I was a very near bystander for a violent fight on the subway.
January 26, 2016 8:31 PM Subscribe
I was a very near bystander to a fistfight on the subway today, and this is the second time I had to dodge something similar in the past year and a half.
I live in NYC and take a crowded subway line every day. In the past 18 months or so (since I moved here), I have encountered several vocal fights on the subway, but only a few physical ones. Today I ended up with 2 grown men fist fighting basically on my lap until I could get out of the way.
The fight continued between stops (about 5 minutes) and everyone just moved as far away as possible and let things play out, which included the bigger guy kicking the little guy in the face repeatedly).
Luckily there was no blood. A gatorade got spilled on me, but I was not physically harmed. I think the right thing to do in this situation is to get away and not look, because that's what everyone else on the train did, but is there anything else I can do to either protect myself or avoid this going forward?
I am a 5'2" woman with zero physical strength, so I don't think the answer is to hold anyone back.
I live in NYC and take a crowded subway line every day. In the past 18 months or so (since I moved here), I have encountered several vocal fights on the subway, but only a few physical ones. Today I ended up with 2 grown men fist fighting basically on my lap until I could get out of the way.
The fight continued between stops (about 5 minutes) and everyone just moved as far away as possible and let things play out, which included the bigger guy kicking the little guy in the face repeatedly).
Luckily there was no blood. A gatorade got spilled on me, but I was not physically harmed. I think the right thing to do in this situation is to get away and not look, because that's what everyone else on the train did, but is there anything else I can do to either protect myself or avoid this going forward?
I am a 5'2" woman with zero physical strength, so I don't think the answer is to hold anyone back.
Seeing violence up close can be very frightening, even if you're not involved. It sounds like it's shaken you up, and it's hardly strange you'd feel that way. Witnessing two subway fights in a year and a half is a lot of fights!
Right now I think you should focus on things that will help you feel safer. Maybe avoid the subway for a while if you can. Try carpooling with people you trust, Uber or taxis. Is subway-pooling a thing, where you and a co-worker ride the subway together? (I'm an LA native, I don't know these things.) Maybe you could say, "I keep having these damn fights break out around me on the subway, and it's starting to freak me out. We live in the same neighborhood, so I was wondering if we could meet up to take the subway to and from work."
I'd also suggest studying basic self-defense and maybe getting some pepper spray. You can't control what other people do, but you can try to prepare yourself so you'll have options if bad stuff happens.
Most people probably never see a fight after they leave elementary school, so hopefully you've seen all the nights you're gonna see!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:04 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Right now I think you should focus on things that will help you feel safer. Maybe avoid the subway for a while if you can. Try carpooling with people you trust, Uber or taxis. Is subway-pooling a thing, where you and a co-worker ride the subway together? (I'm an LA native, I don't know these things.) Maybe you could say, "I keep having these damn fights break out around me on the subway, and it's starting to freak me out. We live in the same neighborhood, so I was wondering if we could meet up to take the subway to and from work."
I'd also suggest studying basic self-defense and maybe getting some pepper spray. You can't control what other people do, but you can try to prepare yourself so you'll have options if bad stuff happens.
Most people probably never see a fight after they leave elementary school, so hopefully you've seen all the nights you're gonna see!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:04 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Try carpooling with people you trust, Uber or taxis.
Just fyi, for the average NYC dweller this would run about $70 a day if you used it to get to and from work. It's not really a realistic suggestion.
Honestly? It's a very crowded city and part of living here is creating a bubble around yourself and not letting everything in. You'd go insane if you didn't.
One thing you could do, though: go find the conductor and tell them. You might have to walk through a few cars, or you could wait until the train stopped and walk along the platform until you find their window. I don't know if there's a protocol for this, but they might be able to do something.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:19 PM on January 26, 2016 [11 favorites]
Just fyi, for the average NYC dweller this would run about $70 a day if you used it to get to and from work. It's not really a realistic suggestion.
Honestly? It's a very crowded city and part of living here is creating a bubble around yourself and not letting everything in. You'd go insane if you didn't.
One thing you could do, though: go find the conductor and tell them. You might have to walk through a few cars, or you could wait until the train stopped and walk along the platform until you find their window. I don't know if there's a protocol for this, but they might be able to do something.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:19 PM on January 26, 2016 [11 favorites]
so hopefully you've seen all the nights you're gonna see!
Damn it. I meant hopefully you've seen all the fights you're gonna see! The other way kind of makes it sound like I'm wishing you a speedy death.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:20 PM on January 26, 2016 [11 favorites]
Damn it. I meant hopefully you've seen all the fights you're gonna see! The other way kind of makes it sound like I'm wishing you a speedy death.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:20 PM on January 26, 2016 [11 favorites]
Carry pepper spray?
posted by cakebatter at 9:20 PM on January 26, 2016
posted by cakebatter at 9:20 PM on January 26, 2016
Please think twice before using an airborne chemical weapon in a crowded train car. I'm not saying there's no situation in which it would be justified, but you'd effectively be pepper spraying a dozen people if you did this during rush hour.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:23 PM on January 26, 2016 [54 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:23 PM on January 26, 2016 [54 favorites]
What Brockles said. Be more aware, move away when other people move away. There's no way to avoid it and you just have to ride it out--they aren't there to attack you, they are attacking each other. Maybe put yourself behind someone bigger than you to 'block' any possible contact if things get out of hand. Get off at the next stop and switch cars or wait for the next train.
posted by greta simone at 9:32 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by greta simone at 9:32 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
You did about all you can do. I'm a tall guy and I don't think I would have done anything any differently. Breaking up strangers fighting is not your business, if only because you might get hurt. For all you know one of them was high or something and you don't need any of that.
In terms of avoiding it, I don't know where in town you're riding but do what you can to stay in trains that have people in them but aren't too crowded. I realize that in Manhattan rush hour a "not too crowded" train is not very realistic. But just walk away. 18 months in is about where the post-move honeymoon period wears off so yeah, welcome to life in the big city. I count myself lucky that in a decade of transit commuting in the much less exciting Toronto the worse thing I ever saw was a guy huff a can of toluene right in front of me in a subway car. I hear New York is much more interesting.
posted by GuyZero at 9:35 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
In terms of avoiding it, I don't know where in town you're riding but do what you can to stay in trains that have people in them but aren't too crowded. I realize that in Manhattan rush hour a "not too crowded" train is not very realistic. But just walk away. 18 months in is about where the post-move honeymoon period wears off so yeah, welcome to life in the big city. I count myself lucky that in a decade of transit commuting in the much less exciting Toronto the worse thing I ever saw was a guy huff a can of toluene right in front of me in a subway car. I hear New York is much more interesting.
posted by GuyZero at 9:35 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: In this scenario your goal is to move away from any danger as fast as possible. Do this by positioning yourself in a way that maximizes your avenues of escape.
Specifically, stand in the middle of the car, near the doors. From the middle, you can move in either direction up or down the car, or exit through the doors. With 3 "outs" you'll be much safer
posted by BadgerDoctor at 9:38 PM on January 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
Specifically, stand in the middle of the car, near the doors. From the middle, you can move in either direction up or down the car, or exit through the doors. With 3 "outs" you'll be much safer
posted by BadgerDoctor at 9:38 PM on January 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
This sucks that this happened to you. It sounds scary. Give yourself a break for awhile.
One thing I struggle with is listening to my own intuition about a situation being creepy or bad versus me telling myself "self, you are allowing stereotypes to take over your brain. Just becuase this person is a man/behaving in a way that is consistent with mental illness/a person of color/intoxicated/whatever thing that you've picked out of thin air doesn't mean that you need to move away. A GOOD person would stay in this public transit seat and defeat her assumptions."
But the fact is, if you have a bad feeling about someone or something, just move and don't worry about feeling bad about it especially if it is late, you're alone, etc.
posted by k8t at 9:40 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
One thing I struggle with is listening to my own intuition about a situation being creepy or bad versus me telling myself "self, you are allowing stereotypes to take over your brain. Just becuase this person is a man/behaving in a way that is consistent with mental illness/a person of color/intoxicated/whatever thing that you've picked out of thin air doesn't mean that you need to move away. A GOOD person would stay in this public transit seat and defeat her assumptions."
But the fact is, if you have a bad feeling about someone or something, just move and don't worry about feeling bad about it especially if it is late, you're alone, etc.
posted by k8t at 9:40 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
The newer blue seat cars have intercoms at each end for alerting the conductor.
posted by brujita at 9:54 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by brujita at 9:54 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
For some reason (getting older, I presume) I've been a lot more aware of violence and aggression around me in the city lately. It's very exhausting. The advice to be aware is always good advice, but my quality of life has also gone up about 500% since I stopped being hypervigilant on every commute and just let myself listen to the damn podcast.
I think you did pretty much what you could, which is not much in a crowded train car, and in the future just scramble away as soon as you see the shittiness approaching you. Get off the train and get back on the next one (or move down a car) if someone is behaving erratically or aggressively (by NYC standards of "erratically," which are high). Otherwise, I think you just got unlucky to have it in your face twice in a row.
posted by easter queen at 9:56 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think you did pretty much what you could, which is not much in a crowded train car, and in the future just scramble away as soon as you see the shittiness approaching you. Get off the train and get back on the next one (or move down a car) if someone is behaving erratically or aggressively (by NYC standards of "erratically," which are high). Otherwise, I think you just got unlucky to have it in your face twice in a row.
posted by easter queen at 9:56 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've gotten much more willing to call the police lately. I grew up in rural America and kids or even adults yelling or even coming to blows was one thing there. It's just too darn crowded for that here in NYC. I'll call 911 earlier and more often than I used to. I've called or flagged down the police twice in the past month about fights.
posted by Jahaza at 10:04 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Jahaza at 10:04 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
For the love of all that is holy, no pepper spray. You seriously will only nuke yourself, your fellow passengers, possibly kids and/or babies. Then you will have 50 people lining up to have some very pointed words with you. (And it really doesn't stop people. It's really only used to distract them long enough for you to take other measures to deal with the problem.)
Really, your best bet is being aware of your surroundings. My work involves dealing with people who nut up on a semi-regular basis. Just by paying attention to body language and tone of voice (even if can't hear the actual words), we can predict 90% of the problems.
Sit down and see if you can recall what the combatants were doing just prior to the fights. Were they with their buddies? Some dudes act more foolish if they are in front of friends. How were they standing? Tall? Tense? Suddenly taking up more physical space? Elbows out? One of the instant tell-tale signs is clenched fists. Watch people's hands. If you can see faces, looked for clenched jaws. Did someone get to close to someone else? Or someone's girlfriend? Were their voices suddenly raised? Did they speak in a more clipped tone? Listen for the conversation to go from more or less friendly ribbing to "what the fuck did you just say about my sister you asshole?!" People almost always telegraph their actions.
The good news is that it sounds like these fights were between the two people. They didn't really have any interest in you (other than an object in their path) so you were actually are in a decent position to stay safe. Just pay attention to the very fluid situation that is a NYC subway ride and get the hell out of the way. Don't second guess your intuition. It's a built-in alarm system honed by thousands of years of people who had a strong sense of self-preservation. They very kindly passed it on to you. Use it. If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. Now isn't the time to worry about alleged prejudices. Now is the time to keep yourself safe.
Good luck!
posted by Beti at 11:06 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
Really, your best bet is being aware of your surroundings. My work involves dealing with people who nut up on a semi-regular basis. Just by paying attention to body language and tone of voice (even if can't hear the actual words), we can predict 90% of the problems.
Sit down and see if you can recall what the combatants were doing just prior to the fights. Were they with their buddies? Some dudes act more foolish if they are in front of friends. How were they standing? Tall? Tense? Suddenly taking up more physical space? Elbows out? One of the instant tell-tale signs is clenched fists. Watch people's hands. If you can see faces, looked for clenched jaws. Did someone get to close to someone else? Or someone's girlfriend? Were their voices suddenly raised? Did they speak in a more clipped tone? Listen for the conversation to go from more or less friendly ribbing to "what the fuck did you just say about my sister you asshole?!" People almost always telegraph their actions.
The good news is that it sounds like these fights were between the two people. They didn't really have any interest in you (other than an object in their path) so you were actually are in a decent position to stay safe. Just pay attention to the very fluid situation that is a NYC subway ride and get the hell out of the way. Don't second guess your intuition. It's a built-in alarm system honed by thousands of years of people who had a strong sense of self-preservation. They very kindly passed it on to you. Use it. If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. Now isn't the time to worry about alleged prejudices. Now is the time to keep yourself safe.
Good luck!
posted by Beti at 11:06 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
I realize it's been said already, but using pepper spray on a bus or subway car is a very easy way to become part of the fight. And very possibly even with someone who wasn't involved in the fight in the first place, but now wants to kick your ass.
I've actually been assaulted being the silent bystander of a bus fight. I've witnessed more than i can count. Brockles first comment is on point. You need to pay more attention to what's going on around you, and not be afraid to move far back/switch cars or just get off and wait for the next train when the wind starts blowing the wrong direction. Since high school(when i got punched in the throat badly) i've gotten a lot better at not only paying attention to this stuff, but just saying fuck this and getting off ASAP if i can't move all that far away.
Basically, as soon as people start yelling or shoving or getting aggressive i'm either getting up, or getting ready to get up and move immediately. If you watch the crowd, you'll notice other people doing it too.
posted by emptythought at 11:56 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've actually been assaulted being the silent bystander of a bus fight. I've witnessed more than i can count. Brockles first comment is on point. You need to pay more attention to what's going on around you, and not be afraid to move far back/switch cars or just get off and wait for the next train when the wind starts blowing the wrong direction. Since high school(when i got punched in the throat badly) i've gotten a lot better at not only paying attention to this stuff, but just saying fuck this and getting off ASAP if i can't move all that far away.
Basically, as soon as people start yelling or shoving or getting aggressive i'm either getting up, or getting ready to get up and move immediately. If you watch the crowd, you'll notice other people doing it too.
posted by emptythought at 11:56 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
I didn't actually mean to suggest she should be spraying people on the subway, so I hope folks will stop going back to say what a bad idea that would be. I meant that carrying pepper spray (in addition to studying some basic self-defense) may help her feel less vulnerable in general.
Never been to NY and I don't (and didn't) pretend to know anything about the subway.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:52 AM on January 27, 2016
Never been to NY and I don't (and didn't) pretend to know anything about the subway.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:52 AM on January 27, 2016
I know I am in a minority here, but as a smallish lady, I will ask for people's help in intervening in something like this and have done so before, with varying success. I have broken up fights, but I have also had people refuse to help me when I was scared to do it alone and not tried alone because it wasn't safe, but I'm glad I tried to get help. I can't bear violence and do feel it's my duty to try and stop it if I can. I find the culture of "stand by and let it happen" very depressing.
It is always your call, but in your situation, I would have said to the other passengers "this is awful, will you help me try to calm things down? I do not feel safe doing it alone".
This is something to do at your discretion, and never at the cost of your own safety.
posted by greenish at 4:06 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
It is always your call, but in your situation, I would have said to the other passengers "this is awful, will you help me try to calm things down? I do not feel safe doing it alone".
This is something to do at your discretion, and never at the cost of your own safety.
posted by greenish at 4:06 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Nthing move as far away from the situation as possible, and stand by a middle door if you can. There's nothing scarier than being in one of those really crowded cars, nowhere near a door, when something gets tense or violent.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:23 AM on January 27, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:23 AM on January 27, 2016
Best answer: I am a 5'2" woman with zero physical strength
It sounds like these experiences have been unsettling to you. I'm sorry! They sound scary! I'm about two inches shorter than you and I work as a firefighter. I wanted to encourage you to consider what you might want to do to feel more comfortable physically being able to quickly get out of the way, respond proportionately to various situations, and protect yourself using your brain, 5'2" body and your physical strength.
If you're not already working out, how about starting working out? Self-defense courses can be very short and could be useful in raising your awareness of your surroundings and helping you to practice what your mental and physical responses to various situations may be. Martial arts are great as well - and there are several that are more suited to petite women. Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is a good option, and heavily self-defense focused. I've heard good things about Aikido as well.
Please note - I'm not suggesting any of this in order for you to physically intervene in a fight. Rather, the most important part of any of these courses is learning how to mentally prepare yourself to quickly respond to keep yourself safe. Physical response is only secondary.
Best wishes!
posted by arnicae at 5:13 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
It sounds like these experiences have been unsettling to you. I'm sorry! They sound scary! I'm about two inches shorter than you and I work as a firefighter. I wanted to encourage you to consider what you might want to do to feel more comfortable physically being able to quickly get out of the way, respond proportionately to various situations, and protect yourself using your brain, 5'2" body and your physical strength.
If you're not already working out, how about starting working out? Self-defense courses can be very short and could be useful in raising your awareness of your surroundings and helping you to practice what your mental and physical responses to various situations may be. Martial arts are great as well - and there are several that are more suited to petite women. Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is a good option, and heavily self-defense focused. I've heard good things about Aikido as well.
Please note - I'm not suggesting any of this in order for you to physically intervene in a fight. Rather, the most important part of any of these courses is learning how to mentally prepare yourself to quickly respond to keep yourself safe. Physical response is only secondary.
Best wishes!
posted by arnicae at 5:13 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
In the same vein as self-defense courses, you could attempt to carry yourself as if you're Imperator Furiosa. Wear some big boots that you can still run in, something utilitarian for clothes. Feel like a badass. This won't stop any fights, but you may find yourself hyper-aware of your surroundings and ready to dodge unseemly situations as a result. It's all about confidence and situational awareness.
posted by theraflu at 6:45 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by theraflu at 6:45 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Do they have button intercoms on New York subway trains where you can let the driver know what's going on?
posted by Jess the Mess at 11:42 AM on January 27, 2016
posted by Jess the Mess at 11:42 AM on January 27, 2016
During the 5-6 years I took the bus everywhere I intervened in a number of conflicts, even initiated a few when I thought another passenger was doing something particularly egregious, both with decidedly mixed results; and one situation in which I didn't intervene hard enough when I thought something especially awful was likely to happen after I got off the bus will haunt me the rest of my days.
But an intensifying sense of having unwanted and thankless responsibility constantly thrust upon me as I stepped on the bus was a big part of why I started riding my bike when I could and driving when I couldn't.
posted by jamjam at 12:04 PM on January 27, 2016
But an intensifying sense of having unwanted and thankless responsibility constantly thrust upon me as I stepped on the bus was a big part of why I started riding my bike when I could and driving when I couldn't.
posted by jamjam at 12:04 PM on January 27, 2016
Best answer: I was on this subway car last night. (The 4/5 train heading North from Union Square to Grand Central Station at ~6:30pm ET.) It was terrifying because the train was moving very slowly, was very quiet, and quite crowded. I was in the middle of the car, and could only hear the fight and some small attempts to stop it. I walked towards the other end of the car... It was an awful experience.
posted by eliotpierce at 1:39 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by eliotpierce at 1:39 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: OMG eliotpierce! It was so crazy and I can't believe someone else here experienced it! The smaller man in the fight was sitting next to me up until Union Square where he gave up his seat for an older woman right before the argument started.
Thanks everyone for your advice. I already put some of it into practice today - getting on the middle of the car is such good advice and I can't believe I never thought of it. I am also going to add some weight training to my workout routine, not so I can get into fights, but more so I feel a little less weak and powerless.
I felt a little crazy for how badly I was shaken up by the whole experience and I am happy to have a little plan going forward.
posted by elvissa at 2:11 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thanks everyone for your advice. I already put some of it into practice today - getting on the middle of the car is such good advice and I can't believe I never thought of it. I am also going to add some weight training to my workout routine, not so I can get into fights, but more so I feel a little less weak and powerless.
I felt a little crazy for how badly I was shaken up by the whole experience and I am happy to have a little plan going forward.
posted by elvissa at 2:11 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Glad to hear you've gotten useful suggestions! Even if you're at the end of the car, many folks change cars at a stop when there's a disturbance. If someone gets on my car and seems like they might be disruptive (angry, muttering to themselves, yelling at other people / noone) I try to preemptively switch, and haven't seen a fight (on the subway) in many years here!
posted by hyperion at 4:28 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by hyperion at 4:28 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
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posted by Brockles at 8:53 PM on January 26, 2016 [30 favorites]