pondering job offer in Austria
July 31, 2015 2:49 PM Subscribe
I am contemplating a move to Vienna, Austria from the US. I have a job offer in Vienna and I am considering a move there from the West Coast of the US. Please advise me!
I've been applying to some jobs in software across Europe and now I have an offer from a small company in Austria. I'm trying to make a decision about whether I should just accept it or if I should try to prolong the process so that I can finish interviewing with a few other companies in Berlin and London (one of these has a much higher proportion of women, including a lead developer who I think could be a good mentor, so that's something I'm thinking about as well). I'm not sure how long this company would be willing to wait for me, however!
I'd thus like to get some advice from those of you who have made a move to Vienna as an American. What did you think of living in the city? Is it welcoming to someone who wants to try to learn German but will be starting from nothing? (I do enjoy learning languages!) I'm also not white (Asian-American here) - would this be an issue at all? I hear the occasional tidbits about racism in Austria, but I suppose most cities I go in Europe will be in stark contrast to my (very diverse) hometown in the US. How hard is it going to be to meet people and make friends (especially in the beginning with my lack of German)? What would be the best venues to meet other younger people in their twenties?
The salary comes out to about 60k USD (before tax, so probably half that after tax), which is slightly more than half of what I currently earn. I did anticipate this salary drop as the cost of living should be lower (and in general salaries in Europe are lower for software work), but can any of you with experience tell me if it's a good salary for living in Vienna and still saving some?
I'm also approaching this from the mindset of trying it out for maybe a year or two while I am still young and obligations-free. I'm hoping that finding a job Stateside won't be a problem if I ever decide to move back home... Anyways, I don't want just jump in without doing any research, since this is a big move, hence the questions.
I've been applying to some jobs in software across Europe and now I have an offer from a small company in Austria. I'm trying to make a decision about whether I should just accept it or if I should try to prolong the process so that I can finish interviewing with a few other companies in Berlin and London (one of these has a much higher proportion of women, including a lead developer who I think could be a good mentor, so that's something I'm thinking about as well). I'm not sure how long this company would be willing to wait for me, however!
I'd thus like to get some advice from those of you who have made a move to Vienna as an American. What did you think of living in the city? Is it welcoming to someone who wants to try to learn German but will be starting from nothing? (I do enjoy learning languages!) I'm also not white (Asian-American here) - would this be an issue at all? I hear the occasional tidbits about racism in Austria, but I suppose most cities I go in Europe will be in stark contrast to my (very diverse) hometown in the US. How hard is it going to be to meet people and make friends (especially in the beginning with my lack of German)? What would be the best venues to meet other younger people in their twenties?
The salary comes out to about 60k USD (before tax, so probably half that after tax), which is slightly more than half of what I currently earn. I did anticipate this salary drop as the cost of living should be lower (and in general salaries in Europe are lower for software work), but can any of you with experience tell me if it's a good salary for living in Vienna and still saving some?
I'm also approaching this from the mindset of trying it out for maybe a year or two while I am still young and obligations-free. I'm hoping that finding a job Stateside won't be a problem if I ever decide to move back home... Anyways, I don't want just jump in without doing any research, since this is a big move, hence the questions.
Best answer: Austrian living in Vienna here, here's my biased view on few things (as I can't assume a foreigner's perspective):
Is it welcoming to someone who wants to try to learn German but will be starting from nothing?
Vienna isn't the best city to learn German: About 50% of its inhabitants have a migratory background and won't speak the language to perfection, a considerable portion of the other half will challenge you with a thick Bavarian dialect [Mostly elderly people, though. Viennese people in their teens and twenties are talking closer to standard German than pure dialect. There are some words and phrases every now and then that you might not come across on German-learning platforms/apps but you will pick it up!]. Accordnig to some friends whose native language isn't German, this can be frustrating at first.
However, in day to day situations you will get by with English. But as gemutlichkeit said, you're better off talking to younger peeps.
I hear the occasional tidbits about racism in Austria, but I suppose most cities I go in Europe will be in stark contrast to my (very diverse) hometown in the US.
Racism can't be denied, although (racist) Austrians differentiate between "bad foreigners" (racism is mostly directed against Turkish people and sometimes Eastern European folks) and "good foreigners" (everyone else). As an Asian-American you won't be the target of much xenophobia. (I hope!)
Throughout the ages Vienna has always been (and still is) a multicultural city, though. It will still feel less so, as our brand of diversity sometimes can't be seen. (With most people you can't tell whether they are Austrian or from some other corner of Europe.)
How hard is it going to be to meet people and make friends (especially in the beginning with my lack of German)?
To add to gemutlichkeits' points: there are numerous activities for students (but open for all), whether it be sports, language courses or get-togethers/parties - if you're not too shy you can certainly strike up a conversation here and there. The Sprachencafé is also supposed to be good to meet people and converse in German (and other languages) but I've never been there personally.
Cost of living wise I get by with 600-700 Euros a month, but it's a shared apartment. Renting a flat in Vienna has gotten more expensive over the last years (and decades) and, depending where you choose to live, 1000 Euros a month is a reasonable upper-bound. Groceries, restaurants, public transportation, culture and all that should be slightly cheaper than in the US. (Depending on your hometown. But hey, tips are only 10% in Austria and public transportation will cost you as little as 1 Euro a day. :))
Having said all that, you should be able to get by with your salary and also save some.
Last but not least: if you decide to try out Vienna and have further questions or wanna hang out with a (somewhat) local person once you're here - message me! :)
posted by bigendian at 5:16 PM on July 31, 2015
Is it welcoming to someone who wants to try to learn German but will be starting from nothing?
Vienna isn't the best city to learn German: About 50% of its inhabitants have a migratory background and won't speak the language to perfection, a considerable portion of the other half will challenge you with a thick Bavarian dialect [Mostly elderly people, though. Viennese people in their teens and twenties are talking closer to standard German than pure dialect. There are some words and phrases every now and then that you might not come across on German-learning platforms/apps but you will pick it up!]. Accordnig to some friends whose native language isn't German, this can be frustrating at first.
However, in day to day situations you will get by with English. But as gemutlichkeit said, you're better off talking to younger peeps.
I hear the occasional tidbits about racism in Austria, but I suppose most cities I go in Europe will be in stark contrast to my (very diverse) hometown in the US.
Racism can't be denied, although (racist) Austrians differentiate between "bad foreigners" (racism is mostly directed against Turkish people and sometimes Eastern European folks) and "good foreigners" (everyone else). As an Asian-American you won't be the target of much xenophobia. (I hope!)
Throughout the ages Vienna has always been (and still is) a multicultural city, though. It will still feel less so, as our brand of diversity sometimes can't be seen. (With most people you can't tell whether they are Austrian or from some other corner of Europe.)
How hard is it going to be to meet people and make friends (especially in the beginning with my lack of German)?
To add to gemutlichkeits' points: there are numerous activities for students (but open for all), whether it be sports, language courses or get-togethers/parties - if you're not too shy you can certainly strike up a conversation here and there. The Sprachencafé is also supposed to be good to meet people and converse in German (and other languages) but I've never been there personally.
Cost of living wise I get by with 600-700 Euros a month, but it's a shared apartment. Renting a flat in Vienna has gotten more expensive over the last years (and decades) and, depending where you choose to live, 1000 Euros a month is a reasonable upper-bound. Groceries, restaurants, public transportation, culture and all that should be slightly cheaper than in the US. (Depending on your hometown. But hey, tips are only 10% in Austria and public transportation will cost you as little as 1 Euro a day. :))
Having said all that, you should be able to get by with your salary and also save some.
Last but not least: if you decide to try out Vienna and have further questions or wanna hang out with a (somewhat) local person once you're here - message me! :)
posted by bigendian at 5:16 PM on July 31, 2015
So, I'm a (white) American who is fluent in German and who has lived and traveled extensively throughout Europe. I think you'd be happy in any of those places so perhaps I'd go with the place that seems to have the best job offer; as you know, being happy at work helps make everything else better.
I have only visited Vienna as a tourist but I LOVED it and could see myself very happily living there. As gemutlichkeit and bigendian have said, the quality of life is excellent. I found people so helpful and nice, and had a few spontaneous conversations with strangers (in German but still!) Vienna has a very different feel from all the German cities I've visited; it's hard to describe, maybe I'd say it's more chill, like more oriented to southern Europe than northern Europe? Or just that it's really got its own flavor and has an interesting history and mix of cultures.
I loved the UK but London wouldn't be my first choice; however, it's the dream city of many folks and maybe it'd be yours, too! I lived in Berlin for a year in addition to some other German cities; I was glad to live there but am kind of over the hype. Still, I'd totally recommend it to others! At that time, it was cheaper than many other cosmopolitan cities around the world but it's getting more expensive every year. It's a giant city in terms of landmass, has many different neighborhoods with different feels to choose from; it'd be a good place to learn German but, being so international, English is the go-to language for many people.
All three places are major cities so overall you'd probably feel safe, although there are parts that are less welcoming (like Marzahn in Berlin.) The vibe will be very different from in California, of course; FWIW, Asian and Asian-American friends who have lived in and/or traveled through western Europe have all said that they've really enjoyed themselves. Even as a white foreigner who can often "pass," there have been a few times where I have felt discriminated against as a foreigner, mostly microaggressions. Unfortunately, that's par for the course of being a foreigner, including in the US, of course. (Grr to D. Trump and others!)
Could you visit these places before accepting a job? It'd be the ideal! And, regardless, once you're in Europe, it's quite easy to travel around and visit other countries. I'm really excited for you and wish you luck with your decision!
posted by smorgasbord at 5:35 PM on July 31, 2015
I have only visited Vienna as a tourist but I LOVED it and could see myself very happily living there. As gemutlichkeit and bigendian have said, the quality of life is excellent. I found people so helpful and nice, and had a few spontaneous conversations with strangers (in German but still!) Vienna has a very different feel from all the German cities I've visited; it's hard to describe, maybe I'd say it's more chill, like more oriented to southern Europe than northern Europe? Or just that it's really got its own flavor and has an interesting history and mix of cultures.
I loved the UK but London wouldn't be my first choice; however, it's the dream city of many folks and maybe it'd be yours, too! I lived in Berlin for a year in addition to some other German cities; I was glad to live there but am kind of over the hype. Still, I'd totally recommend it to others! At that time, it was cheaper than many other cosmopolitan cities around the world but it's getting more expensive every year. It's a giant city in terms of landmass, has many different neighborhoods with different feels to choose from; it'd be a good place to learn German but, being so international, English is the go-to language for many people.
All three places are major cities so overall you'd probably feel safe, although there are parts that are less welcoming (like Marzahn in Berlin.) The vibe will be very different from in California, of course; FWIW, Asian and Asian-American friends who have lived in and/or traveled through western Europe have all said that they've really enjoyed themselves. Even as a white foreigner who can often "pass," there have been a few times where I have felt discriminated against as a foreigner, mostly microaggressions. Unfortunately, that's par for the course of being a foreigner, including in the US, of course. (Grr to D. Trump and others!)
Could you visit these places before accepting a job? It'd be the ideal! And, regardless, once you're in Europe, it's quite easy to travel around and visit other countries. I'm really excited for you and wish you luck with your decision!
posted by smorgasbord at 5:35 PM on July 31, 2015
I did a quarter abroad in Vienna in college, studying German at a language school. I cherish the memory of those three months. Vienna is a wonderful place to be young. The language school was called IKI, but that was fifteen years ago so no idea if they're still around.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:40 PM on July 31, 2015
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:40 PM on July 31, 2015
Can you clarify your preferred spending lifestyle? I like to buy a few new tops a month (h and m, forever 21) eat lunch and dinner out a couple nights a week, buy as I please from the grocery store, buy whatever other things I fancy (makeup, shampoo, stuff for around he house) and I spend about 1000 euro a month apart from other expenses like bills, transport, holidays, and rent... So that's a data point for you. I'm not a big spender but 800 euro (like above poster) would be a little tight for me.
posted by pairofshades at 12:59 AM on August 1, 2015
posted by pairofshades at 12:59 AM on August 1, 2015
Viennese here. I cannot tell you what it is like for an expat but what I would like to say is be sure to calculate your expenses living in Vienna realistically. I have been working with all types of expats the last 30 years and the worst in my opinion is if people are unpleasantly surprised by how expensive living in Vienna really is, and how much they end up spening renting (and furnishing etc).
Vienna is one of the more expensice places to live in Europe, especially when it comes to housing.
In 2015, 800 Euros will not get you anywhere, unless you live a student lifestyle of subletting a very basic furnished room far from the center and fancy living off margarine, jam and bread from the super market.
In a nice area a nice sublet single room will easily cost you around 450 euro per month, possible more.
An unfurnished apartment (one room, bathroom, kitchen) in a good area on average costs 650 to 800 Euros per month (cold, unfurnished), more realistically if you do not get help in searching from our prospective employer you might end up with paying around 850 to 1000 Euro per month cold for a one room place. My husband and I pay 1000 Euro cold for an unfurnished apartment with three bedrooms in a nice area and consider it a very good deal.
Furnished appartments go easily for twice the price, especially if you only rent short term (less than a year).
As pairofshades points out, if you like to go shop, and like to go out, and buy groceries as you please you can easily spend a 1000 Euros on top of that.
So 30k per year may work but you will need to pay substantial deposits (usually 3 times the rent) plus 3 times the rent to the real estate agency (renting without is rare), plus buying furniture. I have seen people on a bigger salary struggle with these expenses on top of the international move, unless of course your employer pays the moving expenses.
posted by 15L06 at 3:20 PM on August 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Vienna is one of the more expensice places to live in Europe, especially when it comes to housing.
In 2015, 800 Euros will not get you anywhere, unless you live a student lifestyle of subletting a very basic furnished room far from the center and fancy living off margarine, jam and bread from the super market.
In a nice area a nice sublet single room will easily cost you around 450 euro per month, possible more.
An unfurnished apartment (one room, bathroom, kitchen) in a good area on average costs 650 to 800 Euros per month (cold, unfurnished), more realistically if you do not get help in searching from our prospective employer you might end up with paying around 850 to 1000 Euro per month cold for a one room place. My husband and I pay 1000 Euro cold for an unfurnished apartment with three bedrooms in a nice area and consider it a very good deal.
Furnished appartments go easily for twice the price, especially if you only rent short term (less than a year).
As pairofshades points out, if you like to go shop, and like to go out, and buy groceries as you please you can easily spend a 1000 Euros on top of that.
So 30k per year may work but you will need to pay substantial deposits (usually 3 times the rent) plus 3 times the rent to the real estate agency (renting without is rare), plus buying furniture. I have seen people on a bigger salary struggle with these expenses on top of the international move, unless of course your employer pays the moving expenses.
posted by 15L06 at 3:20 PM on August 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for all the answers everyone! All were very helpful :) And bigendian, if I do end up in Vienna I'll definitely let you know!
Smorgasbord: it would definitely be ideal to visit first! I did have the chance to see both Berlin and London previously, but I've never been to Vienna before...
Pairofshades and 15L06: My spending habits have been fairly thrifty so far. I don't actually buy new clothes that often although I do eat out a few times a week. I will talk to my employer more about relocation and how much they can help in the apartment finding process. Thanks for giving me some perspective!
posted by movicont at 9:15 PM on August 1, 2015
Smorgasbord: it would definitely be ideal to visit first! I did have the chance to see both Berlin and London previously, but I've never been to Vienna before...
Pairofshades and 15L06: My spending habits have been fairly thrifty so far. I don't actually buy new clothes that often although I do eat out a few times a week. I will talk to my employer more about relocation and how much they can help in the apartment finding process. Thanks for giving me some perspective!
posted by movicont at 9:15 PM on August 1, 2015
Also ask them I they'd be willing to give you a loan for the deposit (and the repayment terms for such a loan, ideally you want to pay it back when you leave and get your deposit back, not monthly over six months cause you'll be poor for those six months...) the deposits are painful as up front expense and requirement to sign a tenancy agreement. Also, for a year consider furnished room in a shared flat. Even if you head to idea new furniture is a large up from expense. There is no point shipping most of your stuff unless the employer pays, which they are unlikely to do if they are small and you are a new employee.
posted by koahiatamadl at 10:26 PM on August 1, 2015
posted by koahiatamadl at 10:26 PM on August 1, 2015
I moved from Florida to Vienna in February. Most of these answers have been quite informative... movicont, please check your memail. Regarding German, there are a few institutes here that you can learn German at. Also, check out Internations Vienna, they have a forum for apartments, marketplace, and also organize get-togethers. There are many Meetup groups in vienna for internationals, and whatever your hobbies might be.
posted by ssri at 3:34 AM on August 3, 2015
posted by ssri at 3:34 AM on August 3, 2015
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Most people speak English, especially young people, and this certainly won't be a problem if you are working in software. Like any other city, there are meet-ups for various activities, and people socialize at bars while watching football. I found people welcoming. There are definitely German classes or tutors available, and basic German isn't too difficult if you're starting with English as your primary language.
Overall, Vienna offers a good quality of life-- the pace isn't as hectic as it is in London or Berlin, it's a certainly one of the best places in the world for history, art, and music. The tram system and underground make it easy to get around, even though it's also very walkable, and there are lots of nice outdoor events and concerts in the summer. The surrounding countryside is beautiful, and Prague, Salzburg, and Budapest are easily accessible from Vienna.
Good luck with your decision!
posted by gemutlichkeit at 3:12 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]