Why should I consider moving to Montreal?
May 22, 2022 4:35 AM Subscribe
Out of all places in Canada, Quebec is really the only place in which I don't really understand. It's also the only place in which I would ever feel like me being Latino (probably one of the smallest minorities in Canada) would matter. I'm white though, and my accent is mostly non-existent so I don't know that they'd find out.
Yet there's just something about Quebec. Something that makes it alluring.
For the record, I speak French, and pretty well according to what they tell me. I wouldn't have an issue on that front.
I know some people from there here in Ontario that have some relation to Quebec. One of them was born in Montreal but lived her life in Ottawa and the other was born in Toronto but his father is from Quebec and spends a lot of time going to Quebec City.
Still sometimes I take a look into what Quebec is like and it seems crazy. These Bills 21 and 96 are pretty screwed up, discriminatory and are just generally bad for business. They are widely supported anyway, as is the current nationalist government.
Taxes in Quebec are also way too high and so are corruption scandals (or they used to be anyway).
Yet you hear things like Montreal being the best night life in North America. How it is becoming a huge AI hub and how technology is becoming a big thing over there. Housing is also cheaper and the city itself is very cosmopolitan.
I'm headed there next week anyway, and I'll probably go there again in June. Even so, I'm wondering what people think about the place.
For the record, I speak French, and pretty well according to what they tell me. I wouldn't have an issue on that front.
I know some people from there here in Ontario that have some relation to Quebec. One of them was born in Montreal but lived her life in Ottawa and the other was born in Toronto but his father is from Quebec and spends a lot of time going to Quebec City.
Still sometimes I take a look into what Quebec is like and it seems crazy. These Bills 21 and 96 are pretty screwed up, discriminatory and are just generally bad for business. They are widely supported anyway, as is the current nationalist government.
Taxes in Quebec are also way too high and so are corruption scandals (or they used to be anyway).
Yet you hear things like Montreal being the best night life in North America. How it is becoming a huge AI hub and how technology is becoming a big thing over there. Housing is also cheaper and the city itself is very cosmopolitan.
I'm headed there next week anyway, and I'll probably go there again in June. Even so, I'm wondering what people think about the place.
Montreal is my favorite city. (That said, I lived in the Montreal suburbs as a kid, and downtown for four years in college, so my memory is absolutely tinged with nostalgia. I did spent two months there in 2018, though, so my memories aren't entirely out of date.)
If you don't speak Quebec French, you may have a little bit of difficulty adjusting, as it's very much a different dialect from standard French.
Downtown is fantastically walkable. The architecture is beautiful. The food is great. Partly because rents are still relatively affordable, it feels like a city with space for art and politics and weirdness - more than, say, New York.
Bill 21 and 96 are indeed awful, and if we're in the middle of a rightward, nationalistic turn in politics generally, I think that could turn particularly bad in Quebec.
posted by Jeanne at 6:08 AM on May 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
If you don't speak Quebec French, you may have a little bit of difficulty adjusting, as it's very much a different dialect from standard French.
Downtown is fantastically walkable. The architecture is beautiful. The food is great. Partly because rents are still relatively affordable, it feels like a city with space for art and politics and weirdness - more than, say, New York.
Bill 21 and 96 are indeed awful, and if we're in the middle of a rightward, nationalistic turn in politics generally, I think that could turn particularly bad in Quebec.
posted by Jeanne at 6:08 AM on May 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
I would not plan a move to that province unless I was confident in my ability to pick up fluent French. You can absolutely get by without French, or English for that matter. But getting by is not thriving and there will be French that you need to read when official letters arrive in the mail, and web sites where copy pasting into a translation program leaves you still not entirely sure of potentially critical nuances, and times when a fonctionnaire who only speaks French is a gatekeeper.
Another issue is your ability to be employed - fluent French will make a world of difference there. Trying to find employment in Quebec without French is much, much, much harder.
Taking some French courses would be an easy step to work on before you start seriously planning a move. If you don't have the motivation to work on the language before you go, I would anticipate eventual problems with being comfortable living in Montreal.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:39 AM on May 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Another issue is your ability to be employed - fluent French will make a world of difference there. Trying to find employment in Quebec without French is much, much, much harder.
Taking some French courses would be an easy step to work on before you start seriously planning a move. If you don't have the motivation to work on the language before you go, I would anticipate eventual problems with being comfortable living in Montreal.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:39 AM on May 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Don't forget Montreal's wicked winters and its notoriously bad and bumpy roads, especially in early spring when the snow recedes and the potholes and cracks resurface. The city is always at grips with its crumbling infrastructure: this weekend there's the first of a series in the English language daily about the decrepit state of the Trans-Canada Highway where it runs through the northern part of the city as an elevated road (aka the 40, or the Metropolitan). All those rusty rebars sticking out, hardly even hidden by the graffiti.
The city is not as affordable as it used to be. Rents are rising fast, and while there are supposedly laws against Airbnb-type short-term rentals on most streets, there isn't the political will or the manpower to enforce them, so a city that's accustomed to having a comfortable bank of rental options is suddenly finding itself with a minuscule vacancy rate (and we all move on the same day, remember: July 1 is moving day for almost all tenancies).
Yes, provincial politics are icky, and the CAQ government is deep into using xenophobia and exaggerating language differences to create drama. But on an afternoon at Jean-Talon market recently, I heard people shifting comfortably between French and English all around me, and even got to try out my rudimentary Spanish. It's easy to get caught up in the manufactured drama, but on the whole, people get along fine in their work and daily lives.
Depending on your job skills, French can be crucial, or not so important. If you're a programmer or into AI, they will not care. When what's important is what you know, the language is not the big deal, especially when the international language of that specialty is English. However, if you need to take a public-facing job, French will be essential. And many people are here from France now, so having a Hochelaga accent is no longer de rigueur.
And remember, the sun rises in the south and sets in the north.
Not really understanding Quebec will help you fit right in.
posted by zadcat at 6:41 AM on May 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
The city is not as affordable as it used to be. Rents are rising fast, and while there are supposedly laws against Airbnb-type short-term rentals on most streets, there isn't the political will or the manpower to enforce them, so a city that's accustomed to having a comfortable bank of rental options is suddenly finding itself with a minuscule vacancy rate (and we all move on the same day, remember: July 1 is moving day for almost all tenancies).
Yes, provincial politics are icky, and the CAQ government is deep into using xenophobia and exaggerating language differences to create drama. But on an afternoon at Jean-Talon market recently, I heard people shifting comfortably between French and English all around me, and even got to try out my rudimentary Spanish. It's easy to get caught up in the manufactured drama, but on the whole, people get along fine in their work and daily lives.
Depending on your job skills, French can be crucial, or not so important. If you're a programmer or into AI, they will not care. When what's important is what you know, the language is not the big deal, especially when the international language of that specialty is English. However, if you need to take a public-facing job, French will be essential. And many people are here from France now, so having a Hochelaga accent is no longer de rigueur.
And remember, the sun rises in the south and sets in the north.
Not really understanding Quebec will help you fit right in.
posted by zadcat at 6:41 AM on May 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think that to understand a bit about the political culture of Quebec, one needs to know more about the history of Quebec. Reading up on the Quiet Revolution (late '60s I think) is probably a good place to start, and then work backwards/forwards from there.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:53 AM on May 22, 2022
posted by heatherlogan at 6:53 AM on May 22, 2022
Best answer: I live in Montreal! I absolutely love it. And, it’s a weird place.
I think you’ve got the right idea — visit a few times, spend some time here, and see if you might enjoy living here.
The nightlife here is amazing. And Montreal in the summer is one of the best places on earth. But, there’s a flip side — winter here is long and brutal. Make sure you spend some time here in Jan or Feb before deciding to make the move.
Another drawback is that it can be hard to advance in your career unless you’re comfortable working in French. Tech is one of the few industries where that’s not the case (there’s a lot of English-speaking tech workplaces) though who knows how that might change in the future. I wouldn’t recommend someone to move here if they didn’t speak at least some French, but it sounds like you’ve got that covered.
The current stuff with Bill 96 is quite frustrating, but… that’s just the current government. The people are not the same as the government. There’s SO many negative stereotypes Canadians have about Quebec, and once you spend enough time here you realize most of them are bullshit fear-mongering. The people here are just people, like anywhere else.
Other drawbacks: The healthcare here is under-funded and not great in some ways. It’s extremely difficult to get a primary care doctor. It can sometimes be hard to feel like you belong here if you’re not from here — but on the other hand, that’s true if many places. Salaries for skilled jobs are lower here compared to the rest of Canada, and significantly lower than the US. You kinda just have to let a lot of frustrations roll off your back if you live here — healthcare, the bureaucracy, the potholes, etc. The taxes are high.
Other pros: On the flip side, rent and cost of living are low too. The city becomes a giant outdoor party in the summer. It’s OK to be weird in Montreal — you can dress however you want and do your thing and nobody really cares. As a queer person I feel very comfortable here. Great music and arts scene. And a general feeling of “work to live” rather than “live to work” — people really try to enjoy life here, and work comes secondary to that. I’m speaking in generalities, of course. There’s a good tech and AI scene here, if that’s what interests you as a career. There’s also a significant Latino population (though I’m not Latino so I can’t speak to that experience.) The winter is brutal, but Montreal has the best snow-clearing system of any city in the world.
posted by mekily at 6:56 AM on May 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think you’ve got the right idea — visit a few times, spend some time here, and see if you might enjoy living here.
The nightlife here is amazing. And Montreal in the summer is one of the best places on earth. But, there’s a flip side — winter here is long and brutal. Make sure you spend some time here in Jan or Feb before deciding to make the move.
Another drawback is that it can be hard to advance in your career unless you’re comfortable working in French. Tech is one of the few industries where that’s not the case (there’s a lot of English-speaking tech workplaces) though who knows how that might change in the future. I wouldn’t recommend someone to move here if they didn’t speak at least some French, but it sounds like you’ve got that covered.
The current stuff with Bill 96 is quite frustrating, but… that’s just the current government. The people are not the same as the government. There’s SO many negative stereotypes Canadians have about Quebec, and once you spend enough time here you realize most of them are bullshit fear-mongering. The people here are just people, like anywhere else.
Other drawbacks: The healthcare here is under-funded and not great in some ways. It’s extremely difficult to get a primary care doctor. It can sometimes be hard to feel like you belong here if you’re not from here — but on the other hand, that’s true if many places. Salaries for skilled jobs are lower here compared to the rest of Canada, and significantly lower than the US. You kinda just have to let a lot of frustrations roll off your back if you live here — healthcare, the bureaucracy, the potholes, etc. The taxes are high.
Other pros: On the flip side, rent and cost of living are low too. The city becomes a giant outdoor party in the summer. It’s OK to be weird in Montreal — you can dress however you want and do your thing and nobody really cares. As a queer person I feel very comfortable here. Great music and arts scene. And a general feeling of “work to live” rather than “live to work” — people really try to enjoy life here, and work comes secondary to that. I’m speaking in generalities, of course. There’s a good tech and AI scene here, if that’s what interests you as a career. There’s also a significant Latino population (though I’m not Latino so I can’t speak to that experience.) The winter is brutal, but Montreal has the best snow-clearing system of any city in the world.
posted by mekily at 6:56 AM on May 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Something to add: Montreal is better than most places in Quebec, but even so, you will always be something of an outsider. Even Anglos born in Montreal are treated as lesser than French descendent francophones (source: Anglo friends living in Montreal). It's not quite like a white person moving to Tokyo and never EVER fitting in even if they've been there decades ("you speak excellent Japanese!"), but it isn't NOT like that either.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:45 AM on May 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:45 AM on May 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
Montreal is expensive. Rent isn't cheap, especially if you're looking for something (middle-class) "nice" in the downtown core. Food in grocery stores is ridiculously expensive compared with Ontario, in particular I found a huge mark-up on dairy, vegetables and bread. Meat was about the same as Ontario. Fish seemed cheaper. Gas was a little bit more. Note, my experience was directly pre-pandemic/early pandemic days.
posted by sardonyx at 10:43 AM on May 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by sardonyx at 10:43 AM on May 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
You say you speak French, and I know it’s unlikely, but just in case you have future designs of living in France or other non-Canadian French-speaking country (as I do for example), I would emphatically NOT live in Montreal unless you want to instill in yourself a universally mocked version of French that will get you laughed at with merciless scorn anywhere outside Canada. I’ve seen first-hand how brutal it is out there through my partner lol.
posted by asimplemouse at 11:46 AM on May 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by asimplemouse at 11:46 AM on May 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't worry about accent. If you listen to Radio-Canada and use the internet to keep one toe in the world of metropolitan French you'll never sound like a farmer from Saint Calixte de Kilkenny.
posted by zadcat at 11:57 AM on May 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by zadcat at 11:57 AM on May 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
Just go. You may not like it, but this is a city that you can fall in love with.
Winters aren’t that bad by Canadian standards - not as cold as the prairies, not as grey and rainy as Vancouver, snowier than Toronto. It’s fine.
Rent and housing is extraordinarily cheap compared to any major city in North America. Not as cheap as two decades ago and people are hitting affordability challenges but compared to Toronto? Vancouver? Boston? San Francisco? Not even in the same galaxy.
The culture is its own thing ... it’s distinct from the rest of Québec, though obviously of Québec (kind of like New York is completely different from most of the US but is completely American). Most of my acquaintances from Mexico or South America feel much more at home here than in other parts of Canada.
The food is great, the vibe during the nice weather, the winsome public art murals, graffiti, music, festivals.... just great.
I was thinking about cities that people write songs about. New York, absolutely. Paris, LA, London... I can’t think of a single song about Toronto, but I can fill a playlist with songs about Montréal (mostly from Québec artists of course, but still...).
posted by bumpkin at 12:12 PM on May 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Winters aren’t that bad by Canadian standards - not as cold as the prairies, not as grey and rainy as Vancouver, snowier than Toronto. It’s fine.
Rent and housing is extraordinarily cheap compared to any major city in North America. Not as cheap as two decades ago and people are hitting affordability challenges but compared to Toronto? Vancouver? Boston? San Francisco? Not even in the same galaxy.
The culture is its own thing ... it’s distinct from the rest of Québec, though obviously of Québec (kind of like New York is completely different from most of the US but is completely American). Most of my acquaintances from Mexico or South America feel much more at home here than in other parts of Canada.
The food is great, the vibe during the nice weather, the winsome public art murals, graffiti, music, festivals.... just great.
I was thinking about cities that people write songs about. New York, absolutely. Paris, LA, London... I can’t think of a single song about Toronto, but I can fill a playlist with songs about Montréal (mostly from Québec artists of course, but still...).
posted by bumpkin at 12:12 PM on May 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
no. it's aggressively hostile to outsiders, the most racist place ive lived in Canada, and deeply committed to culture wars that you will never understand. Also the winters are terrible.
posted by PinkMoose at 12:47 PM on May 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by PinkMoose at 12:47 PM on May 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: So, I do know French, and I'm not sure why people prefer the French French, I honestly like Quebecois more. It feels down to Earth, even if it's French that stayed stuck in the past. As far as I'm concerned I can handle myself in a conversation in French, I'm still not exactly fluent but I can speak for hours without ending up getting stuck.
As for Latinos, well that's not really what I'm looking for. I just mentioned that because it's like the only place I'd ever concerned about being a minority, but I don't know that people in Montreal really care all that much.
To be honest, thus far I've felt more at home in Toronto than anywhere else. The fast-paced business environment and the general attitude feels more to my liking than elsewhere.
I'm still heading to Montreal anyway, in two weeks I'll be staying there for a week for some work related stuff. Then I'll be heading out over there again with my friends.
I have to say though that the taxes, the silly culture wars and the more socialist policies don't make me very happy. Ontario seems more balanced.
posted by Tarsonis10 at 3:12 PM on May 22, 2022
As for Latinos, well that's not really what I'm looking for. I just mentioned that because it's like the only place I'd ever concerned about being a minority, but I don't know that people in Montreal really care all that much.
To be honest, thus far I've felt more at home in Toronto than anywhere else. The fast-paced business environment and the general attitude feels more to my liking than elsewhere.
I'm still heading to Montreal anyway, in two weeks I'll be staying there for a week for some work related stuff. Then I'll be heading out over there again with my friends.
I have to say though that the taxes, the silly culture wars and the more socialist policies don't make me very happy. Ontario seems more balanced.
posted by Tarsonis10 at 3:12 PM on May 22, 2022
What I've heard from colleagues who have chosen to live on the Quebec side is that the tax difference is more than offset by the provincially-sponsored affordable child care (and lower house prices).
posted by heatherlogan at 3:21 PM on May 22, 2022
posted by heatherlogan at 3:21 PM on May 22, 2022
I'm trying to get my head around the CAQ being socialist. Nope. Not coming into focus.
But you might be happier in a Doug Ford wonderland, at that.
posted by zadcat at 3:45 PM on May 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
But you might be happier in a Doug Ford wonderland, at that.
posted by zadcat at 3:45 PM on May 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I was born in Montreal and lived there for the first half of my life, then moved to Vancouver.
My Mom is in hospital, so I am back in Montreal for long stretches of time, working remotely and watching how the city has changed. The price of housing has risen very much in the past two years, esp in the desirable parts of Montreal. Rents are very high. The price of detached housing as well is very high. It's not yet at the level of current Vancouver prices, but I would say the level of five years ago.
This is no longer the Montreal that I left long ago. I didn't expect it to remain the same, but I am shocked at how much it HAS changed. The laws around rentals appear much more lax in Montreal than they are in Vancouver. There are many renovictions and I read stories about rent increases that are chockingly high. The prices for rentals have increased greatly, and formerly affordable areas, like the Student Ghetto near McGill or Le Plateau are now quite expensive.
I strongly suggest logging into r/montreal on Reddit, and reading the stories there. All the stories. Get to know the things that people rave about, and the things that they don't.
When you spend your week in Montreal, keep your eyes open. You know what you like, and don't like. You also know what you are wishing for, in this potential move.
So take long walks. Explore the neighborhoods that you wish to explore, with a view to move into. I lived in Verdun, Plateau, and West Island. These are all nice areas in their own right, with different price points, and different mixes of people.
Yes the summer festivals are lovely. But the summers are oppressively hot and humid, and the winters are goodness gracious cold and snowy and miserable. And the taxes on purchases are much higher than in the rest of Canada. But the warmth and openness of people makes up for much of this.
At the end of the day, I would suggest this: move. C'mon down. Enjoy the city. Maybe you will love it enough to spend a year there, maybe a decade and maybe forever. It has a vibe of its own.
And also - if things don't work out, there's always the option to return home to the GTA. Or the ROC. After all, we live in a big big country.
Vancouver's nice too, you know :)
posted by seawallrunner at 6:08 PM on May 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
My Mom is in hospital, so I am back in Montreal for long stretches of time, working remotely and watching how the city has changed. The price of housing has risen very much in the past two years, esp in the desirable parts of Montreal. Rents are very high. The price of detached housing as well is very high. It's not yet at the level of current Vancouver prices, but I would say the level of five years ago.
This is no longer the Montreal that I left long ago. I didn't expect it to remain the same, but I am shocked at how much it HAS changed. The laws around rentals appear much more lax in Montreal than they are in Vancouver. There are many renovictions and I read stories about rent increases that are chockingly high. The prices for rentals have increased greatly, and formerly affordable areas, like the Student Ghetto near McGill or Le Plateau are now quite expensive.
I strongly suggest logging into r/montreal on Reddit, and reading the stories there. All the stories. Get to know the things that people rave about, and the things that they don't.
When you spend your week in Montreal, keep your eyes open. You know what you like, and don't like. You also know what you are wishing for, in this potential move.
So take long walks. Explore the neighborhoods that you wish to explore, with a view to move into. I lived in Verdun, Plateau, and West Island. These are all nice areas in their own right, with different price points, and different mixes of people.
Yes the summer festivals are lovely. But the summers are oppressively hot and humid, and the winters are goodness gracious cold and snowy and miserable. And the taxes on purchases are much higher than in the rest of Canada. But the warmth and openness of people makes up for much of this.
At the end of the day, I would suggest this: move. C'mon down. Enjoy the city. Maybe you will love it enough to spend a year there, maybe a decade and maybe forever. It has a vibe of its own.
And also - if things don't work out, there's always the option to return home to the GTA. Or the ROC. After all, we live in a big big country.
Vancouver's nice too, you know :)
posted by seawallrunner at 6:08 PM on May 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Raised in BC, been in Montreal for more than 20 years.
Pros (* applies to Montreal but not necessarily the ROQ)
* Live in two languages
*Amazing festivals
*Great food, good nightlife
*Cultural diversity
Excellent parks
* Strong cultural scene
Relatively low cost of living
Excellent parental leave
Subsidized daycare
*Relatively good transit & bike infrastructure
Relaxed, friendly people
Work to live not live to work
Hot, often humid summers (a plus for me)
Legally enjoy alcohol with your picnic in the park
Cons
Language debates
Bill 21
Bill 96
High taxes
Potholes & never-ending roadwork
Very long, cold winter
Outside of Montreal very little cultural diversity
Difficulty in getting a primary physician
Bizarre tiered school system (English/French/Public/Private)
Mostly terrible beaches, often crowded
You’ll never feel Quebecois no matter how long you live here
Whenever I get fed up with life in Montreal I seriously consider where else I would rather live in Canada. The answer is nowhere. It's far from perfect but it's pretty damn great.
posted by Cuke at 6:50 PM on May 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Pros (* applies to Montreal but not necessarily the ROQ)
* Live in two languages
*Amazing festivals
*Great food, good nightlife
*Cultural diversity
Excellent parks
* Strong cultural scene
Relatively low cost of living
Excellent parental leave
Subsidized daycare
*Relatively good transit & bike infrastructure
Relaxed, friendly people
Work to live not live to work
Hot, often humid summers (a plus for me)
Legally enjoy alcohol with your picnic in the park
Cons
Language debates
Bill 21
Bill 96
High taxes
Potholes & never-ending roadwork
Very long, cold winter
Outside of Montreal very little cultural diversity
Difficulty in getting a primary physician
Bizarre tiered school system (English/French/Public/Private)
Mostly terrible beaches, often crowded
You’ll never feel Quebecois no matter how long you live here
Whenever I get fed up with life in Montreal I seriously consider where else I would rather live in Canada. The answer is nowhere. It's far from perfect but it's pretty damn great.
posted by Cuke at 6:50 PM on May 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
A piece on moving to Montreal and loving it from today's Gazette.
posted by zadcat at 5:30 PM on May 23, 2022
posted by zadcat at 5:30 PM on May 23, 2022
This thread is closed to new comments.
It is a different place to English Canada, how could it not be? I share your concerns about some of the moves that have historically and recently been made regarding language and cultural rights (or requirements), but no jurisdiction is perfect; everywhere has good and bad policies and tendencies.
Ultimately there's no right or wrong decision: it's just about where you want to live and feel comfortable and happy. If I recall correctly, you're fairly young and not partnered or a parent, and you're in a field that has a decent amount of geographic flexibility -- so you've got a great opportunity right now to experience different places and people. Take advantage of it! These are times that you'll look back on for the rest of your life.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:11 AM on May 22, 2022 [1 favorite]