Can a non-believer convert to Judaism?
February 7, 2019 11:01 AM
I was raised non-religiously in a nominally Catholic family, but I've never believed in God. However, I went to college at a Jewish university, my ex-husband was Jewish, my social circle is predominately Jewish, and my current boyfriend is Jewish. I've been Jewish-adjacent for decades. When I married my ex, I didn't convert because of the atheism thing. But my boyfriend asked me to marry him yesterday, and this loud, clear voice in my head boomed "you should convert." But can I?
My now-fiance is not observant at all on a regular basis, but we celebrate Passover and host a Seder every year, and that has actually become one of the most important and meaningful holidays in my life. (He also observes Yom Kippur but I've never done that myself.) But we don't keep kosher, we don't observe the sabbath on Fridays, we don't go to temple - we're pretty darn secular. But our identity as a Jewish family is very strong, even though I'm not an official member of the tribe.
So now that we're getting married, it just feels so right to me to convert - I just don't know how to get around not believing in God. Isn't that just a total non-starter? Would any rabbi remotely consider even talking to me about it? Can you convert to reform Judiasm (if we were to go to temple it would definitely be reform)?
I live in NYC which I imagine would at least give me lots of options, but I just don't know where to start. So I would love to get some input from folks who've been in similar shoes.
I am so appreciative of any and all advice you may have!
My now-fiance is not observant at all on a regular basis, but we celebrate Passover and host a Seder every year, and that has actually become one of the most important and meaningful holidays in my life. (He also observes Yom Kippur but I've never done that myself.) But we don't keep kosher, we don't observe the sabbath on Fridays, we don't go to temple - we're pretty darn secular. But our identity as a Jewish family is very strong, even though I'm not an official member of the tribe.
So now that we're getting married, it just feels so right to me to convert - I just don't know how to get around not believing in God. Isn't that just a total non-starter? Would any rabbi remotely consider even talking to me about it? Can you convert to reform Judiasm (if we were to go to temple it would definitely be reform)?
I live in NYC which I imagine would at least give me lots of options, but I just don't know where to start. So I would love to get some input from folks who've been in similar shoes.
I am so appreciative of any and all advice you may have!
Would any rabbi remotely consider even talking to me about it?
Absolutely, yes. This is a very very common thing to talk to a rabbi about. Many synagogues even hold classes ("introduction to Judaism", "interfaith couples workshop", stuff like that) that might be a particularly easy way to start thinking about things. I've noticed that there are two flavors of intro classes though - there are the reform/reconstructionist-type, but also the more dogmatic orthodox/Chabad-type. You probably want the former, but outside of synagogues I've noticed that most classes are the latter.
I've heard from stricter rabbis (specifically at the above more-dogmatic classes) that they won't perform conversions that are purely for marriage (as in "I have to convert so that my in-laws accept me," not "I want my family to be a Jewish family"), but outside of that, having an interest in Judaism and wanting to be a Jew are the only things you really need to qualify to start a conversion process.
posted by mosst at 11:13 AM on February 7, 2019
Absolutely, yes. This is a very very common thing to talk to a rabbi about. Many synagogues even hold classes ("introduction to Judaism", "interfaith couples workshop", stuff like that) that might be a particularly easy way to start thinking about things. I've noticed that there are two flavors of intro classes though - there are the reform/reconstructionist-type, but also the more dogmatic orthodox/Chabad-type. You probably want the former, but outside of synagogues I've noticed that most classes are the latter.
I've heard from stricter rabbis (specifically at the above more-dogmatic classes) that they won't perform conversions that are purely for marriage (as in "I have to convert so that my in-laws accept me," not "I want my family to be a Jewish family"), but outside of that, having an interest in Judaism and wanting to be a Jew are the only things you really need to qualify to start a conversion process.
posted by mosst at 11:13 AM on February 7, 2019
Jewish person here. Yes! Talk to a Reform rabbi! Talk to more than one. Google/ask around to see which are the super-liberal congregations in your area and dive into the discussion.
posted by BlahLaLa at 11:15 AM on February 7, 2019
posted by BlahLaLa at 11:15 AM on February 7, 2019
If you do convert, you wont be alone.
Pew research shows about 89% of American Jews believe in god.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 11:17 AM on February 7, 2019
Pew research shows about 89% of American Jews believe in god.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 11:17 AM on February 7, 2019
I can tell you straight up that the Reconstructionist movement in Judaism is completely unconcerned with God, or at least with the traditional Jewish version of Yahweh. To them, that's not what being Jewish is about. My family belonged to a synagogue where they talked openly about not believing in God at High Holy Day services -- Society for the Advancement of Judaism, of SAJ as it was fondly known. I don't know what they're like now, but you might want to check them out.
My cousin also belongs to a great Reconstructionist synagogue with a rabbi who's a convert to Judaism. MeMail me if you like and I can get the information from her.
posted by holborne at 11:18 AM on February 7, 2019
My cousin also belongs to a great Reconstructionist synagogue with a rabbi who's a convert to Judaism. MeMail me if you like and I can get the information from her.
posted by holborne at 11:18 AM on February 7, 2019
old joke—
Q: What do you call a Jew who doesn't believe in god?
A: a Jew
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:20 AM on February 7, 2019
Q: What do you call a Jew who doesn't believe in god?
A: a Jew
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:20 AM on February 7, 2019
Maybe also read about Humanistic Judaism, which is really, really explicit about identification with the community and its culture mattering more than either belief or strict observance.
But, yes, like other people are saying, odds are good of finding a Reform temple where you'll be welcome. I know other converts to Reform Judaism whose religious life sounds a lot like yours.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:46 AM on February 7, 2019
But, yes, like other people are saying, odds are good of finding a Reform temple where you'll be welcome. I know other converts to Reform Judaism whose religious life sounds a lot like yours.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:46 AM on February 7, 2019
Judaism is not, primarily, a faith-based religion. It is action-based. There are 616 mitzvot* — if you perform them, no one will ask or care why, particularly in a Reform, Reconstructionist or Humanistic setting.
* Don't be daunted by the large number. Some of them are automatic, some of them cannot be performed any more (so don't count), and some of them you wouldn't think of doing (prohibitions against incest are spelled out at least 20 ways). Furthermore, the more liberal branches of Judaism offer a lot of personal choice.
posted by ubiquity at 11:57 AM on February 7, 2019
* Don't be daunted by the large number. Some of them are automatic, some of them cannot be performed any more (so don't count), and some of them you wouldn't think of doing (prohibitions against incest are spelled out at least 20 ways). Furthermore, the more liberal branches of Judaism offer a lot of personal choice.
posted by ubiquity at 11:57 AM on February 7, 2019
I've got a rabbi (dear friend) in Portland, OR who is just the guy you're looking for if you need a referral to start. Perhaps he knows someone in your area.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:03 PM on February 7, 2019
posted by Sophie1 at 12:03 PM on February 7, 2019
Yep. Talk to your local Reform rabbis. Nothing you've described is a problem at all.
posted by Making You Bored For Science at 12:05 PM on February 7, 2019
posted by Making You Bored For Science at 12:05 PM on February 7, 2019
There is nothing akin to a Nicene Creed in Judaism, and no one will demand that you profess a specific belief in God in order to convert. However, I do think there is an ethical mandate inherit in conversion -- after all, conversion to Judaism is not the same as joining a club. You should be certain in your heart of hearts that you wish to be one with the Jewish people, and that even if your atheism is along the lines of "I don't believe in a physical entity of God, and cannot sincerely pray to a God", that you can have some belief in the God of the Bible as perhaps a representation of the mandates of Judaism. Keep in mind that Judaism does not teach that you are punished or sent to a hell for violating the rules, that God gave everyone free will to make choices. If you are actually disgusted at the idea of God, or would be averse to reading the Torah, then conversion would not be ethical, as even in Reform temples a portion of the Torah is read and discussed each week. Reform temples are very welcoming to non-Jews and people of all lifestyles and walks of life, so you are not required to convert in order to be involved with a Reform congregation. If you do wish to convert, then before even enrolling in conversion classes, I recommend you read the Book of Ruth in the Bible. Ruth (a Moabite) was considered a convert to Judaism, and her conversion consisted of saying to her mother-in-law, "I will go where you go. Your people will be my people, and your God will be my God." Most Reform rabbis would say that the God Ruth was referring to was basically the laws and traditions of Judaism, and a sensation of wonder at the universe. The rest of conversion in modern times is learning all the holidays and traditions of Judaism, and usually writing a sort of term paper on some aspect of the Bible, and an essay about why you wish to convert.
BTW there are actually 613 Mitzvot, not 616 as someone said above. And indeed many cannot possibly apply to today's world, and many others are simply not practical or downright baffling (such as not wearing clothes made of two different materials e.g. cotton/poly blends?). In Reform congregations when reading a Torah portion regarding various Mitzvot (most are contained in the Book of Leviticus) the discussion includes why might such things have been important to ancient Hebrews. The Kosher laws as described in Leviticus 11 are followed to at least some degree by many Reform and Reconstructionist Jews, though not all. Many feel it is part of being one with the Jewish people.
posted by RRgal at 12:43 PM on February 7, 2019
BTW there are actually 613 Mitzvot, not 616 as someone said above. And indeed many cannot possibly apply to today's world, and many others are simply not practical or downright baffling (such as not wearing clothes made of two different materials e.g. cotton/poly blends?). In Reform congregations when reading a Torah portion regarding various Mitzvot (most are contained in the Book of Leviticus) the discussion includes why might such things have been important to ancient Hebrews. The Kosher laws as described in Leviticus 11 are followed to at least some degree by many Reform and Reconstructionist Jews, though not all. Many feel it is part of being one with the Jewish people.
posted by RRgal at 12:43 PM on February 7, 2019
If you are actually disgusted at the idea of God, or would be averse to reading the Torah, then conversion would not be ethical, as even in Reform temples a portion of the Torah is read and discussed each week.
And yet, some of us sitting in Shul/Temple are atheist and/or adverse to reading the Torah (or at least parts of it), including born-Jews. I don't think it would be unethical to convert as an atheist/agnostic.
The exact conversion process will differ by movement (and somewhat by region). I converted in the Reform movement in Canada, which I gather is a little more conservative than the Reform movement in the US. We discussed belief in God during our year-long class. Converts in Canadian Reform Judaism (unlike born-Jews) are expected to not be atheist, but can be agnostic (not knowing if there is a God). I felt like the rabbis would not convert someone who denied the possibility of a God, but when they asked me about my belief, I told the truth: I don't like to define the divine, if it exists. I just attended a panel on "Jews by Choice" where another convert told a similar story: he's never experienced what other people describe as "faith", and he's not sure about God. But he's also committed to living a Jewish life and is one of the most active members of our synagogue (and our best Hagbah).
As noted above, more emphasis may be placed on that "living a Jewish life" than faith - and there isn't just one way to do so. In Reform Judaism, this doesn't necessarily mean keeping a kosher home (though some do) or a traditional Shabbat, but is signaled by participating actively in the Jewish community (often by attending synagogue, but could also be volunteering, attending social events), having some kind of Shabbat practice, celebrating major holidays, etc. I converted as an agnostic who has never kept Kosher and who plays video games on Shabbos (it's really relaxing) - but these weren't issues to the Beit Din. They care more about whether I had thought about my shabbat practice than exactly what it is.
Converting is harder if your partner isn't interested in being involved in the Jewish community. My partner was raised secular, but became more religious as he got older and started attending synagogue regularly. That was a huge support for me. Locally, our Reform conversion program also expects Jewish partners to take the same classes (I think they are afraid of creating 'mixed' marriages were the Jew-by-Choice knows about the religion but the born-Jew doesn't). If your partner is on board for going through this process with you and also becoming more active in the Jewish community, that can make your journey much easier.
posted by jb at 1:30 PM on February 7, 2019
And yet, some of us sitting in Shul/Temple are atheist and/or adverse to reading the Torah (or at least parts of it), including born-Jews. I don't think it would be unethical to convert as an atheist/agnostic.
The exact conversion process will differ by movement (and somewhat by region). I converted in the Reform movement in Canada, which I gather is a little more conservative than the Reform movement in the US. We discussed belief in God during our year-long class. Converts in Canadian Reform Judaism (unlike born-Jews) are expected to not be atheist, but can be agnostic (not knowing if there is a God). I felt like the rabbis would not convert someone who denied the possibility of a God, but when they asked me about my belief, I told the truth: I don't like to define the divine, if it exists. I just attended a panel on "Jews by Choice" where another convert told a similar story: he's never experienced what other people describe as "faith", and he's not sure about God. But he's also committed to living a Jewish life and is one of the most active members of our synagogue (and our best Hagbah).
As noted above, more emphasis may be placed on that "living a Jewish life" than faith - and there isn't just one way to do so. In Reform Judaism, this doesn't necessarily mean keeping a kosher home (though some do) or a traditional Shabbat, but is signaled by participating actively in the Jewish community (often by attending synagogue, but could also be volunteering, attending social events), having some kind of Shabbat practice, celebrating major holidays, etc. I converted as an agnostic who has never kept Kosher and who plays video games on Shabbos (it's really relaxing) - but these weren't issues to the Beit Din. They care more about whether I had thought about my shabbat practice than exactly what it is.
Converting is harder if your partner isn't interested in being involved in the Jewish community. My partner was raised secular, but became more religious as he got older and started attending synagogue regularly. That was a huge support for me. Locally, our Reform conversion program also expects Jewish partners to take the same classes (I think they are afraid of creating 'mixed' marriages were the Jew-by-Choice knows about the religion but the born-Jew doesn't). If your partner is on board for going through this process with you and also becoming more active in the Jewish community, that can make your journey much easier.
posted by jb at 1:30 PM on February 7, 2019
There are indeed 613 mitzvot and the very first one is "to know that God exists". The more pertinent question is not does Judaism as strictly interpreted require you to believe in God but rather who cares what Judaism as strictly interpreted requires. More liberal denominations such as Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist, etc. honestly maybe even Conservative do not actually expect their members to follow all the mitzvot. I'm sure you could find a rabbi in one of those denominations who would convert you.
posted by phoenixy at 1:32 PM on February 7, 2019
posted by phoenixy at 1:32 PM on February 7, 2019
Reform Judaism - American or Canadian - also has approaches to halacha (Jewish law, and those 613 mitzvot) and Torah than Conservative or Orthodox Judaism. (Links are from ReformJudaism.Org, which also has a whole section on conversion).
posted by jb at 1:36 PM on February 7, 2019
posted by jb at 1:36 PM on February 7, 2019
The Kosher laws as described in Leviticus 11 are followed to at least some degree by many Reform and Reconstructionist Jews, though not all. Many feel it is part of being one with the Jewish people.
And, just to be clear, many don't. Maybe we don't have to grind that particular axe here.
posted by The Bellman at 1:36 PM on February 7, 2019
And, just to be clear, many don't. Maybe we don't have to grind that particular axe here.
posted by The Bellman at 1:36 PM on February 7, 2019
No one knows what the 613 mitzvot are. They can't figure out how they are organized, or what counts as one mitzvot or another.
It is true that there is one declaration of faith, and it is: "Hear, O Israel, God is Our God, and God is One." Which means you really aren't supposed to not believe in lots of gods, just the one (which you may or may not be sure about).
Lack of belief really is different from the certainty of atheism. I don't believe in a God who would be anything like that in a lot of Jewish minds, and that was no barrier to the mikvah. But I also don't believe that there isn't a God. I believe that we (humans) are incapable of knowing - and my Rabbi knows that. Which still makes me more faithful than at least one of the regular attendees at my synagogue, who is a convinced atheist (and everyone knows that, too - he's a lovely guy.)
posted by jb at 1:46 PM on February 7, 2019
It is true that there is one declaration of faith, and it is: "Hear, O Israel, God is Our God, and God is One." Which means you really aren't supposed to not believe in lots of gods, just the one (which you may or may not be sure about).
Lack of belief really is different from the certainty of atheism. I don't believe in a God who would be anything like that in a lot of Jewish minds, and that was no barrier to the mikvah. But I also don't believe that there isn't a God. I believe that we (humans) are incapable of knowing - and my Rabbi knows that. Which still makes me more faithful than at least one of the regular attendees at my synagogue, who is a convinced atheist (and everyone knows that, too - he's a lovely guy.)
posted by jb at 1:46 PM on February 7, 2019
Oh, also a hearty Mazal Tov to you on getting engaged!!!
posted by Sophie1 at 2:27 PM on February 7, 2019
posted by Sophie1 at 2:27 PM on February 7, 2019
Mazel tov! (same as Mazal Tov, but in Yiddish instead of Hebrew)
Chiming in to reinforce the part about Judaism being action-based and not faith-based. You don't be Jewish so much as you do Jewish, and depending on your community there are a lot of different ways to do Jewish. For me the most important acts of Judaism have always been festive family dinners and knowing the songs the people around me are singing. (Which has made it hard for me to "do Jewish" now that I'm grown up and no longer live with my parents; that's something I'm in the process of figuring out.)
posted by WizardOfDocs at 3:09 PM on February 7, 2019
Chiming in to reinforce the part about Judaism being action-based and not faith-based. You don't be Jewish so much as you do Jewish, and depending on your community there are a lot of different ways to do Jewish. For me the most important acts of Judaism have always been festive family dinners and knowing the songs the people around me are singing. (Which has made it hard for me to "do Jewish" now that I'm grown up and no longer live with my parents; that's something I'm in the process of figuring out.)
posted by WizardOfDocs at 3:09 PM on February 7, 2019
Another atheist Jew says: welcome. I'm profoundly suspicious of religion but have never felt any need to disavow my Jewish identity because Judaism feels no need to disavow atheist-since-middle-school me. I'm not sure about the process of converting while atheist (will the Rabbi ask you about your beliefs? I'd guess?) but as far as the basic concern of is it fine to be Jewish and not believe in god or God or g-d, you're good (or g--d.)
posted by Smearcase at 4:00 PM on February 7, 2019
posted by Smearcase at 4:00 PM on February 7, 2019
if you're in NYC you might enjoy checking out Congregation Beit Simchat Torah, if you haven't already. They are a *very* welcoming reconstructionist synagogue with an inspiring history, and many congregants from other faith traditions. If you visit their facebook page you can also scope things out by watching the live stream of shabbat services every friday at 6:30. I watch often as I'm no longer nearby..
posted by elgee at 6:30 PM on February 7, 2019
posted by elgee at 6:30 PM on February 7, 2019
I’m a non-believer and converted to Judaism. I found no problem with acceptance by the rabbis at the reform synagogue I attended in Texas. I was not alone either in our conversion class—we were all worried about that! But there are so many reasons we were all there, the definition of god is such a small piece of it though. I’ve been served well by just assuming god is the whole of our universe and whatever quirky logic it has. There’s room for that, or not believing in any of it.
posted by kyliej at 11:51 PM on February 7, 2019
posted by kyliej at 11:51 PM on February 7, 2019
I'm an atheist, and I still consider myself Jewish though I don't practice. While sight-seeing many years ago, my husband and I stopped into one of the US's oldest synagogues while the rabbi happened to be talking to a visiting school group. He was a great speaker, so we listened in for a bit. He asked the children what they thought the biggest difference was between Christianity and Judaism. After fielding their answers, he told them that he thought the biggest difference was faith -- that Christianity requires it, and that Judaism doesn't. He talked about the Jewish tradition of closely reading, debating, and questioning religious texts, and how it has contributed to Jewish intellectualism in secular life, as well. As a non-practicing, atheist Jew, I don't know how far to take his perspective or how acceptable it would be to more religious Jews. But I felt proud hearing a rabbi explain that Jews don't have to take anything on faith -- that it's appropriate and Jewish to question and think independently -- and it's made me feel a little extra pride in Judaism ever since.
Also -- since I missed it if it's already been mentioned above, and though you're less likely to run into this if you'd be Reform -- note that "Some traditional rabbis may actively discourage potential converts by turning them away three times. This is a test of how sincere the would-be convert is in wishing to become Jewish. Other rabbis are more welcoming right from the initial contact."
posted by daisyace at 9:51 AM on February 8, 2019
Also -- since I missed it if it's already been mentioned above, and though you're less likely to run into this if you'd be Reform -- note that "Some traditional rabbis may actively discourage potential converts by turning them away three times. This is a test of how sincere the would-be convert is in wishing to become Jewish. Other rabbis are more welcoming right from the initial contact."
posted by daisyace at 9:51 AM on February 8, 2019
I just want to say thank you for this thread, because I am in a very similar boat (with added complication of raising a child Jewish)! My personal feeling is that I'm so far comfortable with remaining Jew-adjacent (or Ger Toshav). Partially, it's because I don't feel right converting if I'm not actually joining a synagogue, and I'm not ready for that. And it's also due to uncomfortable feelings with all organized religion that would make me feel hypocritical and fake if I converted. Memail me if you'd like to discuss the journey!
posted by schwinggg! at 4:23 PM on February 8, 2019
posted by schwinggg! at 4:23 PM on February 8, 2019
Hi! It me! I was raised vaguely-Reform, mostly secular. I went with my vaguely-agnostic raised-Catholic partner to a Reform Introduction to Judaism course shortly after we got engaged. They were more trans-friendly, accessible, and generally cool than I'd remembered, also my partner got super into it, we joined the temple, and she goes to services almost every week. She's talking with a rabbi about converting.
there's a joke about observance: "Mr Levi goes to services to talk to Gd. Mr Cohen goes to services to talk to Mr Levi." it's legit to be involved in a synagogue or temple for community and singing and ritual, without theism.
posted by bagel at 9:44 AM on February 9, 2019
there's a joke about observance: "Mr Levi goes to services to talk to Gd. Mr Cohen goes to services to talk to Mr Levi." it's legit to be involved in a synagogue or temple for community and singing and ritual, without theism.
posted by bagel at 9:44 AM on February 9, 2019
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:12 AM on February 7, 2019