Ok to still be friends with someone you have slept with in the past?
January 23, 2016 2:53 PM Subscribe
Say you're in a committed monogamous relationship. Your partner has a friend with whom they once had a one-night-stand, which was a singular event at the start of the friendship. This friend is close with your partner, and they discuss personal things like sex, and talk regularly. Is this ok, or not?
Snowflakes within.
I am the partner in this scenario. Early in 2015 I met up with a guy on OKC and had casual sex with him as an exercise in bicuriosity. It was regrettable, and I curtailed any further sexual relationship with him. Since then this guy and I have maintained contact and become good friends. We don't meet up IRL but text daily. We do discuss our sex lives. I like having this friend, as it's unusual for me to be open about sex with anyone besides my partner, and I think it's a healthy thing to have in my life.
My partner is Very Not Ok with this. She met me a long time after the incident where I had sex with this guy. I told her upfront about it, and that I regretted it but that I've moved on from that and am happy to be friends with him. She's convinced that he's trying to get in between me and her, and that he has ulterior motives about me.
As far as I'm concerned, whether he has a crush on me or not is irrelevant because he knows I'm not interested and he has done nothing inappropriate since I told him I didn't want to pursue a sexual relationship. I feel that I should be allowed to have close friends and discuss sex with them regardless of gender, and that the sex incident was an anomaly that I did at a very bad stage in my life. (Apart from this incident, I have never had casual sex and in fact the only other person I've slept with in my whole life was my long term ex-girlfriend of three years). The fact we had sex once does not impact the friendship, as far as I'm concerned.
According to my partner, the fact that I once slept with this guy means it's inappropriate for me to be close friends with him in this way. My partner is a butch/masculine/genderqueer/FTM-spectrum lesbian and has had girlfriends leave her for men before, and is very insecure about the possibility that her female partners will look for satisfaction with a "real" man. I understand her insecurities, but I feel she should take me at my word that I am not interested in men in general, and definitely not in this guy in particular, that I am a lesbian and want her for who and what she is, and have no desire for a "real man".
She also cannot seem to accept the fact that I found the one-night-stand regrettable, but am still willing to be friend with the guy and discuss sex with him. She seems unwilling to hear my explanation of the friendship, and when I try I start doubting myself.
The reasons I decided to sleep with the guy were to do with wanting to at least give it a try at a time in my life when it was an option, and because he was experienced and cool with casual sex, is queer himself, is educated in queer politics & theory, and was a safe person to do so with. It wasn't to do with desire. I have realised I am not bisexual, but though I am essentially totally gay, I am not willing to say I would NEVER EVER desire a man just as a personal philosophy of trying to not limit myself to narrow self-imposed definitions. I have tried to talk about this calmly and clearly with her, but my willingness to be open-minded about the future and flexible about my identity is also something my partner finds troubling.
She and I are currently on a break. She wants me to scale back my friendship with this guy, but insists she doesn't want to control who I am or am not friends with. I told her if it would make her happy, I would stop talking about sex and other personal things with him, to which she responded that I should want to change the friendship "for my own sake", not "just for her"... I am getting klaxons sounding about being controlled and manipulated, and fundamentally not listened to about my own sexuality, feelings, and desires, which makes me feel crappy about the future prospects of this relationship. But, at the same time, I truly cannot decide if I'm being reasonable or unreasonable in wanting to maintain my friendship with the guy the way it is, considering my partner's insecurities. Outsiders' input would be much appreciated.
I am the partner in this scenario. Early in 2015 I met up with a guy on OKC and had casual sex with him as an exercise in bicuriosity. It was regrettable, and I curtailed any further sexual relationship with him. Since then this guy and I have maintained contact and become good friends. We don't meet up IRL but text daily. We do discuss our sex lives. I like having this friend, as it's unusual for me to be open about sex with anyone besides my partner, and I think it's a healthy thing to have in my life.
My partner is Very Not Ok with this. She met me a long time after the incident where I had sex with this guy. I told her upfront about it, and that I regretted it but that I've moved on from that and am happy to be friends with him. She's convinced that he's trying to get in between me and her, and that he has ulterior motives about me.
As far as I'm concerned, whether he has a crush on me or not is irrelevant because he knows I'm not interested and he has done nothing inappropriate since I told him I didn't want to pursue a sexual relationship. I feel that I should be allowed to have close friends and discuss sex with them regardless of gender, and that the sex incident was an anomaly that I did at a very bad stage in my life. (Apart from this incident, I have never had casual sex and in fact the only other person I've slept with in my whole life was my long term ex-girlfriend of three years). The fact we had sex once does not impact the friendship, as far as I'm concerned.
According to my partner, the fact that I once slept with this guy means it's inappropriate for me to be close friends with him in this way. My partner is a butch/masculine/genderqueer/FTM-spectrum lesbian and has had girlfriends leave her for men before, and is very insecure about the possibility that her female partners will look for satisfaction with a "real" man. I understand her insecurities, but I feel she should take me at my word that I am not interested in men in general, and definitely not in this guy in particular, that I am a lesbian and want her for who and what she is, and have no desire for a "real man".
She also cannot seem to accept the fact that I found the one-night-stand regrettable, but am still willing to be friend with the guy and discuss sex with him. She seems unwilling to hear my explanation of the friendship, and when I try I start doubting myself.
The reasons I decided to sleep with the guy were to do with wanting to at least give it a try at a time in my life when it was an option, and because he was experienced and cool with casual sex, is queer himself, is educated in queer politics & theory, and was a safe person to do so with. It wasn't to do with desire. I have realised I am not bisexual, but though I am essentially totally gay, I am not willing to say I would NEVER EVER desire a man just as a personal philosophy of trying to not limit myself to narrow self-imposed definitions. I have tried to talk about this calmly and clearly with her, but my willingness to be open-minded about the future and flexible about my identity is also something my partner finds troubling.
She and I are currently on a break. She wants me to scale back my friendship with this guy, but insists she doesn't want to control who I am or am not friends with. I told her if it would make her happy, I would stop talking about sex and other personal things with him, to which she responded that I should want to change the friendship "for my own sake", not "just for her"... I am getting klaxons sounding about being controlled and manipulated, and fundamentally not listened to about my own sexuality, feelings, and desires, which makes me feel crappy about the future prospects of this relationship. But, at the same time, I truly cannot decide if I'm being reasonable or unreasonable in wanting to maintain my friendship with the guy the way it is, considering my partner's insecurities. Outsiders' input would be much appreciated.
It's impossible to say for sure what you or your partner "should" do in this situation. This is a thing every couple has to work out for themselves.
For me personally, staying friends — close, tell-each-other-anything friends — with a few choice exes is very important, and I would definitely break up with someone who wasn't willing to accept that.
On the other hand, I know a lot of healthy, not-abusive, not-otherwise-manipulative relationships where staying friends with a one-time hookup, and continuing to discuss your sex life with them, would be Absolutely Not Okay. My parents have one of the healthiest marriages I've seen, have been together for decades, are very happy together — and would absolutely not think it was acceptable if the other one stayed friends and kept chatting about sex with an old flame.
So the fact that your partner doesn't like this is absolutely not a red flag on its own. If everything else about your relationship with her seems healthy, it is perfectly reasonable and not-fucked-up to take a bit of distance from this friend for her sake and stop discussing personal details with him. If you want to.
posted by nebulawindphone at 3:07 PM on January 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
For me personally, staying friends — close, tell-each-other-anything friends — with a few choice exes is very important, and I would definitely break up with someone who wasn't willing to accept that.
On the other hand, I know a lot of healthy, not-abusive, not-otherwise-manipulative relationships where staying friends with a one-time hookup, and continuing to discuss your sex life with them, would be Absolutely Not Okay. My parents have one of the healthiest marriages I've seen, have been together for decades, are very happy together — and would absolutely not think it was acceptable if the other one stayed friends and kept chatting about sex with an old flame.
So the fact that your partner doesn't like this is absolutely not a red flag on its own. If everything else about your relationship with her seems healthy, it is perfectly reasonable and not-fucked-up to take a bit of distance from this friend for her sake and stop discussing personal details with him. If you want to.
posted by nebulawindphone at 3:07 PM on January 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Here's the thing. It's not that you're going to run off with this dude, it's that you're sharing details of your private sex life with your partner with this dude she doesn't know.
It perfectly okay to be friends with a person you've had sex with in the past. It is NOT okay to be intimate with that person physically or intellectually, ESPECIALLY about intimacy that you share with your partner.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 3:13 PM on January 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
It perfectly okay to be friends with a person you've had sex with in the past. It is NOT okay to be intimate with that person physically or intellectually, ESPECIALLY about intimacy that you share with your partner.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 3:13 PM on January 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
Best answer: If you slept with this guy a year ago and your partner didn't come on the scene until a "long time" after that, and is now taking a break from you, it might all be a little too much drama in a young relationship.
That being said, while askme can be very "total honesty always" I would suggest not telling your future partners that you talk about your sex life a bunch with your friends. I mean, maybe it's obvious that you would talk about that stuff with friends, but it would make me feel uncomfortable if I was hanging out with my boyfriend's buddies and knew they knew allllll about that shit. I think the importance you've stressed to her about being free to discuss your sex life with this guy is what's weirding her out.
posted by cakelite at 3:15 PM on January 23, 2016 [18 favorites]
That being said, while askme can be very "total honesty always" I would suggest not telling your future partners that you talk about your sex life a bunch with your friends. I mean, maybe it's obvious that you would talk about that stuff with friends, but it would make me feel uncomfortable if I was hanging out with my boyfriend's buddies and knew they knew allllll about that shit. I think the importance you've stressed to her about being free to discuss your sex life with this guy is what's weirding her out.
posted by cakelite at 3:15 PM on January 23, 2016 [18 favorites]
Minor variations on this are a frequently asked question around here. My feeling is that this boils down to trust, or lack thereof, that you should be able to be platonic friends with exes and your partner should be OK with that, and that if the trust isn't there, changing who you're friends with isn't going to fix it. But this is interesting:
posted by adamrice at 3:17 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
she responded that I should want to change the friendship "for my own sake", not "just for her"Maybe this is bullshit and she's saying it defensively. Maybe she really does believe that it would be for your own good, but for reasons that don't apply to you. Maybe she sees…something? in your relationship with the guy that is concerning. I'd want to explore that.
posted by adamrice at 3:17 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I wouldn't accept her requirements. But some people do think friends with once-flings is a big deal (often because once-bitten-twice-shy, as here). Between the rock and hard place of controlling vs disregarding, I feel the least unfair thing is for these people to date people who are on the same page of at least what the most basic outlines of a relationship looks like. Sorry.
posted by anonymisc at 3:24 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by anonymisc at 3:24 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I got past this issue by scaling back a bit on the topics I discuss with my best friend who was once a partner of mine. We have plenty of other things we can talk about besides our current sex lives. Nobody asked me to do this, its just easier because that way, I'm never having a conversation that would make my husband uncomfortable if he walked in and heard it.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 3:39 PM on January 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 3:39 PM on January 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Best answer: For me (queer woman in a non-monogamous relationship with a non-binary trans partner), this would be unacceptable-- I need a partner to trust me that I am invested in them in a way that is about them, and not about my other attachments, and this would be equally true for me in a monogamous relationship. It's also often true that former sex partners are among the people you're least likely to sleep with; after all, you decided not to continue being sex partners for a reason! To my mind, the primary question is: how much is this about him being a man? Would she be upset if you were still friends with a woman you'd slept with before?
Most of the queer women I know are friends with quite a few people they've dated and/or slept with, because that's just how queer social circles tend to work (for example, my partner is currently out playing pool with a woman I used to date, who is one of my closest friends). Presumably she has seen this play out in multiple ways, including close friendships that remained friendships, close friendships that remained complicated, and close friendships that turned back into sexual relationships. Is her anxiety about what she has seen in your friendship, what she has seen in other friendships, or her own relationship history? If it's the first thing, I'd be more inclined to think you can work it out, but if it's either of the latter, it seems like she's judging you based on other people's actions, which isn't really fair.
That said, I don't think it's totally irrelevant if he has a crush on you; even if you're not interested, his interest will shape your dynamic with him, and is something you need to be careful about. It's not relevant to her trust in you, but it is something you should be thoughtful about, and she may be reacting to your sense that it doesn't matter.
posted by dizziest at 3:39 PM on January 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
Most of the queer women I know are friends with quite a few people they've dated and/or slept with, because that's just how queer social circles tend to work (for example, my partner is currently out playing pool with a woman I used to date, who is one of my closest friends). Presumably she has seen this play out in multiple ways, including close friendships that remained friendships, close friendships that remained complicated, and close friendships that turned back into sexual relationships. Is her anxiety about what she has seen in your friendship, what she has seen in other friendships, or her own relationship history? If it's the first thing, I'd be more inclined to think you can work it out, but if it's either of the latter, it seems like she's judging you based on other people's actions, which isn't really fair.
That said, I don't think it's totally irrelevant if he has a crush on you; even if you're not interested, his interest will shape your dynamic with him, and is something you need to be careful about. It's not relevant to her trust in you, but it is something you should be thoughtful about, and she may be reacting to your sense that it doesn't matter.
posted by dizziest at 3:39 PM on January 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
To my mind, the primary question is: how much is this about him being a man? Would she be upset if you were still friends with a woman you'd slept with before?
Oh, I think that's a really interesting question! That could lead you to a really relevant detail and may give you more insight into her perspective on this. Has she had a bad experience with a similar situation that this is recalling for her?
She wants me to scale back my friendship with this guy, but insists she doesn't want to control who I am or am not friends with.
Is there some reason you don't believe her when she says this? If she isn't saying "No. You must never, ever see this guy again!" so it sounds like the fears about her trying to be controlling and manipulating aren't really justified. She's just feeling uncomfortable and is, IMO, asking for a reasonable compromise.
The part about "you should want this" to me sounds like just normal "I wish my husband would want to clean instead of just doing it when I ask". He'll do it but he'll never want to do it. And I've decided this is something I can live with since he accepts my faults, too. This may just be a pick your battle time - it's okay to do something for your partner even though it isn't something you'd think to do on your own. It's just a compromise - not a controlling thing.
Someone said above that they would feel weird being around a third party who knew a lot of intimate details. I'd have to agree. For me, stuff like that belongs in the couples-only column.
posted by Beti at 3:58 PM on January 23, 2016
Oh, I think that's a really interesting question! That could lead you to a really relevant detail and may give you more insight into her perspective on this. Has she had a bad experience with a similar situation that this is recalling for her?
She wants me to scale back my friendship with this guy, but insists she doesn't want to control who I am or am not friends with.
Is there some reason you don't believe her when she says this? If she isn't saying "No. You must never, ever see this guy again!" so it sounds like the fears about her trying to be controlling and manipulating aren't really justified. She's just feeling uncomfortable and is, IMO, asking for a reasonable compromise.
The part about "you should want this" to me sounds like just normal "I wish my husband would want to clean instead of just doing it when I ask". He'll do it but he'll never want to do it. And I've decided this is something I can live with since he accepts my faults, too. This may just be a pick your battle time - it's okay to do something for your partner even though it isn't something you'd think to do on your own. It's just a compromise - not a controlling thing.
Someone said above that they would feel weird being around a third party who knew a lot of intimate details. I'd have to agree. For me, stuff like that belongs in the couples-only column.
posted by Beti at 3:58 PM on January 23, 2016
Best answer: I tend to agree that having a friend with whom you can talk about sex is important, and as long as you aren't getting weird vibes off him when you talk about sex, I think it's fine that it's this guy. In a way, actually, it's easier to talk about sex with someone you've slept with but have no plans ever to sleep with again - you've already been vulnerable with them about sexual stuff and you don't need to keep up some kind of front. Also, this guy isn't even a mutual friend - if you talk about personal stuff with him, your partner doesn't have to look at him across the dinner table and wonder.
You haven't said that you have any reason to believe that he's trying to get back together with you and that he has casual sex with people - does your girlfriend have any concrete reason to believe that he's trying to start something back up with you?
Also, it sounds to me like your girlfriend is being a bit untrusting on the lesbianism front - you're telling her "Bar some very unusual situation, I never want to sleep with a man again, and definitely not this guy" - that's a much stronger statement than if you were interested in men on a regular basis.
I tend to believe that relationships require a degree of Purposeful Ignoring. Most people need to be able to confide intimate details about their relationships to their close friends, and it's really healthy to be able to talk about sexual and romantic stuff and get a sense of what is possible/desirable/common. I think the idea that talking about our sexual and romantic lives is a betrayal of a partner is really retrograde - it keeps us locked in with our own experiences. It's like when workers are told not to talk about their pay - you don't know if you're being paid fairly, because it's "improper" to talk about that stuff. Not that sexual relationships are about the same kind of fairness, but just having a sense of ordinary human variability is important. And so - I think it's important to be able to both accept and let go of the idea that your partner's close friend/friends may know some stuff about your intimate life.
posted by Frowner at 4:11 PM on January 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
You haven't said that you have any reason to believe that he's trying to get back together with you and that he has casual sex with people - does your girlfriend have any concrete reason to believe that he's trying to start something back up with you?
Also, it sounds to me like your girlfriend is being a bit untrusting on the lesbianism front - you're telling her "Bar some very unusual situation, I never want to sleep with a man again, and definitely not this guy" - that's a much stronger statement than if you were interested in men on a regular basis.
I tend to believe that relationships require a degree of Purposeful Ignoring. Most people need to be able to confide intimate details about their relationships to their close friends, and it's really healthy to be able to talk about sexual and romantic stuff and get a sense of what is possible/desirable/common. I think the idea that talking about our sexual and romantic lives is a betrayal of a partner is really retrograde - it keeps us locked in with our own experiences. It's like when workers are told not to talk about their pay - you don't know if you're being paid fairly, because it's "improper" to talk about that stuff. Not that sexual relationships are about the same kind of fairness, but just having a sense of ordinary human variability is important. And so - I think it's important to be able to both accept and let go of the idea that your partner's close friend/friends may know some stuff about your intimate life.
posted by Frowner at 4:11 PM on January 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
To illustrate the range of what people consider "okay": I don't really like discussing my sex life with friends. Not out of prudery, but for the same reason I don't like talking about our finances: it's a me-and-my-partner thing, not just a me thing. If I were dating someone who had a platonic friend, close enough to talk every day, with whom they regularly discussed their sex life - their sex-with-me life - I'd feel pretty weird about that. The former-one-night-stand status would be a weirdness multiplier, rather than the main weird thing.
I don't think it's unreasonable or overly insecure for her to want you to stop talking about your sex-with-her life with your friend. And the "I want you to want this" isn't emotional manipulation; she wants you to understand that she's uncomfortable with this and to be on her side, rather than honoring her request reluctantly and resentfully.
It's fine for you to consider that an unreasonable request, and you wouldn't be wrong. But it's not the kind of thing where she's definitely absolutely wrong and unreasonable.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:11 PM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't think it's unreasonable or overly insecure for her to want you to stop talking about your sex-with-her life with your friend. And the "I want you to want this" isn't emotional manipulation; she wants you to understand that she's uncomfortable with this and to be on her side, rather than honoring her request reluctantly and resentfully.
It's fine for you to consider that an unreasonable request, and you wouldn't be wrong. But it's not the kind of thing where she's definitely absolutely wrong and unreasonable.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:11 PM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Yes, it is absolutely to do with him being a man, she has said so explicitly. This is what makes the situation more complicated, because it brings up issues about gender and sexuality. Not only do I feel there's a trust issue in that she can't trust my friendship; I also feel there's something upsetting about the way she's invalidating my own experiences and my own understanding of my sexuality and judging me based on other people and bad experiences in her own past. It's like I'm having to prove to her that I'm really gay and that I'm not like other girls in her life who have left her for men, and my friendship with this man is somehow overriding everything else about me and what I say about myself: ergo I feel she isn't really seeing me, she's projecting her insecurities on to me and on to the situation. She doesn't believe in my commitment towards her (which would be the same and just as trustworthy even if I WAS bi...)
I am totally down with not discussing my sex life with my partner with my friend. Compromise is something I'm totally willing to do and I have said that. It's her insistence that I need to see the situation in exactly the same way as her that makes me bristle. She's also given as a reason for the "change for my own sake" comment that my friendship with the guy would be troubling to any potential future partner I was with, which I flat out disagree with.
posted by mymbleth at 4:12 PM on January 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
I am totally down with not discussing my sex life with my partner with my friend. Compromise is something I'm totally willing to do and I have said that. It's her insistence that I need to see the situation in exactly the same way as her that makes me bristle. She's also given as a reason for the "change for my own sake" comment that my friendship with the guy would be troubling to any potential future partner I was with, which I flat out disagree with.
posted by mymbleth at 4:12 PM on January 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Given that this guy is someone you only text with, I hate to say it but in your shoes I'd consider downgrading this relationship if I wanted to stay with my current partner. Only because, to be honest, this isn't all that close a friendship - you don't meet up with this person IRL, you just message them.
I used to have an ex who I texted/IM'd daily but never saw IRL because we lived in different countries. He got a girlfriend/now wife who flipped the f*** out over our friendship and demanded he stop messaging me, as she was insanely jealous and insecure. Though we thought it was ridiculous and not ok for her to demand this, since I'm really not in his life other than this minimal way, and she's the one with him every day, eventually he decided it wasn't worth making her upset to continue maintaining our friendship on this level. I was not pleased with his decision and still think very poorly of this woman for being so insecure and immature, but... well when faced with it, I don't blame him.
But yeah, without knowing more about your gf and your relationship, it's hard to say whether giving in would help anything, or if something else would just come up later. You know her best, sounds like you're currently evaluating the relationship as a whole. Good luck.
posted by lizbunny at 4:20 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I used to have an ex who I texted/IM'd daily but never saw IRL because we lived in different countries. He got a girlfriend/now wife who flipped the f*** out over our friendship and demanded he stop messaging me, as she was insanely jealous and insecure. Though we thought it was ridiculous and not ok for her to demand this, since I'm really not in his life other than this minimal way, and she's the one with him every day, eventually he decided it wasn't worth making her upset to continue maintaining our friendship on this level. I was not pleased with his decision and still think very poorly of this woman for being so insecure and immature, but... well when faced with it, I don't blame him.
But yeah, without knowing more about your gf and your relationship, it's hard to say whether giving in would help anything, or if something else would just come up later. You know her best, sounds like you're currently evaluating the relationship as a whole. Good luck.
posted by lizbunny at 4:20 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: "It's like I'm having to prove to her that I'm really gay and that I'm not like other girls in her life who have left her for men, and my friendship with this man is somehow overriding everything else about me and what I say about myself"
But one of the things you're saying about yourself is "though I am essentially totally gay, I am not willing to say I would NEVER EVER desire a man just as a personal philosophy of trying to not limit myself to narrow self-imposed definitions" which I think she's hearing pretty well. You're saying "I'm gay, you need to trust that" and she's saying "You never want to sleep with a man?" and you're replying, "Well, I'm not going to say THAT."
She needs reassurance to feel safe in the relationship, especially since she has been hurt in that exact fashion before. You refuse to provide her reassurance because providing that reassurance goes against the ways you want to define -- or not define -- yourself and your sexuality. (Sidenote: whether he has a crush on you ABSOLUTELY matters for her sense of emotional safety, and matters for your relationship with him, because someone who rejects your current relationship because they have a crush on you and want to be with you is someone who will undermine your current relationship, not the sort of friend who supports your emotional happiness with your partner. It's super-naive that you seem to think otherwise. It doesn't MATTER that you don't have a crush on him; if he has a crush on you, he is working to undermine your relationship and you're continuing a friendship with someone who is actively undermining your girlfriend. That's hella disrespectful to her, even if you think it "shouldn't matter" since you're not interested in him.) She is not going to be able to feel secure in this relationship if you refuse to give her the emotional support and reassurance she needs. If you feel that her needing emotional support and reassurance is too controlling or needy, then, no, this relationship is probably not going to work, because your emotional needs are incompatible. Neither of you is wrong, but your refusal to meet her needs will make her feel needier and more insecure, which I'm guessing will make you more resentful of her emotional needs and more resistant to meeting them. It will be a mutually-reinforcing spiral of unhappiness.
I don't think your friendship with this guy, and its appropriateness, is nearly as important here as the fact that she's saying "I'm expressing an emotional need that is very understandable, especially given my past history" and you're saying, "I can not meet your need, and I don't want to try to meet it, because I think even your expression of these emotional needs reflect a lack of trust in me." That's just such a glaring incompatibility that I can't really imagine this working out.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:32 PM on January 23, 2016 [27 favorites]
But one of the things you're saying about yourself is "though I am essentially totally gay, I am not willing to say I would NEVER EVER desire a man just as a personal philosophy of trying to not limit myself to narrow self-imposed definitions" which I think she's hearing pretty well. You're saying "I'm gay, you need to trust that" and she's saying "You never want to sleep with a man?" and you're replying, "Well, I'm not going to say THAT."
She needs reassurance to feel safe in the relationship, especially since she has been hurt in that exact fashion before. You refuse to provide her reassurance because providing that reassurance goes against the ways you want to define -- or not define -- yourself and your sexuality. (Sidenote: whether he has a crush on you ABSOLUTELY matters for her sense of emotional safety, and matters for your relationship with him, because someone who rejects your current relationship because they have a crush on you and want to be with you is someone who will undermine your current relationship, not the sort of friend who supports your emotional happiness with your partner. It's super-naive that you seem to think otherwise. It doesn't MATTER that you don't have a crush on him; if he has a crush on you, he is working to undermine your relationship and you're continuing a friendship with someone who is actively undermining your girlfriend. That's hella disrespectful to her, even if you think it "shouldn't matter" since you're not interested in him.) She is not going to be able to feel secure in this relationship if you refuse to give her the emotional support and reassurance she needs. If you feel that her needing emotional support and reassurance is too controlling or needy, then, no, this relationship is probably not going to work, because your emotional needs are incompatible. Neither of you is wrong, but your refusal to meet her needs will make her feel needier and more insecure, which I'm guessing will make you more resentful of her emotional needs and more resistant to meeting them. It will be a mutually-reinforcing spiral of unhappiness.
I don't think your friendship with this guy, and its appropriateness, is nearly as important here as the fact that she's saying "I'm expressing an emotional need that is very understandable, especially given my past history" and you're saying, "I can not meet your need, and I don't want to try to meet it, because I think even your expression of these emotional needs reflect a lack of trust in me." That's just such a glaring incompatibility that I can't really imagine this working out.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:32 PM on January 23, 2016 [27 favorites]
Best answer: I think she's asking a lot and the ways she is pressuring you send up red flags to me.
I think it's reasonable to ask you not to talk about your sex life with someone else and if you're spending a lot of time with someone else and a lot of your energy is going towards them, it's reasonable to ask you to shift that energy towards your relationship. But that doesn't sound like what she's asking.
It is literally impossible for you to prove you're 100% gay. If she was the first woman you dated, it might be more reasonable, but the fact that you dated another woman for three years should be more than enough proof that you aren't just 'curious.' There doesn't seem to be a way for you to prove yourself in this situation, which sets you up in a position to constantly have to prove your commitment and she is always in the position of judging whether it's enough. She's also manipulating you (not necessarily on purpose) by making you really want to prove that you're not one of those other terrible girls. Does it feel like even if you break up with her and not date a man or anyone, she might talk about you to her next girlfriend like that?
I sympathize with her worries, and they're tied up with a lot of societal issues about sexuality and gender than she can't do much about but definitely do hurt her and effect the ways people act in relationship with her and that sucks.
It also depends on how serious this relationship is. Weight the value of this friendship with your relationship. If everything other than this is going amazingly, and you see yourself in a long-term relationship (which sounds like your goal), then I think you should consider ending the friendship, because your girlfriend is more important (and not hold any sort of grudge or sulk about it).
posted by raeka at 4:48 PM on January 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think it's reasonable to ask you not to talk about your sex life with someone else and if you're spending a lot of time with someone else and a lot of your energy is going towards them, it's reasonable to ask you to shift that energy towards your relationship. But that doesn't sound like what she's asking.
It is literally impossible for you to prove you're 100% gay. If she was the first woman you dated, it might be more reasonable, but the fact that you dated another woman for three years should be more than enough proof that you aren't just 'curious.' There doesn't seem to be a way for you to prove yourself in this situation, which sets you up in a position to constantly have to prove your commitment and she is always in the position of judging whether it's enough. She's also manipulating you (not necessarily on purpose) by making you really want to prove that you're not one of those other terrible girls. Does it feel like even if you break up with her and not date a man or anyone, she might talk about you to her next girlfriend like that?
I sympathize with her worries, and they're tied up with a lot of societal issues about sexuality and gender than she can't do much about but definitely do hurt her and effect the ways people act in relationship with her and that sucks.
It also depends on how serious this relationship is. Weight the value of this friendship with your relationship. If everything other than this is going amazingly, and you see yourself in a long-term relationship (which sounds like your goal), then I think you should consider ending the friendship, because your girlfriend is more important (and not hold any sort of grudge or sulk about it).
posted by raeka at 4:48 PM on January 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Many people are ok with their friends staying friends with an ex. But most people aren't ok with having their partner discuss their sex life with someone who was or is sexual competition (i.e. someone you want to, or have had, sex with.) There's nothing weird or needy about her not being ok with you doing that.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:48 PM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:48 PM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
She and I are currently on a break.
Make it a clean break.
posted by littlewater at 5:39 PM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Make it a clean break.
posted by littlewater at 5:39 PM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Wait, do you discuss sex with your current partner with this friend? Because that would change this dynamic quite a bit. I think it's totally fair to ask that your partner not discuss intimate sexual details about them with a friend. If I found out someone I was dating was giving their friend the play-by-play of our sex life, I would feel my trust had been violated. I think it's fair to assume a few details here and there might get discussed, but if you have a friend who you talk about as "the friend I talk about sex with" I can see why your partner would be up in arms about this.
posted by deathpanels at 5:41 PM on January 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by deathpanels at 5:41 PM on January 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
Best answer: My experience with this kind of situation is that the unreasonable demands usually don't stop with one person/thing. It's not unreasonable for her to have feelings or opinions, but it is extremely unreasonable to imply that your feelings are wrong ("I want you to change this relationship for your own sake.")
I'd have a lot more respect for someone who said "this is irrational and based in my own baggage, but if we're going to be together then you need to stop doing x", but the way you describe it sounds icky and awfully close to gaslighting.
posted by frumiousb at 5:50 PM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'd have a lot more respect for someone who said "this is irrational and based in my own baggage, but if we're going to be together then you need to stop doing x", but the way you describe it sounds icky and awfully close to gaslighting.
posted by frumiousb at 5:50 PM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Best answer: Honestly, my response to this would be "If you need to be dating a gold-star lesbian, that's on you, and I don't qualify. If you want to date *me*, then you need to accept that my sexuality isn't that rigid." The ex-fling is a red herring here.
posted by restless_nomad at 5:56 PM on January 23, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 5:56 PM on January 23, 2016 [22 favorites]
Best answer: It's your business if you slept with someone else before her, or any number of someone elses. It's your business if you've remained friends with people you've been involved with. It's not okay for her to police your other emotional attachments and friendships, period, and it's not okay for her to do that on the basis of their gender or whether you had sex with them - the issue for her is your relationship with her, not her desire to pretend you never had sex with a man.
If you're friends with someone, the appropriate thing for her to do is to want to meet them and to give them a chance to be her friend too - if she wants to be your partner, she needs to accept you as a whole person, with other emotional connections and a past. That she's so hung up on this is a huge red flag, and I say this as a dyke who has been repeatedly dumped for men myself.
She may be saying that she doesn't want to control you, but that's not how she's acting. Your description reads like she wants you to realize that curtailing your friendship is somehow your choice, even though appeasing her unreasonable discomfort is the only reason you would have for that.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:38 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you're friends with someone, the appropriate thing for her to do is to want to meet them and to give them a chance to be her friend too - if she wants to be your partner, she needs to accept you as a whole person, with other emotional connections and a past. That she's so hung up on this is a huge red flag, and I say this as a dyke who has been repeatedly dumped for men myself.
She may be saying that she doesn't want to control you, but that's not how she's acting. Your description reads like she wants you to realize that curtailing your friendship is somehow your choice, even though appeasing her unreasonable discomfort is the only reason you would have for that.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:38 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: The problem isn't the facts of the situation, the problem is that you are doing something that triggering real serious insecurity in her and in turn she is asking you do something that makes you feel like she doesn't accept you for who you really are.
I would try to have a conversation that focusing on making sure each partner really gets what the problem is and feels really heard about this and hopefully gets a sense that their partner cares about how this makes them feel. Start by letting your partner go first. Have her tell you what this is like for her. Offer lots of reflection and validation. (This is what you are telling me right? I can understand why you feel this way, how hard it is for you). When she says that you got it and she can tell that you care, ask her to do the same for you - listen, reflect and validate. If you can get that, then you will be a good place to talk about what each want from the other and what you are each willing to do to help your partner.
If you want some guide for having these conversations, I would suggest Sue Johnson's book "Hold Me Tight - 7 Conversations for Lifetime of Love" I don't think she deals with this exactly but it would give you a structure of having this kind of heart-to-heart talk.
posted by metahawk at 6:38 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would try to have a conversation that focusing on making sure each partner really gets what the problem is and feels really heard about this and hopefully gets a sense that their partner cares about how this makes them feel. Start by letting your partner go first. Have her tell you what this is like for her. Offer lots of reflection and validation. (This is what you are telling me right? I can understand why you feel this way, how hard it is for you). When she says that you got it and she can tell that you care, ask her to do the same for you - listen, reflect and validate. If you can get that, then you will be a good place to talk about what each want from the other and what you are each willing to do to help your partner.
If you want some guide for having these conversations, I would suggest Sue Johnson's book "Hold Me Tight - 7 Conversations for Lifetime of Love" I don't think she deals with this exactly but it would give you a structure of having this kind of heart-to-heart talk.
posted by metahawk at 6:38 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
First of all this is wrong:
"I should be allowed to have close friends and discuss sex with them regardless of gender."
Please don't discuss your intimate shared sexual experiences, which naturally includes personal details about your SO, with outsiders. I need to get that out of the way. It's so icky and violating and unfair to your partner. It's the opposite of trust. Keep what's between you and your partner sacrosanct. If they don't want you to blab to others - don't.
I can see your GF's perspective about your text message buddy. I can't see for the life of me why you care more about this digital friend over the feelings of your Real Life Girlfriend.
Your digital buddy most likely sees you like a fun gossip site or reality show he checks in with daily. You're barely real friends. Stop feeding his jollies at your IRL relationship's expense.
Lastly
The gender thing is a red herring, a McGuffin. In this case, the gender issue is fueling an argument about trust. Focus on your trust issues.
posted by jbenben at 7:26 PM on January 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
"I should be allowed to have close friends and discuss sex with them regardless of gender."
Please don't discuss your intimate shared sexual experiences, which naturally includes personal details about your SO, with outsiders. I need to get that out of the way. It's so icky and violating and unfair to your partner. It's the opposite of trust. Keep what's between you and your partner sacrosanct. If they don't want you to blab to others - don't.
I can see your GF's perspective about your text message buddy. I can't see for the life of me why you care more about this digital friend over the feelings of your Real Life Girlfriend.
Your digital buddy most likely sees you like a fun gossip site or reality show he checks in with daily. You're barely real friends. Stop feeding his jollies at your IRL relationship's expense.
Lastly
The gender thing is a red herring, a McGuffin. In this case, the gender issue is fueling an argument about trust. Focus on your trust issues.
posted by jbenben at 7:26 PM on January 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
The problem is not the friendship. The problem is the discussions about sex, which you seem weirdly fixated on as important - you mention it a few times in the question and suggest not talking about the sex would be a "compromise" for you. Why is it so important for you to talk about sex - presumably, sex with your current partner - with your ex partner? I have a lot of exes I'm friends with, but I would in no way think it was cool to talk details of my sex life on the regular with them.
posted by corb at 8:05 PM on January 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by corb at 8:05 PM on January 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
If this were me, I'd be fine with the friendship - even with you spending time with them alone - but I would NOT be okay with you discussing our sex life with friends. That is not ok regardless of sexuality or gender. I expect my sex life with my partner to be between us and no outside people. You want to talk with friends about your masturbation habits or what you GENERALLY like and dislike, or what you've done with other people, that's fine. But what happens between me and my partner should stay that way.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 8:22 PM on January 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 8:22 PM on January 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Best answer: I hate to be such a big fat cynic, but yeah, honestly, I think you're pretty naive believing that this dude isn't at least considering getting in your pants again. Maybe it's because I've had a lot more experience with men trying to pursue me, as a straight woman, but dude- even if he's the most enlightened male in the world he's probably not going to nobly turn down sex with you should you ever even kinda think about it again.
Lots of dudes do this thing called "waiting in the wings." It's a real thing and he's probably done it before, if he's as into the casual sex scene as you say. He may be purposefully going after lesbian/queer women- plenty of dudes do. I mean, have you not even considered this because he's just Such A Nice Guy? You need to consider it. Seriously consider it before you rule it out entirely.
He texts you every day? Every day? Reallllllly? You met him specifically to have sex? That's how your relationship started? (When people ask how you met, do you lie?) His possible crush on you is "irrelevant"? You talk about sex a lot? ...
Really not hard to connect the dots here. Honestly think you're at least a little bit in denial, for what it's worth. Your partner may be partially in the wrong with her choice of how to react but that doesn't mean you're not also partially in the wrong.
posted by quincunx at 9:09 PM on January 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
Lots of dudes do this thing called "waiting in the wings." It's a real thing and he's probably done it before, if he's as into the casual sex scene as you say. He may be purposefully going after lesbian/queer women- plenty of dudes do. I mean, have you not even considered this because he's just Such A Nice Guy? You need to consider it. Seriously consider it before you rule it out entirely.
He texts you every day? Every day? Reallllllly? You met him specifically to have sex? That's how your relationship started? (When people ask how you met, do you lie?) His possible crush on you is "irrelevant"? You talk about sex a lot? ...
Really not hard to connect the dots here. Honestly think you're at least a little bit in denial, for what it's worth. Your partner may be partially in the wrong with her choice of how to react but that doesn't mean you're not also partially in the wrong.
posted by quincunx at 9:09 PM on January 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
Having regular sex oriented text message exchanges with another person is the opposite of anything the OP's real life GF is comfortable with. That's a pretty reasonable boundary for a committed relationship.
The problem for the OP is that she's committed to this regular text message exchange AND she's actually had sex with this person in the past PLUS the OP has a commitment to her GF. The texter guy has loyalty to neither the OP or her GF. Presumably he's in it for the fun and titillating running commentary. There's no trust issues for him, he's put nothing of value into the texting relationship.
The GF has put a lot of value into her relationship with the OP, and texter guy gets a heap of attention and stimulation from the OP for the price of his monthly phone plan. There's a giant disparity there. The GF sees it.
OP, why don't you see it?
posted by jbenben at 9:20 PM on January 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
The problem for the OP is that she's committed to this regular text message exchange AND she's actually had sex with this person in the past PLUS the OP has a commitment to her GF. The texter guy has loyalty to neither the OP or her GF. Presumably he's in it for the fun and titillating running commentary. There's no trust issues for him, he's put nothing of value into the texting relationship.
The GF has put a lot of value into her relationship with the OP, and texter guy gets a heap of attention and stimulation from the OP for the price of his monthly phone plan. There's a giant disparity there. The GF sees it.
OP, why don't you see it?
posted by jbenben at 9:20 PM on January 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
you have only had 3 sexual partners - a long relationship, this one night stand, and her, yes? is her sexual history similar in numbers? if so this might be an immaturity issue. as a queer woman, i won't date people who have problems with the fact that my partners haven't just been a specific gender and those attitudes are a deal breaker for me. you're perfectly in your rights for it to be a deal breaker for you. i can understand if she is inexperienced though, that hearing that half of your prior sexual relationships were with a man, a man who is in your life every day who you share intimate details with, that it would be challenging.
what it really boils down to though is that compatibility about how close friendships are and if they include people you've slept with is a big deal and you don't seem to be able to be eye to eye about this with your girlfriend. i don't think it's going to work yout.
posted by nadawi at 9:21 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
what it really boils down to though is that compatibility about how close friendships are and if they include people you've slept with is a big deal and you don't seem to be able to be eye to eye about this with your girlfriend. i don't think it's going to work yout.
posted by nadawi at 9:21 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: This is your girlfriend's problem, not yours. Please take it from someone who can relate so very hard to your question. My ex (masculine of center, gold star lesbian) was irrational about the one dude I dated in college and let me tell you: your girlfriend needs to deal with her fear that she isn't "man" enough for you because it's only going to get worse. Many "real" lesbians have experimented with men and a secure person (like your friend, and unlike your girlfriend) will accept you when you say that you are no longer interested in sleeping with men.
Note, my answer hinges on you describing yourself not as bisexual but as a lesbian. It would be a different set of issues if you were bisexual and your girlfriend was jealous of your male friend. The issue here is that your girlfriend doesn't respect that you get to define your identity and instead has decided to fixate on this friendship.
I sympathized with my ex because the thing I loved most about her (her butchness!) was something society questioned—she either wasn't "woman" enough or "man enough" for the majority of the people she interacted with, and that makes me want to weep for the bullshit heaped upon her, including other girls who left her for men or tried to push her into transitioning when she had no desire to do so.
However, sympathy ends when it turns into controlling behavior like you (and I) have experienced. You are your own person, not every person who hurt her in her past, and she needs to approach you as such. I suspect your girlfriend is using your friend as a way to deflect the real problem, which is that she isn't secure enough to believe that you want her just as she is. Regardless of how heartbreaking that is, she needs to conquer that demon. You can't convince her that your friend
poses no threat until she has done that. I'm not trying to say that she's a hopeless case or a bad person, but it is unacceptable that she's calling your identity into play to protect her own.
I'm also not saying that you should continue this friendship, because I have some suspicion that this is walking a line of being an emotional affair because you can confide in this guy and be accepted, whereas your girlfriend isn't offering you that. It's not entirely fair to put the blame all on her, but I have a feeling that in a secure relationship you wouldn't be so attached to keeping this friendship at the level of intimacy it is now.
(I will admit to being deeply biased in my answer by my ex, who asked me repeatedly after we broke up if I was going to date men and implied that was the real reason we didn't work—because that's easier for her to understand than seeing the huge rifts her self esteem issues caused when she refused to really accept me as a lesbian because of the one man in my past in a lifetime of loving women. Took some serious therapy to deal after that!)
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 12:32 AM on January 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Note, my answer hinges on you describing yourself not as bisexual but as a lesbian. It would be a different set of issues if you were bisexual and your girlfriend was jealous of your male friend. The issue here is that your girlfriend doesn't respect that you get to define your identity and instead has decided to fixate on this friendship.
I sympathized with my ex because the thing I loved most about her (her butchness!) was something society questioned—she either wasn't "woman" enough or "man enough" for the majority of the people she interacted with, and that makes me want to weep for the bullshit heaped upon her, including other girls who left her for men or tried to push her into transitioning when she had no desire to do so.
However, sympathy ends when it turns into controlling behavior like you (and I) have experienced. You are your own person, not every person who hurt her in her past, and she needs to approach you as such. I suspect your girlfriend is using your friend as a way to deflect the real problem, which is that she isn't secure enough to believe that you want her just as she is. Regardless of how heartbreaking that is, she needs to conquer that demon. You can't convince her that your friend
poses no threat until she has done that. I'm not trying to say that she's a hopeless case or a bad person, but it is unacceptable that she's calling your identity into play to protect her own.
I'm also not saying that you should continue this friendship, because I have some suspicion that this is walking a line of being an emotional affair because you can confide in this guy and be accepted, whereas your girlfriend isn't offering you that. It's not entirely fair to put the blame all on her, but I have a feeling that in a secure relationship you wouldn't be so attached to keeping this friendship at the level of intimacy it is now.
(I will admit to being deeply biased in my answer by my ex, who asked me repeatedly after we broke up if I was going to date men and implied that was the real reason we didn't work—because that's easier for her to understand than seeing the huge rifts her self esteem issues caused when she refused to really accept me as a lesbian because of the one man in my past in a lifetime of loving women. Took some serious therapy to deal after that!)
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 12:32 AM on January 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Best answer: mymbleth, I'm going to frame this in another way for you based on nadawi's comment above. See if you can't come along with me to view this situation from another perspective....
You frame this as being friends with someone you once slept with, and wanting to remain friends with an ex. Your GF seems (from your description, she might have deeper views you haven't internalized) that she's worried because this ex is male.
I'm going to offer that the gender of this texting friend is the label she has given her deep red flashing neon lights concerning this friendship, when really, it's the fact that a 3rd person unrelated to her in any way is privy to the intimate workings of you personally, and via extension, her personal life. So from this angle, your friend (is he really a true friend?) has a lot of influence in an area most people reserve for folks they have personally vetted and have CHOSEN to trust.
Now. Forgive me if I'm wrong you've never deeply examined why you trust this person you mostly relate to via text message, but that's how it looks to me. I gather from your description that's how it looks to your GF.
Trust in relationships, and especially trust in sexual relationships, is HUGE. It's the deciding factor of satisfaction and happiness. Trust is the nourishment relationships thrive on.
When you don't have a ton of experience, you're open to everybody. Then you get hurt a bunch, and you learn discernment. Sometimes you over-correct your mistakes! So you correct your judgement again. Hopefully, you eventually learn how to trust good folks and populate your world with others that comport themselves appropriately and are Trustwothy.
Do you see what I mean?
I can see (as an old person with many mistakes behind her!) why you enjoy this texting relationship. I can also see why it's probably not meaning to you what it does to your text buddy, that for him it is less serious. Despite anything he writes you. Again, he has little investment. Your GF has direct enormous investment in her relationship with you. Your GF did not choose to have this outside influence inside of her safe relationship sphere she is (hopefully) building with you.
Would your text friend be even half as engaged with you if he were not privy to your intimate thoughts and feelings and experiences? If not, doesn't that strike you as lopsided?
Maybe he shares his exploits. Do his partners know? Would it be upsetting for them if they knew??
On a fundamental level, no one wants to be gossiped about because it is a violation. You're not sharing with a decades long friend. If you were, you would not be talking about sexual issues on the regular with them. You would have PLENTY more to exchange about! At some point, you realize where the line is and you really really want to preserve and protect your partnership. You only talk about sex in specific terms when it's 10000% safe and private. This text exchange you are currently enjoying is not that. It's not wrong, per se! But it's not right either, if you want your partner to feel safe being intimate with you.
So there's your choice. Either you keep texting, or you preserve the intimacy and trust in your primary relationship.
At this stage in your life, either choice is right. One choice, however, is wrong for your GF's basic need to feel safe in a relationship with you.
Which is more important to you?
I'm an old person, I'm here to tell you whatever plumbing someone possesses is not an issue. Trust is always paramount. And Love.
Do whatever is right for you. Respect what's right for the other people and set them free or work on maintaining bonds, accordingly.
posted by jbenben at 1:08 AM on January 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
You frame this as being friends with someone you once slept with, and wanting to remain friends with an ex. Your GF seems (from your description, she might have deeper views you haven't internalized) that she's worried because this ex is male.
I'm going to offer that the gender of this texting friend is the label she has given her deep red flashing neon lights concerning this friendship, when really, it's the fact that a 3rd person unrelated to her in any way is privy to the intimate workings of you personally, and via extension, her personal life. So from this angle, your friend (is he really a true friend?) has a lot of influence in an area most people reserve for folks they have personally vetted and have CHOSEN to trust.
Now. Forgive me if I'm wrong you've never deeply examined why you trust this person you mostly relate to via text message, but that's how it looks to me. I gather from your description that's how it looks to your GF.
Trust in relationships, and especially trust in sexual relationships, is HUGE. It's the deciding factor of satisfaction and happiness. Trust is the nourishment relationships thrive on.
When you don't have a ton of experience, you're open to everybody. Then you get hurt a bunch, and you learn discernment. Sometimes you over-correct your mistakes! So you correct your judgement again. Hopefully, you eventually learn how to trust good folks and populate your world with others that comport themselves appropriately and are Trustwothy.
Do you see what I mean?
I can see (as an old person with many mistakes behind her!) why you enjoy this texting relationship. I can also see why it's probably not meaning to you what it does to your text buddy, that for him it is less serious. Despite anything he writes you. Again, he has little investment. Your GF has direct enormous investment in her relationship with you. Your GF did not choose to have this outside influence inside of her safe relationship sphere she is (hopefully) building with you.
Would your text friend be even half as engaged with you if he were not privy to your intimate thoughts and feelings and experiences? If not, doesn't that strike you as lopsided?
Maybe he shares his exploits. Do his partners know? Would it be upsetting for them if they knew??
On a fundamental level, no one wants to be gossiped about because it is a violation. You're not sharing with a decades long friend. If you were, you would not be talking about sexual issues on the regular with them. You would have PLENTY more to exchange about! At some point, you realize where the line is and you really really want to preserve and protect your partnership. You only talk about sex in specific terms when it's 10000% safe and private. This text exchange you are currently enjoying is not that. It's not wrong, per se! But it's not right either, if you want your partner to feel safe being intimate with you.
So there's your choice. Either you keep texting, or you preserve the intimacy and trust in your primary relationship.
At this stage in your life, either choice is right. One choice, however, is wrong for your GF's basic need to feel safe in a relationship with you.
Which is more important to you?
I'm an old person, I'm here to tell you whatever plumbing someone possesses is not an issue. Trust is always paramount. And Love.
Do whatever is right for you. Respect what's right for the other people and set them free or work on maintaining bonds, accordingly.
posted by jbenben at 1:08 AM on January 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Best answer: She wants me to scale back my friendship with this guy, but insists she doesn't want to control who I am or am not friends with
This doesn't add up, at all. She wants to control who you can be friends with, but she doesn't want you to stop being friends with this person? She's not being honest with herself here. Fair enough, she doesn't want to "be the bad guy", but that's what she's doing.
Part of being in a relationship with someone is accepting that someone for who they are as a person. If an individual wants their partner to be someone other than the person they are, the correct thing to do is find a parter who lives up that that Ideal Standard Of A Partner. It's not to ignore in individual's right to be themselves and try to coerce and prune them into being a different person. What your partner is doing right now is a short step away from what abusers do - separating you from your friends, minimising your feelings and gaslighting you about what [her/their] motivations are. She might not want to see herself in this role, but that's what it looks like she's doing, to me.
It's going to be healthier for her, long term, to not date you if it's going to make her feel like this. If she wants to date someone who doesn't have your history, then perhaps she needs to get out there and find that someone.
One of my metrics for a relationship is "it's OK to do, if you think it's OK to do". You get to have whatever kind of relationships you want to have. However, you also have to consider your partners in those relationships. You have a duty to your partners to not cause them pain, which means you might have to be the fall guy and end things so as not to hurt them any further. Loving someone is not enough, you have to be able to coexist in a relationship with them too. It's your partner's responsibility to end things if they're not working, but it's your responsibility too.
posted by Solomon at 1:09 AM on January 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
This doesn't add up, at all. She wants to control who you can be friends with, but she doesn't want you to stop being friends with this person? She's not being honest with herself here. Fair enough, she doesn't want to "be the bad guy", but that's what she's doing.
Part of being in a relationship with someone is accepting that someone for who they are as a person. If an individual wants their partner to be someone other than the person they are, the correct thing to do is find a parter who lives up that that Ideal Standard Of A Partner. It's not to ignore in individual's right to be themselves and try to coerce and prune them into being a different person. What your partner is doing right now is a short step away from what abusers do - separating you from your friends, minimising your feelings and gaslighting you about what [her/their] motivations are. She might not want to see herself in this role, but that's what it looks like she's doing, to me.
It's going to be healthier for her, long term, to not date you if it's going to make her feel like this. If she wants to date someone who doesn't have your history, then perhaps she needs to get out there and find that someone.
One of my metrics for a relationship is "it's OK to do, if you think it's OK to do". You get to have whatever kind of relationships you want to have. However, you also have to consider your partners in those relationships. You have a duty to your partners to not cause them pain, which means you might have to be the fall guy and end things so as not to hurt them any further. Loving someone is not enough, you have to be able to coexist in a relationship with them too. It's your partner's responsibility to end things if they're not working, but it's your responsibility too.
posted by Solomon at 1:09 AM on January 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would be perfectly fine with my partner having a friend that they had slept with. I would not be fine with my partner sharing intimate details or our sex life with a not-entirely-platonic friend at all. I'm picking up that you would never leave your girlfriend for your friend, or get with him again full stop, yet there is a vibe between you that isn't just friends. You don't deny that he has a crush on you, you just say it is "irrelevant". He is one of three people that you have slept with. You speak very intimately to each other. There is something there.
She obviously has insecurities about past events and instead of trying to allay her fears, you're pressing her buttons so hard that the poor woman doesn't know what to do with herself. I see her dilemma - she's not comfortable and she wants to be honest about this but also she knows you can't force people to do things.
I think that if you tried to allay her fears rather than taking the defensive line she might actually start behaving more reasonably. Try and be a bit more "team us" with her, rather than him. Stop trying to explain away the friendship and show her you love her and that you don't want to be without her. Introduce her to your friend (if you haven't already) and show her you can just have a normal friendship with him. Show your friend that you are with her. Scale back the sex talk, if only for the reason that if it continues, you could lose her. And if losing her doesn't bother you so much, then perhaps it is time to let her go and find someone who really loves her.
posted by intensitymultiply at 1:47 AM on January 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
She obviously has insecurities about past events and instead of trying to allay her fears, you're pressing her buttons so hard that the poor woman doesn't know what to do with herself. I see her dilemma - she's not comfortable and she wants to be honest about this but also she knows you can't force people to do things.
I think that if you tried to allay her fears rather than taking the defensive line she might actually start behaving more reasonably. Try and be a bit more "team us" with her, rather than him. Stop trying to explain away the friendship and show her you love her and that you don't want to be without her. Introduce her to your friend (if you haven't already) and show her you can just have a normal friendship with him. Show your friend that you are with her. Scale back the sex talk, if only for the reason that if it continues, you could lose her. And if losing her doesn't bother you so much, then perhaps it is time to let her go and find someone who really loves her.
posted by intensitymultiply at 1:47 AM on January 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
Many people are ok with their friends staying friends with an ex. But most people aren't ok with having their partner discuss their sex life with someone who was or is sexual competition (i.e. someone you want to, or have had, sex with.) There's nothing weird or needy about her not being ok with you doing that.
Friends with an ex seems so unexceptional to me as to be almost not worth noticing. But talking about one's sex life with other people (exes or not) would stand out to me, and I'd want to get those boundaries clarified.
There's also a distinction between talking about your sex life more in a friendly way, versus in a flirting way. It's kind of a "you know it when you see it" distinction rather than something with easily described boundaries, but if your sex talks with the ex verge into that flirty category then I can easily understand the discomfort.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:27 AM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Friends with an ex seems so unexceptional to me as to be almost not worth noticing. But talking about one's sex life with other people (exes or not) would stand out to me, and I'd want to get those boundaries clarified.
There's also a distinction between talking about your sex life more in a friendly way, versus in a flirting way. It's kind of a "you know it when you see it" distinction rather than something with easily described boundaries, but if your sex talks with the ex verge into that flirty category then I can easily understand the discomfort.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:27 AM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's a huge space between talking about sex as a general thing vs talking about your sex life, and I think this is different for queer people than it is for cis straight people. I think there's some good advice here but there's also a lot of what reads to me as heterosexist bias about gendered behavior. None of us are privy to the conversations you're having with your friend, but I think people's dismissals of him as necessarily inappropriate when you don't feel that way are based on hetero norms, and queer norms can be significantly different.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:03 AM on January 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 8:03 AM on January 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
Nthing bile and syntax that many of these answers are skewing heterosexual norms. Not that straight people can't advise queer women (as my comment will attest), but talking about sex with an ex or with friends is not something unusual among my queer friends like it is among my straight friends. I think sex between two women is so misunderstood/poorly represented in mass media and one way of gaining better understanding and validation is by talking about it with friends. I have a handful of straight guy friends that I talk to about sex because we have sex with women in common, and it's not a "sexy" conversation or bragging about conquests, it's a way for me to process my experiences. Talking with my exes about sex is also a way of processing and validating my experiences because I don't get that from many other places. Additionally, queer women are known (like, through research into our relationships) for keeping our exes as significant parts of our lives in ways that might scream "lack of boundaries!" to heterosexual people. (This paints all queer people with a broad brush but I think it's useful here.)
But most people aren't ok with having their partner discuss their sex life with someone who was or is sexual competition (i.e. someone you want to, or have had, sex with.)
The OP has stated here and to her girlfriend that she is no longer interested in sleeping with men. He's not sexual competition. I don't think the intent behind this comment was to doubt that, but it does come across here that the girlfriend doubts that. The OP also states this is an issue with her girlfriend because she's confiding in a man and not a woman. It troubles me if people are failing to see that a man is not sexual competition to a self-defined lesbian, whether the OP slept with him once or not.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 9:30 AM on January 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
But most people aren't ok with having their partner discuss their sex life with someone who was or is sexual competition (i.e. someone you want to, or have had, sex with.)
The OP has stated here and to her girlfriend that she is no longer interested in sleeping with men. He's not sexual competition. I don't think the intent behind this comment was to doubt that, but it does come across here that the girlfriend doubts that. The OP also states this is an issue with her girlfriend because she's confiding in a man and not a woman. It troubles me if people are failing to see that a man is not sexual competition to a self-defined lesbian, whether the OP slept with him once or not.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 9:30 AM on January 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
If you are on a break, I would presume that there are issues other than this. If that's the case, this may be an indicator as to some of the other problems, but doubtful that this is as big an issue as general incompatibility.
If you broke up because of this issue – which is not what has been presented here – than you have a deal-breaker, and it becomes quite simple at that point. If you are friends with this person, then you will have to let go of the relationship. If you value the relationship, than you may well have to let go of the friendship. It may not make rational sense, however, if you are prioritising your friends over your partner, you are correct that does not bode well for the future of the relationship.
My own sense of reading your words above is that you are unsure of two things. The first is that your curiosity has concluded, and the second is that the relationship with this woman is something that you value and treasure. I pick up a sense that you are sitting in the middle in both aspects. You don't want to move into another gay relationship, but at the same time, you are not sure about the straight relationship. The result is that you are between two poles, and have two proxies. One that you align with sexual connections with men, and the other with women. That you are neither in nor out of both of those friendships/relationships seems to indicate that you don't recognise a strong pull toward either of those people / in either of those directions.
Think you need to do some soul-searching about what you really want here.
posted by nickrussell at 9:53 AM on January 24, 2016
If you broke up because of this issue – which is not what has been presented here – than you have a deal-breaker, and it becomes quite simple at that point. If you are friends with this person, then you will have to let go of the relationship. If you value the relationship, than you may well have to let go of the friendship. It may not make rational sense, however, if you are prioritising your friends over your partner, you are correct that does not bode well for the future of the relationship.
My own sense of reading your words above is that you are unsure of two things. The first is that your curiosity has concluded, and the second is that the relationship with this woman is something that you value and treasure. I pick up a sense that you are sitting in the middle in both aspects. You don't want to move into another gay relationship, but at the same time, you are not sure about the straight relationship. The result is that you are between two poles, and have two proxies. One that you align with sexual connections with men, and the other with women. That you are neither in nor out of both of those friendships/relationships seems to indicate that you don't recognise a strong pull toward either of those people / in either of those directions.
Think you need to do some soul-searching about what you really want here.
posted by nickrussell at 9:53 AM on January 24, 2016
Discussing your sex life with other queer women is absolutely a norm , yes, but I would be concerned personally that instead of the bonding experience/information sharing between queer women the discussion of lesbian sex with a straight man is serving to titulate him, and, as that sexual openness is not the norm in heterosexual mixed gender relationships unless there is an element of sexual attraction between the mixed gender friends it may be giving him the message the OP is still interested in him by serving his sexual needs by providing masterbation material.
posted by saucysault at 10:12 AM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 10:12 AM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Saucysault, she's said he's queer too. He is not a straight man. No people in the question are heterosexual.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:59 AM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bile and syntax at 10:59 AM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
The only information we have is that he friend has not acted inappropriately thus far. Assuming he could be using her as masturbation material is a reach.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 11:10 AM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 11:10 AM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Queer woman here. A lot of great comments have already been made above. Here's my take: What jumps out to me the most in your post is your disregard for your partner's perspective. "As far as I'm concerned" is a phrase you used twice. While it's great that you're clear on how you feel, you are (or were) are in a committed relationship -- so it's not actually just about what you feel and what you think -- it's also about how your partner feels and what she thinks.
Which isn't to say that must agree with her perspective -- but you need to at least make a good faith effort to understand her feelings and grant some validity to her concerns.
There are actually a number of interrelated issues going on here:
1) Your partner's concerns about your sexuality. You say you're "totally gay" yet you can't rule out desiring sex with a man again.
2) Your partner's insecurity about the fact that you are still in a sexual relationship with a man that you had sex with and who might have a crush on you -- (let's be clear -- talking about the intimidate details of your sex life regularly with someone who is not your partner or your therapist is a sexual relationship).
3) The fact that you not only talk about sex generally with this guy but you also talk regularly about her sex life (with you) with a guy she neither knows nor trusts.
Let's go through these issues one by one.
#1: Partner's concerns about your sexuality
I'm not going to define your sexuality for you. However, in my world, the phrase "basically totally gay" does not mean "I might sleep with a guy again - I don't really know, anything can happen.". To me, that sounds more like "queer" or "basically lesbian with bicurious possibilities". Again, I am not defining your sexuality for you -- I'm simply telling you how this queer woman would interpret what you're saying. In a dating context, your sexuality would be fine because I don't need to date a Grade A Lesbian. I'm queer and I like queer women with a fluid understanding of sexuality. My girlfriend is not threatened by the fact that I dated men in the past -- even though she has been left by women who ended up with men multiple times. We are both okay with each other's sexuality.
I say all of this because the bottom line is: you need a partner who is okay with your sexuality as you understand (and as they interpret it) it right now. Your partner (or ex partner?) might need to only date women with really rigidly defined, Grade A Lesbian bonafides. That's for her to decide -- but on this issue, I suspect that her discomfort with your sexual past is probably a compatibility issue that you're not going to be able to overcome. Neither one of you is right or wrong, it's simply a matter of understanding what you both want and need in a partner.
2) Your on-going sexual texting relationship with the guy you slept with
Nope, nope, nope. This would not be okay with me in the context of a monogamous relationship. If you had a sexual relationship with someone, but the friendship was now 100% platonic, that's one thing.. but the friendship isn't platonic if he might have a crush on you. The potential crush is not "irrelevant" -- it defines the context of your relationship, even if you have no sexual interest in him now and would never sleep with him again. A relationship is not just about how you feel - it's also about how the other person feels. It seems that you disregard this basic fact both in your friendship with this guy and your relationship to your girlfriend.
3) Sharing details of your sex life on a regular basis with someone else
Another nope here. This would not be okay with me no matter the friend's gender and regardless of whether you ever slept together. I can see occasionally talking about sex with a friend that you know and trust. But continually sharing the intimate details of your sex life with this dude? Nope. And if I found out about this and you kind of pretended that this was my issue and that this was totally fine? NOPE. Violation of trust -- and lack of maturity, in my opinion. Also: Too much drama. If we were dating, I'd break up with you .. not so much for the sex-texting, but for the callous disregard of my 100% legitimate concerns.
To be clear: This would not be okay with me even if you didn't sleep with the friend, and even if this was another woman. When you add in the sexual history .. nope. It's not that friendship with someone you slept with is always in appropriate -- it's that this kind of "friendship" is inappropriate, even if you never slept together.
I like having this friend, as it's unusual for me to be open about sex with anyone besides my partner, and I think it's a healthy thing to have in my life.
Is it really "healthy" to have this in your life if it is causing a ruckus in your relationship?
One thing you need to realize is that in a committed relationship your sex life doesn't only belong to you -- it also belongs to your partner. It's not cool for you to regularly blab about your shared sex life without your partner's consent. If you want to date someone who is okay with you talking about your sex life this way with friends, then you need to make it clear from the get go. Also consider alternatives: If you think it's healthy (or needful) for you to talk about the details of your sex life on a regular basis, maybe you can do this in therapy.
To recap: Of course, in principle, it is "OK to be friends with someone you slept with in the past". But everything hinges on: 1) the nature of the friendship - which includes how all parties feel 2) the values and commitments of those involved and 3) how the friendship impacts other relationships in your life.
posted by Gray Skies at 11:29 AM on January 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Which isn't to say that must agree with her perspective -- but you need to at least make a good faith effort to understand her feelings and grant some validity to her concerns.
There are actually a number of interrelated issues going on here:
1) Your partner's concerns about your sexuality. You say you're "totally gay" yet you can't rule out desiring sex with a man again.
2) Your partner's insecurity about the fact that you are still in a sexual relationship with a man that you had sex with and who might have a crush on you -- (let's be clear -- talking about the intimidate details of your sex life regularly with someone who is not your partner or your therapist is a sexual relationship).
3) The fact that you not only talk about sex generally with this guy but you also talk regularly about her sex life (with you) with a guy she neither knows nor trusts.
Let's go through these issues one by one.
#1: Partner's concerns about your sexuality
I'm not going to define your sexuality for you. However, in my world, the phrase "basically totally gay" does not mean "I might sleep with a guy again - I don't really know, anything can happen.". To me, that sounds more like "queer" or "basically lesbian with bicurious possibilities". Again, I am not defining your sexuality for you -- I'm simply telling you how this queer woman would interpret what you're saying. In a dating context, your sexuality would be fine because I don't need to date a Grade A Lesbian. I'm queer and I like queer women with a fluid understanding of sexuality. My girlfriend is not threatened by the fact that I dated men in the past -- even though she has been left by women who ended up with men multiple times. We are both okay with each other's sexuality.
I say all of this because the bottom line is: you need a partner who is okay with your sexuality as you understand (and as they interpret it) it right now. Your partner (or ex partner?) might need to only date women with really rigidly defined, Grade A Lesbian bonafides. That's for her to decide -- but on this issue, I suspect that her discomfort with your sexual past is probably a compatibility issue that you're not going to be able to overcome. Neither one of you is right or wrong, it's simply a matter of understanding what you both want and need in a partner.
2) Your on-going sexual texting relationship with the guy you slept with
Nope, nope, nope. This would not be okay with me in the context of a monogamous relationship. If you had a sexual relationship with someone, but the friendship was now 100% platonic, that's one thing.. but the friendship isn't platonic if he might have a crush on you. The potential crush is not "irrelevant" -- it defines the context of your relationship, even if you have no sexual interest in him now and would never sleep with him again. A relationship is not just about how you feel - it's also about how the other person feels. It seems that you disregard this basic fact both in your friendship with this guy and your relationship to your girlfriend.
3) Sharing details of your sex life on a regular basis with someone else
Another nope here. This would not be okay with me no matter the friend's gender and regardless of whether you ever slept together. I can see occasionally talking about sex with a friend that you know and trust. But continually sharing the intimate details of your sex life with this dude? Nope. And if I found out about this and you kind of pretended that this was my issue and that this was totally fine? NOPE. Violation of trust -- and lack of maturity, in my opinion. Also: Too much drama. If we were dating, I'd break up with you .. not so much for the sex-texting, but for the callous disregard of my 100% legitimate concerns.
To be clear: This would not be okay with me even if you didn't sleep with the friend, and even if this was another woman. When you add in the sexual history .. nope. It's not that friendship with someone you slept with is always in appropriate -- it's that this kind of "friendship" is inappropriate, even if you never slept together.
I like having this friend, as it's unusual for me to be open about sex with anyone besides my partner, and I think it's a healthy thing to have in my life.
Is it really "healthy" to have this in your life if it is causing a ruckus in your relationship?
One thing you need to realize is that in a committed relationship your sex life doesn't only belong to you -- it also belongs to your partner. It's not cool for you to regularly blab about your shared sex life without your partner's consent. If you want to date someone who is okay with you talking about your sex life this way with friends, then you need to make it clear from the get go. Also consider alternatives: If you think it's healthy (or needful) for you to talk about the details of your sex life on a regular basis, maybe you can do this in therapy.
To recap: Of course, in principle, it is "OK to be friends with someone you slept with in the past". But everything hinges on: 1) the nature of the friendship - which includes how all parties feel 2) the values and commitments of those involved and 3) how the friendship impacts other relationships in your life.
posted by Gray Skies at 11:29 AM on January 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Nthing the perspective that talking about your sex life with good friends and even with exes (if they are also good friends) seems totally normal, and indeed important (how else do we process, learn, make meaning?), and nthing that I see that differing perspectives on this hew pretty closely to het/queer lines.
Certainly yes there is still a trust element here: the fact that you only text with him is a bit odd, as there's to be no opportunity for all three of you to meet up IRL, for your partner and him to learn about each other, to build their own trusting relationship of the sort that helps build trust between your partner and you. So I think in general you may need to do more work in relationships to build the trust around your connection with this guy.
posted by wemayfreeze at 1:21 PM on January 24, 2016
Certainly yes there is still a trust element here: the fact that you only text with him is a bit odd, as there's to be no opportunity for all three of you to meet up IRL, for your partner and him to learn about each other, to build their own trusting relationship of the sort that helps build trust between your partner and you. So I think in general you may need to do more work in relationships to build the trust around your connection with this guy.
posted by wemayfreeze at 1:21 PM on January 24, 2016
Response by poster: Thanks all. I got what I wanted which was a variety of opinions. Thanks to asking this question I was able to take my head out my ass and take my gf's discomfort as legitimate. I've made the decision to scale back my friendship with the guy and have initiated discussion with my gf to figure out what we're both comfortable with sharing about our relationship with other people. While I was asking metafilter she was doing thinking of her own and texted me to say she realises she can't hold my past against me and her issue with my guy friend is more to do with her own baggage than anything he or I have done. So it turns out we're both down to compromise and admit our stances aren't inviolably right, we're back on track, win win.
posted by mymbleth at 2:41 PM on January 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by mymbleth at 2:41 PM on January 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
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That said, you can decide that your girlfriend's behavior is too controlling for your tastes, and use that as sign that maybe you two are less compatible than you'd thought. But again, you can't control what your girlfriend thinks about all of this. You can (and should!) talk to her and try to better understand and address her concerns, but ultimately I feel like it is unlikely you'll change her mind.
posted by Aleyn at 3:06 PM on January 23, 2016 [16 favorites]