On Quotation and Punctuation

April 30, 2015 9:01 AM

Should a sentence end with a quotation mark or the punctuation mark?

A friend and fellow MeFite who will remain unnamed and I have entered into a heated argument as to whether a sentence should end with a quotation mark that encapsulated the sentence's ending punctuation mark, or the other way around.

I think it is the former, and he the latter.

This is crucial to our relationship going forward.

posted by ourt to Writing & Language (23 answers total)

American usage agrees with you, British with your friend.
posted by mmf at 9:05 AM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

To specify: Let's say I'm quoting somebody who said, say, "I think linguistic prescriptivism is awesome", and I wanted to ask a question such as this:

Can I really continue being friends with somebody who says things like, "I think linguistic prescriptivism is awesome"?

Ignore how horribly-worded that sentence is, or how unnecessary the quotation.

To me, putting that question mark inside the quotation marks feels like it modifies the nature of the quotation; I'd be fine with ending that same sentence on a period if the original quotation ended on a period there.

(Outing myself as the MeFite mentioned in the question.)
posted by rorgy at 9:05 AM on April 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

For what purpose? I think you'll probably have to make decisions about this for your own writing (and either way it's better to be consistent) but I'm always wary about conversations about what the "right way" to do grammar/punctuation is; I feel like too often they're used in a prescriptivist way as a means of avoiding paying attention to what someone is actually saying. In this way it tends to reinforce existing power structures while hiding behind the guise of academic propriety.

(My understanding is that if you're writing a college paper it's probably the former, but I think there's a good argument to be made for "since the punctuation is actually serving the purpose of ending the quoting sentence, it belongs outside the quotes".)
posted by slutze at 9:07 AM on April 30, 2015

Can I really continue being friends with somebody who says things like, "I think linguistic prescriptivism is awesome"?

This is a specific case and in that specific case, this is correct, the question mark is not part of the quotation.

But just in a general sense where there is punctuation as part of the quotation, mmf is correct.
posted by jessamyn at 9:07 AM on April 30, 2015 [12 favorites]

This is a major difference in practice in, broadly speaking, American English and British English. There's no definitive answer to the question, which is fundamentally one of style preference; you can at a personal level tactically choose to blend in with or buck the common preference in your language region as suits your needs or the style guide requirements of any notional wordsmithing employer, but neither of you can reasonably expect to get to a place of being actually, resolvedly correct.
posted by cortex at 9:08 AM on April 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

In my field, the answer (from my field's style guide) depends on what the punctuation mark is: a period or comma would go inside the closing quotation mark, but an exclamation point or question mark not in the original quote--i.e., something that potentially alters the meaning--would go outside of the closing quotation mark. So it depends on whether your question is "what do style guides say" or "what do y'all randos on the green think?" / "what do y'all randos on the green think"?
posted by resurrexit at 9:09 AM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

But Rorgy, if I'm quoting you asking that question, it becomes "Can I ... things like 'I think linguistic prescriptivism is awesome'?"

The question mark goes inside the quote because it's part of the quote. Otherwise it goes outside.
posted by LionIndex at 9:09 AM on April 30, 2015 [4 favorites]

LionIndex, Jessamyn: This was the gist of what I was trying to argue! Thank you both for putting it far more effectively than I was able to. This makes sense to me.
posted by rorgy at 9:11 AM on April 30, 2015

As this is a matter of style, it will vary depending on what style you follow. From the AP Stylebook entry question mark (?):

PLACEMENT WITH QUOTATION MARKS: Inside or outside, depending on the meaning:

• Who wrote "Gone With the Wind"?
• He asked, "How long will it take?"

posted by mbrubeck at 9:11 AM on April 30, 2015 [10 favorites]

Response by poster: I suppose, given what I'm currently majoring (Journalism), I've had it ingrained into my brain that one needs to end a quote at the end of a sentence with a quotation mark, no ifs, ands, or buts.

That said, I'm a bit fuzzy on whether one needs to punctuate a quote if it is in the middle of the sentence, and there is still more to be "sentenced," for a lack of better wording.

Note: I'm a tad out of it today because finals, but I'm trying to wrap my head around all of this/my general surroundings.
posted by ourt at 9:15 AM on April 30, 2015

Response by poster: Also, mbrubeck, what edition of the AP Stylebook are you referencing?

This is news/quite upsetting to me. I'm getting far too invested and competitive with this, it's embarrassing.
posted by ourt at 9:17 AM on April 30, 2015

I (American) was taught that the question mark goes inside the quotation mark, regardless of whether the question mark is part of the quotation or not. I.e., both of the following are consistent with what I was taught growing up:

• Who wrote the line "The quality of mercy is not strained?"
• William Shakespeare wrote the line "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?"

No, this doesn't make logical sense to me, but the rules of (American) English grammar are not required to be logical. (I'd also note a "logical" approach would suggest two question marks are necessary if one is asking a question about a quotation which is itself a question, one inside the quotation marks and one outside, and that is something I've never seen in practice.)
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:19 AM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

PLACEMENT WITH QUOTATION MARKS: Inside or outside, depending on the meaning:

What, if anything, does the AP Stylebook say about the case where a question mark would be "meant" both inside and outside? Would the AP Stylebook have us write the following:

• Who played Apollo in the Star Trek episode "Who Mourns for Adonais?"?

Because that seems absurd to me.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:25 AM on April 30, 2015

Ask your friend how he'd punctuate this.:

Did he shout "Screw you!"?

posted by Chocolate Pickle at 9:32 AM on April 30, 2015 [5 favorites]

Copy editor here. (Fiction copy editor, just to clarify.) In my work I use the Chicago Manual of Style, and this falls under the 16th edition's rule 6.10: "...question marks and exclamation points follow closing quotation marks unless they belong within the quoted matter."

And here are two of the examples they cite:
Which of Shakespeare's characters said, "All the world's a stage"?
but
"What's the rush?" she wondered.
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:34 AM on April 30, 2015 [9 favorites]

Did he shout "Screw you!"?

That's hideous, but it at least reads more accurately, to me, than:

Did he shout "Screw you!?"

The interrobang there makes it all-but-impossible to determine which speaker is attempting which inflection.
posted by rorgy at 9:34 AM on April 30, 2015

Devil's Advocate,

This would be correct:
Who played Apollo in the Star Trek episode "Who Mourns for Adonais?"
Because the question mark is part of the quote. No need to use two.

This is incorrect:
Who wrote the line "The quality of mercy is not strained?"
The question mark belongs outside.

This is correct:
William Shakespeare wrote the line "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?"
posted by vunder at 9:34 AM on April 30, 2015

Something additional to note because it's very commonly botched is that the "American" style usually only applies to periods and commas — colons, semicolons, and the like generally go outside quotation marks even in the US style, and as has already been discussed the other sentence-ending punctuation marks (exclamation points and question marks) go in or out depending on whether they're part of the quotation or not. I perhaps tenuously infer that this is because the motivation for putting the little guys inside/below the quotation mark American-style is basically visual, not semantic (IIRC this is also Bringhurst's take).

But really, you guys need to agree on a style manual before you're going to get anywhere; this isn't the kind of thing you can settle from first principles, because it's essentially arbitrary. The only "should" here is what your chosen style manual says.
posted by RogerB at 9:35 AM on April 30, 2015 [5 favorites]

I was quoting the AP Stylebook Online. (My library has a subscription.) Like I said, you have to pick a style before you can answer this question; this was just the one I had at hand.

> That said, I'm a bit fuzzy on whether one needs to punctuate a quote if it is in the middle of the sentence, and there is still more to be "sentenced," for a lack of better wording.

If we go to the AP Stylebook again:

The question mark supersedes the comma that normally is used when supplying attribution for a quotation: "Who is there?" she asked.

> What, if anything, does the AP Stylebook say about the case where a question mark would be "meant" both inside and outside?

It does not mention this case, as far as I can tell.

For cross-Atlantic comparison, The Economist Style Guide:

Place full points and commas inside the quotes for a complete quoted sentence; otherwise the point comes outside –

• Anna said: 'Your style guide needs updating,' and I said: 'I agree.'
• but: Anna said updating the guide was 'a difficult and time-consuming task'.

and the European Commission's English Style Guide:

Quotation marks at the end of a sentence normally precede the concluding full stop, question mark or exclamation mark:

The American Government favours ‘a two-way street in arms procurement’.
Has the Commission published ‘A European Strategy for Encouraging Local Development and Employment Initiatives’?

However, if the quotation itself contains a concluding mark, no full stop is required after the quotation mark.

Walther Rathenau once said ‘We stand or fall on our economic performance.’
This section is entitled ‘A new culture of entrepreneurship in the EU: What to do?’

posted by mbrubeck at 9:36 AM on April 30, 2015

Chicago Manual of Style: Other punctuation in relation to closing quotation marks: "Colons and semicolons—unlike periods and commas—follow closing quotation marks; question marks and exclamation points follow closing quotation marks unless they belong within the quoted matter."

Additional discussion:

American Psychological Association Style Blog, Punctuating Around Quotation Marks

LawProse Lesson #160: Correct punctuation with quotation marks
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:38 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

Note that usage is changing, probably because of technology. Traditional usage has the period, for example, inside the quotation marks: "Now is the winter of our discontent," he said, "made glorious summer by this sun of York."

However, that doesn't work in computers. If you were to say:

My password is "letmein."

Then the reader would be confused. Is the password:

letmein.

or

letmein

So people are starting to put the punctuation outside.

My password is "letmein".

I think that's where we'll end up. Putting the punctuation inside looks prettier, but it's confusing, and disambiguation will win in the end.
posted by musofire at 10:18 AM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

Can I really continue being friends with somebody who says things like, "I think linguistic prescriptivism is awesome"?

Can I really continue being friends with somebody who asks questions like, "Do you think linguistic prescriptivism is awesome?"
posted by DarlingBri at 2:35 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]

In the US, if the concluding punctuation mark is a period, the period always goes before the quotation mark. It doesn't matter what function the period serves.

If the concluding punctuation mark is a question mark or exclamation mark, it goes before the quotation mark if it's part of the quotation. It goes after the quotation mark if it's not part of the material being quoted. For example:

He asked, "What time is it?"

Why did you say, "I have a bad feeling about this"?

She exclaimed, "Stop that!"

In contrast, if you're quoting someone who didn't use an exclamation mark, but you want your whole sentence to be an exclamation, you should put the exclamation mark after the quotation mark.

Those are immutable rules in the US. It's a matter of custom, and those are the customs in America. Any US-based style guide that dictates otherwise is wrong.

I'm not British, but my understanding is that the British put the quotation mark before the period.

In the future, when asking about punctuation, please specify your country or countries. (I know your profile says you're in the US, but I don't know if that's your permanent residence, whether your friend lives in another country, etc.)
posted by John Cohen at 4:25 PM on April 30, 2015