stuff. Dishes can’t pile up if you only have two sets (or use paper). Laundry can’t go for weeks if you only have six pair of underwear. Toys can’t be everywhere if you don’t have them (this may get way worse as kiddo gets bigger. Try and make a plan now).
It also helped us to talk about which things really bugged us. My partner is very annoyed by clutter. I am very annoyed by filth. He doesn’t see filth. I don’t see clutter. Those things take extra effort. So we plan around that. He declutters, I scrub. He’s annoyed if I don’t put away my laundry. I’m annoyed if he leaves food in the garbage disposal instead of running it. It took us years to work this out - and to understand that sometimes he is just going to forget to run the disposal and I can either be pissy about it or handle it in under 30 seconds. Sometimes marriage is running the disposal 🤷🏼♀️
posted by dpx.mfx at 3:04 AM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Whether or not you can get him convinced of that, the best solution we found is to have less stuff. Dishes can’t pile up if you only have two sets (or use paper). Laundry can’t go for weeks if you only have six pair of underwear. Toys can’t be everywhere if you don’t have them (this may get way worse as kiddo gets bigger. Try and make a plan now).
It also helped us to talk about which things really bugged us. My partner is very annoyed by clutter. I am very annoyed by filth. He doesn’t see filth. I don’t see clutter. Those things take extra effort. So we plan around that. He declutters, I scrub. He’s annoyed if I don’t put away my laundry. I’m annoyed if he leaves food in the garbage disposal instead of running it. It took us years to work this out - and to understand that sometimes he is just going to forget to run the disposal and I can either be pissy about it or handle it in under 30 seconds. Sometimes marriage is running the disposal 🤷🏼♀️
posted by dpx.mfx at 3:04 AM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm a new parent, as of a year ago. My partner and I are both neurotypical, generally healthy and well, and still struggle to keep the house in a reasonable state. So first of all, no shame for finding it difficult!
I think the main problem isn't a lack of routine or schedules or lists. It's that you're not tackling this as a team. It should be the both of you against the mess, not you against each other.
And the reason you're not tackling this as a team is that you're not living in the same reality. You're here, but he's in some kind of patriarchal world of delusion. I suspect so because I once lived there. Most men have, many men never leave.
In that world, expectations of domestic work start at zero. Any effort beyond that should be praised and appreciated, and if the praise (in words, affection, sex, etc) is lacking, then the effort will be too. Within that world, he's doing a fantastic job! What a feminist hero! I'm only kinda sarcastic - within that framework, he's doing more than his father ever did, perhaps more than his peers do. Of course he bristles at the idea that he's not doing enough - he's doing way more than he should be doing!
The trouble of course is that the rest of his family live in the real world. Which makes the solution very simple, and extremely difficult. Simple because it's straight forward - he needs to grow up. Difficult because it can only happen if he chooses to do so, and that's far from easy.
I'm not sure how to get him on board. I suspect that all the great ideas about lists and defined tasks will only work if he genuinely understands what 100% of the work looks like. If not, he'll grumble and do things poorly and you'll remain in the role of supervisor. (And when you complain it'll be proof that he can never do anything right, and if you want it done that way why don't you do it yourself?).
I hope I'm wrong. I may be - I'm just some dude on the internet. But if he really thinks he's doing 'everything', then he's going to need to wake up and live in the real world before he can be a genuine partner.
posted by twirlypen at 7:07 AM on August 4, 2022 [13 favorites]
I think the main problem isn't a lack of routine or schedules or lists. It's that you're not tackling this as a team. It should be the both of you against the mess, not you against each other.
And the reason you're not tackling this as a team is that you're not living in the same reality. You're here, but he's in some kind of patriarchal world of delusion. I suspect so because I once lived there. Most men have, many men never leave.
In that world, expectations of domestic work start at zero. Any effort beyond that should be praised and appreciated, and if the praise (in words, affection, sex, etc) is lacking, then the effort will be too. Within that world, he's doing a fantastic job! What a feminist hero! I'm only kinda sarcastic - within that framework, he's doing more than his father ever did, perhaps more than his peers do. Of course he bristles at the idea that he's not doing enough - he's doing way more than he should be doing!
The trouble of course is that the rest of his family live in the real world. Which makes the solution very simple, and extremely difficult. Simple because it's straight forward - he needs to grow up. Difficult because it can only happen if he chooses to do so, and that's far from easy.
I'm not sure how to get him on board. I suspect that all the great ideas about lists and defined tasks will only work if he genuinely understands what 100% of the work looks like. If not, he'll grumble and do things poorly and you'll remain in the role of supervisor. (And when you complain it'll be proof that he can never do anything right, and if you want it done that way why don't you do it yourself?).
I hope I'm wrong. I may be - I'm just some dude on the internet. But if he really thinks he's doing 'everything', then he's going to need to wake up and live in the real world before he can be a genuine partner.
posted by twirlypen at 7:07 AM on August 4, 2022 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you so much for all the thoughtful insights and advice. I'm still processing it all but wanted to clarify a few things since I was overly focused on my resentments and not the work that my partner does, and accidentally made him sound like a real slacker which isn't the case at all! If anything I'm the slacker when it comes to cleaning specifically.
He usually does actually do much more cleaning work than me these days, especially now that I'm working during the day. The rough division I referred to includes all "useful work" for the family/home - the majority of mine is childcare. I think the people who brought up not valuing the work equally are bang on. He's the only one who ever cleans the toilets, takes out the garbage, sweeps/mops the floors, and vaccuums (for reasons - he's anxious about me handling the germy stuff, and insists on a precise order/avoiding some areas when cleaning the floors so it stresses me out and I avoid it, and the vaccuuming is a sensory trigger for me). He also does dishes and sometimes does other kitchen tidying before bed during the week (I do it on the weekends). When he cleans I'm always watching baby, and then I feel like we both did work but he feels like he did a bunch of cleaning while I did nothing. If we talk about it he does agree that the childcare is real work too, and agrees that I can't do much if any cleaning while I'm watching baby alone, but I think his "gut feeling" disagrees. I'm not sure how to resolve this - I think maybe I need to just hand him the baby more often and go clean things instead being the default caretaker, which I think he would be fine with, but I have a lot of ADHD-related trouble initiating/remembering to do things like that. We do have a few chores officially divided (him toilets/garbage/lawn stuff, me sinks) and I have trouble keeping up with even just the sinks - the old "out of sight out of mind" problem and I never seem to remember the task exists when I have the ability to hand off baby to him (I know this isn't an excuse but it's a huge struggle for me). I also had trouble with this pre-baby. Cleaning in general has always been really tough for me to keep on top of.
The sleep stuff is complicated. He had a more equal role for the first ~7 months when baby was a truly horrendous sleeper and we slept in shifts with each of us up half the night with her, which meant zero free time and also no cleaning time. We switched to our current arrangement because I'm much more efficient at settling her and it gives us the ability to have some free time, so it's not that he's unwilling to help at night, it just works better for us this way. And I don't really mind giving him unlimited sleep since sleep is important and it wouldn't give me more sleep if he slept less (I can't nap, I've tried), I'd just get more free time when what I have now is enough. Though point well taken that we may need to start setting him an alarm on the weekend so we can get cleaning done then. He also seems to need an unusually high amount of sleep to function and sleeps badly (e.g. sleeping 9-10h on weekends, or napping for an hour and still feeling tired after a night he's slept 7-8 hours - has mentioned concerns about insomnia and sleep apnea but of course is also resisting the obvious solution of getting that checked out).
The dog stuff is also complicated - despite lots of training, she's difficult to handle on walks (leash reactivity that needs careful management to avoid lunging at people and dogs, also pulls often if not carefully managed, plus occasionally tries to bolt after a surprise rabbit) so we've been hesitant to have one person take her and baby alone together, and are also hesitant to trust a dog walker since we worry about her suddenly bolting into the street after a prey animal, or less seriously just setting us back on her reactivity/pulling training. She's an 85lb german shepherd mix so she's strong enough to easily escape from someone who's not prepared for it.
Adding further complication and unfairness/resentment issues, I can't drive. The dog park is a 30 minute drive each way so that's a big part of the time spent and even though both partner and I would actually prefer that I do those outings, I can't take her. There's nothing suitable closer (dog gets stressed and antisocial at the smaller enclosed parks) and she's high-energy and really does need that weekend outlet to stay happy during the week. Though I think we could get away with one dog park day and longer neighbourhood walks on the other day. Partner disagrees, and also wants to prioritize caring for the dog's needs in general a little more than I do. He's not doing dog stuff to avoid cleaning, he would be just as happy to have me do more of it instead. The driving is a big issue, and one that causes a lot of resentment on his side, which is fair. I have really bad anxiety when driving and feel - correctly, I believe - like I'm a very unsafe driver. Pre-covid I took a few lessons that helped and plan to resume that once we're comfortable with the covid risk. I also was perfectly capable to bus/bike/walk everywhere before but covid and a baby has changed that (to be clear I never ever ask him to drive me anywhere, just talking about family chores like dog walks and groceries and daycare stuff).
I really appreciate all the responses. I'm going to think hard about how to approach some possible improvements with my partner, hopefully without causing a fight (I'm really bad at that).
posted by Ceci n'est pas une chaussette at 7:34 AM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
He usually does actually do much more cleaning work than me these days, especially now that I'm working during the day. The rough division I referred to includes all "useful work" for the family/home - the majority of mine is childcare. I think the people who brought up not valuing the work equally are bang on. He's the only one who ever cleans the toilets, takes out the garbage, sweeps/mops the floors, and vaccuums (for reasons - he's anxious about me handling the germy stuff, and insists on a precise order/avoiding some areas when cleaning the floors so it stresses me out and I avoid it, and the vaccuuming is a sensory trigger for me). He also does dishes and sometimes does other kitchen tidying before bed during the week (I do it on the weekends). When he cleans I'm always watching baby, and then I feel like we both did work but he feels like he did a bunch of cleaning while I did nothing. If we talk about it he does agree that the childcare is real work too, and agrees that I can't do much if any cleaning while I'm watching baby alone, but I think his "gut feeling" disagrees. I'm not sure how to resolve this - I think maybe I need to just hand him the baby more often and go clean things instead being the default caretaker, which I think he would be fine with, but I have a lot of ADHD-related trouble initiating/remembering to do things like that. We do have a few chores officially divided (him toilets/garbage/lawn stuff, me sinks) and I have trouble keeping up with even just the sinks - the old "out of sight out of mind" problem and I never seem to remember the task exists when I have the ability to hand off baby to him (I know this isn't an excuse but it's a huge struggle for me). I also had trouble with this pre-baby. Cleaning in general has always been really tough for me to keep on top of.
The sleep stuff is complicated. He had a more equal role for the first ~7 months when baby was a truly horrendous sleeper and we slept in shifts with each of us up half the night with her, which meant zero free time and also no cleaning time. We switched to our current arrangement because I'm much more efficient at settling her and it gives us the ability to have some free time, so it's not that he's unwilling to help at night, it just works better for us this way. And I don't really mind giving him unlimited sleep since sleep is important and it wouldn't give me more sleep if he slept less (I can't nap, I've tried), I'd just get more free time when what I have now is enough. Though point well taken that we may need to start setting him an alarm on the weekend so we can get cleaning done then. He also seems to need an unusually high amount of sleep to function and sleeps badly (e.g. sleeping 9-10h on weekends, or napping for an hour and still feeling tired after a night he's slept 7-8 hours - has mentioned concerns about insomnia and sleep apnea but of course is also resisting the obvious solution of getting that checked out).
The dog stuff is also complicated - despite lots of training, she's difficult to handle on walks (leash reactivity that needs careful management to avoid lunging at people and dogs, also pulls often if not carefully managed, plus occasionally tries to bolt after a surprise rabbit) so we've been hesitant to have one person take her and baby alone together, and are also hesitant to trust a dog walker since we worry about her suddenly bolting into the street after a prey animal, or less seriously just setting us back on her reactivity/pulling training. She's an 85lb german shepherd mix so she's strong enough to easily escape from someone who's not prepared for it.
Adding further complication and unfairness/resentment issues, I can't drive. The dog park is a 30 minute drive each way so that's a big part of the time spent and even though both partner and I would actually prefer that I do those outings, I can't take her. There's nothing suitable closer (dog gets stressed and antisocial at the smaller enclosed parks) and she's high-energy and really does need that weekend outlet to stay happy during the week. Though I think we could get away with one dog park day and longer neighbourhood walks on the other day. Partner disagrees, and also wants to prioritize caring for the dog's needs in general a little more than I do. He's not doing dog stuff to avoid cleaning, he would be just as happy to have me do more of it instead. The driving is a big issue, and one that causes a lot of resentment on his side, which is fair. I have really bad anxiety when driving and feel - correctly, I believe - like I'm a very unsafe driver. Pre-covid I took a few lessons that helped and plan to resume that once we're comfortable with the covid risk. I also was perfectly capable to bus/bike/walk everywhere before but covid and a baby has changed that (to be clear I never ever ask him to drive me anywhere, just talking about family chores like dog walks and groceries and daycare stuff).
I really appreciate all the responses. I'm going to think hard about how to approach some possible improvements with my partner, hopefully without causing a fight (I'm really bad at that).
posted by Ceci n'est pas une chaussette at 7:34 AM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
It sounds like baby girl has someone interacting with them at all times. Looking at watching the baby as a chore as opposed to the goal, is not how I looked at it. Also, at one years of age or so, baby can be put in a playpen or even in a bouncy seat and put in a room to the side while you do something else like fold the laundry, check your stock prices, look up a recipe, whatever.
I understand and appreciate that you as a couple are not into or will not do sleep training. If you ever change your mind, your life will be better off bc you will get more sleep and the baby will get more sleep. Sleep begets sleep. Babies need a lot of sleep. As I mentioned earlier, we had 3 kids one year apart. Without hesitation, I can say that most every time our kids were fussing, screaming, crying, etc. was because or one of two things. First and foremost was they were tired. Second was we put them in a situation that was not age appropriate or not appropriate for their temperament. We could take them to some restaurants, but not to overly loud ones or overly quiet ones. Event taking them to a family gathering that conflicted with nap time was a mistake. My kids were only fussy babies/toddlers/kids when we deviated from their expectations. Some kids are ok with ad hoc schedules. Most are not.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:52 AM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I understand and appreciate that you as a couple are not into or will not do sleep training. If you ever change your mind, your life will be better off bc you will get more sleep and the baby will get more sleep. Sleep begets sleep. Babies need a lot of sleep. As I mentioned earlier, we had 3 kids one year apart. Without hesitation, I can say that most every time our kids were fussing, screaming, crying, etc. was because or one of two things. First and foremost was they were tired. Second was we put them in a situation that was not age appropriate or not appropriate for their temperament. We could take them to some restaurants, but not to overly loud ones or overly quiet ones. Event taking them to a family gathering that conflicted with nap time was a mistake. My kids were only fussy babies/toddlers/kids when we deviated from their expectations. Some kids are ok with ad hoc schedules. Most are not.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:52 AM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Also in the same vein of valuing different tasks differently - I'm firmly a "clean-as-you-go, carefully avoid making messes to avoid cleaning" type, while he's a "fling things everywhere, let the mess pile up and then clean for hours eventually" type. I don't have the stamina or time for these marathon cleaning sessions and would much rather just...not make the mess in the first place. Like putting garbage straight into the garbage instead of on the counter, eating the entire bowl of cereal instead of abandoning half-finished bowls to solidify into concrete, or peeling carrots into the compost instead of all over the counter and leaving all the bits to dry there and be really difficult to clean up later (which he does daily to peel carrots for the dog, completely unnecessarily - to be fair he did start doing it into a bowl when I asked but it's still annoying to clean up later). I've tried to neutrally talk through this pattern with him and it always just turns into a big fight of who makes more mess and who's not doing enough, because he makes way more messes (very clearly in my opinion but not his) but also does legitimately clean more (and thinks I need to be doing half the cleaning). Similarly, his OCD issues cause a ton of extra laundry when things get "dirty" multiple times a day and "need" to be changed. He does handle almost all the extra laundry when it comes to baby and household stuff (dishcloths, towels, dog blankets etc many times a week) while I just accept washing my own clothes more often, so it would be fine except that he feels that this is all required cleaning and resents that I'm not doing half of it.
We also have different cleaning priorities, like dishes, garbage/food scraps and scattered items bother me a lot but I'm pretty happy overall with just clean counters and a relatively clear floorspace, whereas he doesn't care much about that stuff but instead prioritizes cleaning things that I literally don't notice before/after like the splatters on the fridge door, vaccuuming the stairs, wiping down baseboards, and dusting. Again we have so much tension around cleaning that any attempt to discuss this leads to a fight. It feels like it should be solvable by just understanding each other better but we both get mad and irrational and get nowhere. I guess a lot of this is more a relationship/poor communication thing than a cleaning thing.
Also to be clear the mess isn't too outrageous and we do get it to a manageable (still pretty dirty but not appalling) level most nights. We haven't had any pest issues besides the recent incident and it rarely gets to the point of mold (only if something gets hidden or if we're really having trouble catching up on dishes and leave something to soak too long). I grew up in a much dirtier environment (also part of the problem as my partner grew up in a spotless home, due entirely to his mother).
I do agree that we both need to stop scorekeeping. I've been worried that if I do, we'll end up too far towards the common pattern of the woman doing almost everything, especially with my partner feeling that our current division is very unfair. But maybe I need to let that worry go and just deal with it if it does happen.
I think that's all the major points. Sorry, I'll stop thread-sitting now and will go look up some of the resources mentioned.
posted by Ceci n'est pas une chaussette at 8:56 AM on August 4, 2022
We also have different cleaning priorities, like dishes, garbage/food scraps and scattered items bother me a lot but I'm pretty happy overall with just clean counters and a relatively clear floorspace, whereas he doesn't care much about that stuff but instead prioritizes cleaning things that I literally don't notice before/after like the splatters on the fridge door, vaccuuming the stairs, wiping down baseboards, and dusting. Again we have so much tension around cleaning that any attempt to discuss this leads to a fight. It feels like it should be solvable by just understanding each other better but we both get mad and irrational and get nowhere. I guess a lot of this is more a relationship/poor communication thing than a cleaning thing.
Also to be clear the mess isn't too outrageous and we do get it to a manageable (still pretty dirty but not appalling) level most nights. We haven't had any pest issues besides the recent incident and it rarely gets to the point of mold (only if something gets hidden or if we're really having trouble catching up on dishes and leave something to soak too long). I grew up in a much dirtier environment (also part of the problem as my partner grew up in a spotless home, due entirely to his mother).
I do agree that we both need to stop scorekeeping. I've been worried that if I do, we'll end up too far towards the common pattern of the woman doing almost everything, especially with my partner feeling that our current division is very unfair. But maybe I need to let that worry go and just deal with it if it does happen.
I think that's all the major points. Sorry, I'll stop thread-sitting now and will go look up some of the resources mentioned.
posted by Ceci n'est pas une chaussette at 8:56 AM on August 4, 2022
A professional dog walker is likely to have no trouble with large, rambunctious breeds. Just mention that when you're interviewing them and ask if they have experience with it.
Not to beat a dead horse, but night weaning is not sleep training. Night weaning at some point between 12 and 18 months saved my sanity.
Re: ADHD and not initiating, I would recommend that you either work on building a habit of "every time I x, I also y", or get his help building a mutual habit of cleaning time, where you both do only the cleaning for x amount of time. For the first idea you can keep cleaning wipes near the sink and every time you go to the bathroom wipe it down. Every time you do some routine thing that happens in the kitchen, that's when you wipe that sink down. And if all else fails, things like Google home can be used to trigger auditory reminders and then the issue is just "ok even though I want to keep sitting here, that task will probably only take five minutes or less so I'll just give it five minutes then come back to what I'm doing." It's the "know a thing needs doing but wait til later" that often gets us in trouble. So just do it now. Sounds like an oversimplification but working on shifting to that mindset of "anything that will take less than 5 minutes gets done right this second" might help.
Discussion of "minimal acceptable standards" through the Fair Play system might help with some of the issues around chores communication and resentment. It's hard when one person's necessary seems optional to the other one.
Baby can be set in a pack and play or a door jamb bouncy seat, walker, floor seat, etc while you help with the cleaning tasks. There's no real reason you need to keep eyes on the child at all times, unless there's a big piece of information missing. The child just needs a "yes space." Then you can assist with the cleaning unencumbered. Yes parenting is work, but that particular work is not truly "necessary" the way the cleaning is if there is a way to reduce the direct hands on care safely for a few minutes.
Maybe also see if you two can agree that he can give you a list of tasks since you mention struggling to parse those out, and he can focus his energy on the cleaning that he chose not to do "as he goes." That way you aren't having to clean up after him in the ways you want him to be doing in the moment, and he has more time and energy to do that and whatever else is a priority.
Is it possible he prioritizes these more obscure cleaning tasks because he is hoping you'll do more of the "in your face, regular maintenance required" tasks? Has this been stated explicitly? One reason my partner with ADHD handles cooking is that has a built in deadline, so it's a task he can "own" that I do not have to prompt or remind him to do. Eventually hungry bellies will do the reminding. I wonder if your partner is hoping for something similar here with the cleaning? I get tired of prompting my partner and look for ways to get the environment to do it for me.
Or by "prioritizes" do you mean he cares more about clean baseboards than clean counters? (And if so is that because baby can move on the floor but not reach the counters so to him it's a safety thing?)
Listing every task required to maintain the home, rating how important each one is to you, which one you hate the most and which one you hate the least, doing it all on paper might get some of the emotion out of it.
Um, why is he peeling carrots for the dog? Dogs can eat carrots just as they come from the ground. That is an example of a task that might be given up in favor of something with a higher priority.
posted by crunchy potato at 9:16 AM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not to beat a dead horse, but night weaning is not sleep training. Night weaning at some point between 12 and 18 months saved my sanity.
Re: ADHD and not initiating, I would recommend that you either work on building a habit of "every time I x, I also y", or get his help building a mutual habit of cleaning time, where you both do only the cleaning for x amount of time. For the first idea you can keep cleaning wipes near the sink and every time you go to the bathroom wipe it down. Every time you do some routine thing that happens in the kitchen, that's when you wipe that sink down. And if all else fails, things like Google home can be used to trigger auditory reminders and then the issue is just "ok even though I want to keep sitting here, that task will probably only take five minutes or less so I'll just give it five minutes then come back to what I'm doing." It's the "know a thing needs doing but wait til later" that often gets us in trouble. So just do it now. Sounds like an oversimplification but working on shifting to that mindset of "anything that will take less than 5 minutes gets done right this second" might help.
Discussion of "minimal acceptable standards" through the Fair Play system might help with some of the issues around chores communication and resentment. It's hard when one person's necessary seems optional to the other one.
Baby can be set in a pack and play or a door jamb bouncy seat, walker, floor seat, etc while you help with the cleaning tasks. There's no real reason you need to keep eyes on the child at all times, unless there's a big piece of information missing. The child just needs a "yes space." Then you can assist with the cleaning unencumbered. Yes parenting is work, but that particular work is not truly "necessary" the way the cleaning is if there is a way to reduce the direct hands on care safely for a few minutes.
Maybe also see if you two can agree that he can give you a list of tasks since you mention struggling to parse those out, and he can focus his energy on the cleaning that he chose not to do "as he goes." That way you aren't having to clean up after him in the ways you want him to be doing in the moment, and he has more time and energy to do that and whatever else is a priority.
Is it possible he prioritizes these more obscure cleaning tasks because he is hoping you'll do more of the "in your face, regular maintenance required" tasks? Has this been stated explicitly? One reason my partner with ADHD handles cooking is that has a built in deadline, so it's a task he can "own" that I do not have to prompt or remind him to do. Eventually hungry bellies will do the reminding. I wonder if your partner is hoping for something similar here with the cleaning? I get tired of prompting my partner and look for ways to get the environment to do it for me.
Or by "prioritizes" do you mean he cares more about clean baseboards than clean counters? (And if so is that because baby can move on the floor but not reach the counters so to him it's a safety thing?)
Listing every task required to maintain the home, rating how important each one is to you, which one you hate the most and which one you hate the least, doing it all on paper might get some of the emotion out of it.
Um, why is he peeling carrots for the dog? Dogs can eat carrots just as they come from the ground. That is an example of a task that might be given up in favor of something with a higher priority.
posted by crunchy potato at 9:16 AM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
If anything I'm the slacker when it comes to cleaning specifically.
I'm going to think hard about how to approach some possible improvements with my partner, hopefully without causing a fight (I'm really bad at that).
Again, I'm so sorry you have to deal with this on top of all your other responsibilities. It sounds like you're in a situation where you're constantly being told that all the problems boil down to you, and I really doubt that that is true. FWIW, I didn't think you were making your husband seem like a slacker, but I don't think he's treating you very well. Why are his "priorities" (like peeling carrots for the dog...) so much more important than your needs?
posted by mustard seeds at 11:38 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm going to think hard about how to approach some possible improvements with my partner, hopefully without causing a fight (I'm really bad at that).
Again, I'm so sorry you have to deal with this on top of all your other responsibilities. It sounds like you're in a situation where you're constantly being told that all the problems boil down to you, and I really doubt that that is true. FWIW, I didn't think you were making your husband seem like a slacker, but I don't think he's treating you very well. Why are his "priorities" (like peeling carrots for the dog...) so much more important than your needs?
posted by mustard seeds at 11:38 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Again we have so much tension around cleaning that any attempt to discuss this leads to a fight.
Just want to gently point out that this is totally unsustainable. I have known friends and relatives' marriages fail because of a mismatch of cleaning habits/styles and poor communication over it, no exaggeration.
There's so much in this question I want to comment on, and I want to agree strongly with others who remind you that breastfeeding is work, watching your kid is work.
But just to focus on the above thing. If you can fix this, it will take so much strain out of your relationship. You have options: hire a cleaner while he's out and lie about it has been mentioned, morally dubious but I might do it if I was desperate. Get him to do more kid-time and do more of it yourself at a specified time, as in, set a phone reminder for your ADHD needs. OR. Have a big, adult conversation about him seeking help for his OCD so that he can function at a level which enables you to simply stop living such a limited life.
I want to note that I can really imagine, as you're reading this, you shaking your head about these options. In your question and also your replies, you say so often "we can't/won't/hesitate to/etc". I think you have got yourself into a space (and I remember being in that same space when our kid was at that age, a few years ago) where everything seems like dead ends, things just are, and you feel you've tried everything you can.
But I gently encourage you to be brave. Open minded. Go forward believing that things can and indeed must change.
From the other side - with a nearly 4 year old whose sleep is now beautiful, with a shared parental load I'm super happy with, and a (more or less, lol) clean and tidy house... it can get so much better. But you have to work at it (and I don't mean the labour you're doing, I mean work at communication), and you have to be brave, and you have to be up for change... or it won't.
posted by greenish at 11:50 AM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Just want to gently point out that this is totally unsustainable. I have known friends and relatives' marriages fail because of a mismatch of cleaning habits/styles and poor communication over it, no exaggeration.
There's so much in this question I want to comment on, and I want to agree strongly with others who remind you that breastfeeding is work, watching your kid is work.
But just to focus on the above thing. If you can fix this, it will take so much strain out of your relationship. You have options: hire a cleaner while he's out and lie about it has been mentioned, morally dubious but I might do it if I was desperate. Get him to do more kid-time and do more of it yourself at a specified time, as in, set a phone reminder for your ADHD needs. OR. Have a big, adult conversation about him seeking help for his OCD so that he can function at a level which enables you to simply stop living such a limited life.
I want to note that I can really imagine, as you're reading this, you shaking your head about these options. In your question and also your replies, you say so often "we can't/won't/hesitate to/etc". I think you have got yourself into a space (and I remember being in that same space when our kid was at that age, a few years ago) where everything seems like dead ends, things just are, and you feel you've tried everything you can.
But I gently encourage you to be brave. Open minded. Go forward believing that things can and indeed must change.
From the other side - with a nearly 4 year old whose sleep is now beautiful, with a shared parental load I'm super happy with, and a (more or less, lol) clean and tidy house... it can get so much better. But you have to work at it (and I don't mean the labour you're doing, I mean work at communication), and you have to be brave, and you have to be up for change... or it won't.
posted by greenish at 11:50 AM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm a parent of two kids ages 4 and 8. One of the most valuable thing someone told me when my first was a baby is that most of parenting is figuring out which job is the job, and which job is the break. Meaning if one person is working, everyone is working. And yes, to add to the chorus, breastfeeding 100% counts as working. So does pumping. And childcare. I think it is a really interesting double standard that he is unable clean while looking after baby, which suggests he thinks it IS work, but expects you to be able to clean when you're on baby duty.
S if you go to bed at ~11 pm, and he needs 9-10 hours of sleep, and is waking at 11, he's going to bed around ~2 am? And thus getting twice the free time you are (not even controlling for things like spacing out on his phone while you breastfeed or relaxing after the dog park)? That's... not great.
After reading your updates, if it were me, I would focus on:
1) Sleep coach for the baby. I know several families for whom they were immensely helpful at identifying problem areas and adjustments to the routine without ever resorting to what I imagine you are envisioning as sleep training, or crying it out. And they helped, like, immediately. Most of them are available online, you don't need to find one in your area.
2) Professional dog walker, this seems like the most immediate and obvious area to get a HUGE amount of time back. There are almost certainly people out there who have training expertise and can handle a large energetic breed that isn't just a random person from Rover who loves animals. And if your partner really does need that much sleep, then I would stack these things and have the weekend dog walker come as soon as you get up in the morning. He sleeps, you hang with baby, dog comes back tired and happy, and then the whole afternoon is free for family time or however much cleaning everyone can manage. It's nice that he loves and values the dog so much that he wants to prioritize their wellbeing, and the extra exercise does sound like a necessity as well as something your partner probably really enjoys handling, but it also sounds like it's coming at a real cost to your home and family life. The peeled carrots... just no. Pets become second-class citizens for awhile when babies are little, it's just how it is. I'm kinda upset on your behalf that the dog is getting peeled carrots while you're scrounging cereal for lunch.
3) Could you hire a mother's helper on weekend days for a couple hours? Or during weekdays or evenings while your partner is home? A neighborhood tween or teen? They occupy and play with baby, you're still around if baby needs to nurse, and you two are free to get stuff done.
4) Laundry service. There are even ones now that will come pick up at your house and return same day. Even if laundry is something you don't have trouble keeping up with, it sounds like a lot of laundry is being generated constantly and any time savings is still a savings that can be put toward other things. SudShare is one, KC Davis's site linked above mentioned another.
5) You mentioned starting daycare which will add extra burdens to your day such as commute. What about a nanny instead? I know families whose nanny helps with light housekeeping and preps meals for the family which would give you a considerable amount of evening time back.
6) An ADHD coach for you, maybe? Could be helpful with factoring in the chores assigned to you on a regular basis like the sinks. Also Dana K. White's books are a tremendous resource for gaining control of the day-to-day stuff. Her most recent one takes you through incremental steps at achieving reliable control of stuff like trash and dishes (and probably sinks too) before even thinking about embarking on anything bigger.
At the end of the day, basically everything greenish said x 100%. I'm divorced now and cleaning/division of labor wasn't one of the main issues that broke us but it was nonetheless a big one that we never achieved much resolution on, in addition to his refusal to seek treatment for depression. IDK if this would help convince your partner or not but it's worth noting that you are "living in a season" right now, big time. That is something that I remember vividly from when my kids were smaller, just how positively interminable everything seems when you're in a crappy situation. I wish I'd known that outsourcing some short-term help for things like the dog or the laundry isn't going to be an extra service or expense or logistic I'd have to factor in forever. It probably won't even last a full year. You just need long enough to dig out and get some breathing room. Also, I don't know, man, I would normally never, ever suggest hiring stealth cleaners, but... in this case I would 1000% hire stealth cleaners. You just cannot realistically improve the situation in the face of all these constraints and objections.
posted by anderjen at 12:09 PM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
S if you go to bed at ~11 pm, and he needs 9-10 hours of sleep, and is waking at 11, he's going to bed around ~2 am? And thus getting twice the free time you are (not even controlling for things like spacing out on his phone while you breastfeed or relaxing after the dog park)? That's... not great.
After reading your updates, if it were me, I would focus on:
1) Sleep coach for the baby. I know several families for whom they were immensely helpful at identifying problem areas and adjustments to the routine without ever resorting to what I imagine you are envisioning as sleep training, or crying it out. And they helped, like, immediately. Most of them are available online, you don't need to find one in your area.
2) Professional dog walker, this seems like the most immediate and obvious area to get a HUGE amount of time back. There are almost certainly people out there who have training expertise and can handle a large energetic breed that isn't just a random person from Rover who loves animals. And if your partner really does need that much sleep, then I would stack these things and have the weekend dog walker come as soon as you get up in the morning. He sleeps, you hang with baby, dog comes back tired and happy, and then the whole afternoon is free for family time or however much cleaning everyone can manage. It's nice that he loves and values the dog so much that he wants to prioritize their wellbeing, and the extra exercise does sound like a necessity as well as something your partner probably really enjoys handling, but it also sounds like it's coming at a real cost to your home and family life. The peeled carrots... just no. Pets become second-class citizens for awhile when babies are little, it's just how it is. I'm kinda upset on your behalf that the dog is getting peeled carrots while you're scrounging cereal for lunch.
3) Could you hire a mother's helper on weekend days for a couple hours? Or during weekdays or evenings while your partner is home? A neighborhood tween or teen? They occupy and play with baby, you're still around if baby needs to nurse, and you two are free to get stuff done.
4) Laundry service. There are even ones now that will come pick up at your house and return same day. Even if laundry is something you don't have trouble keeping up with, it sounds like a lot of laundry is being generated constantly and any time savings is still a savings that can be put toward other things. SudShare is one, KC Davis's site linked above mentioned another.
5) You mentioned starting daycare which will add extra burdens to your day such as commute. What about a nanny instead? I know families whose nanny helps with light housekeeping and preps meals for the family which would give you a considerable amount of evening time back.
6) An ADHD coach for you, maybe? Could be helpful with factoring in the chores assigned to you on a regular basis like the sinks. Also Dana K. White's books are a tremendous resource for gaining control of the day-to-day stuff. Her most recent one takes you through incremental steps at achieving reliable control of stuff like trash and dishes (and probably sinks too) before even thinking about embarking on anything bigger.
At the end of the day, basically everything greenish said x 100%. I'm divorced now and cleaning/division of labor wasn't one of the main issues that broke us but it was nonetheless a big one that we never achieved much resolution on, in addition to his refusal to seek treatment for depression. IDK if this would help convince your partner or not but it's worth noting that you are "living in a season" right now, big time. That is something that I remember vividly from when my kids were smaller, just how positively interminable everything seems when you're in a crappy situation. I wish I'd known that outsourcing some short-term help for things like the dog or the laundry isn't going to be an extra service or expense or logistic I'd have to factor in forever. It probably won't even last a full year. You just need long enough to dig out and get some breathing room. Also, I don't know, man, I would normally never, ever suggest hiring stealth cleaners, but... in this case I would 1000% hire stealth cleaners. You just cannot realistically improve the situation in the face of all these constraints and objections.
posted by anderjen at 12:09 PM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I know you said you're opposed to sleep training, but I will chime in with others saying that finding some way to improve the kid's sleep will do you a world of good. I've got a 1- and a 3-year-old, and if they did not go to bed when they do (around 7) I can't imagine how my wife and I would keep our house in any semblance of order. The baby is definitely developmentally ready to sleep through the night so I would look into gentle sleep books or a consultant to try to figure that out.
Good luck!
posted by Aizkolari at 12:49 PM on August 4, 2022
Good luck!
posted by Aizkolari at 12:49 PM on August 4, 2022
If it helps, here's our routine; we've got a 3 year old, and spouse has ADHD; FWIW, I'm a woman and my spouse is a man. Spouse is fully WFH; I'm partially WFH.
Kiddo goes to bed at 7:30pm. Immediately after this we spend 20-30 minutes unfucking the house. One person generally grabs the kitchen; the other grabs the living room/other spaces. We tend to switch these off, and/or give the other person a choice.
Weekends, we trade off sleeping in; we each get a day. Bigger chores get done then (laundry, mowing the lawn, bathroom cleaning, grocery shopping, etc.), and are rotated and/or split permanently. We both get some time to ourselves; the other parent either combines childcare with chores (e.g., grocery store with kiddo), or just...gets out of the house with the kid to the park. These asks are explicit ("Hey, I need some time Sunday morning") or granted when spouse can see other spouse slowly losing it.
When kiddo was younger/still getting fed overnight, we traded off nights--when I was breastfeeding, this meant when husband was on duty, he brought kiddo to bed, took kiddo back to bed, did any diaper changes, etc. (Really early on, we did two shifts a night, and traded off early shift/ late shift.) We've carried this forward in alternating who gets kiddo ready for bed/up and fed breakfast in the morning.
The key things here:
-Explicit trading off and splitting of duties to the extent that our child notices and comments on this ("Is it daddy's night?" "Is mommy doing pick up?" "Is it mommy's week for grocery?")
-Set sleep habits for kiddo; get there how you can. That's 7:30pm-our bedtime every night is key to our sanity and keeping the house in order; likewise, naps on weekends (though those are going away.)
-Therapy and medication for my husband. He, like your husband, needs a decent amount of sleep to function, and really does a lot worse than me with early wakings/being woken up at night. Didn't matter--he recognized I also needed sleep, so we traded off nights.
posted by damayanti at 12:49 PM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Kiddo goes to bed at 7:30pm. Immediately after this we spend 20-30 minutes unfucking the house. One person generally grabs the kitchen; the other grabs the living room/other spaces. We tend to switch these off, and/or give the other person a choice.
Weekends, we trade off sleeping in; we each get a day. Bigger chores get done then (laundry, mowing the lawn, bathroom cleaning, grocery shopping, etc.), and are rotated and/or split permanently. We both get some time to ourselves; the other parent either combines childcare with chores (e.g., grocery store with kiddo), or just...gets out of the house with the kid to the park. These asks are explicit ("Hey, I need some time Sunday morning") or granted when spouse can see other spouse slowly losing it.
When kiddo was younger/still getting fed overnight, we traded off nights--when I was breastfeeding, this meant when husband was on duty, he brought kiddo to bed, took kiddo back to bed, did any diaper changes, etc. (Really early on, we did two shifts a night, and traded off early shift/ late shift.) We've carried this forward in alternating who gets kiddo ready for bed/up and fed breakfast in the morning.
The key things here:
-Explicit trading off and splitting of duties to the extent that our child notices and comments on this ("Is it daddy's night?" "Is mommy doing pick up?" "Is it mommy's week for grocery?")
-Set sleep habits for kiddo; get there how you can. That's 7:30pm-our bedtime every night is key to our sanity and keeping the house in order; likewise, naps on weekends (though those are going away.)
-Therapy and medication for my husband. He, like your husband, needs a decent amount of sleep to function, and really does a lot worse than me with early wakings/being woken up at night. Didn't matter--he recognized I also needed sleep, so we traded off nights.
posted by damayanti at 12:49 PM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
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I also recommend the book How To Keep House While Drowning.
From your description of your sleep schedule, you are chronically exhausted, which is going to make your executive functioning skills worse. Can you nap or anything, again, while parents watch the baby if necessary?
Ask your husband to stop complaining about the amount that you do, and try to do the same for him, even mentally. Make yourself a mantra like "we are doing the best we can" to avoid resentment.
I really hope you figure something out! This sounds very frustrating.
posted by chaiminda at 1:33 PM on August 3, 2022 [4 favorites]