What makes electrical panel double taps so expensive to fix?
September 24, 2015 11:18 AM Subscribe
I have a "double tap" in my electrical panel. This seems easy to fix (even the most complicated fix simply involves adding a new breaker to the breaker box).
But this task is supposed to only be performed by an electrician. I was quoted $265 for this fix by an electrician (Seattle, USA). Is this charge reasonable, or am I missing something here?
That pigtail repair is crazy.
I would consider $265 reasonable to properly fix the issue.
posted by LoveHam at 11:46 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I would consider $265 reasonable to properly fix the issue.
posted by LoveHam at 11:46 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's a totally reasonable price for a professional call.
Do you have room in the panel for a new breaker? You can add a breaker yourself in Washington State. There's no code against it, that I'm aware of. I wouldn't hesitate to do this myself. Of course I do so with the full awareness that the task could kill me if I'm not careful or don't do it correctly.
posted by humboldt32 at 11:46 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Do you have room in the panel for a new breaker? You can add a breaker yourself in Washington State. There's no code against it, that I'm aware of. I wouldn't hesitate to do this myself. Of course I do so with the full awareness that the task could kill me if I'm not careful or don't do it correctly.
posted by humboldt32 at 11:46 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
That honestly seems totally reasonable, even cheap.
posted by mollymayhem at 12:10 PM on September 24, 2015
posted by mollymayhem at 12:10 PM on September 24, 2015
I had a whole room wired with new wiring, outlets and recessed lighting (not including the fixtures), from a licensed electrician (single person business) and it cost me a little over $400 for labor and material including 2 visits and the final inspection with the electrical inspector.
I had also gotten an estimate for over $1200 for the same work from another licensed electrician who owned a bigger business with 30 trucks and other electricians working for him.
So, all this to say that you should get another estimate. To me, a non-licensed non-electrician, $265 to fix a wiring issue like that seems on the higher side but it really depends on the electrician.
Did the quote include more words than "fix double tap"?
I found my electrician through thumbtack.com but ymmv.
posted by eatcake at 12:58 PM on September 24, 2015
I had also gotten an estimate for over $1200 for the same work from another licensed electrician who owned a bigger business with 30 trucks and other electricians working for him.
So, all this to say that you should get another estimate. To me, a non-licensed non-electrician, $265 to fix a wiring issue like that seems on the higher side but it really depends on the electrician.
Did the quote include more words than "fix double tap"?
I found my electrician through thumbtack.com but ymmv.
posted by eatcake at 12:58 PM on September 24, 2015
Nothing wrong with a pigtail splice in a breaker panel as long as the circuit is not overloaded. The reason for not double tapping a lug is that there is no way to ensure that both wires have and will maintain equal pressure from the lug over time. A pigtail is better than double tapping a lug not designed for two wires. There are frequently pigtail splices throughout circuits in various utility boxes in a house.
Splices in the panel are frowned upon because they can increase clutter and may suggest cutting corners for an installation, but they are neither unsafe nor illegal in the U.S. code. But better to add a breaker if you have room.
posted by JackFlash at 1:19 PM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Splices in the panel are frowned upon because they can increase clutter and may suggest cutting corners for an installation, but they are neither unsafe nor illegal in the U.S. code. But better to add a breaker if you have room.
posted by JackFlash at 1:19 PM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Do you have spare spaces in your panel? What kind of panel do you have?
Nothing wrong with a splice in a panel as long as the total load isn't higher than allowed (or one of the circuits isn't serving something that is required to be own its own). Some electricians are going to refuse simply making a splice because even though it is legal a lot of people think it isn't and it could end up with undeserved bad word of mouth in the future. I kind of lean that way. Even in a panel with no breaker space you can usually squeese in a tandem/piggyback breaker to allow you to land both wires on a breaker and they really aren't all that much.
$265 seems a little high to me for a job that will take less than 30 minutes but that is going to depend on the local call out rate and what their minimum charge is. Someone else was asking about electrical work pricing in Seattle recently and prices seemed kind of high that time too so that might just be the going rate.
If one or both of the double taps are serving an area that requires ArcFault or GFCI (or both) the cost of the breaker would drive the price up a lot. Even if those things weren't required when your house was built repairs need to be brought up to code.
One of the things to be aware of is double taps are _rarely_ ever something that is done during an initial install. So the electrician could show up and find a raft of other less obvious problems created by a "handyman".
posted by Mitheral at 1:53 PM on September 24, 2015
Nothing wrong with a splice in a panel as long as the total load isn't higher than allowed (or one of the circuits isn't serving something that is required to be own its own). Some electricians are going to refuse simply making a splice because even though it is legal a lot of people think it isn't and it could end up with undeserved bad word of mouth in the future. I kind of lean that way. Even in a panel with no breaker space you can usually squeese in a tandem/piggyback breaker to allow you to land both wires on a breaker and they really aren't all that much.
$265 seems a little high to me for a job that will take less than 30 minutes but that is going to depend on the local call out rate and what their minimum charge is. Someone else was asking about electrical work pricing in Seattle recently and prices seemed kind of high that time too so that might just be the going rate.
If one or both of the double taps are serving an area that requires ArcFault or GFCI (or both) the cost of the breaker would drive the price up a lot. Even if those things weren't required when your house was built repairs need to be brought up to code.
One of the things to be aware of is double taps are _rarely_ ever something that is done during an initial install. So the electrician could show up and find a raft of other less obvious problems created by a "handyman".
posted by Mitheral at 1:53 PM on September 24, 2015
There was a problem at a factory and no one there could figure out what to do. So they called in an expert. He walked into the control room, pushed a button, and the problem was fixed.
"That will be $1000." Which struck the company as a bit steep. "Could you itemize that? That seems a lot just to push a button."
And you're also paying for the time he spends sitting in his office waiting for calls to come in. And his rent, and his telephone bill, and...
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 6:33 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
"That will be $1000." Which struck the company as a bit steep. "Could you itemize that? That seems a lot just to push a button."
$5 to push a buttonYou are not only paying for the Electrician's time, you're paying for his truck and all his tools and all the years he spent learning how to be an Electrician and getting a license.
$995 to know which button to push.
And you're also paying for the time he spends sitting in his office waiting for calls to come in. And his rent, and his telephone bill, and...
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 6:33 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you are inside the city limits of Seattle or any of the cities that directly touch it, this is completely reasonable for this market. Here's a likely breakdown of costs:
Trip charge (2 @ $40): $80
Replacement 20A Square D Homelite breaker: $4.93
Breaker sales tax: $0.47
City of Seattle electrical permit (1 circuit, 20A, no service change needed): $88.73
Total:: $364.13
You may be getting a break on the trip charge—some folks don't charge it—or the electrician is estimating fewer hours than I am (possibly at a lower cost). If your electrician is not pulling a permit, do not hire that electrician. You do not know what other corners might be getting skipped and permits are not just for you; they are also for the person who comes after you and for your insurance company if the worst does happen.
Also, as to this:
humboldt32: "Do you have room in the panel for a new breaker? You can add a breaker yourself in Washington State. There's no code against it, that I'm aware of."
If you own and live in the place where the work is to be done (meaning you cannot do this at a rental you lease, nor can you ask a friend who is "good with wires" to come help), at least inside Seattle and most other jurisdictions in King County, you can pull your own permit, do the work yourself, and call for the inspection from the city. I did when I added the 40A 2-pole 240V circuit for an EV charger.
posted by fireoyster at 7:57 PM on September 24, 2015
- Labor hours (2 @ $95): $190
- 1st labor hour + 15 minutes: verification/installation/testing
- Remaining time: City inspection on second day
You may be getting a break on the trip charge—some folks don't charge it—or the electrician is estimating fewer hours than I am (possibly at a lower cost). If your electrician is not pulling a permit, do not hire that electrician. You do not know what other corners might be getting skipped and permits are not just for you; they are also for the person who comes after you and for your insurance company if the worst does happen.
Also, as to this:
humboldt32: "Do you have room in the panel for a new breaker? You can add a breaker yourself in Washington State. There's no code against it, that I'm aware of."
If you own and live in the place where the work is to be done (meaning you cannot do this at a rental you lease, nor can you ask a friend who is "good with wires" to come help), at least inside Seattle and most other jurisdictions in King County, you can pull your own permit, do the work yourself, and call for the inspection from the city. I did when I added the 40A 2-pole 240V circuit for an EV charger.
posted by fireoyster at 7:57 PM on September 24, 2015
The price is totally fair. A fair chunk of it is likely, as others have pointed out, the permit. Estimate about $100/hr for labor, about $80-$90 for the permit, $50 trip fee, and parts, and you're there.
posted by xedrik at 8:16 PM on September 24, 2015
posted by xedrik at 8:16 PM on September 24, 2015
Response by poster: To be clear, this is a line item in an estimate for multiple unrelated electrical fixes (the total of which is about $4000). So it is not by itself giving rise to a new visit nor a new permit.
The (to me, apparently) inflated nature of this line item is leading me to question the entire quote.
And yes, it's a single breaker that is double-tapped, not the entire panel.
Hope that makes things clearer.
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:58 PM on September 26, 2015
The (to me, apparently) inflated nature of this line item is leading me to question the entire quote.
And yes, it's a single breaker that is double-tapped, not the entire panel.
Hope that makes things clearer.
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:58 PM on September 26, 2015
As an add on item addressing only that issue part of thousands of dollars of other work the price is completely ridiculous. This is at most 30 minutes work if one is already there.
posted by Mitheral at 4:03 PM on September 26, 2015
posted by Mitheral at 4:03 PM on September 26, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
if it's a whole panel, there's no way in hell you should try to do that yourself. if it's just a breaker, you're right - it's really not that hard to do yourself. throw the main breaker to turn off power to the panel, throw the offending breaker to be doubly sure you don't electrocute yourself, disconnect one set of wires from the breaker and connect them to a new (or existing and empty) breaker.
$265 sounds reasonable to me; that's an hour or two of labor and testing, and potentially a few bucks' worth of parts, done by someone who I'm assuming is licensed, bonded, and insured.
posted by xbonesgt at 11:31 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]