Interested in anecdotes about simplifying divorce
January 29, 2022 8:39 PM Subscribe
My partner and I are planning to get married, and we don't want to customize how the laws of our state apply to us, but we do want to think about how to make our future lives easier if we ever divorce. Suggestions?
We will both come into this marriage with investment accounts and retirement accounts (a non-trivial amount of individual property). Similar salaries. First marriage for both of us. No debt, no children, no vehicles, no real estate, no businesses. We won't have children.
We've read about marriage law in our state (California), and the default rules seem fine. But we know that dividing property in a divorce tends to be messy. If we ever get divorced, we'd like to give those future selves a gift of making that process less messy.
We've already talked with a family law attorney about whether to get a prenuptial agreement, and we're interested in also hearing from ordinary people (aka, not looking for legal advice here), especially people who have gotten divorced in reasonably amicable situations. From a marriage-as-a-legal-agreement perspective, what relatively simple things would you suggest doing before getting married to simplify getting divorced? (For example, making a complete list of premarital separate assets and getting that list notarized?)
We will both come into this marriage with investment accounts and retirement accounts (a non-trivial amount of individual property). Similar salaries. First marriage for both of us. No debt, no children, no vehicles, no real estate, no businesses. We won't have children.
We've read about marriage law in our state (California), and the default rules seem fine. But we know that dividing property in a divorce tends to be messy. If we ever get divorced, we'd like to give those future selves a gift of making that process less messy.
We've already talked with a family law attorney about whether to get a prenuptial agreement, and we're interested in also hearing from ordinary people (aka, not looking for legal advice here), especially people who have gotten divorced in reasonably amicable situations. From a marriage-as-a-legal-agreement perspective, what relatively simple things would you suggest doing before getting married to simplify getting divorced? (For example, making a complete list of premarital separate assets and getting that list notarized?)
I think there's something very romantic about taking a chance on love in the form of marriage when you're young and have few individual assets. However, I'm almost 40 and life looks different: for me as a single woman with a middle class income and inherited assets (very privileged, I know), nothing is as important as financial security. I don't need or expect anything from others but I don't want to lose the beautiful financial stability I have and don't take for granted. Therefore, while I'm sure if I'll ever marry, I am 100% sure that I will have a pre-nup if/when I do. I used to be more generous and trusting but I've learned the hard way when it comes to partners; nowadays financial transparency and mutual commitment to respecting each other's financial values feel sexy as hell -- or at least essential. That said, it sounds like you two share similar financial values and backgrounds so that's a huge plus. I'm sure you've had the hard conversations on potential problems, from one suddenly having debt to unexpected infidelity, and decided what's a dealbreaker and what's not as well as a commitment to working through those challenges. This isn't exactly what you were looking for but it is a vote of confidence from someone with a similar outlook on marriage and maybe money, too.
I'm the kind of person who listens to divorce lawyer interviews on YouTube for fun. (Can't be too prepared, right?) Many are in German but here's an entertaining and insightful interview with James Sexton on The Financial Diet. His books are great too!
posted by smorgasbord at 9:13 PM on January 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm the kind of person who listens to divorce lawyer interviews on YouTube for fun. (Can't be too prepared, right?) Many are in German but here's an entertaining and insightful interview with James Sexton on The Financial Diet. His books are great too!
posted by smorgasbord at 9:13 PM on January 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
I do know people who have divorced amicably. They both realized it wasn't working and went to those "we will give you all the forms" type legal sites and got divorced.
I also know people (well, in this case, parents) who had awful, 5+ year legal battles with astronomical legal costs.
Given that you are both so clear headed about this, I don't think there is any reason not to get a pre-nup. The issue is not that pre-nups are a bad idea, just that most people find them unromantic. I know people both with them, and without them. I ended up getting married without one for Reasons, but would have happily gotten one. The key here I think is simply that if you're both already clear headed enough about this that a pre-nup isn't some big "You Must Not Love Me!!!" type thing, then I think just getting it is by far the simplest route. The issue for most people is that both partners are not necessarily on the same page about this, but they're not willing to walk away from the relationship over this.
posted by wooh at 11:09 PM on January 29, 2022
I also know people (well, in this case, parents) who had awful, 5+ year legal battles with astronomical legal costs.
Given that you are both so clear headed about this, I don't think there is any reason not to get a pre-nup. The issue is not that pre-nups are a bad idea, just that most people find them unromantic. I know people both with them, and without them. I ended up getting married without one for Reasons, but would have happily gotten one. The key here I think is simply that if you're both already clear headed enough about this that a pre-nup isn't some big "You Must Not Love Me!!!" type thing, then I think just getting it is by far the simplest route. The issue for most people is that both partners are not necessarily on the same page about this, but they're not willing to walk away from the relationship over this.
posted by wooh at 11:09 PM on January 29, 2022
As far as the amicably part goes... when my ex-husband and I sat down with the family law clerk to go over and sign the paperwork for our mutually agreed upon divorce, she asked us if we were sure we wanted to, because we got along better than any other people she'd ever had in there doing it.
My advice? Be friends, first. Be the sort of friends who can talk about anything, who stop by for five minutes and end up standing in the yard all night chatting. Have that sort of connection that just keeps bringing you back in the same place, no matter what else goes on in your life.
It gets you through the hellish parts, and brings you right back round to face each other. At age 5, I met him when we rode the bus together, at 15, he became my best friend and the person I loved most in the world, and now, at 45, we've been married and divorced and raised four kids to adulthood and caused each other all sorts of pain... and supported each other through the pain the world has brought us.
And somehow, still, when we're in the same place and start to talk, the world disappears, and we could be there all day and night. Chances are, if the stars aligned and we tried things again - an idea we've talked about - it would work. There's just an awful lot of complications to get through before we could even really consider it.
That? That's amicable.
posted by stormyteal at 11:51 PM on January 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
My advice? Be friends, first. Be the sort of friends who can talk about anything, who stop by for five minutes and end up standing in the yard all night chatting. Have that sort of connection that just keeps bringing you back in the same place, no matter what else goes on in your life.
It gets you through the hellish parts, and brings you right back round to face each other. At age 5, I met him when we rode the bus together, at 15, he became my best friend and the person I loved most in the world, and now, at 45, we've been married and divorced and raised four kids to adulthood and caused each other all sorts of pain... and supported each other through the pain the world has brought us.
And somehow, still, when we're in the same place and start to talk, the world disappears, and we could be there all day and night. Chances are, if the stars aligned and we tried things again - an idea we've talked about - it would work. There's just an awful lot of complications to get through before we could even really consider it.
That? That's amicable.
posted by stormyteal at 11:51 PM on January 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Not from experience with divorce, but from a mindset point view: this is about preparing in case things go wrong. In programming, one writes code such that even unlikely corner cases are covered and there is explicit handling of exceptions. In security, in addition to making sure that everything works even if e.g. a user inadvertently enters problematic input, one has to anticipate deliberate, adversarial behavior.
Think of it as an extension to Murphy’s law; things will go wrong because someone is actively trying to make things go wrong. If you assume that when devising your solutions, then you can prepare much better.
So try to make many thought experiments of things going wrong. You won’t have kids. But what if you have pets? What if you get kids anyway for some unlikely reason? What if you need to take care of someone else? What if one of you gets unemployed, or decides to work less? What if one of you changes their mind and tries to go back on any premarital agreement? And on and on, scenarios of things just going wrong or turning adversarial.
Now, for the romantics, this does not mean that things will go wrong, or that the couple believe things will go wrong, or that they don’t trust each other enough. It means there is a safety net and a reduced burden of uncertainty, freeing up some energy to spend on the relationship.
posted by meijusa at 12:34 AM on January 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Think of it as an extension to Murphy’s law; things will go wrong because someone is actively trying to make things go wrong. If you assume that when devising your solutions, then you can prepare much better.
So try to make many thought experiments of things going wrong. You won’t have kids. But what if you have pets? What if you get kids anyway for some unlikely reason? What if you need to take care of someone else? What if one of you gets unemployed, or decides to work less? What if one of you changes their mind and tries to go back on any premarital agreement? And on and on, scenarios of things just going wrong or turning adversarial.
Now, for the romantics, this does not mean that things will go wrong, or that the couple believe things will go wrong, or that they don’t trust each other enough. It means there is a safety net and a reduced burden of uncertainty, freeing up some energy to spend on the relationship.
posted by meijusa at 12:34 AM on January 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
And by things going wrong, I mean “not as planned”, which can be a very positive thing as well. What if one of you wins the lottery or makes it big in business or inherits the beach house that they have fond memories of spending time with grandma when they were a child. So assets that differ in how they are earned, windfall or tremendous effort by one of you, and by how fungible they are, etc.
You don’t know who something happens to, assume Rawls’ veil of ignorance and go through the scenarios twice, switching roles, so that the prepared solutions work for both of you, regardless of whom an event concerned.
posted by meijusa at 12:50 AM on January 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
You don’t know who something happens to, assume Rawls’ veil of ignorance and go through the scenarios twice, switching roles, so that the prepared solutions work for both of you, regardless of whom an event concerned.
posted by meijusa at 12:50 AM on January 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Do the pre-nup. It is the legal instrument designed to do what you're asking about. It also allows you to negotiate the terms of a potential divorce at a time you have one another's best interests at heart.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:56 AM on January 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 2:56 AM on January 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Full financial disclosure, on paper.
Talk about what's fair and about possible catastrophes; what if 1 person gets very ill, or has an Enron-style meltdown of a retirement account. What if somebody wins the lottery is a good thing to discuss, along with potential inheritance.
We had a casual signed document, with bonus coffee ring, noting that the substantial down payment on the house came from the sale of my pre-marital asset, and that if we split up, that would be taken in to consideration. We split up, I kept the house, and it allowed me to support our kid with no help from my deadbeat ex-. A reasonable pre-nup or any other agreement is as important as one that is bullet-proof.
posted by theora55 at 6:09 AM on January 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Talk about what's fair and about possible catastrophes; what if 1 person gets very ill, or has an Enron-style meltdown of a retirement account. What if somebody wins the lottery is a good thing to discuss, along with potential inheritance.
We had a casual signed document, with bonus coffee ring, noting that the substantial down payment on the house came from the sale of my pre-marital asset, and that if we split up, that would be taken in to consideration. We split up, I kept the house, and it allowed me to support our kid with no help from my deadbeat ex-. A reasonable pre-nup or any other agreement is as important as one that is bullet-proof.
posted by theora55 at 6:09 AM on January 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also, as you age, consider if one has cognitive impairment with major personality changes … which could include an affair with an avaricious new person out to scorch the earth and get every penny. No one thinks this will happen. Unfortunately it can happen.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 7:47 AM on January 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 7:47 AM on January 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
If you want to reduce the fighting over property and support if you got divorced, get a well-done pre-nup.
Some of the most emotionally violent and expensive divorces I have seen were of couples that thought they had a good handshake at marriage concerning separate and shared finances. This can happen because one or both parties is angry (with or without justification), or simply because circumstances have changed to an extent that the agreement no longer could be applied the parties' assets, liabilities and incomes at the time of divorce, or the agreement would be so disfavorable in application to one spouse that he or she simply has to try to get out of it.
Brew-your-own pre-nup-like-things - for you example, like a notarized list of separate assets - can easily be and regularly are worse than nothing.
posted by MattD at 10:43 AM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Some of the most emotionally violent and expensive divorces I have seen were of couples that thought they had a good handshake at marriage concerning separate and shared finances. This can happen because one or both parties is angry (with or without justification), or simply because circumstances have changed to an extent that the agreement no longer could be applied the parties' assets, liabilities and incomes at the time of divorce, or the agreement would be so disfavorable in application to one spouse that he or she simply has to try to get out of it.
Brew-your-own pre-nup-like-things - for you example, like a notarized list of separate assets - can easily be and regularly are worse than nothing.
posted by MattD at 10:43 AM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Having recently finished an relatively amicable divorce, here are some easy documents you can set aside now that might make things easier:
Statements from the day you get married on all accounts. Especially things like 401k, where you have to co-mingle assets.
If you're going to get divorced, do it within 10 years (short term marriage).
If it's easy, open new accounts post marriage, and never mix pre and post marriage money. That makes it easy to differentiate between community and separate property. Bear in mind things like an inheritance is probably separate, not community property.
You can go look at the divorce papers for your county, as there are forms to declare all your assets and liabilities. That can give you a sense of what you might need.
We also attended a cooperative or collaborative divorce class, which was helpful as they gave an overview of things.
posted by skunk pig at 12:11 PM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Statements from the day you get married on all accounts. Especially things like 401k, where you have to co-mingle assets.
If you're going to get divorced, do it within 10 years (short term marriage).
If it's easy, open new accounts post marriage, and never mix pre and post marriage money. That makes it easy to differentiate between community and separate property. Bear in mind things like an inheritance is probably separate, not community property.
You can go look at the divorce papers for your county, as there are forms to declare all your assets and liabilities. That can give you a sense of what you might need.
We also attended a cooperative or collaborative divorce class, which was helpful as they gave an overview of things.
posted by skunk pig at 12:11 PM on January 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by babelfish at 8:47 PM on January 29, 2022 [2 favorites]