Teach me about guitar tone and how to acquire it.
April 30, 2015 9:09 AM Subscribe
I have a 15-ish year-old Mexican Stratocaster and a 5-ish year-old Fender Super Champ XD amplifier. Together this combination sounds... not good. I would like to fix that somehow.
After 20 years of being that guy who knows the beginning of 73 songs I've finally started taking guitar lessons so I can learn what the hell I'm doing. Things are going well in that regard. As I play more though, I'm discovering that I'm not happy with the way the guitar sounds.
My playing is mostly at practice volume, lowish. Very occasionally someone hops on drums and I have to turn it up to 11 to be heard. My primary concern is the low-volume playing but I would also like to sound good when I do turn it up.
Part of my problem is I know nothing at all about tone. Forgive me if I'm not using the right terminology. I'm not really sure what tone I'm even looking for, I just want it to sound like I imagine an electric guitar should sound. I guess I'll know it when I hear it. I know what I have now is certainly NOT it.
With the bridge pickup the Strat sounds very bright. A very sharp twang, very treble-y. I guess those all mean the same things? My understanding is that's how a Strat is supposed to sound but it often sounds a bit TOO twangy.
With the middle or neck pickup everything is very bass-y. This is the real issue. Even fiddling with the tone knobs on the guitar (which, as far as I can tell, don't even have an effect on the bridge pickup) doesn't seem to do much. Messing with the high/low/mid knobs on the amp help a little but it seems there is no combination that sounds "good" to me. It's all very muddy.
Basically this combination together sounds either too twangy or just muddy. These are both decent-enough toys. I initially bought the amp based on reviews I'd read and I know a Strat, even a Mexican one, shouldn't sound bad. I have an Ibanez TS-9 as well but that just overdrives the muddiness, it doesn't fix it.
What can I do to get a decent tone? I would prefer to stick to the combination I have, without adding too much in between. So sticking a Line-6 Pod in between, while it might solve the issue, isn't something I want to do unless that's the only thing I can do.
Replacing the guitar and/or amp would certainly do the trick but I want to stick to fixing what I have.
The guitar was setup professionally a couple years ago and otherwise plays nicely. It just doesn't sound great.
The amp has two modes, one is a basic tube amp, the other has several amp models. I would prefer to stick to the tube mode. Switching to the amp models changes the sound but the overall muddiness is still there.
I'm handy with a soldering iron and other tools so if I can replace the speaker or pickups with something else, that's the sort of thing I'm looking for. Specific brand names and why I should pick those brands would be helpful.
Please talk to me like I'm six years old. If you advise me to do something like replace the pickups or the speaker it would help if you would also describe why I should do that. Links to audio comparing stock to replacement stuff would be helpful as well.
After 20 years of being that guy who knows the beginning of 73 songs I've finally started taking guitar lessons so I can learn what the hell I'm doing. Things are going well in that regard. As I play more though, I'm discovering that I'm not happy with the way the guitar sounds.
My playing is mostly at practice volume, lowish. Very occasionally someone hops on drums and I have to turn it up to 11 to be heard. My primary concern is the low-volume playing but I would also like to sound good when I do turn it up.
Part of my problem is I know nothing at all about tone. Forgive me if I'm not using the right terminology. I'm not really sure what tone I'm even looking for, I just want it to sound like I imagine an electric guitar should sound. I guess I'll know it when I hear it. I know what I have now is certainly NOT it.
With the bridge pickup the Strat sounds very bright. A very sharp twang, very treble-y. I guess those all mean the same things? My understanding is that's how a Strat is supposed to sound but it often sounds a bit TOO twangy.
With the middle or neck pickup everything is very bass-y. This is the real issue. Even fiddling with the tone knobs on the guitar (which, as far as I can tell, don't even have an effect on the bridge pickup) doesn't seem to do much. Messing with the high/low/mid knobs on the amp help a little but it seems there is no combination that sounds "good" to me. It's all very muddy.
Basically this combination together sounds either too twangy or just muddy. These are both decent-enough toys. I initially bought the amp based on reviews I'd read and I know a Strat, even a Mexican one, shouldn't sound bad. I have an Ibanez TS-9 as well but that just overdrives the muddiness, it doesn't fix it.
What can I do to get a decent tone? I would prefer to stick to the combination I have, without adding too much in between. So sticking a Line-6 Pod in between, while it might solve the issue, isn't something I want to do unless that's the only thing I can do.
Replacing the guitar and/or amp would certainly do the trick but I want to stick to fixing what I have.
The guitar was setup professionally a couple years ago and otherwise plays nicely. It just doesn't sound great.
The amp has two modes, one is a basic tube amp, the other has several amp models. I would prefer to stick to the tube mode. Switching to the amp models changes the sound but the overall muddiness is still there.
I'm handy with a soldering iron and other tools so if I can replace the speaker or pickups with something else, that's the sort of thing I'm looking for. Specific brand names and why I should pick those brands would be helpful.
Please talk to me like I'm six years old. If you advise me to do something like replace the pickups or the speaker it would help if you would also describe why I should do that. Links to audio comparing stock to replacement stuff would be helpful as well.
Just to get us in the right arena, can you name a player whose guitar sounds the way you think a guitar should?
posted by Jode at 9:24 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Jode at 9:24 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would get a cheap effects processor so you can play with distortion, fuzz, wah, etc.
My first was a Korg AX1G, which was perfectly servicible and appears to be available used for like $40. If you want to avoid too much tinkering, get a distortion pedal with just a couple knobs.
posted by cmoj at 9:24 AM on April 30, 2015
My first was a Korg AX1G, which was perfectly servicible and appears to be available used for like $40. If you want to avoid too much tinkering, get a distortion pedal with just a couple knobs.
posted by cmoj at 9:24 AM on April 30, 2015
You're right, the tone knobs control the neck and middle pickups. You can lessen the twang of the bridge pickup by putting the 5-position switch into the bridge-middle position, and fiddling with your middle pickup tone knob.
Don't forget to fiddle with volume. Having your guitar's volume low and your amp's volume high can have a very different effect than the reverse of that, even if the two have comparable loudness.
If you wanted to get deep you could try replacing the tube that powers the tube amp setting on your amp. IIRC, that amp has a single 12AX7 tube. That is the type of tube. You can do some e-research to figure out what brands/models had particularly well-regarded tubes. And you could try to buy one of those. Vaccuum tubes do wear out or blow.
posted by entropone at 9:30 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't forget to fiddle with volume. Having your guitar's volume low and your amp's volume high can have a very different effect than the reverse of that, even if the two have comparable loudness.
If you wanted to get deep you could try replacing the tube that powers the tube amp setting on your amp. IIRC, that amp has a single 12AX7 tube. That is the type of tube. You can do some e-research to figure out what brands/models had particularly well-regarded tubes. And you could try to buy one of those. Vaccuum tubes do wear out or blow.
posted by entropone at 9:30 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Just to get us in the right arena, can you name a player whose guitar sounds the way you think a guitar should?
If I had to name one guitarist it would be Trey Anastasio (Phish), but I know he gets his tone from a custom built semi-hollow guitar, a shit ton of electronic doodads, a guitar tech, unlimited funds and a great technique.
I'm really not looking to imitate anyone though. Really I could go on YouTube and find just about anyone playing a Strat that sounds better than what I get. Maybe it's the room/rug/hardwood, I dunno. Mine just sounds kind of dead.
I would get a cheap effects processor so you can play with distortion, fuzz, wah, etc.
My goal is to get a decent tone without all those things. Since the electric guitar was invented people have been plugging directly into an amp and sounding ok. I have a semi-decent guitar and amp, it should be able to sound... not bad. Right?
posted by bondcliff at 9:35 AM on April 30, 2015
If I had to name one guitarist it would be Trey Anastasio (Phish), but I know he gets his tone from a custom built semi-hollow guitar, a shit ton of electronic doodads, a guitar tech, unlimited funds and a great technique.
I'm really not looking to imitate anyone though. Really I could go on YouTube and find just about anyone playing a Strat that sounds better than what I get. Maybe it's the room/rug/hardwood, I dunno. Mine just sounds kind of dead.
I would get a cheap effects processor so you can play with distortion, fuzz, wah, etc.
My goal is to get a decent tone without all those things. Since the electric guitar was invented people have been plugging directly into an amp and sounding ok. I have a semi-decent guitar and amp, it should be able to sound... not bad. Right?
posted by bondcliff at 9:35 AM on April 30, 2015
Yeah, it would help a lot to know what you think is a good guitar tone. It's very subjective.
Also, this is a sacrilegious suggestion, but I would save myself a lot of trouble by ditching a real amp and going to an iPad or iPhone amp modeler. I played with a real amp and various effects pedals for decades, and given that I never play at stadium-shaking volume, amp modelers sound just as good, and are way easier and cheaper. Seriously, if you played a small show and hid your equipment, most people would never know you didn't use a real amp.
I just plug my guitar into an Apogee Jam, then plug that into the iPad, then put headphones into the iPad. If you want to be loud, you can just plug your iPad into your amp's line-in jack or any other speaker.
Then, I just pick a preset in the amp modeler software that's 90% of the sound I want and move a few sliders.
posted by ignignokt at 9:37 AM on April 30, 2015
Also, this is a sacrilegious suggestion, but I would save myself a lot of trouble by ditching a real amp and going to an iPad or iPhone amp modeler. I played with a real amp and various effects pedals for decades, and given that I never play at stadium-shaking volume, amp modelers sound just as good, and are way easier and cheaper. Seriously, if you played a small show and hid your equipment, most people would never know you didn't use a real amp.
I just plug my guitar into an Apogee Jam, then plug that into the iPad, then put headphones into the iPad. If you want to be loud, you can just plug your iPad into your amp's line-in jack or any other speaker.
Then, I just pick a preset in the amp modeler software that's 90% of the sound I want and move a few sliders.
posted by ignignokt at 9:37 AM on April 30, 2015
I have a semi-decent guitar and amp, it should be able to sound... not bad. Right?
Hmm, in this case, there's a small chance that it is technique, then. Do you sound good at your guitar class?
posted by ignignokt at 9:38 AM on April 30, 2015
Hmm, in this case, there's a small chance that it is technique, then. Do you sound good at your guitar class?
posted by ignignokt at 9:38 AM on April 30, 2015
Even though electric guitar tone can be changed by fiddling with gear and knobs, a lot of your tone will come from your hands. It may be that you just don't know what you want to sound like, or what your current gear sounds like, or most importantly what YOU sound like.
Your rig as is is good stuff. The Super Champ XD is very well regarded and a strat is pretty much a benchmark. Switching out pickups or speakers will not drastically change your sound. If I were you I would just set all the tone knobs to 12 o'clock on the amp and spend your time practicing and listening. Eventually you will get an ear for what you want to sound like and can go for it from there. Focusing on gear now is putting the cart before the horse. It's the arrow not the archer. There are other cliches that are slipping my mind at the moment.
posted by greasy_skillet at 9:41 AM on April 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
Your rig as is is good stuff. The Super Champ XD is very well regarded and a strat is pretty much a benchmark. Switching out pickups or speakers will not drastically change your sound. If I were you I would just set all the tone knobs to 12 o'clock on the amp and spend your time practicing and listening. Eventually you will get an ear for what you want to sound like and can go for it from there. Focusing on gear now is putting the cart before the horse. It's the arrow not the archer. There are other cliches that are slipping my mind at the moment.
posted by greasy_skillet at 9:41 AM on April 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
I meant archer, not the arrow...
posted by greasy_skillet at 9:55 AM on April 30, 2015
posted by greasy_skillet at 9:55 AM on April 30, 2015
With the bridge pickup the Strat sounds very bright. A very sharp twang, very treble-y. I guess those all mean the same things?
Yup, close enough, and bridge pickups will almost always sound brighter than a neck or middle pickup in any guitar, because physics of vibrating strings as they pass over the bridge saddles.
Even fiddling with the tone knobs on the guitar
9 times out of 10, tone knobs on guitars only reduce treble or brightness, they can't add any & they have no effect on the bass or low tones, it won't fix your "muddiness." The exception is when there are "active" pickups or other electronics inside the guitar, which would require a battery somewhere inside. I'm really confident your guitar doesn't have these.
What can I do to get a decent tone?
You've fiddled with the tone controls on the amp, you don't want to use one of the modeling settings, so you've pretty much reached the limit of what you can do with that guitar + that amp. Next step is replacing speaker and/or pickups.
Or, as mentioned above, think about working on playing technique rather than gear.
I'm handy with a soldering iron and other tools so if I can replace the speaker or pickups with something else, that's the sort of thing I'm looking for. Specific brand names and why I should pick those brands would be helpful.
Please talk to me like I'm six years old. If you advise me to do something like replace the pickups or the speaker it would help if you would also describe why I should do that. Links to audio comparing stock to replacement stuff would be helpful as well.
Barring personal anecdotes, you are seriously kinda asking for a lot, here, bordering on GFE. There are a ton of huge enormous websites and forums and YouTube channels where guitar players discuss and debate and review a bazillion pieces of gear (pickups and speakers very much included), and it's all so subjective. I get that you don't want to head down the very very deep rabbit hole of tone-seeking, but you've gotta do some of the work yourself.
Replacing the speaker should not require any soldering, just a screwdriver and/or wrench. The pics I found of the back of the amp show a couple of connectors that should just pull off the speaker.
There are seriously waaaaaaaaay too many replacement pickup options out there, everything from cheap Chinese stuff that often actually sounds good to super-expensive hand-wound & hand-made boutique offerings. And there's almost no way to reliably 100% predict how a given set of pickups will sound in a given guitar, it's always a gamble to some extent.
Having said that, Seymour Duncan and DiMarzio are the granddaddy companies of U.S. replacement pickup companies, with reasonable prices. I've used products from both with success.
Maybe it's the room/rug/hardwood, I dunno.
Yes, this is entirely possible, try moving your set-up to a different place.
Mine just sounds kind of dead.
This sounds like you might want to add a touch of reverb, which your amp has.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:03 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yup, close enough, and bridge pickups will almost always sound brighter than a neck or middle pickup in any guitar, because physics of vibrating strings as they pass over the bridge saddles.
Even fiddling with the tone knobs on the guitar
9 times out of 10, tone knobs on guitars only reduce treble or brightness, they can't add any & they have no effect on the bass or low tones, it won't fix your "muddiness." The exception is when there are "active" pickups or other electronics inside the guitar, which would require a battery somewhere inside. I'm really confident your guitar doesn't have these.
What can I do to get a decent tone?
You've fiddled with the tone controls on the amp, you don't want to use one of the modeling settings, so you've pretty much reached the limit of what you can do with that guitar + that amp. Next step is replacing speaker and/or pickups.
Or, as mentioned above, think about working on playing technique rather than gear.
I'm handy with a soldering iron and other tools so if I can replace the speaker or pickups with something else, that's the sort of thing I'm looking for. Specific brand names and why I should pick those brands would be helpful.
Please talk to me like I'm six years old. If you advise me to do something like replace the pickups or the speaker it would help if you would also describe why I should do that. Links to audio comparing stock to replacement stuff would be helpful as well.
Barring personal anecdotes, you are seriously kinda asking for a lot, here, bordering on GFE. There are a ton of huge enormous websites and forums and YouTube channels where guitar players discuss and debate and review a bazillion pieces of gear (pickups and speakers very much included), and it's all so subjective. I get that you don't want to head down the very very deep rabbit hole of tone-seeking, but you've gotta do some of the work yourself.
Replacing the speaker should not require any soldering, just a screwdriver and/or wrench. The pics I found of the back of the amp show a couple of connectors that should just pull off the speaker.
There are seriously waaaaaaaaay too many replacement pickup options out there, everything from cheap Chinese stuff that often actually sounds good to super-expensive hand-wound & hand-made boutique offerings. And there's almost no way to reliably 100% predict how a given set of pickups will sound in a given guitar, it's always a gamble to some extent.
Having said that, Seymour Duncan and DiMarzio are the granddaddy companies of U.S. replacement pickup companies, with reasonable prices. I've used products from both with success.
Maybe it's the room/rug/hardwood, I dunno.
Yes, this is entirely possible, try moving your set-up to a different place.
Mine just sounds kind of dead.
This sounds like you might want to add a touch of reverb, which your amp has.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:03 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
A couple of ideas that you can try for free/cheap:
1) Try adjusting the pickup height. Maybe lower the bass side of the neck/middle first, but play around with it while listening carefully. Might be good to measure the current height in case you want to go back.
2) You could install a series capacitor for the neck/middle pickups to roll off the bass. Maybe somewhere between .003 and .0068 uF. A smaller capacitor value will have a larger effect.
3) Disconnect the tone control. Probably won't have a huge effect, but could help.
posted by doctord at 10:05 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
1) Try adjusting the pickup height. Maybe lower the bass side of the neck/middle first, but play around with it while listening carefully. Might be good to measure the current height in case you want to go back.
2) You could install a series capacitor for the neck/middle pickups to roll off the bass. Maybe somewhere between .003 and .0068 uF. A smaller capacitor value will have a larger effect.
3) Disconnect the tone control. Probably won't have a huge effect, but could help.
posted by doctord at 10:05 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's the arrow not the archer. There are other cliches that are slipping my mind at the moment.
Heh. Driver, not the car, etc.
Nthing what greasy_skillet said: don't get so hung up on tone/gear that it comes at the expense of practice. Time spent tinkering is time you could be spending playing!
If you personally know any mindblowing players, you'll know that they can still blow your hair back on the crappiest of gear.
You're playing on stuff that's good standard gear for a reason - it works well.
As a Strat player myself, I can say the following is pretty solid advice:
You can lessen the twang of the bridge pickup by putting the 5-position switch into the bridge-middle position, and fiddling with your middle pickup tone knob.
That's my go-to pickup position on my (all single coil) Strat. I roll the tone up and down depending on what I'm playing.
Also, pick materials can affect tone a little bit - don't overthink it, but try different picks (Tortex, nylon, celluloid). The hardness and type of material can make a difference.
But since you said people could talk to you like you're six years old:
If you're playing alot, are you changing your strings frequently? Or do you have a set of strings that's been on there for ages?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:06 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Heh. Driver, not the car, etc.
Nthing what greasy_skillet said: don't get so hung up on tone/gear that it comes at the expense of practice. Time spent tinkering is time you could be spending playing!
If you personally know any mindblowing players, you'll know that they can still blow your hair back on the crappiest of gear.
You're playing on stuff that's good standard gear for a reason - it works well.
As a Strat player myself, I can say the following is pretty solid advice:
You can lessen the twang of the bridge pickup by putting the 5-position switch into the bridge-middle position, and fiddling with your middle pickup tone knob.
That's my go-to pickup position on my (all single coil) Strat. I roll the tone up and down depending on what I'm playing.
Also, pick materials can affect tone a little bit - don't overthink it, but try different picks (Tortex, nylon, celluloid). The hardness and type of material can make a difference.
But since you said people could talk to you like you're six years old:
If you're playing alot, are you changing your strings frequently? Or do you have a set of strings that's been on there for ages?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:06 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Since the electric guitar was invented people have been plugging directly into an amp and sounding ok. I have a semi-decent guitar and amp, it should be able to sound... not bad. Right?
Gear is nothing without good hands. Two people can be playing the same set-up and sound totally different because of what they're doing with their hands. Where are you hitting the strings? Playing closer to the neck or bridge wildly affects the tone. How are you pressing the strings? Wiggle your finger while you hit a string and you'll hear a much different sound than if you're just pressing a string down. Are you bending strings? Which formation are you using to play a chord? If you're playing a solo of some kind, you can play the same note a ton of different places on the neck and they will all sound different.
Watch some Youtube videos and look at players' hands. What are they doing that you aren't? Pick a song you like that you know how to play, watch a video of the song being performed, and try to figure out what they're doing that you aren't. Before you devote 50 hours to modding your guitar, mod your hands.
As for gear, tube amps get their awesome tubie-ness in part from volume, so that accounts for some of the issue. What kind of fretboard do you have? Rosewood or maple? Maple tends to be twangier than rosewood.
posted by good lorneing at 10:14 AM on April 30, 2015
Gear is nothing without good hands. Two people can be playing the same set-up and sound totally different because of what they're doing with their hands. Where are you hitting the strings? Playing closer to the neck or bridge wildly affects the tone. How are you pressing the strings? Wiggle your finger while you hit a string and you'll hear a much different sound than if you're just pressing a string down. Are you bending strings? Which formation are you using to play a chord? If you're playing a solo of some kind, you can play the same note a ton of different places on the neck and they will all sound different.
Watch some Youtube videos and look at players' hands. What are they doing that you aren't? Pick a song you like that you know how to play, watch a video of the song being performed, and try to figure out what they're doing that you aren't. Before you devote 50 hours to modding your guitar, mod your hands.
As for gear, tube amps get their awesome tubie-ness in part from volume, so that accounts for some of the issue. What kind of fretboard do you have? Rosewood or maple? Maple tends to be twangier than rosewood.
posted by good lorneing at 10:14 AM on April 30, 2015
Thicker strings and a thicker pick? ZZ Top's guitarist used to use a mexican peso as a pick to get a really fat midtone sound. Or thinner strings, thinner pick if you want to go the other direction.
posted by natteringnabob at 10:22 AM on April 30, 2015
posted by natteringnabob at 10:22 AM on April 30, 2015
Also: you will not sound the same alone in your bedroom as your favorite musicians/recordings sound. The sounds you love to listen to have context, be it in a band setting or a specific room. Yes, you can work on the idea of "tone" alone, but don't get too stuck on it--feel and style will ultimately be much more useful if you want to play with other humans.
posted by quarterframer at 10:30 AM on April 30, 2015
posted by quarterframer at 10:30 AM on April 30, 2015
Experimenting with different gauge strings and picks, putting an EQ stomp box in your signal chain, putting a better speaker in your amp or pickup in your guitar will all help. Strats have a distinctive range of tones, and they are not capable of the full tonal spectrum of sounds of all electric guitar designs, although good Strat players (I'm a Tele guy, we do this a little less) learn how to work their pickup switch and tone and volume controls pretty actively. And it is true that the pickups on MexiStrats of that vintage are pretty crappy, so a $100 spent on a better bridge pickup (at least) might be worthwhile. But as several people above have noted, a huge amount of tone is in your technique.
Do you ever play on other rigs? Head down to a music store and try some different guitars and amps and get a sense of how much switching around changes your perception of tone quality. Sometimes your technique is dependent on your comfort with the instrument.
posted by spitbull at 10:44 AM on April 30, 2015
Do you ever play on other rigs? Head down to a music store and try some different guitars and amps and get a sense of how much switching around changes your perception of tone quality. Sometimes your technique is dependent on your comfort with the instrument.
posted by spitbull at 10:44 AM on April 30, 2015
Response by poster: Trying not to threadsit, but to speak to the answers stressing technique:
I understand the same equipment in the hands of a pro is going to sound vastly different. I know that technique is huge. I am constantly trying to improve my technique and have noticed that things have sounded better as I improve. I can bend just fine and while I'm not B.B. King I can do a passable vibrato.
I understand throwing money at Guitar Center isn't going to make me a better player. I made that mistake when I was younger and eventually sold off all my silly DOD flanger and delay pedals and stopped trying to sound like Eddie Van Halen or The Edge. I realized that learning basic chords was more important than trying to play all that light speed DUGGADUGGADUGGA stuff from Master of Puppets.
I'm not dismissing technique. I am all about improving that. I don't think that's what I'm talking about here though.
Perhaps I'm not doing a good job of explaining what I'm after or what I seem to be missing. To me when I play a chord or riff on the guitar, a chord or riff I can play just fine with everything sounding clear, it sounds off. Like playing the radio with the bass turned all the way up or if the radio were buried under a pile of rotting trout. I'm exaggerating a bit, but the difference I'm after would be if I adjusted the bass on the radio or removed the trout.
FWIW, I use D'Addario EXL110-3D Nickel Wound Strings, Regular Light. I have a maple fretboard. I mostly use Dunlop Tortex picks (prefer .88mm) but really I don't think it's a question of picks. I have, over the years, used different types and gauges of strings. I used Elixer strings a few years ago and did not like the sound I got from those at all. Strings have been replaced recently and other than that fresh string sound you get for the first couple of hours changing the strings doesn't make that much of a difference.
posted by bondcliff at 10:48 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I understand the same equipment in the hands of a pro is going to sound vastly different. I know that technique is huge. I am constantly trying to improve my technique and have noticed that things have sounded better as I improve. I can bend just fine and while I'm not B.B. King I can do a passable vibrato.
I understand throwing money at Guitar Center isn't going to make me a better player. I made that mistake when I was younger and eventually sold off all my silly DOD flanger and delay pedals and stopped trying to sound like Eddie Van Halen or The Edge. I realized that learning basic chords was more important than trying to play all that light speed DUGGADUGGADUGGA stuff from Master of Puppets.
I'm not dismissing technique. I am all about improving that. I don't think that's what I'm talking about here though.
Perhaps I'm not doing a good job of explaining what I'm after or what I seem to be missing. To me when I play a chord or riff on the guitar, a chord or riff I can play just fine with everything sounding clear, it sounds off. Like playing the radio with the bass turned all the way up or if the radio were buried under a pile of rotting trout. I'm exaggerating a bit, but the difference I'm after would be if I adjusted the bass on the radio or removed the trout.
FWIW, I use D'Addario EXL110-3D Nickel Wound Strings, Regular Light. I have a maple fretboard. I mostly use Dunlop Tortex picks (prefer .88mm) but really I don't think it's a question of picks. I have, over the years, used different types and gauges of strings. I used Elixer strings a few years ago and did not like the sound I got from those at all. Strings have been replaced recently and other than that fresh string sound you get for the first couple of hours changing the strings doesn't make that much of a difference.
posted by bondcliff at 10:48 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think this is the kinda thing where in-person help would go a long way. Can you bring your amp in to your guitar lesson one week?
posted by ignignokt at 11:07 AM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ignignokt at 11:07 AM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Technique is a big part of tone. Your experience as a guitarist is a huge part of tone. Also, you're describing that you want a tone that comes out of some dude's super expensive gear but you don't want to replace your fairly cheap gear. The only thing I can say in the face of all of that, is to boost the mids on the amp and try adjusting the volume on your guitar, and keep the tone knob(s) on the guitar all the way up. Try setting the pickup selector to a 'blend' of the middle and either of the other pickups, not one pickup by itself. On strat-like guitars, I find that the bridge-middle blend is decent.
posted by destructive cactus at 11:08 AM on April 30, 2015
posted by destructive cactus at 11:08 AM on April 30, 2015
Well, at the margin, better gear has better tone. So given that the rig you're playing on is about a $600-700 rig in current prices, moving up to an American Standard Strat and a Princeton will improve your tone.
What you're describing sounds like something might really just not be right. Either you've got shit-ass pickups or their height adjustment is off, or you've got oxidized or failing controls, or your amp or speaker might be fried. There's no way to know without experimenting -- plug in a different guitar to your amp, plug your guitar into another amp, have the best player you know come over and see what s/he can do with what you've got. If you can't get a sweet and fat (slightly biting, bassy but not muddy bottomed and ringing highs) tone out of a Strat with the middle pickup engaged, tone and volume both backed just slightly off full blast, and a Fender amp set at 12 o'clock high across the row, something's wrong with your gear. That should provide an acceptable simulation of standard Strat tone. So if you're not hearing it, yeah you need to fix or replace the guitar or the amp, or the tone you want to hear is not the standard Strat tone, but something else and your rig isn't capable of delivering it without putting shit in between the guitar and the amp. I am a devotee of just plugging a guitar into an amp most of the time. But the music I love -- country and R&B -- doesn't depend on non-amp effects for tone traditionally.
(I for one love Elixir strings by the way. I use them nearly exclusively anymore and find their tonal quality lasts a lot longer than anything else I've used. And they are so smooth to play. And I hate D'Addario XLs, which to me sound harsh and biting and wiry at .011 gauge on a Telecaster. So yeah, tone is subjective.)
posted by spitbull at 11:12 AM on April 30, 2015
What you're describing sounds like something might really just not be right. Either you've got shit-ass pickups or their height adjustment is off, or you've got oxidized or failing controls, or your amp or speaker might be fried. There's no way to know without experimenting -- plug in a different guitar to your amp, plug your guitar into another amp, have the best player you know come over and see what s/he can do with what you've got. If you can't get a sweet and fat (slightly biting, bassy but not muddy bottomed and ringing highs) tone out of a Strat with the middle pickup engaged, tone and volume both backed just slightly off full blast, and a Fender amp set at 12 o'clock high across the row, something's wrong with your gear. That should provide an acceptable simulation of standard Strat tone. So if you're not hearing it, yeah you need to fix or replace the guitar or the amp, or the tone you want to hear is not the standard Strat tone, but something else and your rig isn't capable of delivering it without putting shit in between the guitar and the amp. I am a devotee of just plugging a guitar into an amp most of the time. But the music I love -- country and R&B -- doesn't depend on non-amp effects for tone traditionally.
(I for one love Elixir strings by the way. I use them nearly exclusively anymore and find their tonal quality lasts a lot longer than anything else I've used. And they are so smooth to play. And I hate D'Addario XLs, which to me sound harsh and biting and wiry at .011 gauge on a Telecaster. So yeah, tone is subjective.)
posted by spitbull at 11:12 AM on April 30, 2015
Best answer: simple approach/something to try:
I've never played this specific amp, but I've played a *lot* of amps. this is a best-guess based on small solid state fender amps.
Amp (part of the problem is no mid to cut. thus mud)
- Channel 2
- Gain 50%
- Volume 30%
- Voice 5 (65 princeton Clean)
- F/X Reverb 3 - Classic Spring
- Treble 75%
- Bass 100%
Guitar (Mexican Strats are good guitars - I've played one as my bar workhorse for years)
- pickup selector second position (bridge-middle)
- volume 100%
- Tone 90%
This is a rock tone, but defs not good for metal. probably good for phish/dead/allmans-ish stuff (for a starting point for a learner)
cheers - j
(i don't think you need new gear or different strings/picks - just a reliable starting point)
posted by j_curiouser at 11:13 AM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've never played this specific amp, but I've played a *lot* of amps. this is a best-guess based on small solid state fender amps.
Amp (part of the problem is no mid to cut. thus mud)
- Channel 2
- Gain 50%
- Volume 30%
- Voice 5 (65 princeton Clean)
- F/X Reverb 3 - Classic Spring
- Treble 75%
- Bass 100%
Guitar (Mexican Strats are good guitars - I've played one as my bar workhorse for years)
- pickup selector second position (bridge-middle)
- volume 100%
- Tone 90%
This is a rock tone, but defs not good for metal. probably good for phish/dead/allmans-ish stuff (for a starting point for a learner)
cheers - j
(i don't think you need new gear or different strings/picks - just a reliable starting point)
posted by j_curiouser at 11:13 AM on April 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
MexiStrats are good, but until recently they were somewhat known for crappy pickups. Many players bought them and replaced the pickups first thing back in the 90s when I was paying attention. (I have a recently purchased Mexi Tele that has fabulous pickups and tone, however, to the point that I prefer it to my fancier American Tele, which however has Lace Sensors and active EQ, a whole different ballgame, of late. )
And I would say OP's tone problems sound to me like crappy pickups or pickup setting, except for the part where the Ibanez sounds muddy through the same amp.
posted by spitbull at 11:28 AM on April 30, 2015
And I would say OP's tone problems sound to me like crappy pickups or pickup setting, except for the part where the Ibanez sounds muddy through the same amp.
posted by spitbull at 11:28 AM on April 30, 2015
Response by poster: except for the part where the Ibanez sounds muddy through the same amp.
To be clear, the Ibanez TS-9 is an overdrive pedal that I use with the same guitar/amp. It changes the sound to an overdriven muddy sound.
posted by bondcliff at 11:31 AM on April 30, 2015
To be clear, the Ibanez TS-9 is an overdrive pedal that I use with the same guitar/amp. It changes the sound to an overdriven muddy sound.
posted by bondcliff at 11:31 AM on April 30, 2015
You're getting a lot of good advice here, and I don;t want to minimize any of it. So just add mine to the mix.
>After 20 years of being that guy who knows the beginning of 73 songs I've finally started taking guitar lessons so I can learn what the hell I'm doing. Things are going well in that regard. As I play more though, I'm discovering that I'm not happy with the way the guitar sounds.
Hi, me! After 30 years of my own musical wanderings, I began taking lessons again last fall. It is definitely the right thing to do and has made me a much better, more focused guitarist. Kudos to you for doing this - it really is an investment in yourself that will pay big dividends down the road!
From my own experience I can tell you that I followed a similar path, and eventually, within the last year or two, began to finally (FINALLY!!) understand how to get consistently good tones from my guitars and amps. This also involved unlearning some stuff that I took as hard, Gospel truths since I was a teenager. Maybe I can pass a few of these along and you can see if any ring true for you, too:
1. Lower the volume on your guitar!! It does not need to be on 10, and in fact almost never really needs to be on 10. It is better to crank your amp into its sweet zone and use your guitar's volume to set output volume, rather than crank the guitar and use the amp's volume to control output volume. This way you can overdrive your amp if you choose to, or clean it up, all by using the guitar's volume.
Caveats: if you are playing late at night, sometimes you need to soften both guitar and amp, or the amp a bit more, but in general, the amp -- especially tube amps -- need to be worked a bit to open up. Your guitar does not need to overdriven the input signal, and in most cases, will sound better and less muddy if it is not completely overdriven. Give that a try before you much with anything else.
2. On most MIM strats the bridge pickup does not have a dedicated tone knob unless you rewire it to have one. So you are right, the tone knob does not affect the bridge pickup output. This is a shame, as I find myself using the tone knob more and more myself these days on my non-Strat guitars. Like the Volume pot, the Tone should not be on 10 all the time.
3. You can spend a small fortune and an ungodly number of hours chasing tone by changing components on your amps and guitar. It all plays a role in your final tone. But if you want to pick one thing to change, the biggest bang-for-your-buck change will be from changing the speaker. However...I am going to recommend you not do that right away, as you are still fighting your current setup and don't really understand it. Your amp and guitar are fine, so you need to master them before you go changing them. Otherwise you will never get the hang of these things.
4. Find a good guitarist of your guitar teach to go through your setup with you and get it to sound good. If you lived in the SF Bay Area I;d offer to do this for you, but you're in Boston, so i can't. However, I am sure your teacher can help you with this! Ask him or her to do so, and you will be happier and less frustrated.
5. Know what you want to sound like, and keep working towards that sound. Don;t give up hope -- the soundas are there, you just need to find them.
I could go on, but that's probably good for now. Good luck!!
posted by mosk at 11:32 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
>After 20 years of being that guy who knows the beginning of 73 songs I've finally started taking guitar lessons so I can learn what the hell I'm doing. Things are going well in that regard. As I play more though, I'm discovering that I'm not happy with the way the guitar sounds.
Hi, me! After 30 years of my own musical wanderings, I began taking lessons again last fall. It is definitely the right thing to do and has made me a much better, more focused guitarist. Kudos to you for doing this - it really is an investment in yourself that will pay big dividends down the road!
From my own experience I can tell you that I followed a similar path, and eventually, within the last year or two, began to finally (FINALLY!!) understand how to get consistently good tones from my guitars and amps. This also involved unlearning some stuff that I took as hard, Gospel truths since I was a teenager. Maybe I can pass a few of these along and you can see if any ring true for you, too:
1. Lower the volume on your guitar!! It does not need to be on 10, and in fact almost never really needs to be on 10. It is better to crank your amp into its sweet zone and use your guitar's volume to set output volume, rather than crank the guitar and use the amp's volume to control output volume. This way you can overdrive your amp if you choose to, or clean it up, all by using the guitar's volume.
Caveats: if you are playing late at night, sometimes you need to soften both guitar and amp, or the amp a bit more, but in general, the amp -- especially tube amps -- need to be worked a bit to open up. Your guitar does not need to overdriven the input signal, and in most cases, will sound better and less muddy if it is not completely overdriven. Give that a try before you much with anything else.
2. On most MIM strats the bridge pickup does not have a dedicated tone knob unless you rewire it to have one. So you are right, the tone knob does not affect the bridge pickup output. This is a shame, as I find myself using the tone knob more and more myself these days on my non-Strat guitars. Like the Volume pot, the Tone should not be on 10 all the time.
3. You can spend a small fortune and an ungodly number of hours chasing tone by changing components on your amps and guitar. It all plays a role in your final tone. But if you want to pick one thing to change, the biggest bang-for-your-buck change will be from changing the speaker. However...I am going to recommend you not do that right away, as you are still fighting your current setup and don't really understand it. Your amp and guitar are fine, so you need to master them before you go changing them. Otherwise you will never get the hang of these things.
4. Find a good guitarist of your guitar teach to go through your setup with you and get it to sound good. If you lived in the SF Bay Area I;d offer to do this for you, but you're in Boston, so i can't. However, I am sure your teacher can help you with this! Ask him or her to do so, and you will be happier and less frustrated.
5. Know what you want to sound like, and keep working towards that sound. Don;t give up hope -- the soundas are there, you just need to find them.
I could go on, but that's probably good for now. Good luck!!
posted by mosk at 11:32 AM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh sorry I misread about the Ibanez. Yeah, I wouldn't put any overdrive pedal in the mix when troubleshooting tone. But then I wouldn't use an overdrive pedal for anything at all. I'm all about the clean.
I'd recommend replacing your pickups, or if you can only do one, then do the bridge pickup first. There are a million options, everyone has opinions, but if you stick a Seymour Duncan standard stacked single coil Strat pickup in there it is guaranteed to be an improvement, if it's not the solution. If you can do two, do the middle one next. You could get this done for a couple hundred bucks with basic Duncans.
posted by spitbull at 11:56 AM on April 30, 2015
I'd recommend replacing your pickups, or if you can only do one, then do the bridge pickup first. There are a million options, everyone has opinions, but if you stick a Seymour Duncan standard stacked single coil Strat pickup in there it is guaranteed to be an improvement, if it's not the solution. If you can do two, do the middle one next. You could get this done for a couple hundred bucks with basic Duncans.
posted by spitbull at 11:56 AM on April 30, 2015
Best answer: Here's some basic understanding, but if you're taking lessons, this is exactly the kind of question you can ask your teacher and get help with that is totally worth the cost of one lesson.
We'll start with this diagram, which shows all the controls on your guitar.
Of the three pickups, the one closest to the bridge is going to get most of the higher harmonics that contribute to brightness. The closer you get towards the middle of the string, the fewer higher harmonics the pickup will see.
On either side of each pickup is a screw. Each pair raises or lowers the pickup with respect to the pickguard. The closer the pickup is to the string, the more signal the pickup will get. In essence, you can use this to adjust the prominence of the sound of the pickup.
There's a 3 or 5 way switch to mix combinations of pickups. See here for a great demonstration.
The tone control is a very simple low-pass filter based on a simple R/C pair (a resistor and a capacitor). A low pass filter lets low(er) frequencies pass through while cutting out the higher frequencies. If your guitar as two tone controls, they may be wired a little funny and you'll have to play to figure it out. On some, one tone control is wired to the bridge and the other to middle and neck.
I spent some time setting the heights of the pickups in my home-built strat to where I wanted them and I, for the most part, never mess with the tone knob.
There are a ton of other options available to you that you might consider if the basics don't work:
1. Replace the bridge pickup with a stacked humbucker, which will fatten out the bridge pickup tone some
2. Have a luthier route the body to take a full humbucker, which will fatten out the bridge pickup more
3. Rewire your guitar for more/different pickup tone combinations
4. Try different instruments
posted by plinth at 11:56 AM on April 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
We'll start with this diagram, which shows all the controls on your guitar.
Of the three pickups, the one closest to the bridge is going to get most of the higher harmonics that contribute to brightness. The closer you get towards the middle of the string, the fewer higher harmonics the pickup will see.
On either side of each pickup is a screw. Each pair raises or lowers the pickup with respect to the pickguard. The closer the pickup is to the string, the more signal the pickup will get. In essence, you can use this to adjust the prominence of the sound of the pickup.
There's a 3 or 5 way switch to mix combinations of pickups. See here for a great demonstration.
The tone control is a very simple low-pass filter based on a simple R/C pair (a resistor and a capacitor). A low pass filter lets low(er) frequencies pass through while cutting out the higher frequencies. If your guitar as two tone controls, they may be wired a little funny and you'll have to play to figure it out. On some, one tone control is wired to the bridge and the other to middle and neck.
I spent some time setting the heights of the pickups in my home-built strat to where I wanted them and I, for the most part, never mess with the tone knob.
There are a ton of other options available to you that you might consider if the basics don't work:
1. Replace the bridge pickup with a stacked humbucker, which will fatten out the bridge pickup tone some
2. Have a luthier route the body to take a full humbucker, which will fatten out the bridge pickup more
3. Rewire your guitar for more/different pickup tone combinations
4. Try different instruments
posted by plinth at 11:56 AM on April 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Let's take the player out of the equation and focus on the gear.
The first thing I'd do is ensure your amp isn't the source of the trouble. Plug your guitar into another amp, or plug another guitar into your amp. Does the problem follow the amp or the guitar?
If you suspect your guitar, try adjusting the pickup height. This article has links to guides for various electrics. You shouldn't need to have the volume knob cranked to get decent level out of your guitar.
posted by gox3r at 12:06 PM on April 30, 2015
The first thing I'd do is ensure your amp isn't the source of the trouble. Plug your guitar into another amp, or plug another guitar into your amp. Does the problem follow the amp or the guitar?
If you suspect your guitar, try adjusting the pickup height. This article has links to guides for various electrics. You shouldn't need to have the volume knob cranked to get decent level out of your guitar.
posted by gox3r at 12:06 PM on April 30, 2015
Response by poster: See here for a great demonstration.
Plinth, that video is kind of exactly what I'm after. Just a basic Strat sound. My guitar/amp combo does not sound at all like that.
Granted, he's way better than I am and he's playing with a different guitar and amp. But that sound is exactly what I think of when I think of a "what an electric guitar should sound like." That's all I want. I want my guitar to sound somewhere in the ballpark. Right now I'm not even in the ballpark. I don't know how to describe it. Warmth? Clear?
posted by bondcliff at 12:11 PM on April 30, 2015
Plinth, that video is kind of exactly what I'm after. Just a basic Strat sound. My guitar/amp combo does not sound at all like that.
Granted, he's way better than I am and he's playing with a different guitar and amp. But that sound is exactly what I think of when I think of a "what an electric guitar should sound like." That's all I want. I want my guitar to sound somewhere in the ballpark. Right now I'm not even in the ballpark. I don't know how to describe it. Warmth? Clear?
posted by bondcliff at 12:11 PM on April 30, 2015
I've finally started taking guitar lessons . . .
Bondcliff, we can't watch you play, hear your amp, or see your settings.
Why don't you take these concerns to your guitar teacher? Some one on the scene with ears?
Like, before you break out the soldering iron or go ordering Celestions, DiMarzios, and Elixers, eh?
posted by Herodios at 12:25 PM on April 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
Bondcliff, we can't watch you play, hear your amp, or see your settings.
Why don't you take these concerns to your guitar teacher? Some one on the scene with ears?
Like, before you break out the soldering iron or go ordering Celestions, DiMarzios, and Elixers, eh?
posted by Herodios at 12:25 PM on April 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you personally know any mindblowing players, you'll know that they can still blow your hair back on the crappiest of gear.
Reminds me of this video with Richard Thompson getting his sound out of random amps. (The sound quality on the video's not great, but the steps that RT goes through twiddling knobs on each amp are really worth a look.)
nthing those who say "start with your hands", then "start with strings" before messing about further.
posted by holgate at 12:36 PM on April 30, 2015
Reminds me of this video with Richard Thompson getting his sound out of random amps. (The sound quality on the video's not great, but the steps that RT goes through twiddling knobs on each amp are really worth a look.)
nthing those who say "start with your hands", then "start with strings" before messing about further.
posted by holgate at 12:36 PM on April 30, 2015
I am somewhat in the same boat, though I'm pretty happy with my guitar's tone. (This was me last year: "I'm just a caveman. Your modern guitar tech frightens and confuses me.") When I was Strat shopping last fall I encountered a lot of mentions of marginal-to-crummy pickups on MIM instruments, and I also encountered a lot of stellar reviews of the newer Squier CV line. I watched several comparison videos (Stock Mexican Fender Strat vs stock Chinese Squier CV Strat, clean signal through the same amp) and the difference was pretty noticeable even over marginally recorded web video; the MIMs all sounded kind of muddy by comparison, which steered me towards a Squier CV Strat.
I still don't really know anything about anything when it comes to achieving specific guitar tones, but in your place I would take my Strat to a trusted shop and:
posted by usonian at 12:48 PM on April 30, 2015
I still don't really know anything about anything when it comes to achieving specific guitar tones, but in your place I would take my Strat to a trusted shop and:
- Try it with a few different amps to see if the amp makes an appreciable difference.
- Try one of the store's MIM Strats through the same amps and see if the guitar makes an appreciable difference.
posted by usonian at 12:48 PM on April 30, 2015
Best answer: You're set now - you have two variables in this equation: your guitar and your amp.
Time to mess with your amp. In the Super Champ Manual on page 6, there is a description of all the controls and what they do.
You want to eliminate all the cruft.
Set the Voice to either 1, 15, or 16 which are all simple, clean settings. I'd use 1.
Set the FX select to maybe Reverb 1.
Set the Channel Select to Channel 1
Set the Treble and Bass to 5.
Set the Gain between 1 and 3.
Adjust the Volumes to something reasonable for your space.
With 1 and only 1 pickup (probably bridge), mess with Treble, bringing it up. This should make the sound much brighter and less mushy. Then balance it with the Bass.
If all you ever get is porridge, then you need to think about a different amp.
The way to solve this is take your guitar and amp to a shop and tell them that you're considering buying a new amp (which may be true although the probability may be very, very low).
Try your guitar in your amp then in a store's amp. Still sounds like someone put their entire days catch into the amp? Then it's your guitar. Ask to borrow a stock Strat and try again. Still porridge? Sorry, it might be you.
posted by plinth at 1:41 PM on April 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
Time to mess with your amp. In the Super Champ Manual on page 6, there is a description of all the controls and what they do.
You want to eliminate all the cruft.
Set the Voice to either 1, 15, or 16 which are all simple, clean settings. I'd use 1.
Set the FX select to maybe Reverb 1.
Set the Channel Select to Channel 1
Set the Treble and Bass to 5.
Set the Gain between 1 and 3.
Adjust the Volumes to something reasonable for your space.
With 1 and only 1 pickup (probably bridge), mess with Treble, bringing it up. This should make the sound much brighter and less mushy. Then balance it with the Bass.
If all you ever get is porridge, then you need to think about a different amp.
The way to solve this is take your guitar and amp to a shop and tell them that you're considering buying a new amp (which may be true although the probability may be very, very low).
Try your guitar in your amp then in a store's amp. Still sounds like someone put their entire days catch into the amp? Then it's your guitar. Ask to borrow a stock Strat and try again. Still porridge? Sorry, it might be you.
posted by plinth at 1:41 PM on April 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
Stock MIM Strat pickups still have that classic Strat sound, regardless of peoples' opinion of them. Assuming they are not defective (IMO, the chance of 2 going bad at the same time is extremely low), muddy neck and middle pickups could be due to them being wired incorrectly -- did you buy the guitar new or used? If it was used, it's very possible the previous owner(s) fiddled with it. You mentioned that it was setup professionally, and they should have caught the bad sound, but it's also possible to setup a guitar to feel nice without actually plugging it in for a listen, or at least listening to all the pickups.
Here's a Strat wiring diagram from Seymour Duncan. I would open up the guitar and make sure everything is connected properly and resolder and cold joints you come across. It's possible that a previous owner also put in different value pots and cap, so you may have to navigate those variables as well. Or you could take it to a new tech and see what they think about the sound, because it sounds like the pickups sound way, way off.
Other thoughts: The TS-9 really bumps up the mid-range, so it will make things sound wonky when you activate it. In my experience, modeling amps don't take pedals well, so this can compound the problem of things not sounding right. Should sound decent on the tube side, but you will need to adjust your amp's treble and bass settings to get it to sound the way you want.
posted by puritycontrol at 2:39 PM on April 30, 2015
Here's a Strat wiring diagram from Seymour Duncan. I would open up the guitar and make sure everything is connected properly and resolder and cold joints you come across. It's possible that a previous owner also put in different value pots and cap, so you may have to navigate those variables as well. Or you could take it to a new tech and see what they think about the sound, because it sounds like the pickups sound way, way off.
Other thoughts: The TS-9 really bumps up the mid-range, so it will make things sound wonky when you activate it. In my experience, modeling amps don't take pedals well, so this can compound the problem of things not sounding right. Should sound decent on the tube side, but you will need to adjust your amp's treble and bass settings to get it to sound the way you want.
posted by puritycontrol at 2:39 PM on April 30, 2015
1. New Strings.
2. Put the pickup selector all the way to the left (towards the neck), or one click back, *maybe* the middle
3. Reverb Effect all the way up
4. Bass in the center
5. Treble in the center
6. A Boss FBM-1 effect pedal with the presence about 8-9 o' clock (that will brighten everything up and add ring). The mid range about 8, the treble about 3-4 and the bass about 6-7
The trick here is that you want to push the mids and the bass really high and cut the treble and then use the "presence" knob to swing all the brightness back in. That mixed with the reverb on your amp should make long, ringy tones that come with your mids and bass and the sparkly highs from the presence set really high, without the treble turning into a knife in your ear.
I have a hot rod that I do this on (without the pedal, it's all on the amp) and it works beautifully. I think the boss pedal would give you some of that emulation.
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:50 PM on April 30, 2015
2. Put the pickup selector all the way to the left (towards the neck), or one click back, *maybe* the middle
3. Reverb Effect all the way up
4. Bass in the center
5. Treble in the center
6. A Boss FBM-1 effect pedal with the presence about 8-9 o' clock (that will brighten everything up and add ring). The mid range about 8, the treble about 3-4 and the bass about 6-7
The trick here is that you want to push the mids and the bass really high and cut the treble and then use the "presence" knob to swing all the brightness back in. That mixed with the reverb on your amp should make long, ringy tones that come with your mids and bass and the sparkly highs from the presence set really high, without the treble turning into a knife in your ear.
I have a hot rod that I do this on (without the pedal, it's all on the amp) and it works beautifully. I think the boss pedal would give you some of that emulation.
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:50 PM on April 30, 2015
One more thing, pick and strum your strings SOFTLY. Learn how to hold chords, Strumming and picking technique (HINT: YOU ARE PROBABLY PLAYING TOO STRONGLY) has a huge impact on tone. Strum like a butterfly. Light, go easy on it...
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:56 PM on April 30, 2015
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:56 PM on April 30, 2015
A note regarding the suggestion to adjust your pickups higher: if you lift your pickups too much, the response will be uneven, and higher up the neck will sound louder than lower down. The Pretenders wrote a song about this.
posted by ovvl at 6:33 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 6:33 PM on April 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe it's the room/rug/hardwood, I dunno.
One more thought connected to this - is your amp on the floor? If it is, put it up on a chair or a stool. One, because the low end (bass tones) coming out of your amp can couple with the floor, making your amp (even a little combo like yours) sound boomy or muddy, and two, high tones have less energy and are more directional, so when your amp's on the floor the higher frequencies aren't reaching your ears with the same strength as the bass frequencies. Having the amp closer to your ears will give you a better idea of what your amp "really" sounds like. I mostly play a little Peavey Classic 20 these days, and I always put it up on a stool or a road case or something so it's at least waist height.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:26 PM on April 30, 2015
One more thought connected to this - is your amp on the floor? If it is, put it up on a chair or a stool. One, because the low end (bass tones) coming out of your amp can couple with the floor, making your amp (even a little combo like yours) sound boomy or muddy, and two, high tones have less energy and are more directional, so when your amp's on the floor the higher frequencies aren't reaching your ears with the same strength as the bass frequencies. Having the amp closer to your ears will give you a better idea of what your amp "really" sounds like. I mostly play a little Peavey Classic 20 these days, and I always put it up on a stool or a road case or something so it's at least waist height.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:26 PM on April 30, 2015
If adding the dirt pedal still makes it sound way too muddy, than it may very well be the amp and not the guitar, since you should be hearing some of the treble from the crunch with the pedal engaged.
Can you post a short video of you playing so that we can hear what's going on?
Have you tried starting with your bass control all the way down and the treble control all the way up, and adjust from there?
It sounds like you know a thing or two about a thing or two, so without being able to hear what you're hearing, I can't think of much else to suggest.
posted by markblasco at 10:05 PM on April 30, 2015
Can you post a short video of you playing so that we can hear what's going on?
Have you tried starting with your bass control all the way down and the treble control all the way up, and adjust from there?
It sounds like you know a thing or two about a thing or two, so without being able to hear what you're hearing, I can't think of much else to suggest.
posted by markblasco at 10:05 PM on April 30, 2015
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone for the tips.
Please trust me when I say I know it's not a question of technique, stings, picks, or anything like that.
Last night I fiddled with things and eventually got something I'm happier with. I had been trying to use channel 1 on the amp, which is the straight tube amp. That never sounded good to me at all. I switched over the the amp models and found one I like (Voice 4, for those playing at home), added a bit more reverb and adjusted some knobs. It's still not my ideal sound, but does anyone ever get their ideal sound?
posted by bondcliff at 6:27 AM on May 1, 2015
Please trust me when I say I know it's not a question of technique, stings, picks, or anything like that.
Last night I fiddled with things and eventually got something I'm happier with. I had been trying to use channel 1 on the amp, which is the straight tube amp. That never sounded good to me at all. I switched over the the amp models and found one I like (Voice 4, for those playing at home), added a bit more reverb and adjusted some knobs. It's still not my ideal sound, but does anyone ever get their ideal sound?
posted by bondcliff at 6:27 AM on May 1, 2015
Strings have been replaced recently and other than that fresh string sound you get for the first couple of hours
changing the strings doesn't make that much of a difference.
And I am here again to say that one of the secrets of really great guitar tone, for most players, is that your strings are never more than a few hours old. When you hear a professional guitarist on a record or on stage, in most cases you are hearing fresh strings the guitar tech put on the instrument that afternoon. When I was working as a guitarist, I changed my strings before every single paid gig unless time prevented it. It was much a part of setting up and a cost of doing business as a sound check. Now of course that's financially unrealistic for your practice setup, but even so, I play about an hour a day these days, primarily across two main guitars, and I change their strings every two weeks at the outside (and that's Elixirs, which are both pricey and supposed to endure longer than that -- I still consider them long lasting). Those "first couple of hours" are the useful life of the strings in terms of tone; a few more hours in terms of intonation. I notice my Elixirs, on a Taylor 414ce acoustic and the aforementioned Mexi-Tele, start to lose intonational precision after about two weeks of daily playing. You can stretch that by keeping your hands and strings very clean (with rubbing alcohol on the strings, but be careful of your wood, I just lightly soak a cotton ball and run it up and down the string.) And it's a little dependent on playing style. Us fingerstyle guys go through strings faster (but we break them less.)
Also, it's partly psychological. I find I'll practice much longer on fresher strings because I like the tone so much.
I don't think dead strings explain your tone problems. But be aware that those first couple of hours on a new set of strings, for most players in most styles, will give you the best tone your rig is capable of producing.
PS -- this was an awesome AskMe thread, fun to learn who the Mefi guitarists are, lots of great advice that go beyond the OP's question, best of!
posted by spitbull at 6:34 AM on May 1, 2015
changing the strings doesn't make that much of a difference.
And I am here again to say that one of the secrets of really great guitar tone, for most players, is that your strings are never more than a few hours old. When you hear a professional guitarist on a record or on stage, in most cases you are hearing fresh strings the guitar tech put on the instrument that afternoon. When I was working as a guitarist, I changed my strings before every single paid gig unless time prevented it. It was much a part of setting up and a cost of doing business as a sound check. Now of course that's financially unrealistic for your practice setup, but even so, I play about an hour a day these days, primarily across two main guitars, and I change their strings every two weeks at the outside (and that's Elixirs, which are both pricey and supposed to endure longer than that -- I still consider them long lasting). Those "first couple of hours" are the useful life of the strings in terms of tone; a few more hours in terms of intonation. I notice my Elixirs, on a Taylor 414ce acoustic and the aforementioned Mexi-Tele, start to lose intonational precision after about two weeks of daily playing. You can stretch that by keeping your hands and strings very clean (with rubbing alcohol on the strings, but be careful of your wood, I just lightly soak a cotton ball and run it up and down the string.) And it's a little dependent on playing style. Us fingerstyle guys go through strings faster (but we break them less.)
Also, it's partly psychological. I find I'll practice much longer on fresher strings because I like the tone so much.
I don't think dead strings explain your tone problems. But be aware that those first couple of hours on a new set of strings, for most players in most styles, will give you the best tone your rig is capable of producing.
PS -- this was an awesome AskMe thread, fun to learn who the Mefi guitarists are, lots of great advice that go beyond the OP's question, best of!
posted by spitbull at 6:34 AM on May 1, 2015
> It's still not my ideal sound, but does anyone ever get their ideal sound?
Actually...yes, it is possible to get your ideal sound, or at least something you are really quite happy with. It helps to know what you want, and it helps even more to understand how the different elements (amp settings + guitar settings + component choices) work together to create those tones.
Glad you found something that works for you! Don't give up on the tube-only side of your Super Champ, though. Treat it as a learning exercise and keep plugging away at it.
posted by mosk at 11:32 AM on May 1, 2015
Actually...yes, it is possible to get your ideal sound, or at least something you are really quite happy with. It helps to know what you want, and it helps even more to understand how the different elements (amp settings + guitar settings + component choices) work together to create those tones.
Glad you found something that works for you! Don't give up on the tube-only side of your Super Champ, though. Treat it as a learning exercise and keep plugging away at it.
posted by mosk at 11:32 AM on May 1, 2015
I really like Plinth's advice above. If you're willing to keep experimenting, use the amp mod 15 (jazz setting) with neutral eq to start (e.g. treble and bass both at 5). Put the gain and volume around 5 as well (less gain for cleaner tone, less volume for quieter sound). Use one of the "in-between" slots on the pickup selector (neck-middle or middle-bridge), with the guitar tone all the way up (or slightly rolled off) and guitar volume 100%. What you're going for is a nice, mellow, not very bright (but not muddy either) jazzy kind of tone.
Now plug in the TS-9, and put the drive at 80% and the tone at 20%, and adjust the level so that it's equal loudness with the pedal on or off. If it's too loud at this point, turn the volume on the amp down. The overdrive will give you a nice sustain, and you should get a smooth mellow buzz akin to Trey Anastasio imitating Carlos Santana.
Good luck!
posted by grog at 6:48 PM on May 1, 2015
Now plug in the TS-9, and put the drive at 80% and the tone at 20%, and adjust the level so that it's equal loudness with the pedal on or off. If it's too loud at this point, turn the volume on the amp down. The overdrive will give you a nice sustain, and you should get a smooth mellow buzz akin to Trey Anastasio imitating Carlos Santana.
Good luck!
posted by grog at 6:48 PM on May 1, 2015
I had been trying to use channel 1 on the amp, which is the straight tube amp. That never sounded good to me at all. I switched over the the amp models and found one I like (Voice 4, for those playing at home)
Cool, glad it's working better for you now.
Just to sort of add to the knowledge base regarding your amp, after taking a look at the manual and the schematic (pdf link);
You have three tubes in the amp, 2 6V6's and a 12AX7. The 6V6's operate as a pair, and they are your power tubes - they bump the signal level (voltage) up high enough to actually move the speaker. The 12AX7 is directly before the 6V6's, and if I'm reading the schematic right, it serves as a phase inverter/splitter (a bit of necessary electronics in order to use a pair of output tubes) and possibly as another bit of signal bump as a median step up in between your preamp section and your power tubes. IOW, your amp is actually always a tube amp, or at least half a tube amp; you have power tubes but not preamp tubes.
As near as I can tell, both from the schematic & poking around online, the sound of the entire input/preamp section of the amp is produced by the DSP (digital signal processor) - IOW, it's all modeling. Channel One is supposed to be a model of the preamp tone you would expect from an all-tube version of the amp, then Channel Two gives you a variety of options for modeling different amps, many of these options are supposed to sound like Marshall or Vox or other companies' amps. I'm guessing that Fender built in the channel-switching capabilities because lots of players expect one these days, and a player can flip between two different sounds easily with a footswitch. (This can be really useful live, and a 15-watt amp is loud enough to gig with in a lot of situations.)
Interestingly enough, the model you like better (Voice 4) seems to be a variation of the Channel One model; both are "clean Blackface." ("Blackface" generally refers to the sound of Fender amps made from about '64 to '67 - this is kind of the "classic Fender" sound, and a lot of their current all-tube offerings seem to be re-issues of these amps.) Which I guess just goes to show that "good tone" can depend on some fairly subtle variations or tweaks.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:44 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Cool, glad it's working better for you now.
Just to sort of add to the knowledge base regarding your amp, after taking a look at the manual and the schematic (pdf link);
You have three tubes in the amp, 2 6V6's and a 12AX7. The 6V6's operate as a pair, and they are your power tubes - they bump the signal level (voltage) up high enough to actually move the speaker. The 12AX7 is directly before the 6V6's, and if I'm reading the schematic right, it serves as a phase inverter/splitter (a bit of necessary electronics in order to use a pair of output tubes) and possibly as another bit of signal bump as a median step up in between your preamp section and your power tubes. IOW, your amp is actually always a tube amp, or at least half a tube amp; you have power tubes but not preamp tubes.
As near as I can tell, both from the schematic & poking around online, the sound of the entire input/preamp section of the amp is produced by the DSP (digital signal processor) - IOW, it's all modeling. Channel One is supposed to be a model of the preamp tone you would expect from an all-tube version of the amp, then Channel Two gives you a variety of options for modeling different amps, many of these options are supposed to sound like Marshall or Vox or other companies' amps. I'm guessing that Fender built in the channel-switching capabilities because lots of players expect one these days, and a player can flip between two different sounds easily with a footswitch. (This can be really useful live, and a 15-watt amp is loud enough to gig with in a lot of situations.)
Interestingly enough, the model you like better (Voice 4) seems to be a variation of the Channel One model; both are "clean Blackface." ("Blackface" generally refers to the sound of Fender amps made from about '64 to '67 - this is kind of the "classic Fender" sound, and a lot of their current all-tube offerings seem to be re-issues of these amps.) Which I guess just goes to show that "good tone" can depend on some fairly subtle variations or tweaks.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:44 AM on May 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Guyatone ST-2 COMPRESSOR/SUSTAINER pedal. Some reverb, amp or pedal. The tone knob twiddles suggested above. You WILL walk again, as God is my witness. :)
posted by Chitownfats at 5:41 PM on January 27, 2016
posted by Chitownfats at 5:41 PM on January 27, 2016
This thread is closed to new comments.
If I remember correctly, there are separate tone knobs for each pickup. So the knob closest to you is volume, the middle one is the neck pickup tone knob, and the knob farthest from you is the bridge pickup tone knob. Right? Yours may be wired like a Squier though, which I think has a different setup where maybe the bridge pickup's tone can't be controlled....
But on your overall question I'm with you--I don't know ess about "tone" other than being able generally to tell what type of guitar someone's playing when I hear a song. Getting wildly different tones out of the same guitar though is generally too fine a distinction for my ear--a Strat will sound like a Strat, a Tele like a Tele, an SG like an SG, etc.
posted by resurrexit at 9:16 AM on April 30, 2015