Upselling at the Vet...
February 23, 2019 12:44 PM Subscribe
Is it normal for a vet to upsell dental cleaning to an older dog with no tooth issues? Sad, infuriating details inside.
My friend took her dog to Dundas West Animal Hospital in Toronto for a bump on his nose. While there, the vet suggested the dog get his teeth cleaned. He had no issues chewing and showed no pain in its mouth. Far as I can understand, they were just upselling. The dog was 12 years old and had never had his teeth professionally cleaned but also had never had any issues besides plaque that would be normal for that age.
Long story short, they gave the dog an anasthetic (15 lb dog), he went into cardiac arrest, had to be resuscitated twice, was rushed to an ICU at another hospital, and died 24 hours later with a $3500 bill as a chaser. He walked in healthy, but for a little plaque.
I am absolutely livid and think it irresponsible for them to even have suggested the procedure for an elderly dog, but thought I'd ask the hive if this is normal vet procedure.
I'm 50 and have had dogs for 40 of those years. Never had to get a dog's teeth cleaned in my life.
My friend took her dog to Dundas West Animal Hospital in Toronto for a bump on his nose. While there, the vet suggested the dog get his teeth cleaned. He had no issues chewing and showed no pain in its mouth. Far as I can understand, they were just upselling. The dog was 12 years old and had never had his teeth professionally cleaned but also had never had any issues besides plaque that would be normal for that age.
Long story short, they gave the dog an anasthetic (15 lb dog), he went into cardiac arrest, had to be resuscitated twice, was rushed to an ICU at another hospital, and died 24 hours later with a $3500 bill as a chaser. He walked in healthy, but for a little plaque.
I am absolutely livid and think it irresponsible for them to even have suggested the procedure for an elderly dog, but thought I'd ask the hive if this is normal vet procedure.
I'm 50 and have had dogs for 40 of those years. Never had to get a dog's teeth cleaned in my life.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's request -- goodnewsfortheinsane
In my experience, it is very normal for a vet to recommend a yearly cleaning, especially for small dogs with plaque buildup.
My understanding is that small dogs tend to have tooth problems and it can be hard to tell if they really are OK or not, especially if they aren't extremely chill about having their mouth handled, unless they're sedated and can be examined closely. I discovered this with my own older-gentleman rescue dog (also 15 lbs, like your friend's). He did not seem to have problems chewing or mouth pain, but we got his teeth cleaned anyway a couple months after we brought him home. The vet found that 1/3 of his teeth were so rotten that they had to be removed (they were REALLY BAD, but it was very hard to see them when they were in his mouth).
Obviously, there may be many other factors in your friend's case, and I don't mean to say that the vet made all the right choices here (I can't know that). But regular tooth cleaning, including for older dogs, is indeed standard procedure and not a scam.
posted by branca at 12:56 PM on February 23, 2019 [11 favorites]
My understanding is that small dogs tend to have tooth problems and it can be hard to tell if they really are OK or not, especially if they aren't extremely chill about having their mouth handled, unless they're sedated and can be examined closely. I discovered this with my own older-gentleman rescue dog (also 15 lbs, like your friend's). He did not seem to have problems chewing or mouth pain, but we got his teeth cleaned anyway a couple months after we brought him home. The vet found that 1/3 of his teeth were so rotten that they had to be removed (they were REALLY BAD, but it was very hard to see them when they were in his mouth).
Obviously, there may be many other factors in your friend's case, and I don't mean to say that the vet made all the right choices here (I can't know that). But regular tooth cleaning, including for older dogs, is indeed standard procedure and not a scam.
posted by branca at 12:56 PM on February 23, 2019 [11 favorites]
That’s an awful outcome and I’m so sorry for your friend.
That said...my vet has suggested dental cleanings for my dogs every few years for their entire lives. It’s a preventative treatment that can reduce the chance of serious dental problems and infections that can spread to other organs. If the dog walked in healthy, it was the best time to get it done.
I’m around your age and yeah, cleaning a dog’s teeth was unheard of when I started with dogs. But all it takes is seeing one dog needing multiple extractions and having awful breath and crying when he chews to be converted into a believer in dental care for dogs.
Again, I’m so sorry. That is every responsible pet owner’s nightmare.
posted by kimberussell at 12:59 PM on February 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
That said...my vet has suggested dental cleanings for my dogs every few years for their entire lives. It’s a preventative treatment that can reduce the chance of serious dental problems and infections that can spread to other organs. If the dog walked in healthy, it was the best time to get it done.
I’m around your age and yeah, cleaning a dog’s teeth was unheard of when I started with dogs. But all it takes is seeing one dog needing multiple extractions and having awful breath and crying when he chews to be converted into a believer in dental care for dogs.
Again, I’m so sorry. That is every responsible pet owner’s nightmare.
posted by kimberussell at 12:59 PM on February 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
My 12 year old dog just got a tooth cleaning which my vet had recommended for the last few years because of excessive plaque. He's a rescue and came to us at 6 years old with significant build up. The plaque meant that they couldn't really assess his tooth health and his breath was horrible. He ended up having 10 tooth extractions due to decay during the cleaning. He was given bloodwork before the cleaning because there are risks with any anesthesia...did they discuss these risks with her? I trust my vet and didn't feel like it was a hard upsell..rather that it was a general health suggestion that came with risks.
posted by victoriab at 12:59 PM on February 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by victoriab at 12:59 PM on February 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
I agree that paying attention and attending to dental needs is important. My older dog continues to get her teeth cleaned every couple of years. I'm aware of the risk and sweat through it each time. Every Vet I've utilized has encouraged regular cleaning...
The only problem I would see in the situation you described would be if the vet didn't fully explain the risk and potential cost at every step.
Sorry to hear that your friend lost her pup this way...
posted by HuronBob at 12:59 PM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
The only problem I would see in the situation you described would be if the vet didn't fully explain the risk and potential cost at every step.
Sorry to hear that your friend lost her pup this way...
posted by HuronBob at 12:59 PM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
And my dog had it done last year at age 11.
posted by kimberussell at 1:00 PM on February 23, 2019
posted by kimberussell at 1:00 PM on February 23, 2019
My vet suggested other types of cleaning for our elderly dog who had never been anesthetized. The vet said that in an old dog without urgent dental issues, there was a not insignificant risk, especially since there was no history of uneventful anesthesia to inform us about how our dog would do. Having clean teeth is important for dogs, but anesthesia carries significant risk, especially in small dogs and it sounds like that information wasn’t clearly explained.
posted by quince at 1:02 PM on February 23, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by quince at 1:02 PM on February 23, 2019 [5 favorites]
I don’t know if this is common everywhere, but Februrary is pet dental health month at all the vets I’ve ever been to. They offer a discount on the procedure and everyone who comes in for whatever reason gets a reminder about how important dental health is for their pets. So that could be one reason why it was mentioned at this particular vet visit rather than at a check up.
But it is a normal part of pet care these days and my vet has recommended during their yearly check up that all my dogs have a cleaning every few years since they were puppies.
posted by ilovewinter at 1:13 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
But it is a normal part of pet care these days and my vet has recommended during their yearly check up that all my dogs have a cleaning every few years since they were puppies.
posted by ilovewinter at 1:13 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm so sorry for your friend's loss. Yearly dentals are a normal and good thing to do for one's pets. However the vets I know who do them run blood tests beforehand on older animals exactly to prevent the sort of reaction your friend's dog had. I do not know what tests they do, only that this is required for my adult pets to get dentals and they say it's to ensure there's no reaction to the anasthetic. Does your friend have a third-party vet they could talk to in order to find out what these tests are? Then they could check to see if they were done on their dog.
posted by Anonymous at 1:28 PM on February 23, 2019
posted by Anonymous at 1:28 PM on February 23, 2019
Small dogs are phenomenally bad for having terrible teeth and hiding it well, I rescue dogs & we have yet to have an older small dog come our way that didn't need some work done on their teeth. Having said that our vet will not anesthetize any dog over 8 without a what they call a "senior dog panel" to check for potential problems or underlying health issues before hand. Your friend might want to check their receipts to see if such a test was done. Heck my 11 dog is having a biopsy next week & my vet ran not only these tests but tests for how well his blood would clot before even letting us make an appointment for the procedure, just to be sure.
posted by wwax at 2:05 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by wwax at 2:05 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
They run a canine major blood profile before general anesthesia. If you look at the bill for the dental, it should be on there. That would look for infections that contraindicate elective surgery and elevated liver enzymes, etc that would affect the metabolism of drugs used in surgery.
I have had a young dog pass the blood profile with flying colours and nearly die on the table due to a reaction with the anesthesia. My dog is a pug and they are apparently difficult to anesthetize. There are risks with any surgery, no matter how healthy the dog.
If I had to guess, the vet took a whiff of the dogs mouth while examining the nose and suggested a dental. What we consider just bad breath can indicate serious dental disease. Probably not an up sell as the vet was in the dogs face.
So sorry to hear of the dogs loss.
posted by crazycanuck at 2:11 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
I have had a young dog pass the blood profile with flying colours and nearly die on the table due to a reaction with the anesthesia. My dog is a pug and they are apparently difficult to anesthetize. There are risks with any surgery, no matter how healthy the dog.
If I had to guess, the vet took a whiff of the dogs mouth while examining the nose and suggested a dental. What we consider just bad breath can indicate serious dental disease. Probably not an up sell as the vet was in the dogs face.
So sorry to hear of the dogs loss.
posted by crazycanuck at 2:11 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Obviously no one on meta filter can say for sure what was going on in that vet office. I don't think recommending dental Care is anything out of the ordinary, but I do think it is done routinely whether it's necessary or not, and it sounds to me (IANAVeternarian) like better care and more consideration should have been taken to safegaurd this poor pup's health. It must have been absolutely devestating for his humans and they may never get over it. I'm so sorry that happened to them.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:32 PM on February 23, 2019
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:32 PM on February 23, 2019
Response by poster: I genuinely appreciate the answers and condolences. That said, I'm having trouble getting past this:
Dental care is as important for animals as for humans
I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. (Most) Dogs and other animals don't spend their lives eating crap--sugars or other "fake" foods that cause so many issues in human teeth. The majority of animals on the planet do not experience "dental care" beyond the cleaning that comes from the regular chewing of bones and sticks that happens in their normal lives. Dental care for animals only became "standard" in the last decade or two as it's a way for vets to line their pockets and pay their rent.
Yes, some animals can get abscesses, broken teeth, and other issues as part of their daily lives, and when that happens, of course involve your vet. But if you're not feeding your dog crap (junk food and, imo, kibble), there is no reason that his or her teeth cannot sustain the average lifetime of a a dog without being anesthetized and having their teeth cleaned. There's been centuries of dog owning that didn't involve dentistry, not to mention millennia of canine existence.
I apologize as, having just reread my question, my second use of the word "procedure" makes it sound like I was asking if tooth cleaning is standard. I meant more specifically to ask about upselling at the vet, especially for an elderly dog without issues in the affected area.
Thank you.
posted by dobbs at 7:44 PM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
Dental care is as important for animals as for humans
I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. (Most) Dogs and other animals don't spend their lives eating crap--sugars or other "fake" foods that cause so many issues in human teeth. The majority of animals on the planet do not experience "dental care" beyond the cleaning that comes from the regular chewing of bones and sticks that happens in their normal lives. Dental care for animals only became "standard" in the last decade or two as it's a way for vets to line their pockets and pay their rent.
Yes, some animals can get abscesses, broken teeth, and other issues as part of their daily lives, and when that happens, of course involve your vet. But if you're not feeding your dog crap (junk food and, imo, kibble), there is no reason that his or her teeth cannot sustain the average lifetime of a a dog without being anesthetized and having their teeth cleaned. There's been centuries of dog owning that didn't involve dentistry, not to mention millennia of canine existence.
I apologize as, having just reread my question, my second use of the word "procedure" makes it sound like I was asking if tooth cleaning is standard. I meant more specifically to ask about upselling at the vet, especially for an elderly dog without issues in the affected area.
Thank you.
posted by dobbs at 7:44 PM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. (Most) Dogs and other animals don't spend their lives eating crap--sugars or other "fake" foods that cause so many issues in human teeth. The majority of animals on the planet do not experience "dental care" beyond the cleaning that comes from the regular chewing of bones and sticks that happens in their normal lives.
For reference, my cat is going in in a couple of weeks for teeth cleaning and one extraction (and the vet showed me her teeth and explained what the issues were, so I do believe her). She gets high quality food and her teeth brushed every night, and her teeth still aren't great. Like humans, a lot of this is probably genetic. Plus, I'm sure in the wild animals have dental issues, and then die, and it's entirely unremarkable because in nature animals die young regularly. Animals in the wild don't experience medical care either, I don't think you can extrapolate anything from that.
Whether your friend's vet sucked is a whole other matter, of course, but I don't know how you can know in retrospect.
posted by stillnocturnal at 3:22 AM on February 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
For reference, my cat is going in in a couple of weeks for teeth cleaning and one extraction (and the vet showed me her teeth and explained what the issues were, so I do believe her). She gets high quality food and her teeth brushed every night, and her teeth still aren't great. Like humans, a lot of this is probably genetic. Plus, I'm sure in the wild animals have dental issues, and then die, and it's entirely unremarkable because in nature animals die young regularly. Animals in the wild don't experience medical care either, I don't think you can extrapolate anything from that.
Whether your friend's vet sucked is a whole other matter, of course, but I don't know how you can know in retrospect.
posted by stillnocturnal at 3:22 AM on February 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
I am a veterinarian, but I’m not your friend’s veterinarian.
My condolences to your friend for their loss of a beloved pet. It is SO hard when our furry friends leave us.
Dental care for animals only became "standard" in the last decade or two as it's a way for vets to line their pockets and pay their rent.
I just wanted to touch on this briefly. The suicide rate for veterinarians is incredibly high—anywhere from 3.5 to 2x higher than the general population, and it’s in part because of attitudes like this that we are “only in it for the money.” We’re not. If I wanted to make money, I would’ve gone to (human) medical or dental school.
posted by gumtree at 6:21 AM on February 24, 2019 [19 favorites]
My condolences to your friend for their loss of a beloved pet. It is SO hard when our furry friends leave us.
Dental care for animals only became "standard" in the last decade or two as it's a way for vets to line their pockets and pay their rent.
I just wanted to touch on this briefly. The suicide rate for veterinarians is incredibly high—anywhere from 3.5 to 2x higher than the general population, and it’s in part because of attitudes like this that we are “only in it for the money.” We’re not. If I wanted to make money, I would’ve gone to (human) medical or dental school.
posted by gumtree at 6:21 AM on February 24, 2019 [19 favorites]
Yes, some animals can get abscesses, broken teeth, and other issues as part of their daily lives, and when that happens, of course involve your vet. But if you're not feeding your dog crap (junk food and, imo, kibble), there is no reason that his or her teeth cannot sustain the average lifetime of a a dog without being anesthetized and having their teeth cleaned.
In addition to my elderly cat with terrible teeth, our geriatric dog went in for a cleaning (his breath was foul) and they discovered one of his molars had a hole clean through it, leaking pus. There was no way they could have even seen it without putting him under. His quality of life jumped from "I guess he's on his way out" to "this dog is indestructible" once he got it pulled. Yeah, if he'd keeled over dead, we wouldn't have blamed a tooth infection, and probably would never have known about it - he's a 65lb dog and around 14 years old - but it was indubitably affecting his health, and the way we found and fixed it was a routine cleaning under anaesthetic.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:35 AM on February 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
In addition to my elderly cat with terrible teeth, our geriatric dog went in for a cleaning (his breath was foul) and they discovered one of his molars had a hole clean through it, leaking pus. There was no way they could have even seen it without putting him under. His quality of life jumped from "I guess he's on his way out" to "this dog is indestructible" once he got it pulled. Yeah, if he'd keeled over dead, we wouldn't have blamed a tooth infection, and probably would never have known about it - he's a 65lb dog and around 14 years old - but it was indubitably affecting his health, and the way we found and fixed it was a routine cleaning under anaesthetic.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:35 AM on February 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
I meant more specifically to ask about upselling at the vet, especially for an elderly dog without issues in the affected area.
My experience over 15 years as a pet owner with several different vets caring for multiple elderly dogs is that 1) upselling at the vet is not normal; 2) conscientious vets explain the risks of the procedures they recommend, particularly in the case of elderly animals; and 3) canine dental care is standard preventive care these days (and has been for at least a decade).
I'm very sorry for your friend's loss.
posted by somanyamys at 12:07 PM on February 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
My experience over 15 years as a pet owner with several different vets caring for multiple elderly dogs is that 1) upselling at the vet is not normal; 2) conscientious vets explain the risks of the procedures they recommend, particularly in the case of elderly animals; and 3) canine dental care is standard preventive care these days (and has been for at least a decade).
I'm very sorry for your friend's loss.
posted by somanyamys at 12:07 PM on February 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
We just took my 14 year old cat in for his first check up in several years. They recommended some extensive dental work, but did blood tests and an x-ray beforehand to make sure he'd do ok under anesthesia. Unfortunately, the x-ray revealed some problems that turned out to be end-stage cancer, and we ended up putting him down a week later. (In hindsight, he had symptoms, but we put it down to the stress of bringing a new baby home, and figured they'd clear up as he got used to it.)
I had very similar feelings of distrust and upselling when we got the dental estimate to the tune of $2.5-3K (before the x-ray results). But they all disappeared afterwards -- they could have not done the x-ray and I'd be in the same place as your friend, or they could have pushed chemo or surgery, or even "we can do x, y, and z to make him more comfortable for a bit" but instead they said "I'd do the same thing for my kitties, this is the best thing you can do for him."
We also took the dog into the same vet the day after the cat's checkup. The vet checked her teeth, and didn't recommend any dental work.
So, in my experience, they recommend dental work when it's warranted, and do their due diligence to mitigate risk, especially in older animals.
(Sorry this was long -- it all went down last week and it's still pretty fresh.)
posted by natabat at 1:45 PM on February 25, 2019
I had very similar feelings of distrust and upselling when we got the dental estimate to the tune of $2.5-3K (before the x-ray results). But they all disappeared afterwards -- they could have not done the x-ray and I'd be in the same place as your friend, or they could have pushed chemo or surgery, or even "we can do x, y, and z to make him more comfortable for a bit" but instead they said "I'd do the same thing for my kitties, this is the best thing you can do for him."
We also took the dog into the same vet the day after the cat's checkup. The vet checked her teeth, and didn't recommend any dental work.
So, in my experience, they recommend dental work when it's warranted, and do their due diligence to mitigate risk, especially in older animals.
(Sorry this was long -- it all went down last week and it's still pretty fresh.)
posted by natabat at 1:45 PM on February 25, 2019
I know you are hurting and mean well, but you are absolutely WRONG when you say that dogs don't need dental care until there mouths have become so infected and painful that they stop eating. No! no! No!!!! Please don't believe this! By the time a dog stops eating due to dental pain, he or she has been in pain for months or years! Small breed dog in particular are very prone to periodontal disease as the have the same number of teeth as large dogs in a much smaller space and don't tend to chew as much( hmmm maybe because the mouth is sore??) if a dog is hungry he will eat until the pain is excruciting. Please don't wait for this to happen to your dog!
posted by morchella at 10:49 PM on February 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by morchella at 10:49 PM on February 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
The dog having a reaction to the anaesthetic is heartbreaking, for sure, and the vet should have discussed the risks with the owner beforehand. My elderly cat was having serious pain from her decaying teeth, and we tried to get them pulled, but they just couldn’t stabilize her under anaesthesia and the vet bailed out rather than risk it. We got lucky - it was touch and go for a bit, there. But I knew the risks and it was worth the attempt, and she ended up needing pain meds for the remaining year or so of her life.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:52 PM on February 23, 2019 [11 favorites]