Grammar Help! Dealing with "s" with nouns and possesion
June 22, 2015 12:45 PM Subscribe
My friends are are debating the appropriate use of an apostrophe in light of nouns ending in "s". I am many years away from my grammar classes and a bit unsure. Test sentence inside the fold.
From my perspective this sentence is correct:
Lars apartment is conveniently located in the city center.
Others think that I have to use the apostrophe to to indicate possession correctly:
Lars´s apartment is conveniently located in the city center.
Google has been a mixed bag. The top results for nouns indicated possession are flaky, some support dropping the apostrophe and others support it with the additional "s".
Any guidance appreciated!
From my perspective this sentence is correct:
Lars apartment is conveniently located in the city center.
Others think that I have to use the apostrophe to to indicate possession correctly:
Lars´s apartment is conveniently located in the city center.
Google has been a mixed bag. The top results for nouns indicated possession are flaky, some support dropping the apostrophe and others support it with the additional "s".
Any guidance appreciated!
Best answer: If you're talking about the way it's written as opposed to the way it's pronounced, I've never heard of dropping the apostrophe completely. It's either Lars' or Lars's. If you drop the apostrophe then there's no possession indicated at all. "Lars apartment" is just incorrect. Or referring to an apartment named Lars.
If you're talking about the way it's pronounced then I think "Lars's" or "Lars apartment" would be acceptable.
posted by bleep at 12:48 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you're talking about the way it's pronounced then I think "Lars's" or "Lars apartment" would be acceptable.
posted by bleep at 12:48 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yep, there are style differences on this, ie. some people/editors etc. would say it should be written Lars' apartment, others would go for Lars's apartment.
But definitely not Lars apartment, I'm afraid.
posted by penguin pie at 12:54 PM on June 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
But definitely not Lars apartment, I'm afraid.
posted by penguin pie at 12:54 PM on June 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
From the Oxford Dictionaries site:
"With personal names that end in -s: add an apostrophe plus s when you would naturally pronounce an extra s if you said the word out loud ... Note that there are some exceptions to this rule, especially in names of places or organizations ... With personal names that end in -s but are not spoken with an extra s: just add an apostrophe after the -s..." See the page for examples.
As bleep notes, it's not obvious how you would pronounce it ("lars" or "larses"), so writing it as either "Lars'" or "Lars's" would be acceptable.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:54 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
"With personal names that end in -s: add an apostrophe plus s when you would naturally pronounce an extra s if you said the word out loud ... Note that there are some exceptions to this rule, especially in names of places or organizations ... With personal names that end in -s but are not spoken with an extra s: just add an apostrophe after the -s..." See the page for examples.
As bleep notes, it's not obvious how you would pronounce it ("lars" or "larses"), so writing it as either "Lars'" or "Lars's" would be acceptable.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:54 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
You definitely need an apostrophe. Style guides vary, but nouns that end in S can be rendered as Achilles' heel or Achilles's heel.
For reference.
posted by lydhre at 12:55 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
For reference.
posted by lydhre at 12:55 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
You must have an apostrophe. It can be either Lars' or Lars's, but the apostrophe must be there.
posted by MsMolly at 1:01 PM on June 22, 2015
posted by MsMolly at 1:01 PM on June 22, 2015
I was taught that it's always after the final letter, so in your example that would be Lars'.
My own teachers would not have accepted Lars's -- but I think this is common now. However, you might want to look for examples in the New York Times or something similarly authoritative.
posted by amtho at 1:04 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
My own teachers would not have accepted Lars's -- but I think this is common now. However, you might want to look for examples in the New York Times or something similarly authoritative.
posted by amtho at 1:04 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Meet Thomas' English Muffins, for example:
> http://www.thomasbreads.com/products
posted by amtho at 1:05 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
> http://www.thomasbreads.com/products
posted by amtho at 1:05 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
The IBM style guidance on this was that names that ended in s took an apostrophe and another s ("Lars's home") but that plural nouns ending in s took only an apostrophe ("the Smiths' home").
posted by ubiquity at 1:06 PM on June 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ubiquity at 1:06 PM on June 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I agree with MsMolly, you must have an apostrophe to show possession. If the name is Lars... then i believe it should be Lars's
posted by foodybat at 1:21 PM on June 22, 2015
posted by foodybat at 1:21 PM on June 22, 2015
Best answer: Strunk and White say:
Form the possessive singular of nouns with 's.
Follow this rule whatever the final consonant. Thus write,
Charles's friend
Burns's poems
the witch's malice
Exceptions are the possessives of ancient proper names in -es and -is, the possessive Jesus', and such forms as for conscience' sake, for righteousness' sake. But such forms as Achilles' heel, Moses' laws, Isis' temple are commonly replaced by
the heel of Achilles
the laws of Moses
the temple of Isis
posted by bensherman at 1:21 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Form the possessive singular of nouns with 's.
Follow this rule whatever the final consonant. Thus write,
Charles's friend
Burns's poems
the witch's malice
Exceptions are the possessives of ancient proper names in -es and -is, the possessive Jesus', and such forms as for conscience' sake, for righteousness' sake. But such forms as Achilles' heel, Moses' laws, Isis' temple are commonly replaced by
the heel of Achilles
the laws of Moses
the temple of Isis
posted by bensherman at 1:21 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Presumably you know this better than I do if your profile location is accurate, but many Swedish and Norwegian speakers of my acquaintance use the Scandinavian-style no-apostrophe genitive (e.g. "Leifs apartment") even when they're writing in English, which may be the source of your confusion (and possibly an indication that you can get away with it in your day-to-day writing in any case!).
posted by dorque at 1:29 PM on June 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by dorque at 1:29 PM on June 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Best answer: This is not a grammar question, it is a style question. As others have said, the convention in written English is that a possessive must have an apostrophe; it is not optional. Whether you write another -s after a possessive in -s is optional, and different style guides do it differently. Me, I tend to go with "add an apostrophe plus s when you would naturally pronounce an extra s if you said the word out loud" because it's so easy to apply.
> Strunk and White say
Strunk and White are not in any sense authorities; many people find their simple rules useful for their own writing, but they should not be trotted out to answer questions like this.
posted by languagehat at 2:29 PM on June 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
> Strunk and White say
Strunk and White are not in any sense authorities; many people find their simple rules useful for their own writing, but they should not be trotted out to answer questions like this.
posted by languagehat at 2:29 PM on June 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
It needs to be Lars' apartment or Lars's apartment. I think that which one you choose comes down to regional difference or personal preference. I would personally say it as "Lars-es apartment", so I would probably write it is Lars's.
dorque, the example of Leifs apartment is a bit misleading here, because the name doesn't end in s. I realise you were showing that in some languages the apostrophe is used less, or is not used at all, to show ownership. But for a name that ends in -s, that might not even be the case:
German doesn't generally use an apostrophe for ownership, but some names ending with -s or with a a sound that sound like -s are an exception:
Hans’ Haus
Karl Marx’ langer Bart
posted by kinddieserzeit at 2:42 PM on June 22, 2015
dorque, the example of Leifs apartment is a bit misleading here, because the name doesn't end in s. I realise you were showing that in some languages the apostrophe is used less, or is not used at all, to show ownership. But for a name that ends in -s, that might not even be the case:
German doesn't generally use an apostrophe for ownership, but some names ending with -s or with a a sound that sound like -s are an exception:
Hans’ Haus
Karl Marx’ langer Bart
posted by kinddieserzeit at 2:42 PM on June 22, 2015
Best answer: I agree with languagehat; indeed, in any issue of language I would be either a) extremely confident, b) extremely foolish, or c) both to do otherwise.
As it is an issue of style, you may chose to do either, unless you are operating under an external style guide (writing for a newspaper, for example, or adding to a document where the decision has already been made). I am slightly annoyed by those extra characters hanging around the ends of words, making them slightly difficult to pronounce, but let your conscience be your guide in your own writing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:43 PM on June 22, 2015
As it is an issue of style, you may chose to do either, unless you are operating under an external style guide (writing for a newspaper, for example, or adding to a document where the decision has already been made). I am slightly annoyed by those extra characters hanging around the ends of words, making them slightly difficult to pronounce, but let your conscience be your guide in your own writing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:43 PM on June 22, 2015
Best answer: dorque, the example of Leifs apartment is a bit misleading here, because the name doesn't end in s.
Yes, sorry, I deleted for brevity's sake a sentence acknowledging this because IME the usage of an apostrophe with names like Lars or Jens is also inconsistent, at least in colloquial writing. From a stricter perspective, I definitely agree.
posted by dorque at 2:46 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, sorry, I deleted for brevity's sake a sentence acknowledging this because IME the usage of an apostrophe with names like Lars or Jens is also inconsistent, at least in colloquial writing. From a stricter perspective, I definitely agree.
posted by dorque at 2:46 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you everyone!
And yes I am in Scandinavia and can get away with Lars apartment is.....
But I feel more comfortable using Lars´apartment in the example. But but - it still feels so wrong :)
posted by Funmonkey1 at 3:25 PM on June 22, 2015
And yes I am in Scandinavia and can get away with Lars apartment is.....
But I feel more comfortable using Lars´apartment in the example. But but - it still feels so wrong :)
posted by Funmonkey1 at 3:25 PM on June 22, 2015
Best answer: Not to be a total pedant about this (but this is a question about grammar rules, so hey), but the character you're using for an apostrophe (´) is a diacritical mark and not an actual apostrophe (' or ’). If you're using a keyboard layout in another language it's probably an easy mistake.
I'm not exactly sure how this works across different fonts, but if you're typing this for something important, it might be a good idea to make sure you use the ' instead of the ´ in case the ´ renders in some unusual way on someone else's screen.
it´s
it's
it’s
posted by phunniemee at 4:11 PM on June 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm not exactly sure how this works across different fonts, but if you're typing this for something important, it might be a good idea to make sure you use the ' instead of the ´ in case the ´ renders in some unusual way on someone else's screen.
it´s
it's
it’s
posted by phunniemee at 4:11 PM on June 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:47 PM on June 22, 2015 [17 favorites]