How to manage internalized sexism and gender-based anguish
March 2, 2017 8:25 PM Subscribe
A very dear friend of mine has suffered from severe anxiety and depression for a long time. One of the things that plagues him is feelings of self hatred, and being debilitated by the gender roles he’s expected to live up to (cis hetero male). Does anyone else feel this way? Any advice on how to manage these feelings?
I’m going to present a series of quotes from him (with his permission) that I think summarize his headspace. I find myself unable to provide impactful advice, because I don’t entirely comprehend his pain myself, and as a cis-hetero woman I feel unable to empathize entirely. He is taking medication and attending therapy, which seem to be helping him be more lucid.
“ I'm quite familiar with male sexual entitlement and how terrible and disgusting and beastly and dangerous men are. I've been beaten and sexually assaulted/harassed myself, and I've firsthand seen my father [commit extreme physical violence against] my mother. Now, obviously I haven't experienced these things as much as a lot of women have, but I'm well aware that men are dangerous, disgusting creatures, and I'm terrified that because of that the best thing for everyone is if I hide myself away alone and unhappy. That that's what the world wants. Given that, I'd be pretty daft not to be envious of the social freedom that I perceive (rightly or wrongly) women to have.”
“I really don't think I have disdain for women. I have disdain for men. I am envious of women because they are better people than men.”
“I'm not looking for men to tell me I'm right and reinforce my views… I'm looking, desperately looking, for people to convince me that my view of the world is wrong. I want to believe that I really do have an equal opportunity to participate, that women don't enjoy special privileges, that there's no reason for me to be envious of them, but for some reason whenever someone tries to do that I push back against it. Maybe I'm just an over-argumentative person. I don't know.”
“ I just have this belief that women don't really desire men the way men desire them, because men are just inherently less desirable, and that reality has implications that ripple throughout all of the issues we've talked about. Fundamentally, so my thinking goes, women have options, different choices and modes of life they can choose and still find acceptance and intimacy. Men do not. I could go on and on about this, but the only thing that's really relevant or constructive things to say about it here are that (1) this "reality" thwarts a fundamental desire of mine (to be desired) and (2) it puts me into constant panic that I need to be desperate because this is as good as it's ever gonna be. Honestly it's a huge source of anxiety for me, and a huge drag on my self esteem. Women are more complete human beings than I am, and they prefer looking at and touching women anyway (by their own admission). So what am I exactly? A drone.”
“ I don't think that women really desire men as physical beings. This has borne itself out in most of my relationships as a distinct lack of focus from my partners on well...my body. It just seems like an afterthought, something that gets in the way of or maybe augments what they feel like the real connection is. Concrete examples: By and large, there isn't a lot of touching that isn't initiated by me, and it subtly goes on in such a way that I'm convinced that what they touching or looking at isn't my body but me as a thing that is touching or looking at them. In other words, I fear that women's desire isn't really for me as a physical being, but for me to desire them as a physical being (among other things).”
“I guess, I feel like straight women don't really want to touch or look at the male body. I've certainly heard a lot of straight women in my life say things like, "Oh I much prefer looking at naked women, but I'm still attracted to men." To put it mildly, I don't think they realize how much this hurts. I mean, can you imagine how straight women would feel if significant numbers (even a majority) of straight men said the same thing? Well, that's how I feel when they say things like that. Like, I'm an ugly, deformed troll monster of a human being. No one wants to touch or look at me.”
“The usual response to my bringing up this insecurity is to point out how oppressive it is to be constantly drowning in unwanted physical attraction to your body, like a dearth of physical desire is not something I should find hurtful because I wouldn't want to live in a woman's reality anyway. I don't know why, but something about this response makes me rather angry, like I'm being lectured about how I don't have a full appreciation for women's reality when they've made no apparent attempt to understand mine. It makes me really unsympathetic and annoyed, especially because I go so far out of my way to make sure that women don't notice I'm attracted to them. Like, not only do I have to hide my desire, but I have to do so while continually (1) being made to feel guilty about having it and (2) receiving not even a little of it myself.”
On potentially being genderqueer, or fulfilling desires to appear more feminine, wear makeup, wear womens’ clothing:
“Okay, this brings me to the question of presentation. I feel pretty rigidly locked into my presentation now for a few reasons. First, testosterone is a hell of a chemical, and the damage is done. I'm deformed already. The hair is grown, the skull misshapen, the fat woefully distributed. Short of transitioning (and even then only to a limited extent), there's no hope of reversing or hiding those changes. For better or worse, I'm stuck in this monstrosity. Second, every single genderqueer person I've ever met has been a woman who wanted to look more masculine, and everyone I've read online has fit that description. I have no earthly idea why they would want such a thing, but hey, if they want it then more power to 'em. My only problem with this is that is just reinforces my despair at the first problem. There's really no going back. That's why so few men attempt or succeed at it. Third, I very much doubt I'd receive as much acceptance as a nonconforming person whose sex is female. Men just aren't allowed to do this kind of thing and still have jobs and friends and a normal life. Fourth and finally, I think I'd feel happy in my body as it is if I knew that anyone looked at it or wanted to touch it for its own sake, if I could participate in the physical realm of sexiness the way that women are able to.”
“Most men don't seem to share my perspective on this issue, or they're bitter or even a tad misogynistic about it. Talk inevitably turns to slut shaming, rather than wanting to be the slut yourself. It's kinda heretical for men to talk about this, too. If you have body issues, people want to say you're gender dysphoric.”
“The advice male friends give in this regard, if they understand the issue at all, is complete "tough it out" pabulum. "The world's not fair. Get used to it." "It's not gonna change, so you might as well adapt." They don't seem to think it's possible to break out of the normative boxes that we find ourselves in, so even if there were secretly interested in doing so, they don't think it's possible”
When asked what he means when he says “pretty:”
“I tend to think of "prettiness" as something that exists independently of male or female, as a sort of Platonic ideal, but one which women are just by default closer to achieving than men. I hate body hair, for example. I don't mind it on women at all, because they by and large have what I'd consider an "ideal" amount, but I absolutely cannot stand it on myself. I'd get it all removed if I could afford it, painful procedures be damned. There are other attributes I envy, too: smooth skin; small, elegant faces; fat and muscle deposits that accentuate the human form rather than hide it. Hope this doesn't sound creepy or pedestalizing, but when I look at a naked man, I find him quite hideous unless he has some androgynous features. I guess another way of stating this is that there isn't really a "male prettiness" for me. Men are just further removed from achieving the ideal than women.”
Other issues talked about in person:
* Comparing self to women in terms of number of sex partners and how desirable he is because he doesn’t have as many sex partners as “so-and-so” has had- that even if he did, any woman would still be more objectively desirable than him because she can find sex at any time without trying too hard.
* People assuming he needs to make the first move.
* The feeling that society protects and idolizes femininity, and that is why men are not allowed to partake in those things (e.g. men can’t wear makeup, boys can’t play with girls’ toys).
*Reacting with anger when people tell him he needs to just accept how things are and learn to live with it.
* The idea that men are measured by their ability to have a successful and lucrative career, and if they fail, they are discarded by society (he cites most homeless people being men, and a leading killer of men being suicide, and asserts that women still have value even if they don't have a lucrative career). This bothers him particularly because he has obtained a higher education (doctorate level) which is not currently directly applied to his career. He has steady employment but constantly fears losing it.
1) Do any other men feel this way?
2) What do you do to manage or mitigate those feelings, without hiding from the world and wallowing in misery?
3) What tools can he use to cope?
I’m going to present a series of quotes from him (with his permission) that I think summarize his headspace. I find myself unable to provide impactful advice, because I don’t entirely comprehend his pain myself, and as a cis-hetero woman I feel unable to empathize entirely. He is taking medication and attending therapy, which seem to be helping him be more lucid.
“ I'm quite familiar with male sexual entitlement and how terrible and disgusting and beastly and dangerous men are. I've been beaten and sexually assaulted/harassed myself, and I've firsthand seen my father [commit extreme physical violence against] my mother. Now, obviously I haven't experienced these things as much as a lot of women have, but I'm well aware that men are dangerous, disgusting creatures, and I'm terrified that because of that the best thing for everyone is if I hide myself away alone and unhappy. That that's what the world wants. Given that, I'd be pretty daft not to be envious of the social freedom that I perceive (rightly or wrongly) women to have.”
“I really don't think I have disdain for women. I have disdain for men. I am envious of women because they are better people than men.”
“I'm not looking for men to tell me I'm right and reinforce my views… I'm looking, desperately looking, for people to convince me that my view of the world is wrong. I want to believe that I really do have an equal opportunity to participate, that women don't enjoy special privileges, that there's no reason for me to be envious of them, but for some reason whenever someone tries to do that I push back against it. Maybe I'm just an over-argumentative person. I don't know.”
“ I just have this belief that women don't really desire men the way men desire them, because men are just inherently less desirable, and that reality has implications that ripple throughout all of the issues we've talked about. Fundamentally, so my thinking goes, women have options, different choices and modes of life they can choose and still find acceptance and intimacy. Men do not. I could go on and on about this, but the only thing that's really relevant or constructive things to say about it here are that (1) this "reality" thwarts a fundamental desire of mine (to be desired) and (2) it puts me into constant panic that I need to be desperate because this is as good as it's ever gonna be. Honestly it's a huge source of anxiety for me, and a huge drag on my self esteem. Women are more complete human beings than I am, and they prefer looking at and touching women anyway (by their own admission). So what am I exactly? A drone.”
“ I don't think that women really desire men as physical beings. This has borne itself out in most of my relationships as a distinct lack of focus from my partners on well...my body. It just seems like an afterthought, something that gets in the way of or maybe augments what they feel like the real connection is. Concrete examples: By and large, there isn't a lot of touching that isn't initiated by me, and it subtly goes on in such a way that I'm convinced that what they touching or looking at isn't my body but me as a thing that is touching or looking at them. In other words, I fear that women's desire isn't really for me as a physical being, but for me to desire them as a physical being (among other things).”
“I guess, I feel like straight women don't really want to touch or look at the male body. I've certainly heard a lot of straight women in my life say things like, "Oh I much prefer looking at naked women, but I'm still attracted to men." To put it mildly, I don't think they realize how much this hurts. I mean, can you imagine how straight women would feel if significant numbers (even a majority) of straight men said the same thing? Well, that's how I feel when they say things like that. Like, I'm an ugly, deformed troll monster of a human being. No one wants to touch or look at me.”
“The usual response to my bringing up this insecurity is to point out how oppressive it is to be constantly drowning in unwanted physical attraction to your body, like a dearth of physical desire is not something I should find hurtful because I wouldn't want to live in a woman's reality anyway. I don't know why, but something about this response makes me rather angry, like I'm being lectured about how I don't have a full appreciation for women's reality when they've made no apparent attempt to understand mine. It makes me really unsympathetic and annoyed, especially because I go so far out of my way to make sure that women don't notice I'm attracted to them. Like, not only do I have to hide my desire, but I have to do so while continually (1) being made to feel guilty about having it and (2) receiving not even a little of it myself.”
On potentially being genderqueer, or fulfilling desires to appear more feminine, wear makeup, wear womens’ clothing:
“Okay, this brings me to the question of presentation. I feel pretty rigidly locked into my presentation now for a few reasons. First, testosterone is a hell of a chemical, and the damage is done. I'm deformed already. The hair is grown, the skull misshapen, the fat woefully distributed. Short of transitioning (and even then only to a limited extent), there's no hope of reversing or hiding those changes. For better or worse, I'm stuck in this monstrosity. Second, every single genderqueer person I've ever met has been a woman who wanted to look more masculine, and everyone I've read online has fit that description. I have no earthly idea why they would want such a thing, but hey, if they want it then more power to 'em. My only problem with this is that is just reinforces my despair at the first problem. There's really no going back. That's why so few men attempt or succeed at it. Third, I very much doubt I'd receive as much acceptance as a nonconforming person whose sex is female. Men just aren't allowed to do this kind of thing and still have jobs and friends and a normal life. Fourth and finally, I think I'd feel happy in my body as it is if I knew that anyone looked at it or wanted to touch it for its own sake, if I could participate in the physical realm of sexiness the way that women are able to.”
“Most men don't seem to share my perspective on this issue, or they're bitter or even a tad misogynistic about it. Talk inevitably turns to slut shaming, rather than wanting to be the slut yourself. It's kinda heretical for men to talk about this, too. If you have body issues, people want to say you're gender dysphoric.”
“The advice male friends give in this regard, if they understand the issue at all, is complete "tough it out" pabulum. "The world's not fair. Get used to it." "It's not gonna change, so you might as well adapt." They don't seem to think it's possible to break out of the normative boxes that we find ourselves in, so even if there were secretly interested in doing so, they don't think it's possible”
When asked what he means when he says “pretty:”
“I tend to think of "prettiness" as something that exists independently of male or female, as a sort of Platonic ideal, but one which women are just by default closer to achieving than men. I hate body hair, for example. I don't mind it on women at all, because they by and large have what I'd consider an "ideal" amount, but I absolutely cannot stand it on myself. I'd get it all removed if I could afford it, painful procedures be damned. There are other attributes I envy, too: smooth skin; small, elegant faces; fat and muscle deposits that accentuate the human form rather than hide it. Hope this doesn't sound creepy or pedestalizing, but when I look at a naked man, I find him quite hideous unless he has some androgynous features. I guess another way of stating this is that there isn't really a "male prettiness" for me. Men are just further removed from achieving the ideal than women.”
Other issues talked about in person:
* Comparing self to women in terms of number of sex partners and how desirable he is because he doesn’t have as many sex partners as “so-and-so” has had- that even if he did, any woman would still be more objectively desirable than him because she can find sex at any time without trying too hard.
* People assuming he needs to make the first move.
* The feeling that society protects and idolizes femininity, and that is why men are not allowed to partake in those things (e.g. men can’t wear makeup, boys can’t play with girls’ toys).
*Reacting with anger when people tell him he needs to just accept how things are and learn to live with it.
* The idea that men are measured by their ability to have a successful and lucrative career, and if they fail, they are discarded by society (he cites most homeless people being men, and a leading killer of men being suicide, and asserts that women still have value even if they don't have a lucrative career). This bothers him particularly because he has obtained a higher education (doctorate level) which is not currently directly applied to his career. He has steady employment but constantly fears losing it.
1) Do any other men feel this way?
2) What do you do to manage or mitigate those feelings, without hiding from the world and wallowing in misery?
3) What tools can he use to cope?
Best answer: Your friend sounds like he is in a lot of pain, and its great that he is getting therapy. That said, a lot of his quotes are very typical objectification of women, and demonstrate a complete inability to actually comprehend many/most women's lived experiences, and the ways in which women have historically been seen and treated.
The idea that women are "better than" men, and/or don't actually desire men (here I speak of het women, obviously) are the product of a patriarchy that objectifies women by seeing them as more-than-human, and holding them to higher or different standards than men because they are "better." This point of view also devalues their sexual needs and agency - men want/need sex more than women, and women are obligated to provide it to them in exchange for protection/money/love. The fact that women will say things devaluing the sexyness of the straight male body is also tied to this world view, and to the fact that female desire has been stigmatized for forever. The idea that men should have jobs, and this is their primary value also lies within this world view, as does the idea that women can have sex whenever they want etc. I could go on and on, but this is a prelude to answering your actual questions. As a woman, I cannot answer 1, but I have a few ideas about the other two.
(2) I think part of the solution might be to find less gender normative circles to run in. Man and boys can and do wear makeup/play with dolls, you just have to find those communities.
(3) reading all of the above, I thought to myself that your friend might really benefit from reading some feminist theory -after possibly running this idea by his therapist, and curating to focus on the historical stuff rather than the women vs men strains. Memail if you want specific recommendations, but a lot of the 2nd wave deconstructs many of these ideas.
posted by MFZ at 10:12 PM on March 2, 2017 [29 favorites]
The idea that women are "better than" men, and/or don't actually desire men (here I speak of het women, obviously) are the product of a patriarchy that objectifies women by seeing them as more-than-human, and holding them to higher or different standards than men because they are "better." This point of view also devalues their sexual needs and agency - men want/need sex more than women, and women are obligated to provide it to them in exchange for protection/money/love. The fact that women will say things devaluing the sexyness of the straight male body is also tied to this world view, and to the fact that female desire has been stigmatized for forever. The idea that men should have jobs, and this is their primary value also lies within this world view, as does the idea that women can have sex whenever they want etc. I could go on and on, but this is a prelude to answering your actual questions. As a woman, I cannot answer 1, but I have a few ideas about the other two.
(2) I think part of the solution might be to find less gender normative circles to run in. Man and boys can and do wear makeup/play with dolls, you just have to find those communities.
(3) reading all of the above, I thought to myself that your friend might really benefit from reading some feminist theory -after possibly running this idea by his therapist, and curating to focus on the historical stuff rather than the women vs men strains. Memail if you want specific recommendations, but a lot of the 2nd wave deconstructs many of these ideas.
posted by MFZ at 10:12 PM on March 2, 2017 [29 favorites]
Reading these quotes, I have to wonder about your own safety and well-being. Please don't prioritize his above yours. It sounds like he is using you as his therapist to some extent.
posted by ziggly at 11:11 PM on March 2, 2017 [23 favorites]
posted by ziggly at 11:11 PM on March 2, 2017 [23 favorites]
Agree with MFZ's last point. I want to specifically recommend "Refusing to be a man" by John Stoltenberg. it was revelatory for me.
I feel for your friend amd I have struggled with similar feelings. I believe his ememy is not women but patriarchy and that lasting peace is possible if he kicks the whole thing out of his head. which will be a lifelong struggle. I hope he can come to see that just as he is oppressed by' masculinity' ie what society wantd men to be, so too are women oppressed (brutally and violently) by feminity, and that the benefits he ascribes to women are illusory.
with that said I tjink there is some truth to his idea that men are not complete people. i tjink patriarchy robs both men and women of their pwrsonhood n different ways and it is nest not to start comparing one against the other. so witbout thinking about women, just in the xontext of men, i think men are socialized to be emotiomally stunted and cut off from their cinnection to themselves and to the world. I think it is right to be angry at this. there is a healthy righteous anger here. it could be harnessed to do some good in the world.
I have daydreamed about being a woman as a way out as well. I believe this is not because I am trans bt because I want to escape th bullshit. I am still very much in this struggle. but one thing about being male that I am coming to value is that I have the power to define what this mrans for me and to push back against pastriarchy in my world from a position of relative power. I try to do good and help others. I push back against sexisms. its a start.
oh. tell him to stop watching porn. I mean it. completely completely quit. this stuff is utter poison and I thimk watching it is a form of self-injury and its only feeding the beast.
posted by PercussivePaul at 11:26 PM on March 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
I feel for your friend amd I have struggled with similar feelings. I believe his ememy is not women but patriarchy and that lasting peace is possible if he kicks the whole thing out of his head. which will be a lifelong struggle. I hope he can come to see that just as he is oppressed by' masculinity' ie what society wantd men to be, so too are women oppressed (brutally and violently) by feminity, and that the benefits he ascribes to women are illusory.
with that said I tjink there is some truth to his idea that men are not complete people. i tjink patriarchy robs both men and women of their pwrsonhood n different ways and it is nest not to start comparing one against the other. so witbout thinking about women, just in the xontext of men, i think men are socialized to be emotiomally stunted and cut off from their cinnection to themselves and to the world. I think it is right to be angry at this. there is a healthy righteous anger here. it could be harnessed to do some good in the world.
I have daydreamed about being a woman as a way out as well. I believe this is not because I am trans bt because I want to escape th bullshit. I am still very much in this struggle. but one thing about being male that I am coming to value is that I have the power to define what this mrans for me and to push back against pastriarchy in my world from a position of relative power. I try to do good and help others. I push back against sexisms. its a start.
oh. tell him to stop watching porn. I mean it. completely completely quit. this stuff is utter poison and I thimk watching it is a form of self-injury and its only feeding the beast.
posted by PercussivePaul at 11:26 PM on March 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
I felt some of this stuff when I was younger. I don't feel any of it now. The self loathing is pretty intense there.
Whilst I feel his pain and have sympathy for him, he is expressing very narrow and incomplete gender perspectives and his knowledge/understanding of women sounds very limited and highly skewed by his own narrative. I'd agree that some sort of exposure to feminism might help him with that. Something to be aware of with this is to avoid using feminism as another way to beat himself up. It's easy to do.
In terms of moving on from this, obviously therapy is helpful here. He also just really needs to get out more - hang out with different people somehow - and try to not live in his head so much I think. How he might practically achieve this, I'm not really sure.
I would almost be suggesting he spend a year in a third world country doing something so compelling that he has no choice but to focus on something else. I find this type of approach generally helpful when dealing with negative thoughts - don't try to stop them, just fill your mind with stuff you want and leave no room for the other.
Short of that, I find perspective shifting - learning to look at existing things in a more positive fashion and counting one's blessings have also been helpful for me in dealing with negativity. They take months if not years to produce significant results though.
What probably helped me as much as anything else, especially with the assumptions about what women do and don't like, was getting to know more of them and especially women with robust sexual appetites and a great love of men. There is a great diversity out there and it's lovely getting to know people who meet the world with a light touch.
posted by mewsic at 12:03 AM on March 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Whilst I feel his pain and have sympathy for him, he is expressing very narrow and incomplete gender perspectives and his knowledge/understanding of women sounds very limited and highly skewed by his own narrative. I'd agree that some sort of exposure to feminism might help him with that. Something to be aware of with this is to avoid using feminism as another way to beat himself up. It's easy to do.
In terms of moving on from this, obviously therapy is helpful here. He also just really needs to get out more - hang out with different people somehow - and try to not live in his head so much I think. How he might practically achieve this, I'm not really sure.
I would almost be suggesting he spend a year in a third world country doing something so compelling that he has no choice but to focus on something else. I find this type of approach generally helpful when dealing with negative thoughts - don't try to stop them, just fill your mind with stuff you want and leave no room for the other.
Short of that, I find perspective shifting - learning to look at existing things in a more positive fashion and counting one's blessings have also been helpful for me in dealing with negativity. They take months if not years to produce significant results though.
What probably helped me as much as anything else, especially with the assumptions about what women do and don't like, was getting to know more of them and especially women with robust sexual appetites and a great love of men. There is a great diversity out there and it's lovely getting to know people who meet the world with a light touch.
posted by mewsic at 12:03 AM on March 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've been through this. I think anger at and terror of my father was behind much of it, along with the usual patriarchical story lines and the expectation that a normal man is the hero of these stories and that women wanted me to be that man. It didn't help that I grew up in the 50s.
What helped? Understanding how angry I was and why--that is: lots of therapy. Also, becoming close with men and women who both didn't conform to these stories and didn't want/expect me to. And the passage of time.
posted by Obscure Reference at 4:05 AM on March 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
What helped? Understanding how angry I was and why--that is: lots of therapy. Also, becoming close with men and women who both didn't conform to these stories and didn't want/expect me to. And the passage of time.
posted by Obscure Reference at 4:05 AM on March 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I definitely used to have some of these type of thoughts and feelings when I was in my early 20s although without the background of assault and abuse your friend has suffered. I don't have that view now. So in terms of your specific questions:
1 - yes
2 - I think the root cause for me was an unhelpful cycle of thoughts that I was not an attractive person, leading to not having confidence to approach women I was attracted to ask for a date, leading to a lack of close interactions with women as individuals, leading to a lot of weirdly stereotyped views about women as a group. All those patterns of thinking and behaviour were mutually reinforcing.
For me breaking out of it was mainly a case of developing a better self image that gradually let me ask people out without feeling the world was going to end if they said no. With some relationship experience came a much more realistic picture of women as people that broke down the stereotyped views over time. Of course I still have "baggage" / privilege to contend with but I'm able to accept these as parts of myself without being overwhelmed by the idea that they define me as a man.
3 - I think this comes down to his individual view of what he needs. I kind of agree with mewsic that he needs to get out of his head and interact with people in some kind of space that will help break down his monolithic views - maybe some kind of volunteering?
posted by crocomancer at 5:18 AM on March 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
1 - yes
2 - I think the root cause for me was an unhelpful cycle of thoughts that I was not an attractive person, leading to not having confidence to approach women I was attracted to ask for a date, leading to a lack of close interactions with women as individuals, leading to a lot of weirdly stereotyped views about women as a group. All those patterns of thinking and behaviour were mutually reinforcing.
For me breaking out of it was mainly a case of developing a better self image that gradually let me ask people out without feeling the world was going to end if they said no. With some relationship experience came a much more realistic picture of women as people that broke down the stereotyped views over time. Of course I still have "baggage" / privilege to contend with but I'm able to accept these as parts of myself without being overwhelmed by the idea that they define me as a man.
3 - I think this comes down to his individual view of what he needs. I kind of agree with mewsic that he needs to get out of his head and interact with people in some kind of space that will help break down his monolithic views - maybe some kind of volunteering?
posted by crocomancer at 5:18 AM on March 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Given that his pain appears to stem from having bought into a worldview that is such patent bullshit, I'm finding it a bit hard to empathize.
I would like to say, however, that this is not necessarily your burden to bear, and you don't have to do such exhausting hand-holding.
Unless this was my boyfriend, father or brother, I would very happily say, "Thank God you're not my bf/dad/bro and I don't have to deal with this". And just walk away, for my own sake.
However, if you do want to engage, and try to help him, perhaps a good approach would be to try to make him understand that the world is not a Hunger Games-esque Men vs Women arena. His premise seems to be: 'Men are awful, therefore women have it bad, yes, but since I am a man who recognizes that men are awful; I have it the worstest of all'.
More socializing might be a good idea. Anything that might help him to see men and women as individuals, with individual characteristics, really.
posted by and her eyes were wild. at 5:29 AM on March 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
I would like to say, however, that this is not necessarily your burden to bear, and you don't have to do such exhausting hand-holding.
Unless this was my boyfriend, father or brother, I would very happily say, "Thank God you're not my bf/dad/bro and I don't have to deal with this". And just walk away, for my own sake.
However, if you do want to engage, and try to help him, perhaps a good approach would be to try to make him understand that the world is not a Hunger Games-esque Men vs Women arena. His premise seems to be: 'Men are awful, therefore women have it bad, yes, but since I am a man who recognizes that men are awful; I have it the worstest of all'.
More socializing might be a good idea. Anything that might help him to see men and women as individuals, with individual characteristics, really.
posted by and her eyes were wild. at 5:29 AM on March 3, 2017 [13 favorites]
I would keep the focus on his self loathing, he needs to stop that and not by delving into some theoretical why. I would have him focus on real interactions with real people, not on "men" and "women". The question is what actions will he take to stop hating himself, not why does he hate himself.
In short, therapy.
posted by SyraCarol at 5:41 AM on March 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
In short, therapy.
posted by SyraCarol at 5:41 AM on March 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
It sounds like he's been reading a lot of stuff from misogynistic, self-pitying communities on the internet. One of the first things he should do is find some healthier reading material.
posted by colfax at 5:46 AM on March 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by colfax at 5:46 AM on March 3, 2017 [15 favorites]
Wow. Okay, there is a lot going on here, I'm going to try and break down my answer as much as possible. Basically, 3 things going on: normal and/or okay feelings, some bad/harmful feelings, and then your role in all this.
1)First off, your friend is trans. Not saying he's a trans woman, but god this is just...so in line with some trans narratives. The narrative especially fits with trans lesbians - the shame of feeling attraction, etc. I see a lot of that reflected here. And that's okay!!! Trans people are beautiful and great! Your friend wanting to be less hairy, softer face, transition? Totally cool! He can decide when, where, how he transitions. It is a completely personal decision and he doesn't have to do all or any of it. Surgery? Cool! No surgery? Cool! Hormones, no hormones? Both great! I think he really should be on hormones, his problem with the sharpness and fat distribution will get better when he is on estrogen.
"Few men attempt or succeed at it", he says. Wrong!! Hooray its wrong, though. Lot of trans women transition and "succeed", whatever that means, and then feel little to no dysphoria afterwards!
2)This is going to be hard to hear. Your friend needs therapy, and fast. There is so much violent, toxic misogyny here, it's troublesome. Putting women on a pedestal - misogynistic. Thinking women are softer/kinder/nicer/ etc - misogyny.
The dangerous parts:
-Thinking that women don't desire men, they only want to be desired
-Blaming women and others for him locking himself in his room and focusing on his own self loathing
-Feelings of anger and unsympathy when women point out to him their own lived experiences
-Having a disdain for/not wanting to be seen has having gender dysphoria, while very obviously having the textbook definition of gender dysphoria. it's internalized transphobia.
-Thinking that society protects femininity.
-Thinking that women get "societal privileges" in any way.
Good news, he wants to be convinced his worldview is wrong. He needs to spend more time in feminist spaces with GNC people, to show him that HE has the choice to fit into the box that the patriarchy has handed him. But, most importantly, queer therapist STAT! I'm not trying to play "armchair therapist", but as a young camab person who whitnessed his father commit extreme violence against his mother, and then had society force him into that label of male, it is understandable how he'd arrive in the headspace he's in.
posted by FirstMateKate at 7:42 AM on March 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
1)First off, your friend is trans. Not saying he's a trans woman, but god this is just...so in line with some trans narratives. The narrative especially fits with trans lesbians - the shame of feeling attraction, etc. I see a lot of that reflected here. And that's okay!!! Trans people are beautiful and great! Your friend wanting to be less hairy, softer face, transition? Totally cool! He can decide when, where, how he transitions. It is a completely personal decision and he doesn't have to do all or any of it. Surgery? Cool! No surgery? Cool! Hormones, no hormones? Both great! I think he really should be on hormones, his problem with the sharpness and fat distribution will get better when he is on estrogen.
"Few men attempt or succeed at it", he says. Wrong!! Hooray its wrong, though. Lot of trans women transition and "succeed", whatever that means, and then feel little to no dysphoria afterwards!
2)This is going to be hard to hear. Your friend needs therapy, and fast. There is so much violent, toxic misogyny here, it's troublesome. Putting women on a pedestal - misogynistic. Thinking women are softer/kinder/nicer/ etc - misogyny.
The dangerous parts:
-Thinking that women don't desire men, they only want to be desired
-Blaming women and others for him locking himself in his room and focusing on his own self loathing
-Feelings of anger and unsympathy when women point out to him their own lived experiences
-Having a disdain for/not wanting to be seen has having gender dysphoria, while very obviously having the textbook definition of gender dysphoria. it's internalized transphobia.
-Thinking that society protects femininity.
-Thinking that women get "societal privileges" in any way.
Good news, he wants to be convinced his worldview is wrong. He needs to spend more time in feminist spaces with GNC people, to show him that HE has the choice to fit into the box that the patriarchy has handed him. But, most importantly, queer therapist STAT! I'm not trying to play "armchair therapist", but as a young camab person who whitnessed his father commit extreme violence against his mother, and then had society force him into that label of male, it is understandable how he'd arrive in the headspace he's in.
posted by FirstMateKate at 7:42 AM on March 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
I’m going to /slightly/ deviate from FMK’s armchair analysis of transness (which is totally plausible) & say that the other possibility is that your friend has taken the mistaken idea that people agree on what makes someone sexually attractive (when in reality it’s fairly normal for heterosexual people to not find people of the same gender attractive, including themselves) and taken it in their anxiety to its inductive limit. Which is to conclude that, because they don’t find themselves attractive, no one else will either. Needless to say, this is a really toxic line of thinking that will destroy one’s self esteem in short order.
Combine that bundle of self-loathing with putting feminity on a pedestal so grand that they are incapable of seeing any virtues whatsoever in masculinity (deeply problematic in and of itself as FMK says) & the rest follows.
(Sitting in my personal armchair, if I was going to bet, I’d go with FMK’s analysis though.)
The tool to cope with all this is a lot of therapy & the willingness to unpack these frankly misogynistic attitudes to femininity & to work out the root cause of this self-loathing so that they can do something about it.
posted by pharm at 8:52 AM on March 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
Combine that bundle of self-loathing with putting feminity on a pedestal so grand that they are incapable of seeing any virtues whatsoever in masculinity (deeply problematic in and of itself as FMK says) & the rest follows.
(Sitting in my personal armchair, if I was going to bet, I’d go with FMK’s analysis though.)
The tool to cope with all this is a lot of therapy & the willingness to unpack these frankly misogynistic attitudes to femininity & to work out the root cause of this self-loathing so that they can do something about it.
posted by pharm at 8:52 AM on March 3, 2017 [4 favorites]
This is not the best link, maybe someone else knows what I'm talking about, but Patrick Stewart has been outspoken about what it was like to grow up in a family with a violent father. In one interview that I heard on the radio, he even got to the point where he had some empathy for his father, who may have had violence inculcated into him in his family of origin and during his military service.
posted by puddledork at 9:28 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by puddledork at 9:28 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
He should throw all this at Dan Savage or pay the $5 for a sockpuppet and dump it here, himself. Whatever he ends up doing, he should be the one doing it, especially the typing, god above, what is he, Milton? How did you get conscripted to transcribe his dissertation-length treatise on genderwoe? If he's so amped to change his mind, why doesn't he dip the merest toetip into the process of trying to do that? Why's he claiming to think you can do it? Of course you can't! HE's the one farted up this gigantic cloudcastle of theory about the world and the humans peopling it, so HE's the one who needs to go seek evidence that he either is or is not correct.
It's not that he's unsympathetic, he's not. He sounds like about 12 years old, whatever his chronological age, and given what happened to him, it's not hard to see how he could get where he is and then get stuck where he is. Furthermore, it is never hard to see why anyone would shirk the intimidating slog of trying to be happy and instead opt to relax and float in the swamp of despond. But look, it doesn't have to always be hard. Sometimes it's pretty simple: if your ruminations are making you unhappy, quit ruminating. Maybe it's just because I just went and saw Big Freedia last night and am happily deaf and half-asleep today as a result, but this seems like the most apropos advice possible: get out your head and come down south.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:44 AM on March 3, 2017 [12 favorites]
It's not that he's unsympathetic, he's not. He sounds like about 12 years old, whatever his chronological age, and given what happened to him, it's not hard to see how he could get where he is and then get stuck where he is. Furthermore, it is never hard to see why anyone would shirk the intimidating slog of trying to be happy and instead opt to relax and float in the swamp of despond. But look, it doesn't have to always be hard. Sometimes it's pretty simple: if your ruminations are making you unhappy, quit ruminating. Maybe it's just because I just went and saw Big Freedia last night and am happily deaf and half-asleep today as a result, but this seems like the most apropos advice possible: get out your head and come down south.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:44 AM on March 3, 2017 [12 favorites]
My first thought is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to address these problematic patterns of thinking.
As to the rest of it, the self hatred and dissatisfaction with the body reminds me of how I, as a girl and later a woman, felt after consuming mainstream media depictions of women (so much makeup, fancy hair, high heels in every situation, etc.) Lets face it--it is very costly in time and money to comply, heels are debilitating, and nobody other than the extremely genetically gifted looks like they've already been photoshopped!
Avoiding such media has been very helpful. Exercise also helped me a lot, including cardio for the antidepressant effects, and yoga to focus on breathing and to learn to stop the internal dialog. Perhaps if he is not a runner or a yogi he should do couch to 5K, try some intro packages at yoga studios until he finds the right fit, and work toward alternating days of yoga and running. (These solo activities also give him time to work on himself, perhaps using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy techniques on the long runs.)
I also had a lot of liberation after I gave myself freedom to stop trying to comply with the impossible beauty ideal --no more high heels, no professional haircuts, no makeup, stop shaving, etc. Perhaps the equivalent for your friend would be to try to try these beauty rituals, starting by say wearing heels, hair removal, doing makeup, etc. in your friend's home or at private parties, festivals, etc.
posted by PlannedSpontaneity at 10:44 AM on March 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
As to the rest of it, the self hatred and dissatisfaction with the body reminds me of how I, as a girl and later a woman, felt after consuming mainstream media depictions of women (so much makeup, fancy hair, high heels in every situation, etc.) Lets face it--it is very costly in time and money to comply, heels are debilitating, and nobody other than the extremely genetically gifted looks like they've already been photoshopped!
Avoiding such media has been very helpful. Exercise also helped me a lot, including cardio for the antidepressant effects, and yoga to focus on breathing and to learn to stop the internal dialog. Perhaps if he is not a runner or a yogi he should do couch to 5K, try some intro packages at yoga studios until he finds the right fit, and work toward alternating days of yoga and running. (These solo activities also give him time to work on himself, perhaps using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy techniques on the long runs.)
I also had a lot of liberation after I gave myself freedom to stop trying to comply with the impossible beauty ideal --no more high heels, no professional haircuts, no makeup, stop shaving, etc. Perhaps the equivalent for your friend would be to try to try these beauty rituals, starting by say wearing heels, hair removal, doing makeup, etc. in your friend's home or at private parties, festivals, etc.
posted by PlannedSpontaneity at 10:44 AM on March 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
He should throw all this at Dan Savage or pay the $5 for a sockpuppet and dump it here, himself. Whatever he ends up doing, he should be the one doing it, especially the typing, god above, what is he, Milton? How did you get conscripted to transcribe his dissertation-length treatise on genderwoe? If he's so amped to change his mind, why doesn't he dip the merest toetip into the process of trying to do that? Why's he claiming to think you can do it? Of course you can't! HE's the one farted up this gigantic cloudcastle of theory about the world and the humans peopling it, so HE's the one who needs to go seek evidence that he either is or is not correct.
I agree with this, and on top of that, I worry that OP is taking on far too much emotional labor here, not just in posting the question, but in attempting to empathize or change his mind on some of these positions, which are toxic, untrue, and sometimes flat-out mean. For example, his premise completely rejects the lived experiences and voices of actual women--he only wants to hear from men, not me (I like touching men!) and not OP, either. He discounts the pain his actual mother experienced because she's . . . pretty? Desirable? This is all really fucked up?
OP, I really think you need to stop shouldering the burden of his warped thinking. You are not qualified to help him with his gender dysphoria and misogyny, and frankly, neither are we. The sooner you can create distance for yourself here, the healthier it will be for you. He needs therapy, but you might, too. Do you often find yourself in a position of counseling friends and loved ones? I know you want to help, but it's not good for you. It will only end up poisoning you in the long run. I speak from experience.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:00 PM on March 3, 2017 [17 favorites]
I agree with this, and on top of that, I worry that OP is taking on far too much emotional labor here, not just in posting the question, but in attempting to empathize or change his mind on some of these positions, which are toxic, untrue, and sometimes flat-out mean. For example, his premise completely rejects the lived experiences and voices of actual women--he only wants to hear from men, not me (I like touching men!) and not OP, either. He discounts the pain his actual mother experienced because she's . . . pretty? Desirable? This is all really fucked up?
OP, I really think you need to stop shouldering the burden of his warped thinking. You are not qualified to help him with his gender dysphoria and misogyny, and frankly, neither are we. The sooner you can create distance for yourself here, the healthier it will be for you. He needs therapy, but you might, too. Do you often find yourself in a position of counseling friends and loved ones? I know you want to help, but it's not good for you. It will only end up poisoning you in the long run. I speak from experience.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:00 PM on March 3, 2017 [17 favorites]
I would also like to second PhoBWanKenobi’s comment & the one they quoted.
posted by pharm at 12:22 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by pharm at 12:22 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
First, art - explore the self through creativity - this includes music, painting, writing, makeup, etc. This need not be anything that other anyone else ever sees or hears; the point is to create a performance of the self (or rather many selves) for oneself. A lot of his comments are contradictory and that comes from a place of not having a good understanding of who he is and what he means to himself - if you don't have that, you can't understand yourself in relation to other people and then in relation to the wider social sphere.
Second, autobiographies and biographies - there are a lot of people in this world who had appalling childhoods and there are a lot of people who don't like themselves or aspects of themselves who have gone on to do amazing things - he needs to read (or listen if he's into audiobooks) about them, not only so that he knows he's not alone but also so that he can see that there are things he can do about it.
Three, cut off from a lot of mainstream news/content/advertising - a lot of things in this world exist to sell something - in doing that, who women are and who men are is reduced to something very superficial and competitive, where we all need to be aspiring for a particular look or conforming to a particular attitude about sex, roles, etc. He should gravitate more toward stuff that is empowering to him as a person and that fits his interests and ignore all the other crap.
Four, he needs to find his tribe - maybe he needs some new friends. Maybe he needs to spend time with less mainstream more sex-positive groups of people. Maybe he needs to deliberately seek out women who will dominate him sexually and see whether that floats his boat.
posted by heyjude at 1:01 PM on March 3, 2017
Second, autobiographies and biographies - there are a lot of people in this world who had appalling childhoods and there are a lot of people who don't like themselves or aspects of themselves who have gone on to do amazing things - he needs to read (or listen if he's into audiobooks) about them, not only so that he knows he's not alone but also so that he can see that there are things he can do about it.
Three, cut off from a lot of mainstream news/content/advertising - a lot of things in this world exist to sell something - in doing that, who women are and who men are is reduced to something very superficial and competitive, where we all need to be aspiring for a particular look or conforming to a particular attitude about sex, roles, etc. He should gravitate more toward stuff that is empowering to him as a person and that fits his interests and ignore all the other crap.
Four, he needs to find his tribe - maybe he needs some new friends. Maybe he needs to spend time with less mainstream more sex-positive groups of people. Maybe he needs to deliberately seek out women who will dominate him sexually and see whether that floats his boat.
posted by heyjude at 1:01 PM on March 3, 2017
Response by poster: Thanks to those who responded concerned about my wellbeing- I want to clarify a few things.
1) I am in therapy, and agree it's paramount. My tendency to agonize on behalf of others is one of the topics my therapist and I cover. My posting this is not just for the fellow, but for my own self care as a sort of unburdening- I've linked him to this page.
2) Issues of gender and feminism are also interesting to me, and I'm treating this as a learning experience (thank you to those who suggested books to read).
3) He's a loved one, so it will take much greater strain than this for me to sever ties. But I will if my wellbeing is compromised (and I've done it in the past, with even closer loved ones).
4) I concede that perhaps he should write his own MeFi question and didn't think of it until after y'all suggested it to me... D'oh.
I only lurked without posting for the past 2 years because I always find my questions answered, but this was a topic I haven't seen touched in quite this way yet. If there's another thread that addresses these same things, please do link to it.
posted by Dendrites at 1:01 PM on March 3, 2017
1) I am in therapy, and agree it's paramount. My tendency to agonize on behalf of others is one of the topics my therapist and I cover. My posting this is not just for the fellow, but for my own self care as a sort of unburdening- I've linked him to this page.
2) Issues of gender and feminism are also interesting to me, and I'm treating this as a learning experience (thank you to those who suggested books to read).
3) He's a loved one, so it will take much greater strain than this for me to sever ties. But I will if my wellbeing is compromised (and I've done it in the past, with even closer loved ones).
4) I concede that perhaps he should write his own MeFi question and didn't think of it until after y'all suggested it to me... D'oh.
I only lurked without posting for the past 2 years because I always find my questions answered, but this was a topic I haven't seen touched in quite this way yet. If there's another thread that addresses these same things, please do link to it.
posted by Dendrites at 1:01 PM on March 3, 2017
Best answer: I may come back with more fleshed out thoughts. For now, two things (mostly recapping others' thoughts):
1) Agreeing with Percussive Paul that your friend is looking at this as a kind of zero sum game. It's not that women (or men) are "winning" under patriarchy. No one is. There are different kinds of constraints and different experiences. Your friend is focusing on women as a kind of competitor class, when it's not about that - a systemic perspective is what's called for, I'm with others on that.
2) Agreeing that it sounds like what is probably energizing this self-hate, and this perspective, probably goes back to the early abuse your friend witnessed and maybe experienced. The view from my armchair (also) is that he hates whatever of his father he can see in himself and other men, and idealizing (and also resenting) his mother, and whatever he can see of her in women (plus, whatever other experiences he's had with women). In that family, sounds like, there was no space given to him to become himself. Beyond gender, I mean fundamentally. (That sounds horribly Freudian and trite, and for that I apologize, but... it sounds like that's sort of what's going on more proximally, and it seems he's woven this larger narrative around it.) Sounds, also, as though trauma might inform his view of his own body to some important degree...
He wants to be desired, the way men desire women... he is really not seeing how complex and burdensome that is from the other side. (To the degree women, generally, might not see men the way men see women, it's largely because men haven't been reduced absolutely to their visual presentation, forever. While women have [generally] been punished for taking on the more active role. And of course there are other factors that play into that, but it's untrue that [straight] women don't desire men physically. They are just usually not allowed to act on it without paying some kind of social cost. Or, that desire might be tempered by all kinds of frustration and resentment.)
But also, I can see why he's angered by that idea. I don't know that there are many spaces for men to voice their dissatisfaction with cultural masculinity. I don't know that it's easy for men to address themselves as victims of abuse (whether vicarious or directly experienced). 2nd Percussive Paul on not weighing that against what women experience, but looking at it on its own terms. (But again - it's not that the fact that men have social privilege means all men have it easy, not at all... it just means that on this axis of gender, men have certain benefits that women don't. This doesn't mean men don't experience pain of their own.)
Nth that it would probably be fruitful for him to work through the trauma he witnessed (and/or experienced). And to try to contextualize and humanize his father (and mother). And it might help to treat his body with more forgiveness and gentleness. (In general, I think women who feel constrained by objectification benefit from doing more, physically, taking themselves out of the perspective of being observed, and into action. Grounding themselves, physically. I would guess that this sort of activity might help your friend, also, if he's spending a lot of time observing himself as an object, so that he spends less time looking at himself from the outside, and more time rooting himself, in his own activity and perspective.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:40 PM on March 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
1) Agreeing with Percussive Paul that your friend is looking at this as a kind of zero sum game. It's not that women (or men) are "winning" under patriarchy. No one is. There are different kinds of constraints and different experiences. Your friend is focusing on women as a kind of competitor class, when it's not about that - a systemic perspective is what's called for, I'm with others on that.
2) Agreeing that it sounds like what is probably energizing this self-hate, and this perspective, probably goes back to the early abuse your friend witnessed and maybe experienced. The view from my armchair (also) is that he hates whatever of his father he can see in himself and other men, and idealizing (and also resenting) his mother, and whatever he can see of her in women (plus, whatever other experiences he's had with women). In that family, sounds like, there was no space given to him to become himself. Beyond gender, I mean fundamentally. (That sounds horribly Freudian and trite, and for that I apologize, but... it sounds like that's sort of what's going on more proximally, and it seems he's woven this larger narrative around it.) Sounds, also, as though trauma might inform his view of his own body to some important degree...
He wants to be desired, the way men desire women... he is really not seeing how complex and burdensome that is from the other side. (To the degree women, generally, might not see men the way men see women, it's largely because men haven't been reduced absolutely to their visual presentation, forever. While women have [generally] been punished for taking on the more active role. And of course there are other factors that play into that, but it's untrue that [straight] women don't desire men physically. They are just usually not allowed to act on it without paying some kind of social cost. Or, that desire might be tempered by all kinds of frustration and resentment.)
But also, I can see why he's angered by that idea. I don't know that there are many spaces for men to voice their dissatisfaction with cultural masculinity. I don't know that it's easy for men to address themselves as victims of abuse (whether vicarious or directly experienced). 2nd Percussive Paul on not weighing that against what women experience, but looking at it on its own terms. (But again - it's not that the fact that men have social privilege means all men have it easy, not at all... it just means that on this axis of gender, men have certain benefits that women don't. This doesn't mean men don't experience pain of their own.)
Nth that it would probably be fruitful for him to work through the trauma he witnessed (and/or experienced). And to try to contextualize and humanize his father (and mother). And it might help to treat his body with more forgiveness and gentleness. (In general, I think women who feel constrained by objectification benefit from doing more, physically, taking themselves out of the perspective of being observed, and into action. Grounding themselves, physically. I would guess that this sort of activity might help your friend, also, if he's spending a lot of time observing himself as an object, so that he spends less time looking at himself from the outside, and more time rooting himself, in his own activity and perspective.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:40 PM on March 3, 2017 [3 favorites]
On potentially being genderqueer, or fulfilling desires to appear more feminine, wear makeup, wear womens’ clothing:
Your friend needs a therapist who works with transgender people. This is going to eat away at your friend. I don't want to scare you, but the paragraphs that follow this quote is the kind of stuff that leads trans people to kill themselves. This is probably eating away at him even more than he's expressing to you.
Please do not let your friend just go to any old therapist because 90% of them will not be able to deal with this. If you're in a big city, call your LGBT center and ask specifically for a recommendation for a gender therapist. They might have a list on their website.
This is serious shit.
posted by AFABulous at 4:56 PM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Your friend needs a therapist who works with transgender people. This is going to eat away at your friend. I don't want to scare you, but the paragraphs that follow this quote is the kind of stuff that leads trans people to kill themselves. This is probably eating away at him even more than he's expressing to you.
Please do not let your friend just go to any old therapist because 90% of them will not be able to deal with this. If you're in a big city, call your LGBT center and ask specifically for a recommendation for a gender therapist. They might have a list on their website.
This is serious shit.
posted by AFABulous at 4:56 PM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think these sorts of feelings are very common to various degrees, although when they are this deep and damaging I think we may be talking about a frustrated trans person who is stuck in a bad loop, thinking he can never be some perfect fantasy woman so there's no point trying to be feminine at all.
Therapy is a very good start. Next I think your friend needs to try to become somebody he would find attractive. Now, he probably hits a wall right there because he's thinking an "attractive woman" is a woman who is universally considered gorgeous, like a super model. That is a deadly trap to fall into! The trick to getting out is for him to really take a look at what HE thinks is attractive, in real life. Physically, I bet he is not only attracted to women who look like the cover of Vogue. (If so, that's it's own problem.) He is probably drawn to some older women, some heavier women, some women with slightly funky teeth or big noses or whatever, "flaws" that aren't really flaws at all. And attraction obviously isn't just about looks! Whatever it is that makes him adore a woman, he needs to try to cultivate that in himself. He needs to figure out what he has to do to become somebody he would consider sexy, and go all in.
I'm not saying he needs to fully transition, that's his choice. But he needs to do whatever it takes to become a person he can find desirable. Becoming your own fantasy babe is so, SO much better than just hoping women will treat you like a fantasy babe. And if he can reach a point where he's like, "Damn, I am pretty hot," I can almost guarantee some other people will think he is too, and they'll let him know! If he wants people to woo him and coo over him and treat him like a pretty princess, he needs to embrace the feminine. If he is living as a hairy cisgender male, nobody even knows he wants to be treated like a pretty girl... so why would they do it?
He needs to forget all the shit about body hair and fat distribution and all that, and get SERIOUS about exploring drag. Shaving, corsets and eyeliner can change everything. Even if he can't be a woman who will easily "pass" (I can't be arsed to look up this week's p.c. term for it; it's been a shitty week and I'm tired) he can probably look much, much more lovely than he thinks and he won't know until he tries. Even a big hairy bear of a man can become a glorious drag queen. The day he looks in the mirror and feels pretty will be huge, and in the process of getting there he will hopefully learn a lot about women and men. I know I did.
I sometimes think that every man should spend a year as a sexy woman and every woman should spend a year as a desperately horny, ugly man. Then the world might make a lot more sense to everybody. Your friend is oppressed by this idea that men are monsters so he is a monster, and as a monster he can never be beautiful. He needs to break that cycle, and become beautiful to himself.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:24 AM on March 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Therapy is a very good start. Next I think your friend needs to try to become somebody he would find attractive. Now, he probably hits a wall right there because he's thinking an "attractive woman" is a woman who is universally considered gorgeous, like a super model. That is a deadly trap to fall into! The trick to getting out is for him to really take a look at what HE thinks is attractive, in real life. Physically, I bet he is not only attracted to women who look like the cover of Vogue. (If so, that's it's own problem.) He is probably drawn to some older women, some heavier women, some women with slightly funky teeth or big noses or whatever, "flaws" that aren't really flaws at all. And attraction obviously isn't just about looks! Whatever it is that makes him adore a woman, he needs to try to cultivate that in himself. He needs to figure out what he has to do to become somebody he would consider sexy, and go all in.
I'm not saying he needs to fully transition, that's his choice. But he needs to do whatever it takes to become a person he can find desirable. Becoming your own fantasy babe is so, SO much better than just hoping women will treat you like a fantasy babe. And if he can reach a point where he's like, "Damn, I am pretty hot," I can almost guarantee some other people will think he is too, and they'll let him know! If he wants people to woo him and coo over him and treat him like a pretty princess, he needs to embrace the feminine. If he is living as a hairy cisgender male, nobody even knows he wants to be treated like a pretty girl... so why would they do it?
He needs to forget all the shit about body hair and fat distribution and all that, and get SERIOUS about exploring drag. Shaving, corsets and eyeliner can change everything. Even if he can't be a woman who will easily "pass" (I can't be arsed to look up this week's p.c. term for it; it's been a shitty week and I'm tired) he can probably look much, much more lovely than he thinks and he won't know until he tries. Even a big hairy bear of a man can become a glorious drag queen. The day he looks in the mirror and feels pretty will be huge, and in the process of getting there he will hopefully learn a lot about women and men. I know I did.
I sometimes think that every man should spend a year as a sexy woman and every woman should spend a year as a desperately horny, ugly man. Then the world might make a lot more sense to everybody. Your friend is oppressed by this idea that men are monsters so he is a monster, and as a monster he can never be beautiful. He needs to break that cycle, and become beautiful to himself.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:24 AM on March 5, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yes, what Ursula Hitler said about exploring and expanding "pretty."
Also, what the hell is he looking at? He's not looking at the men I'm looking at, and he's definitely not looking at the trans women I'm looking at.
He must be seeing through some kind of horribly befouled filter. Maybe he should go see Split. Split is yet another idiotic movie trading on a heavily fictionalized personality disorder that is mean, dishonest, and dumb in probably eight different ways plus has a risibly dopey ending but that is saved and made glorious despite it all entirely because of James McAvoy. He should go see it and then ask himself, "How do I share a world with James McAvoy and still think men are ugly is a statement I can make? Why have I escaped bursting into flame? Thank God I saw this dumb movie: now I'm saved from incineration."
I mean, just look at some gorgeous men, is what I am saying. Also look at some ethereally lovely trans women, and stop saying this terrible and false thing. If you want to feel bad, then feel bad not about yourself but about saying and believing the false thing, because you're not just saying and thinking it about yourself. The general belief of this lie harms a lot of people.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:32 AM on March 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also, what the hell is he looking at? He's not looking at the men I'm looking at, and he's definitely not looking at the trans women I'm looking at.
He must be seeing through some kind of horribly befouled filter. Maybe he should go see Split. Split is yet another idiotic movie trading on a heavily fictionalized personality disorder that is mean, dishonest, and dumb in probably eight different ways plus has a risibly dopey ending but that is saved and made glorious despite it all entirely because of James McAvoy. He should go see it and then ask himself, "How do I share a world with James McAvoy and still think men are ugly is a statement I can make? Why have I escaped bursting into flame? Thank God I saw this dumb movie: now I'm saved from incineration."
I mean, just look at some gorgeous men, is what I am saying. Also look at some ethereally lovely trans women, and stop saying this terrible and false thing. If you want to feel bad, then feel bad not about yourself but about saying and believing the false thing, because you're not just saying and thinking it about yourself. The general belief of this lie harms a lot of people.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:32 AM on March 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
For anyone still following this, I'm OP's friend, the source of the disturbing quotes. They're from emails that we've exchanged over the past year. For anyone who would like to talk to me about this, feel free to send me a PM. I'm happy that I'm trying to start to come to terms with this, and OP has been the only one to know about this side of me for far too long. It's not fair to continue burdening her, and I'm eager to hear other people's perspectives. Seems like that might be a tiny step in the right direction.
posted by VirginMeowy at 5:00 PM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by VirginMeowy at 5:00 PM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Quick note: If anyone would like to discuss with VirginMeowy via Mefi Mail, that's fine, and also fine for them to post further questions to Ask Metafilter when they are able (waiting period for new members), but going forward here, this needs to remain a normal thread and not a discussion, interview, Q&A, or inquisition of VirginMeowy. Thank you. (Also, welcome, VirginMeowy!)
posted by taz (staff) at 12:35 AM on April 2, 2017
posted by taz (staff) at 12:35 AM on April 2, 2017
Oh sorry. Was my post breaching etiquette? I just wanted to invite private messages, if anyone is so inclined. I'm new here, as you noted. Thanks for the welcome.
posted by VirginMeowy at 11:02 PM on April 4, 2017
posted by VirginMeowy at 11:02 PM on April 4, 2017
This thread is closed to new comments.
Honestly he needs therapy. He needs to deeply understand that not all men (including himself) are his father. The world is not so black and white. From this he will gain new perspective on the secondary issues.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:04 PM on March 2, 2017 [26 favorites]