Two parts woo, one part science.

November 22, 2014 1:30 PM

Crunchy parents and their untraditional opinions make me worry for the safety of my kid and theirs. Could my kid's health be in danger? How do I let go of my judgement and make friends?

I have a niche hobby (babywearing). This hobby tends to attract a crunchy crowd. My family is not very crunchy (we joke we're lightly toasted), and some of the extreme practices of the crunchy crowd have me worried for the health of my kid and for my own peace of mind.

The crunchy crowd loves their essential oils, and use them as substitutes for traditional medicine. A good portion are anti-vaccination. A small group are completely anti-doctor, with several children having never been to a doctor in their lives.

As an example, a child was just diagnosed with whooping cough, so now everyone is diffusing thieves oil to avoid getting it and the child is taking garlic(?) to get rid of the cough (Thankfully I have never met this child in person). The idea of taking the child to a pediatrician hasn't been mentioned, but several people are laughing at the effectiveness of the whooping cough vaccine in adults.

I want to cut ties with this group, but it would severely limit the people I could share my hobby with. Part of me wants to stay and be a voice of reason... but I also don't want to hurt my family's well being.

I haven't said anything to anyone about my disagreement, as I'm not even sure if anyone would listen. It's hard seeing all this nonsense being repeated over and over. I would feel terrible if a child was seriously hurt and I hadn't done something to at least try and get them to a doctor.

At the same time: not my kid not my problem. I would hate for someone to swoop in and lecture me that I'm raising my kid wrong, so I don't want to do that to someone else.


I guess my questions boil down to this:
1. Is being around unvaccinated children dangerous to my fully vaccinated child?
2. How do I reconcile my disgust at the misinformation being spread with my desire to cultivate friendships within the group?
3. Is there a way to politely present a different point of view without stepping on toes?

posted by peasandcarrots to Human Relations (35 answers total)

#1 - IDK why people who choose to vaccinate bring this up if vaccination is so fabulous. Really. (I vaccinate. And I understand the folks who do not.)

#2 - These people are not for you, and you need to stop trying to be their friends since you don't respect their core values.

#3 - Not enough data to answer. Judging by your use of the word "disgust" as you describe these people, I think not.
posted by jbenben at 1:40 PM on November 22, 2014 [5 favorites]

You don't have to be friends with them. I'd be surprised if putting your baby in a sling is still such an unheard-of thing to do nowadays in more mainstream circles. Like are you imagining you can't be friends with normal parents because they don't believe in baby slings? That just seems really unlikely to me.

You're also free to be friends with them and say whatever you want as long as it's not a personal attack.
posted by bleep at 1:46 PM on November 22, 2014 [24 favorites]

There may be others in the group who feel the same way you do and may not want to mention anything for the same reasons as you. If you were to say something, could it be along the lines of: "I'm worried for your kids (who were exposed to the whooping cough kids) - and that they are getting "Thieves" essential oils when there is no research to demonstrate it's effectiveness. Please consider seeing a doctor or keeping your kid away from the whooping cough child." If you come from a place of concern it may go over better.

As for your child, my understanding is that s/he should be fine, though the vaccination is not 100% in all people. So keep an eye out for symptoms and maybe stay away from really little babies and the elderly for a while to be sure.

Also, could you start a baby wearing subgroup for vaccinated kids? This sounds weird, but my online parents group just changed all their outings to 'vaccinated kids only' for the reasons you describe. And I'm in one of the largest anti-vacc-er cities in the country.
posted by Toddles at 1:47 PM on November 22, 2014 [6 favorites]

Best answer: If the only reason you want to stay in this group of people is to "be the voice of reason" you will very quickly be shunned from the group anyway. Absolutely nothing is more personal and deeply held than the choice people make in their parenting. Your criticisms, however phrased and however warranted, are unsolicited and unwelcome and will be absolutely, roundly rejected.

Make other friends. Wearing your baby is hardly a fringe identifier these days.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:56 PM on November 22, 2014 [19 favorites]

As Toddles mentioned, the problem is that the vaccines are not 100% effective. So unless you go back to your own pediatrician and get titers (and your doctor as well! Because believe me, you don't want whooping cough) you're not necessarily safe even if you're vaccinated - I mean, you're safe enough to go about everyday life, but not safe enough to knowingly expose yourself to a disease without being sure you're protected. I honestly would not be able to hang with this group knowing their kids are completely unvaccinated and not receiving medical care. It's ethically wrong to me and I'd be too upset by it. You'll have to decide for yourself where you draw the line. I'm a doctor so I do tend to take rejection of science and medicine a little personally.

As for your other questions, I would definitely have no compunction about saying that I'm worried about their child not getting medical help, since whooping cough can kill. I doubt it will make a difference, but I would not feel right about staying silent in such a situation.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 2:00 PM on November 22, 2014 [27 favorites]

By the way, the phenomenon that makes it generally safe for a few people out there to be unvaccinated or for the vaccine not to be 100% effective is the infamous "herd immunity" - if too many people around you aren't vaccinated, herd immunity is no longer in effect. This is the problem in your situation.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 2:03 PM on November 22, 2014 [23 favorites]

1. yes the vaccine could be ineffective for your kid. You meet Whooping Cough kid, get germs on you, come home and hug kid, and share those germs with her.

2. my mother-in-law stridently believes in homeopathy and I stridently do not. when she offers homeopathic remedies to me i say "thanks for thinking of me!" and toss it. If she wants to discuss it I say "Hmm that's interesting, I see it differently," then change the subject.

3. Not in my experience. Folks who care about fringe stuff will have lots of data to back up their claims-- numbers and percents and stats. That data falls apart under the barest scrutiny. Then the folks feel bad because they feel stupid because they didn't read the data right. Then they hate you.
posted by holyrood at 2:13 PM on November 22, 2014 [4 favorites]

Racing pet hamsters is a niche hobby. wearing a baby in a sling is not. Find some new friends who share your values- values that don't include shunning science and putting children's health at risk.
posted by emd3737 at 2:15 PM on November 22, 2014 [54 favorites]

I've come to the conclusion that parenting beliefs are a lot like religion, and unless your friends explicitly ask for your opinion they probably aren't interested in it. Nobody likes to feel like they are being criticized, and they aren't going to listen to your 'Voice of Reason'. The issue with the sick child is a tough one, and if I felt like the child was truly in danger I might have to say something strong encouraging a doctor's visit, knowing that it might not do any good and I would probably lose that friendship.

I think if you are tempted to cut ties that you should - you can be friendly, participate in babywearing meetups, etc. but not be close friends. I've realized that given how little time I have these days, I'd rather not be hanging out with people I don't see myself having a long term relationship with, kwim?
posted by snowymorninblues at 2:31 PM on November 22, 2014

#1 - IDK why people who choose to vaccinate bring this up if vaccination is so fabulous.

Like everyone else has said, vaccination IS so fabulous, but it's not 100% effective. My daughter is fully vaccinated, but I do not knowingly expose her to unvaccinated children just in case she's one of the unlucky ones who doesn't develop immunity to nasty stuff like measles and pertussis.

If I were you, I wouldn't hang around these people or let my kid near them, or their children. You seem to know that these people are insane - and yes, treating pertussis without the supervision of a doctor is insane. You don't respect their beliefs because their beliefs are destructive and dangerous, not because they're a harmless difference of opinion. You can't actually be a voice of reason, either. Once you start with that, they'll just shun you from the group anyway.

I also agree that babywearing is not all that niche. Maybe it depends on where you are, but most mothers in my friends group have done babywearing and only one of them is an anti-vaxxer. I don't do babywearing, but it wouldn't occur to me that a babywearing person and I could not talk about babywearing.

I don't think that non-babywearers would be liable to judge you for babywearing (although I have no idea why they would anyway?) - but your current hobby group might viciously judge you if they learned you think the way you do. While they're potentially spreading awful diseases at the same time. Would you rather wait for them to learn that you're pro-science and them group-judge you (while also raising your family's risk of contracting preventable illnesses) - or go befriend people who don't have a pre-formed exclusionary parenting ideology that you always have to dodge?
posted by Coatlicue at 2:38 PM on November 22, 2014 [7 favorites]

I read the whole babywearing Wikipedia page, waiting for the thing that would make it "niche" and not "totally normal" and I didn't find it. Go find some friends who are as lightly toasted as you are.
posted by Rock Steady at 2:51 PM on November 22, 2014 [6 favorites]

Herd immunity means a vaccination program against, say, pertussis, is close to 100% effective when you are in a community which is close to 100% vaccinated.

Part of me wants to stay and be a voice of reason... but I also don't want to hurt my family's well being.

Sadly, these people probably won't listen to you and your family's well-being is way more important.
posted by grouse at 2:52 PM on November 22, 2014 [3 favorites]

I think the real question is, why do you think that wearing your baby is a hobby that you can only share with other babywearers? I put a Baby Bjorn on when it's a convenient way to carry my baby; it's not a pastime and it's not unique. Find friends who share your values.
posted by amro at 2:58 PM on November 22, 2014 [25 favorites]

I'm confused by your categorization of babywearing as a niche hobby. I wore my kids 23 years ago. It wasn't crunchy back then.

Anyway, I'm sure you realize that it's never a good idea to correct anyone's parenting choices. All you can do is decide what matters to you and live by that. I wasn't a TV mom, but when my kids used to go to friend's houses and they watched TV, I didn't contact the other parents to ask them to turn it off. Not my house, not my rules.

However, non-immunized kids being near your kid is not quite the same thing.

Is being around unvaccinated children dangerous to my fully vaccinated child?

Yes. I would keep my own kids away from unimmunized kids. There are people out there who wear their kids and also get immunizations and see doctors. Find those people.
posted by kinetic at 3:01 PM on November 22, 2014 [8 favorites]

Did you say a child had whooping cough that is not being treated? Child protective services, stat.

Please do find news friends. Babyhaving is a great icebreaker and common thing to talk about.
posted by Dashy at 3:03 PM on November 22, 2014 [19 favorites]

Whooping cough is no joke, especially for babies. It seems there may be some evidence that vaccinated people can still transmit the disease even if they don't actively have the disease.
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cold-flu/whooping-cough-vaccine-may-not-halt-spread-illness-f2D11655363

Might be worth asking your doctor what kind of risk you are exposing yourself and your child to and if there is a possibility you yourself could transmit the disease even if you don't actively have it.

For myself, I don't go to work when I am sick. I would not risk pertussis for my family and anyone else I come in contact with.
posted by littlewater at 3:08 PM on November 22, 2014

Like others I'm confused why this is a hobby. Find new baby friends.
posted by k8t at 3:21 PM on November 22, 2014 [3 favorites]

I would not let my child (if I had a child) near unvaccinated children, especially unvaccinated children whose parents don't seek medical care for their sick children. And I would not go near those children or their parents, in order to avoid carrying those diseases to my child.

If this is on online-only group, then I think gentle reminders that modern medicine has actual solutions for these problems and generally ignoring the stuff you don't agree with could work, at least for a while, though they're likely to get annoyed with you. If these are people you see in person, I would quite literally cross the street in order to avoid them and their children.
posted by jaguar at 3:27 PM on November 22, 2014 [1 favorite]

Best answer: I put a Baby Bjorn on when it's a convenient way to carry my baby; it's not a pastime and it's not unique.

I bet you money that this isn't the kind of babywearing OP isn't talking about, and, in fact, her friends would really look down on those who wear "crotch danglers" and not didys and girasols. It's a specialist community with a whole bunch of acronyms, and a high degree of specialized knowledge not unlike the cloth diapering community (as opposed to just those who use cloth diapers).

(It's also really expensive! Which is why I personally try to stay away from various babywearing fora.)

Anyway, I hear you on this. I am to the left of crunchy, had a homebirth, do some pretty attachment parenty things like EBF and bedshare, and I've enjoyed connecting with other women who also do these things. This has meant connecting with other moms who are much more pro alternative medicine than I am. Then again, I've been taking elderberry extract for a recent cold and my daughter is on the Sears vaccination schedule because I had febrile seizures and I wanted to be able to more carefully monitor her for specific vaccine reactions (but then, everyone has their special snowflake "reasons," right?). I suspect I am more woo than most people posting here, and probably more woo than you are.

And yet sometimes women I know will go on about rolfing, CST, or homeopathy and it feels very weird. I know these practices are ineffective and some are even dangerous and yet they ignore that. Heck, this happened even before kids. My (not at all crunchy) mother loves her chiropractor. My sister is all about snorting colloidal silver. So even though I think amber teething necklaces are ridiculous and almost certainly choking hazards, it's nothing new, really, or even just limited to mothers.

What I've ultimately decided to do is to stay friends with people who I really like and connect with, and distance myself from people I don't connect with. I'm sure you're not equally close to all of these babywearing mamas. I also suspect that some of these mothers feel similarly to you. I, personally, wouldn't write off the entire population of babywearing mothers if you think you'd lose something in the process.

My personal stance on disease risk generally is that I ask other mom friends to let me know if their children are sick and try to do the same so we can cancel plans if need be, which is just good mom etiquette. If a mom can't do that, then I won't be friends with her. But like I said, I am to the left of this issue from most mefites.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:29 PM on November 22, 2014 [12 favorites]

I don't think babywearing is a hobby. I did this in the early 00's as a practical parenting technique. I think it was perceived as a little outlier-y in that time and place (Wichita, KS - most parents carted kids around in infant carseats and then strollers), but not dramatically so.

I "wore" my baby both out in public as a means of transporting her (and really felt pretty strongly that it was better for both me and her than lugging her around at knee-level in a baby carrier), and at home as a means of having some hands free.

I also took my kid to the doctor and vaccinated her because I'm not a damn idiot. To actually answer your questions:

1) potentially yes
2) I don't know why you want to cultivate friendships with this group. Cultivate friendships with a group of moms who aren't acting like damn idiots, and embrace being on the crunchier end of the group.
3) Why bother? I would just fade out, but if you wanted to make an impression, you could let people know you're disengaging because you disagree with the anti-scientific posture of many of the group's members and feel it has the potential to be damaging to your child.
posted by jeoc at 3:37 PM on November 22, 2014 [2 favorites]

Best answer: Seconding PhoB: I'm guessing this is more along the lines of collecting handcrafted designer wraps and learning twelve different carries and less along the lines of "oh yeah, I have an Ergo." It's a thing.

Anyway, yes, cut ties with this group, for the sake of your family's health. If I were you, I'd gently but firmly explain "I'm sorry, but my family is my first priority, and I can't expose them to diseases like whooping cough. I cannot in good conscience spend time with a group of parents who choose not to vaccinate their children: it's a health hazard and a belief I do not endorse." But, to be honest, they've probably made up their minds and there's nothing you can do to change them.

If you want to geek out about babywearing with folks already in the know, finding an online community or two could scratch the itch. You could also find a few potential converts in the "yeah I have an Ergo" crowd, so seek out some more generalized parent groups and see if you find anyone who might share your interest.
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:11 PM on November 22, 2014 [9 favorites]

Best answer: There are definitely on-line communities of parents who are gently doctrinaire about certain 'crunchy'-identified things, like babywearing, and also disgusted with the...types you describe. I don't think there is a good way for you to embrace your current circles.

When I read "so now everyone is diffusing thieves oil" I cringed; I think one is hearing more about "oils" now because there are MLM pyramid scheme things to sell them. Sure enough, Google says "Thieves" is not just crap crap but MLM crap. You are not going to be the voice of reason in that crowd. They paid CAD$50 for 15mL of crap...!

I had nine different slings and carriers and I get that one can enjoy getting carried (har har) away there. But just ditch these people. Gently, because some of them will be exhausted people who used to be sane and who will be sane again when their kids are older and life slows down. But right now they are fruit loops, and you are not a good friend to them and can't be, and that's fine. And there are loads of pro-vaccine babywearers in 2014. You just need a different community of sling nuts.
posted by kmennie at 4:12 PM on November 22, 2014 [5 favorites]

I sincerely hope that since the child has not been seen by a pediatrician it is just a nasty cough and not actually pertussis. Pertussis can be deadly and I would be strongly inclined to call CPS if I suspected that the child was indeed infected and going untreated.

Call me reactionary, but there is no "hobby" in the world that would make me knowingly put my daughter at risk of contracting whooping cough et al.
posted by lydhre at 4:12 PM on November 22, 2014 [12 favorites]

I disagree that it is dangerous for your kid to be around unvaccinated kids. I don't think that's a good risk assessment. The odds that someone in the group would be infected with a vaccine preventable disease, that your child's vaccination would be ineffective, and that she would contract and have serious negative side effects from the disease are very low; certainly much lower than the risk of you getting in a car accident as you drive to these groups. Some people like to minimize risks as much as possible, and to each their own, but if you do the math you might feel more comfortable.

(Whether you want to hang out with these folks is another issue, and your call.)
posted by metasarah at 6:10 PM on November 22, 2014

Response by poster: (The babywearing wasn't exactly the point of the question, but yes these are the wraps and carriers that are specially made and rather expensive. In my area of the country they're not common.)

Thank you everyone for your answers. I've marked several best answers but if anyone would like to provide additional thoughts I would be glad to read them.
posted by peasandcarrots at 6:10 PM on November 22, 2014

The odds that someone in the group would be infected with a vaccine preventable disease, that your child's vaccination would be ineffective, and that she would contract and have serious negative side effects from the disease are very low

One of the children in the group has pertussis. And is being treated with garlic. The other children in the group are not vaccinated. This is now a very risky group of children.
posted by jaguar at 6:21 PM on November 22, 2014 [18 favorites]

Best answer: Yeah, dropping in because pertussis is a big deal--though if these folks are really as doctor-averse as you say, they probably don't have an actual diagnosis. In my experience, this is one of the way crunchy communities reinforce their belief that the diseases they refuse to vaccinate against are overhyped risks: someone's kid gets (for example) fifth disease, they treat it with natural medicine and maybe pass it around to their friends' kids, and suddenly a whole crunchy clique is convinced that their unvaccinated offspring had measles and it wasn't the boogeyman mainstream medicine made it out to be. (I believe exactly this happened at the food co-op I worked for in my 20s.)

But, if it truly is pertussis, it is a big deal. Worse, I suspect that many adults are disinclined to appreciate the gravity of the situation because it's relatively uncommon these days (going from 175k/year to a low of 1k/year in the late 70s and early 80s, when today's new parents were kids) and adult infections are unpleasant but ultimately not all that dangerous. However, pertussis kills children--these things are hard to compare, but it's probably as dangerous as (real) measles, especially for very young children.
posted by pullayup at 6:22 PM on November 22, 2014 [3 favorites]

Fellow babywearer here. Wraps FTW. I know the crowd you're talking about, have hung out around them for a few years. I have similar, not-entirely-crunchy and usually pro-science views. No idea how 'dangerous' hanging around crunchy parents is - have never thought of it that way - but here's how I handle the difference in opinion:
- I come out as pro-vaxx when it gets discussed, yet I also acknowledge that it should be a choice parents make themselves, and that medical professionals don't always do a great job of making parents trust them, eg by dismissing every and all vaxx concerns as 'anti-science'. Both of these are my actual beliefs. Eg I try to find overlaps in our belief systems
-I find these groups usually have one or two complete woo woo loons who dominate discussion. Stay away from them (d'oh!)
-over time, I've found several people who are on my wavelength. It's like every subculture...there's a lot of variety within it. Babywearing is a hobby that -in my experience- brings together a diverse bunch of people, you will find your handful of friends and leave the rest behind.
posted by The Toad at 7:17 PM on November 22, 2014 [1 favorite]

Best answer: I have a slightly different answer - one of my (former) best friends is crunchy like whoa. She did the home birth, the whole nine yards. She was 100% anti-vax. When her daughter was two, we were out to lunch and Friend was chattering happily about how Daughter got whooping cough, but came out of it ok, and how so far everything was working well for her "natural vaccination" plan. I couldn't help it, I said, "Huh". She said, "Huh, what?" I said, "Huh. Well, I'm glad Daughter is now immune to pertussis. What's your plan for polio?"

Her kids are vaccinated now, but we're really not that close anymore. Am I glad I said something? Yes. Am I glad her kids are vaccinated now? Yes. Do I miss my friend? Yep.
posted by RogueTech at 8:02 PM on November 22, 2014 [13 favorites]

I don't think babywearing is weird enough that you can reasonably only associate with or be accepted by other babywearers. Just go make friends with reasonable, science-minded folks and wear your baby even if they don't personally do that.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:32 PM on November 22, 2014

You likely need a parenting community, and even though these guys are fringe, they're parents. Look hard for another parenting community that is more accepting of some evidence-based activity, like vaccination. You're likely to stay with a community through your child's toddlerhood and beyond; do you want to hang out with these folks? The library will have babytime - it's great for Moms, there may be a nursing support group, maybe there are some babywearers who aren't so fringe.

Or try being yourself a bit more among the group. Not getting medical care for a child with whooping cough is irresponsible and dangerous, but maybe there are others in the group who are not so extreme. Only 1 way to find out. Be honest about preferring vaccination, accepting Western medicine, etc.
posted by theora55 at 7:24 AM on November 23, 2014

Um, pertussis kills kids - even rich, white kids with access to health care. I'd be very very concerned if someone I knew even vaguely wasn't getting actual medical care for a kid with pertussis. I'd, like, call an authority. For real.
posted by tristeza at 10:12 AM on November 23, 2014 [4 favorites]

When I was a new Mommy Goddess, I was a crunchy mega woo babywearing anti-vax nightmare. I'm still generally anti-vax, but. Big but. Huge but.

I had pertussis last year. And I was fully vaccinated as a child. I can't even imagine what kind of merry hell it would be having it as a child. I had mega complications, some of which I'm still dealing with, over a year later. On top of that, I have asthma. You wanna talk scary? Can't inhale, can only cough to exhale, start vomiting from coughing so hard, smack your head on the toilet bowl, and knock yourself out.

This year, I got a flu shot on the advice of my PCP and my pulmonologist. They both reminded me about the can't inhale, can only cough to exhale, etc. nightmare. Then, while having a nasty flareup of the aforementioned pertussis complications, I came down with bilateral aspiration pneumonia. Had to spend a week in the hospital on oxygen. Got the pneumonia vaccine before I checked out, to prevent having to do that again.

I'm a big proponent of not medicating where medication isn't necessary. But I'm also a big believer in common freaking sense.
posted by The Almighty Mommy Goddess at 3:41 PM on November 23, 2014

Personally, I would not be able to be around babies I knew were being medically neglected, like not given antibiotics for bad ear infections or exposed to pertussis. It's not so much that I would fear for my own health or my own child's, but I just could not be around that kind of behavior and be friends with those kinds of parents.

That said, I think one approach you could take that might work is just being open about your own beliefs. Instead of trying to educate people about vaccinations or get in conflicts with them, when the subject comes up state "I vaccinate and I personally don't think thieves oil works." This may have the effect of breaking the peer-pressure, collective delusion in the group, and might help some people who are doubting the dogma. There was recently a study indicating that trying to argue with anti-vaxxers just made them more anti. The better route might just be letting them know that not everyone in your group believes the same thing, and that there are other options.
posted by yarly at 6:20 AM on November 24, 2014

There are Facebook groups for us Crunchy Skeptics that you can use to connect online and find local friends. If you want to message me, I can send you links. The main one is called Crunchy Skeptics.
posted by PrimateFan at 9:57 AM on November 24, 2014