What are the options for a questioning Catholic?
April 22, 2022 6:09 PM
I was talking with someone raised Catholic whose children are now learning the catechism. Trying to answer the children's question, made her realize that she had real doubts about basic tenants like the virgin birth and the resurrection. I'm sure this must be a common experience - I would like to help her find some resources for how she can think about these questions as a Catholic. Or is it even possible to stay Catholic if a person decides they don't believe in some parts of the faith as expressed in the catechism?
My own efforts to find some Catholic answers to these questions led to people who say doubt is normal but the response to doubt is prayer - God will help you find your way back to faith. But that implies that once you have found your faith again, you will fully believe. No space for a faith that includes not believing certain tenants. At least that was how I understood what I was reading - I could be wrong. If I am, then that's what I want to know more about. I'm trying to see if there are respected Catholic voices that support people who have a deep emotional and cultural connection with Catholicism but live in a world with fewer miracles.
And if you faced these question and left the Church as a result, what are the options for someone who want a church that keeps the best part of Catholicism while supporting more diverse views on questions of faith.
Also, if anything in this question is poorly worded or insensitive, please let me know. Obviously, I'm not Catholic or even Christian. The question interested me, both in terms of providing resources for a friend and also as a way of understanding a little bit more about a different faith.
My own efforts to find some Catholic answers to these questions led to people who say doubt is normal but the response to doubt is prayer - God will help you find your way back to faith. But that implies that once you have found your faith again, you will fully believe. No space for a faith that includes not believing certain tenants. At least that was how I understood what I was reading - I could be wrong. If I am, then that's what I want to know more about. I'm trying to see if there are respected Catholic voices that support people who have a deep emotional and cultural connection with Catholicism but live in a world with fewer miracles.
And if you faced these question and left the Church as a result, what are the options for someone who want a church that keeps the best part of Catholicism while supporting more diverse views on questions of faith.
Also, if anything in this question is poorly worded or insensitive, please let me know. Obviously, I'm not Catholic or even Christian. The question interested me, both in terms of providing resources for a friend and also as a way of understanding a little bit more about a different faith.
I'm an atheist. But, in case they haven't come across it, liberation theology (in the Latin American sense of the phrase) is something worth considering and there is a lot of interesting history and books on the topic, though my recommendations are far out of date. One can embrace the good parts while questioning (or directly opposing) the ugly parts. Best wishes.
posted by eotvos at 6:52 PM on April 22, 2022
posted by eotvos at 6:52 PM on April 22, 2022
I was raised Catholic, left the Church for about twenty years, and recently returned. I consider myself a practicing Catholic now. When I decided to return to the Church, I talked to a priest and told him I wasn't sure if it was OK for me to return because there was a lot of doctrine I wasn't sure about. He said it was OK that I didn't understand everything. Even though he used the word "understand," I took that to mean that God and the Church were OK with my struggles with faith and belief. I still struggle, but I don't worry that it means I'm not Catholic.
Now there are definitely some priests who will say there are requirements of belief for being Catholic. It's a legalistic Church in some ways, and you can be denied communion and the other sacraments by a priest who knows about your lack of faith and finds it extreme enough that he wouldn't consider you Catholic. It's not going to be common, but it is a possibility. There's a difference between considering yourself Catholic and representatives of the Church considering you Catholic, and if receiving the sacraments is important to you, that matters. I mean, there are bishops who want Biden to be denied communion because of his support for abortion rights. The idea of a "vote" was absurd - only the bishop of a diocese where Biden attends Mass can deny him communion, but that bishop could deny Biden communion because he is publicly going against Church doctrine. (Father James Martin points out how selective this is, as being pro-death penalty is also against Church doctrine, but nobody talks about denying those politicians communion.)
But most of my experience with priests is that they will do what they can to enable you to remain in the Church despite doubts if that's what you want. I mean, a recent poll showed that 69% of practicing Catholics do not believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation - that the wine and bread become the body and blood of Christ in a nonsymbolic way. That is a central tenet of Catholicism, and it is huge that self-identified Catholics don't believe in it. It's almost like two-thirds of Catholics say they don't believe in God. I've seen a lot of discussion of this in the Catholic press and there is a lot of concern about it, but what I'm not seeing is anyone saying these people should be kicked out of the Church. (The Catholic press I read tends to be leftist though, so there might be people saying this and I don't know about it.)
Anyway, my experience of the Church is that there is a great deal of compassion for people who are doubting. What I would really suggest is that your friend talk to a priest about it. I have talked to a number of priests when I've had doubts, and I've always been brutally honest, and my experience has always been good.
posted by FencingGal at 7:30 PM on April 22, 2022
Now there are definitely some priests who will say there are requirements of belief for being Catholic. It's a legalistic Church in some ways, and you can be denied communion and the other sacraments by a priest who knows about your lack of faith and finds it extreme enough that he wouldn't consider you Catholic. It's not going to be common, but it is a possibility. There's a difference between considering yourself Catholic and representatives of the Church considering you Catholic, and if receiving the sacraments is important to you, that matters. I mean, there are bishops who want Biden to be denied communion because of his support for abortion rights. The idea of a "vote" was absurd - only the bishop of a diocese where Biden attends Mass can deny him communion, but that bishop could deny Biden communion because he is publicly going against Church doctrine. (Father James Martin points out how selective this is, as being pro-death penalty is also against Church doctrine, but nobody talks about denying those politicians communion.)
But most of my experience with priests is that they will do what they can to enable you to remain in the Church despite doubts if that's what you want. I mean, a recent poll showed that 69% of practicing Catholics do not believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation - that the wine and bread become the body and blood of Christ in a nonsymbolic way. That is a central tenet of Catholicism, and it is huge that self-identified Catholics don't believe in it. It's almost like two-thirds of Catholics say they don't believe in God. I've seen a lot of discussion of this in the Catholic press and there is a lot of concern about it, but what I'm not seeing is anyone saying these people should be kicked out of the Church. (The Catholic press I read tends to be leftist though, so there might be people saying this and I don't know about it.)
Anyway, my experience of the Church is that there is a great deal of compassion for people who are doubting. What I would really suggest is that your friend talk to a priest about it. I have talked to a number of priests when I've had doubts, and I've always been brutally honest, and my experience has always been good.
posted by FencingGal at 7:30 PM on April 22, 2022
I'll admit to not having read his work, but your friend may be interested in the work of Hans Küng, as someone who was at odds with the Church on some core theological issues but remained firmly of the belief that the Church is the "right" Church. I had a friend who would say "If Hans Küng can stay, I can stay" (now, granted, she left eventually).
However, it sounds like your friend is having a crisis of the form of "wait, isn't this all a bit silly" not of the form "is the Church a fundamentally flawed institution", which is much more in the vein of Küng's disagreements with the Church. And no amount of Liberation theology, Catholic Social Teaching, the Catholic Worker Movement and so on is going to fix that.
I did go through a phase as a teenager of asking people if they actually believed in transubstantiation and got no takers, just variations on "well, the Church says", including from my dad, who remains extremely Catholic. So clearly "this is silly on its face" doesn't outweigh the "belief is derived from the performance of ritual in a group" thing for everyone.
On some fundamental level, if you're not down with virgin birth and the resurrection, and that's posing problems for you in Catholicism, you're going to have a hard time with approximately every strain of Christianity--there's nothing particular to Catholicism there (and, if anything, Catholics are probably better than average at ignoring the official line). The one exception might be the Quakers who do unprogrammed worship (note: there are also Quakers who do programmed worship; there have been a ton of schisms).
posted by hoyland at 7:33 PM on April 22, 2022
However, it sounds like your friend is having a crisis of the form of "wait, isn't this all a bit silly" not of the form "is the Church a fundamentally flawed institution", which is much more in the vein of Küng's disagreements with the Church. And no amount of Liberation theology, Catholic Social Teaching, the Catholic Worker Movement and so on is going to fix that.
I did go through a phase as a teenager of asking people if they actually believed in transubstantiation and got no takers, just variations on "well, the Church says", including from my dad, who remains extremely Catholic. So clearly "this is silly on its face" doesn't outweigh the "belief is derived from the performance of ritual in a group" thing for everyone.
On some fundamental level, if you're not down with virgin birth and the resurrection, and that's posing problems for you in Catholicism, you're going to have a hard time with approximately every strain of Christianity--there's nothing particular to Catholicism there (and, if anything, Catholics are probably better than average at ignoring the official line). The one exception might be the Quakers who do unprogrammed worship (note: there are also Quakers who do programmed worship; there have been a ton of schisms).
posted by hoyland at 7:33 PM on April 22, 2022
I hope EM will be along soon to give us a brilliant dissertation on theology, but meanwhile . . . I was raised by half-assed Catholics and sent to Catholic schools along with the children of other half-assed Catholics. In my experience, if you purged the Church of all the half-assed Catholics who don't seriously believe in all the things you're supposedly required to believe, the pews would be empty. People do seriously believe in God, but I would say many people harbor doubts about some aspects of the Christ story and most people totally disregard major aspects of Catholic doctrine. For instance, you can look up the statistics, but practically all Catholics are fine with the use of birth control, hardly anyone believes they are actually drinking Christ's blood at Mass, etc.
what are the options for someone who want a church that keeps the best part of Catholicism while supporting more diverse views on questions of faith.
The Episcopal Church.
posted by HotToddy at 8:14 PM on April 22, 2022
what are the options for someone who want a church that keeps the best part of Catholicism while supporting more diverse views on questions of faith.
The Episcopal Church.
posted by HotToddy at 8:14 PM on April 22, 2022
I am an atheist from the get go. But one of my sons went to a Catholic, (Jesuit), high school and then to a Jesuit college.
And I agree with others, that in terms of what you draw from your religion, and how that relates to your life in the world, the Jesuits seem to get it pretty well. Much like my Jewish best friend from high school, that showed me religion isn’t always messed up, and ritual and humility, and family, and service through your religion is a good thing.
Love the community aspect of religions, just can’t do the all-power deity thing.
And, long, Latin filled marriage ceremonies, and conservative Bar Mitzvah’s totally in Hebrew, are similarly irritating.
posted by Windopaene at 8:33 PM on April 22, 2022
And I agree with others, that in terms of what you draw from your religion, and how that relates to your life in the world, the Jesuits seem to get it pretty well. Much like my Jewish best friend from high school, that showed me religion isn’t always messed up, and ritual and humility, and family, and service through your religion is a good thing.
Love the community aspect of religions, just can’t do the all-power deity thing.
And, long, Latin filled marriage ceremonies, and conservative Bar Mitzvah’s totally in Hebrew, are similarly irritating.
posted by Windopaene at 8:33 PM on April 22, 2022
I am your typical (?) Catholic schooled church member, from 1st grade all the way through College. I concur with HotToddy on several points but not all, which of course confirms their point!
There are some very strong beliefs held by some Catholics in my particular geographic area (right to life and a feeling that the current Pope is too liberal) so I can't say what my carefully thought out progressive views are (when I have it hasn't gone well). And let's not even talk about those who get misty eyed about the Latin Mass and don't like the novus ordo (2nd Vatican Council new Mass from 1965).
The Catholic Catechism is an enormous tome. I doubt most Catholics even know what it contains in total. I remember a nun in my 5th grade religion class (Sister Agnes I think) who said that our conscience had to rule our religious life and that we should not let anyone tell us otherwise. And I have had priests on Catholic religious "retreats" list several reasons why nobody should be turned away from the sacrament of Holy Communion at Mass.
I would recommend the "Joshua" series of books by Joseph Girzone, a retired priest. They are fictional treatments of what Christ would/might/could do if he came to an average city/town today. It's great to read a treatment of how the "person" of Christ (stripped of the encrustation of thousands of years and ancient customs and language, etc.) would deal with modern problems. Unfortunately the books aren't that new, so they don't get into our recent (ahemmmm) mega problems.
An interesting point (people can correct me) about the Jesuits and how they are more progressive (despite the fact that I was educated by Christian Brothers). I believe I read somewhere that one of the popes blew it when the Jesuits were trying to convert (or at least evangelize) China. I wonder how it would have gone if they hadn't been throttled.
Something that your friend may want to consider is the deep history of social action by Catholic religious (male and female, nuns, brothers, priests) and lay people. Everything from hospitals to soup kitchens to education, etc. all around the world. I don't think the people who were helped by those programs really care about the theological fine points, and I don't think Jesus would have gotten hung up on them either.
posted by forthright at 8:52 PM on April 22, 2022
There are some very strong beliefs held by some Catholics in my particular geographic area (right to life and a feeling that the current Pope is too liberal) so I can't say what my carefully thought out progressive views are (when I have it hasn't gone well). And let's not even talk about those who get misty eyed about the Latin Mass and don't like the novus ordo (2nd Vatican Council new Mass from 1965).
The Catholic Catechism is an enormous tome. I doubt most Catholics even know what it contains in total. I remember a nun in my 5th grade religion class (Sister Agnes I think) who said that our conscience had to rule our religious life and that we should not let anyone tell us otherwise. And I have had priests on Catholic religious "retreats" list several reasons why nobody should be turned away from the sacrament of Holy Communion at Mass.
I would recommend the "Joshua" series of books by Joseph Girzone, a retired priest. They are fictional treatments of what Christ would/might/could do if he came to an average city/town today. It's great to read a treatment of how the "person" of Christ (stripped of the encrustation of thousands of years and ancient customs and language, etc.) would deal with modern problems. Unfortunately the books aren't that new, so they don't get into our recent (ahemmmm) mega problems.
An interesting point (people can correct me) about the Jesuits and how they are more progressive (despite the fact that I was educated by Christian Brothers). I believe I read somewhere that one of the popes blew it when the Jesuits were trying to convert (or at least evangelize) China. I wonder how it would have gone if they hadn't been throttled.
Something that your friend may want to consider is the deep history of social action by Catholic religious (male and female, nuns, brothers, priests) and lay people. Everything from hospitals to soup kitchens to education, etc. all around the world. I don't think the people who were helped by those programs really care about the theological fine points, and I don't think Jesus would have gotten hung up on them either.
posted by forthright at 8:52 PM on April 22, 2022
I was raised Catholic and my understanding of the ‘rules’ is that it is fine and natural and acceptable to have doubts about the central foundations of Catholicism (which to me include the Transfiguration, Ascension, and the Virgin Birth), as long as one has some hope or faith or desire to someday work through your doubts and/or one is trying to work through them, and in this state one may consider themselves a believer.
However, once these doubts stop being merely doubts and become certainties that the Virgin Birth or the Transfiguration is not true, then one is no longer a member. I believe it is also a sin to be confident that these things are definitely not true, so ostensibly one who becomes a non-believer can repent and return to the state in the original paragraph, so there may be hope for me yet.
Now my family may be a little unusual because I also absorbed that not very Catholic belief has the same power. “Policies” like forbidding birth control are not the same as the Virgin Birth, but just the current interpretation of something else (here sanctity of life)by the current guy who happens to be in charge, so it’s fine to flagrantly disagree with that and act accordingly (as long as you believe that birth control does not interfere with the sanctity of life).
This is the doctrine I absorbed and integrated in my personal brain - ymmv.
posted by Tandem Affinity at 8:53 PM on April 22, 2022
However, once these doubts stop being merely doubts and become certainties that the Virgin Birth or the Transfiguration is not true, then one is no longer a member. I believe it is also a sin to be confident that these things are definitely not true, so ostensibly one who becomes a non-believer can repent and return to the state in the original paragraph, so there may be hope for me yet.
Now my family may be a little unusual because I also absorbed that not very Catholic belief has the same power. “Policies” like forbidding birth control are not the same as the Virgin Birth, but just the current interpretation of something else (here sanctity of life)by the current guy who happens to be in charge, so it’s fine to flagrantly disagree with that and act accordingly (as long as you believe that birth control does not interfere with the sanctity of life).
This is the doctrine I absorbed and integrated in my personal brain - ymmv.
posted by Tandem Affinity at 8:53 PM on April 22, 2022
Hi! I am a Catholic. It is perfectly fine to be questioning - that's why there exist Catholic orders that have very different ideas about God. I would suggest your friend check out the Jesuits.
The thing that personally helped me with various doubts is knowing that many of these doctrines were adopted not through religious causes but to settle essentially religious fights, or to focus the church on ideas. I might come back here and run through these different ones if Eyebrows doesn't jump in, but there's so many current doctrines that were fought over for literally hundreds of years: were those people not Catholics? No, they were still Catholics, Catholics can disagree on things.
I am reminded also of an anecdote with Pope Francis talking to someone. I'm butchering it, but the gist is, he said "Do you repent of [x sin]?" The person said, "No, father, I do not". He said "Do you want to repent of that sin?" "Yes, that would be better, but I don't." "It is a start."
Also, like, you can believe heresies and not be automatically excommunicated. Doubting the truth of something that is hard to believe is not a "willful and persistent adherence" to a heresy. And heresy is also mostly about like, joining a heretical sect. You are not excommunicated if you don't believe in certain things at certain times in your life. People waver and wibble about stuff all the time.
posted by corb at 10:44 PM on April 22, 2022
The thing that personally helped me with various doubts is knowing that many of these doctrines were adopted not through religious causes but to settle essentially religious fights, or to focus the church on ideas. I might come back here and run through these different ones if Eyebrows doesn't jump in, but there's so many current doctrines that were fought over for literally hundreds of years: were those people not Catholics? No, they were still Catholics, Catholics can disagree on things.
I am reminded also of an anecdote with Pope Francis talking to someone. I'm butchering it, but the gist is, he said "Do you repent of [x sin]?" The person said, "No, father, I do not". He said "Do you want to repent of that sin?" "Yes, that would be better, but I don't." "It is a start."
Also, like, you can believe heresies and not be automatically excommunicated. Doubting the truth of something that is hard to believe is not a "willful and persistent adherence" to a heresy. And heresy is also mostly about like, joining a heretical sect. You are not excommunicated if you don't believe in certain things at certain times in your life. People waver and wibble about stuff all the time.
posted by corb at 10:44 PM on April 22, 2022
We are in a unique position today. We live in a religious vacuum, where the Church has definitely failed to provide a convincing answer to the problems we face on a daily basis. On the other hand, there is a huge desire both to deal with those problems in a serious way, and to make sense of religion. Honestly, as a Catholic, the work required to bridge the gap between the words of the Catechism and daily life is 24-7. Having kids is really a helpful thing, as it makes you more honest. But the fact remains that most people "brought up Catholic" have almost nothing to go on (I'm a convert later in life but I include myself too).
That's why I recommend a totally different direction. Get a copy of Luigi Giussani's three-part series, "The Religious Sense", "At the Origin of the Christian Claim", and "Why the Church?".
Don't just gift it to your friend, read it together and compare what he says to your daily experience, things that you both go through in normal life - this is the recommended way of reading these books! - and help each other to freely understand what it means and if it helps you in a real way.
You asked for "respected Catholic voices that support people who have a deep emotional and cultural connection with Catholicism but live in a world with fewer miracles" - Giussani is certainly one of these.
posted by KMH at 10:47 PM on April 22, 2022
That's why I recommend a totally different direction. Get a copy of Luigi Giussani's three-part series, "The Religious Sense", "At the Origin of the Christian Claim", and "Why the Church?".
Don't just gift it to your friend, read it together and compare what he says to your daily experience, things that you both go through in normal life - this is the recommended way of reading these books! - and help each other to freely understand what it means and if it helps you in a real way.
You asked for "respected Catholic voices that support people who have a deep emotional and cultural connection with Catholicism but live in a world with fewer miracles" - Giussani is certainly one of these.
posted by KMH at 10:47 PM on April 22, 2022
There's an essay by Herbert McCabe called 'Doubt Is Not Unbelief' in which he argues that Christian faith is, quite simply, the belief that God loves us. This isn't just the starting-point for faith, it's the whole of faith. There isn't anything else. And beliefs like the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection make no sense outside a belief in God's love.
I can't put this any better than McCabe does, so let me just quote his own words.
I can't put this any better than McCabe does, so let me just quote his own words.
The object of theology is to see the traditional teachings of the church as a unified whole, unified around the gospel that God loves us. Only when we see what the church teaches about sin or grace or the Eucharist or the Trinity as all part of a revelation of the love of God -- only when we see this -- do we begin to understand these doctrines. And the only way to see this is to question them and to question our understanding of them.posted by verstegan at 10:51 PM on April 22, 2022
Quite often we simply cannot see the relevance of some doctrine, or we suspect that its origins lie in some power struggle in the church rather than in the preaching of the gospel. Quite often the thing seems simply unintelligible or daft. It seems to me that the sensible reaction in such cases is neither to accept the doctrine blindly simply because you were told it at school, nor to reject it uncritically for the same reason. The sensible reaction is one of questioning and doubt. It is a reaction that demands a certain amount of work and thought. It is doing theology.
Sometimes the thing will be baffling; sometimes the job of making sense of some teaching will still be quite intractable -- well, you must not expect to solve all problems quickly, and here it seems to me that your acceptance of this doctrine remains dark, your faith still co-exists with doubt in this area. The doctrine in question cannot be any kind of nourishment to your Christian life. It remains dormant for you. But this is not disbelief. I think a startlingly large number of Christians are this way about such absolutely central doctrines as that of the Trinity. It is a pity, though, if you simply say: 'Well that is all very difficult, so let's just ignore it and get back to Our Lady of Fatima or the fellowship of the eucharist.' It is a pity because if you just do that, the chances are that you have an inadequate and infantile view of Our Lady and of the eucharist.
For what it's worth, the Catholic Church counts you as a member if you were ever baptized as a Catholic. There is no way to cancel a Catholic baptism. Your level of belief and practice effect your good standing as a Catholic; as others have said above, your local priest/bishop will decide whether you're welcome to take communion based on how they interpret your lack of faith/crisis of faith if you discuss it with them.
I figure that if they can count you on paper if you've been baptized, then they should accept you how you are. I've spoken to a few Catholics who are like "Well, keep doing the thing, it might work to change your mind" and some who are like "Don't you dare take communion, that's deeply disrespectful to God, but go to Mass anyway if that's the best you can do, definitely talk to your priest." Everyone gets that living your life is complicated. And, it's not like they check your ID at the door-- unless you're in a really small community where the priest presiding and everyone else knows your business, they're not going to know what is up with your belief unless you tell them. So, it's up to your friend's conscience as to whether they are all good to call themselves a Catholic, take communion, etc.
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:41 PM on April 22, 2022
I figure that if they can count you on paper if you've been baptized, then they should accept you how you are. I've spoken to a few Catholics who are like "Well, keep doing the thing, it might work to change your mind" and some who are like "Don't you dare take communion, that's deeply disrespectful to God, but go to Mass anyway if that's the best you can do, definitely talk to your priest." Everyone gets that living your life is complicated. And, it's not like they check your ID at the door-- unless you're in a really small community where the priest presiding and everyone else knows your business, they're not going to know what is up with your belief unless you tell them. So, it's up to your friend's conscience as to whether they are all good to call themselves a Catholic, take communion, etc.
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:41 PM on April 22, 2022
Is it possible to stay catholic even if you don't believe all of it? Data point: I'm not sure I completely believe any of it, but I feel very strongly that I will always be somewhat catholic whether I want to or not. It often hits me in ways that surprise me, how undeniably catholic I still am. I don't take anything terribly literally, but I will always find a lot of this stuff profoundly meaningful.
Could I raise a kid in the faith with that attitude? No idea, haven't tried it, probably won't get the opportunity. If I did, I'd probably go about like this: Tell the stories, tell the kid: some people believe it really happened like this, some people just see it as more of a metaphor, make up your own mind. At the very worst, that leads to an early acquaintance with the concept of metaphor - my sense is a lot more people could use that!
posted by sohalt at 12:51 AM on April 23, 2022
Could I raise a kid in the faith with that attitude? No idea, haven't tried it, probably won't get the opportunity. If I did, I'd probably go about like this: Tell the stories, tell the kid: some people believe it really happened like this, some people just see it as more of a metaphor, make up your own mind. At the very worst, that leads to an early acquaintance with the concept of metaphor - my sense is a lot more people could use that!
posted by sohalt at 12:51 AM on April 23, 2022
As to the question whether you will be accepted into the community with a flaky faith like that - I guess that's pretty regional. Where I am (central Europe), I wouldn't see much of an issue. You get the sense that lots of people are mostly in it for the folklore, luke-warm catholics are kinda the norm. Sure, we have our fundies and they would probably excommunicate me on the spot (I'm also very much pro abortion and gay marriage etc.) , but I never had any issues avoiding them while still participating in quite a lot of Catholicism throughout my life.
(I come from a very catholic family. My brother was an altar boy. My dad sings in the choire. My mum used to be on the parish council, and my dad currently is. I went with the star singers as a kid for many years, dressed up as one of the three wise men, going from house to house to collect money for the mission. I regularly read from the bible in church. Recently I even got asked whether I wanted to run for the parish council myself - they are desperate for younger people; the faith is dying out where I am. I politely declined of course; even I know that would be taking it a bit too far).
When I was a teenager I still went to confession every year, and I told the Priest that I wasn't sure I believed it was all true any more, and I wasn't even sure if I would want it all to be true. He asked if I went to church every Sunday (which I still did at that time; I still go at least once or twice a month actually; I think it's a good way to mark a Sunday and I increasingly appreciate methods to mark time), and he was satisfied with the answer and then told me to pray three Ave Marias, and that was it.
Maybe I'm playing into Anti-Catholic stereotypes here, presenting Catholics as being all about the trappings, the rituals, the surface. That would be a gross misrepresentation of some of the Catholics I know, who properly did their soul-searching, and came away with a profound faith. I respect that deeply. But I also actually appreciate the focus on the trappings (I really like some of those trappings, I'm a great fan of catholic art), it gives you an easy sense of belonging to the community and still quite a lot of freedom to find a personal approach to the metaphysics of it all.
posted by sohalt at 1:31 AM on April 23, 2022
(I come from a very catholic family. My brother was an altar boy. My dad sings in the choire. My mum used to be on the parish council, and my dad currently is. I went with the star singers as a kid for many years, dressed up as one of the three wise men, going from house to house to collect money for the mission. I regularly read from the bible in church. Recently I even got asked whether I wanted to run for the parish council myself - they are desperate for younger people; the faith is dying out where I am. I politely declined of course; even I know that would be taking it a bit too far).
When I was a teenager I still went to confession every year, and I told the Priest that I wasn't sure I believed it was all true any more, and I wasn't even sure if I would want it all to be true. He asked if I went to church every Sunday (which I still did at that time; I still go at least once or twice a month actually; I think it's a good way to mark a Sunday and I increasingly appreciate methods to mark time), and he was satisfied with the answer and then told me to pray three Ave Marias, and that was it.
Maybe I'm playing into Anti-Catholic stereotypes here, presenting Catholics as being all about the trappings, the rituals, the surface. That would be a gross misrepresentation of some of the Catholics I know, who properly did their soul-searching, and came away with a profound faith. I respect that deeply. But I also actually appreciate the focus on the trappings (I really like some of those trappings, I'm a great fan of catholic art), it gives you an easy sense of belonging to the community and still quite a lot of freedom to find a personal approach to the metaphysics of it all.
posted by sohalt at 1:31 AM on April 23, 2022
Since a lot of people have mentioned the Jesuits and it's not like you can just go outside and find some, I thought I'd link to the US Jesuit magazine America. I'm a subscriber, but I think they give you five free articles a month if you're not. It's a good place for finding out about discussions in the Catholic church (mainstream media is awful and often presents just the right-wing Catholics, though there is, as stated above, a long and still-ongoing tradition of leftist activism among Catholics). Commonweal is also a more leftist Catholic magazine, though it's run by laypeople. I believe it also lets people read five articles a month for free. Father James Martin is a liberal Jesuit who has written a lot of books, among them Building a Bridge, which is about LGBT issues and the Church. (I have not read this book, so it's not exactly a recommendation, though I like and respect Father Martin, and a lot of right-wing Catholics think he's terrible, so that's kind of a recommendation.)
I also agree that pretty much any Christian denomination is going to believe in the Resurrection, so if it's important for your friend to be in a faith community that is accepting of whatever she believes, she might look into the Unitarian church, which is very accepting of people of all faith traditions or none. I know atheists who are Unitarians. I once met a Unitarian pastor who was an agnostic.
I did go through a phase as a teenager of asking people if they actually believed in transubstantiation and got no takers, just variations on "well, the Church says", including from my dad, who remains extremely Catholic. So clearly "this is silly on its face" doesn't outweigh the "belief is derived from the performance of ritual in a group" thing for everyone.
Too bad you couldn't talk to Flannery O'Connor who, when told the Eucharist was just a symbol, said, "If it's a symbol, then the hell with it." There is a LOT by theologians on transubstantiation that very few laypeople have actually read, and dismissing it as "silly on its face" without making a real effort to understand why it's a doctrine is a bit offensive, as is the idea that belief in it otherwise "can only be derived from performance of ritual." Really, ALL Christian doctrine is unbelievable and would seem silly if you're just going by what makes sense in the physical world. Atheists are at least consistent.
posted by FencingGal at 5:38 AM on April 23, 2022
I also agree that pretty much any Christian denomination is going to believe in the Resurrection, so if it's important for your friend to be in a faith community that is accepting of whatever she believes, she might look into the Unitarian church, which is very accepting of people of all faith traditions or none. I know atheists who are Unitarians. I once met a Unitarian pastor who was an agnostic.
I did go through a phase as a teenager of asking people if they actually believed in transubstantiation and got no takers, just variations on "well, the Church says", including from my dad, who remains extremely Catholic. So clearly "this is silly on its face" doesn't outweigh the "belief is derived from the performance of ritual in a group" thing for everyone.
Too bad you couldn't talk to Flannery O'Connor who, when told the Eucharist was just a symbol, said, "If it's a symbol, then the hell with it." There is a LOT by theologians on transubstantiation that very few laypeople have actually read, and dismissing it as "silly on its face" without making a real effort to understand why it's a doctrine is a bit offensive, as is the idea that belief in it otherwise "can only be derived from performance of ritual." Really, ALL Christian doctrine is unbelievable and would seem silly if you're just going by what makes sense in the physical world. Atheists are at least consistent.
posted by FencingGal at 5:38 AM on April 23, 2022
And if you faced these question and left the Church as a result, what are the options for someone who want a church that keeps the best part of Catholicism while supporting more diverse views on questions of faith.
It depends on how many doctrines you want to get rid of. If you are able to recite the Nicene Creed without crossing your fingers behind your back, and you want much of the same ritual as the Catholic church, then as suggested Episcopalians (Anglicans) are the closest. In North America they are also very socially liberal. The actual doctrines of Episcopalians are not that different to the doctrines of Catholics but they have a much stronger tradition of interpreting them symbolically and liberally. If you find that your whole Christian faith falls away up to and including lack of faith in God, but you still want religion then the Unitarian Universalists are a go-to for that. But their religious rituals and practices are quite different from Catholic ones.
In both cases, while you are not necessarily asked to believe in the same things as the Catholic Church, they are not 'religion-lite' they are 'religion-different'.
posted by plonkee at 8:26 AM on April 23, 2022
It depends on how many doctrines you want to get rid of. If you are able to recite the Nicene Creed without crossing your fingers behind your back, and you want much of the same ritual as the Catholic church, then as suggested Episcopalians (Anglicans) are the closest. In North America they are also very socially liberal. The actual doctrines of Episcopalians are not that different to the doctrines of Catholics but they have a much stronger tradition of interpreting them symbolically and liberally. If you find that your whole Christian faith falls away up to and including lack of faith in God, but you still want religion then the Unitarian Universalists are a go-to for that. But their religious rituals and practices are quite different from Catholic ones.
In both cases, while you are not necessarily asked to believe in the same things as the Catholic Church, they are not 'religion-lite' they are 'religion-different'.
posted by plonkee at 8:26 AM on April 23, 2022
I hope I'm not running it into the ground, but a couple things I didn't include in my original post:
- I recommend the books by Nadia Bolz-Weber, an ordained Lutheran Minister. As a progressive Catholic she particularly resonates with my thinking. I particularly like "Accidental Saints".
- I also like to mention C. S. Lewis' observation that where churches are organized on a parish system (like Catholicism, but not only) you grow where God has planted you, so to speak. You worship with people like you more or less. But you do not worship with those who joined that particular parish for some philosophical reason or for the personality of the pastor. I think this is part of the tapestry of Catholicism, for what it's worth.
posted by forthright at 12:14 PM on April 23, 2022
- I recommend the books by Nadia Bolz-Weber, an ordained Lutheran Minister. As a progressive Catholic she particularly resonates with my thinking. I particularly like "Accidental Saints".
- I also like to mention C. S. Lewis' observation that where churches are organized on a parish system (like Catholicism, but not only) you grow where God has planted you, so to speak. You worship with people like you more or less. But you do not worship with those who joined that particular parish for some philosophical reason or for the personality of the pastor. I think this is part of the tapestry of Catholicism, for what it's worth.
posted by forthright at 12:14 PM on April 23, 2022
I advise being really careful about books and especially online sources here. The internet is full of extremely online professional Catholic writers and social media personalities who will insist to you that you aren't a real Catholic unless you're at least trying to accept every single official teaching, but as someone who grew up in an intensely Catholic and intensely conservative area, I can tell you that is not at all how offline normie Catholics relate to the faith. All the most devout and conservative Catholics I knew growing up would happily acknowledge that of course the Church will have female priests one day and it'll be a good thing when it happens, although they would have vaguely disapproved of actively pushing for it now. Cordial disagreement with at least a few major teachings is absolutely the normal way the vast majority of Catholics relate to their faith.
That said, Episcopal congregations can be really great, and it's a good option to at least look into for someone who feels emotionally connected to aspects of Catholicism but would rather have female priests and gay weddings.
posted by waffleriot at 12:42 PM on April 23, 2022
That said, Episcopal congregations can be really great, and it's a good option to at least look into for someone who feels emotionally connected to aspects of Catholicism but would rather have female priests and gay weddings.
posted by waffleriot at 12:42 PM on April 23, 2022
It's been comforting to read the posts here... As another questioning progressive who can't shake Catholicism and is struggling with how to share my faith with my teenagers, I need to just note that the tone of responses here is beautifully different than if you'd asked the same question elsewhere. (Thanks, as usual, MeFi.) Yes to so many of the nods above (America magazine, Fr. James Martin, etc.). I hadn't seen him mentioned yet, but Fr. Richard Rohr's perspective is also very interesting. He causes plenty of hand-wringing in the conservative circles, but I find his writing to be very helpful when I'm filled with doubt.
posted by hessie at 7:09 AM on April 25, 2022
posted by hessie at 7:09 AM on April 25, 2022
If you find that your whole Christian faith falls away up to and including lack of faith in God, but you still want religion then the Unitarian Universalists are a go-to for that.
I realise that this suggests that you must be atheist to be Unitarian Universalist. That is not the case. It is a denomination that welcomes theists and atheists and those in between, including people changing their views.
posted by plonkee at 8:41 AM on April 25, 2022
I realise that this suggests that you must be atheist to be Unitarian Universalist. That is not the case. It is a denomination that welcomes theists and atheists and those in between, including people changing their views.
posted by plonkee at 8:41 AM on April 25, 2022
This thread is closed to new comments.
The closest Catholicism comes to any other religion would be Judaism in my experience in that people will culturally identify with it, even be practicing and have a wide range of what they consider Catholic.
There's a wide ranging of opinions of what is considered Catholic even beyond my broad definition, I would look at Jesuit writings: warning I went to Jesuit schools. They're known as more liberal and often fundamentalist or conservative Catholics will say they aren't Catholic or to be Catholic you must be certain things. But I had pro-life priests and nuns teach us, those who had very liberal views on what it was to be Catholic. A quick Google doesn't come up with anything and I don't have any books I went to college with but they were far from fringe, just not fundamentalist Catholics that like to believe that everyone else is wrong. Just because the Pope says it doesn't make it true, it carries a lot of weight but does not make it true.
I am not a practicing Catholic but I know plenty of people who would identify as Catholic who eat meat during Lent, are leftist and otherwise don't adhere to ideals of what many consider the mainstream Catholic Church.
posted by geoff. at 6:42 PM on April 22, 2022