Will dry ice "smoke" damage equipment/surfaces in enclosed space?
August 23, 2013 7:26 AM Subscribe
Dry ice question. I need to keep some dog food frozen for a week-long road trip. I can use dry ice, that's not a problem, but I don't want to have the cooler in the car because the smell of the "smoke" bothers me (even with the windows cracked, etc.). I'll have my pop-up A-frame camper with me so I can keep it in there, but it will be folded down and therefore a totally enclosed, unventilated space. The standard advice on the internet is not to store it in enclosed spaces such as boat holds--but is that just because of the danger to your health if it builds up? Will the "smoke" damage or discolor any of the equipment or surfaces inside? The walls on these things are basically thick styrofoam with vinyl wallboard. Then I'm also wondering about the stereo, refrigerator, light fixtures, etc, both the wiring and the plastic exteriors.
Just guessing, but I would imagine there is an additional danger of expanding gas having nowhere to go if the enclosed space is pretty well-enclosed. Might damage some of the seals on your camper, etc., trying to find a seam to escape out of.
posted by resurrexit at 7:34 AM on August 23, 2013
posted by resurrexit at 7:34 AM on August 23, 2013
Response by poster: I know it's carbon dioxide, but I've read a couple of references to dry ice's ability to "damage equipment." Maybe they were referring to dry ice in its solid form touching equipment?
posted by HotToddy at 7:35 AM on August 23, 2013
posted by HotToddy at 7:35 AM on August 23, 2013
The "smoke" is just water vapor condensing out of the atmosphere, so I imagine the risk to "equipment" is just having that water fog getting into electrical components and causing shorts or corrosion.
Camping equipment that's designed for outdoor use should not be affected by it at all.
posted by backseatpilot at 7:48 AM on August 23, 2013
Camping equipment that's designed for outdoor use should not be affected by it at all.
posted by backseatpilot at 7:48 AM on August 23, 2013
The dry ice is cold, and the C02 gas that it sublimates into is still very cold. C02 gas is colorless. So why do you see white "smoke?" The "smoke" is actually water vapor condensing into fog because the cold C02 gas causes the temperature in its vicinity to drop below the condensation point of water.
... yadda yadda, cold and corrosion, nothing to worry about, what backseatpilot said.
posted by rocketpup at 7:50 AM on August 23, 2013
... yadda yadda, cold and corrosion, nothing to worry about, what backseatpilot said.
posted by rocketpup at 7:50 AM on August 23, 2013
Carbon dioxide gas is basically inert at standard temperature and pressure.
It does have a very high vapor pressure, which is why you don't want to seal up a chunk of it in an airtight container. But I really doubt a camper is anywhere near airtight enough to suffer damage from co2 pressurization.
posted by gjc at 7:51 AM on August 23, 2013
It does have a very high vapor pressure, which is why you don't want to seal up a chunk of it in an airtight container. But I really doubt a camper is anywhere near airtight enough to suffer damage from co2 pressurization.
posted by gjc at 7:51 AM on August 23, 2013
Yup, two dangers
1. Spaced is well sealed, pressure builds up, 'boom'
2. Poorly ventilated space is filled with CO2. You enter space and suffocate.
1. It's a pop-top camper, probably not super sealed, though I haven't checked personally.
2. It's a pop-top camper. When you open it, you're immediately adding a whole lot of volume (and air) to the space. Plus it's well ventilated. I wouldn't crawl inside the non-popped space right after opening the door (assuming you can actually do such a thing), but if you've popped it, you will be fine. Probably don't leave the cooler in the space while it's popped to avoid any and all problems while you're sleeping, but realistically it should be ok.
Apparently you can even clean electronics with dry ice blasting and other than condensation causing water to collect due to low temps, I can't see it doing much to your stuff.
Also, I think i've seen some pop-up campers with side vents, do those keep ventilating the space even when it's collapsed?
posted by defcom1 at 8:05 AM on August 23, 2013
1. Spaced is well sealed, pressure builds up, 'boom'
2. Poorly ventilated space is filled with CO2. You enter space and suffocate.
1. It's a pop-top camper, probably not super sealed, though I haven't checked personally.
2. It's a pop-top camper. When you open it, you're immediately adding a whole lot of volume (and air) to the space. Plus it's well ventilated. I wouldn't crawl inside the non-popped space right after opening the door (assuming you can actually do such a thing), but if you've popped it, you will be fine. Probably don't leave the cooler in the space while it's popped to avoid any and all problems while you're sleeping, but realistically it should be ok.
Apparently you can even clean electronics with dry ice blasting and other than condensation causing water to collect due to low temps, I can't see it doing much to your stuff.
Also, I think i've seen some pop-up campers with side vents, do those keep ventilating the space even when it's collapsed?
posted by defcom1 at 8:05 AM on August 23, 2013
Response by poster: Right, it's not airtight, even when folded. It doesn't have side vents, but the roof panels don't form an airtight seal. Just to be safe I could open the door to let air in when we stop for gas, etc.
So, last thing then, is the water vapor going to be enough to make everything damp in there? It's the smallest A-frame, so when folded a box about 7' x 12' x 3' high. Not sure how much water vapor we're talking about here.
posted by HotToddy at 8:10 AM on August 23, 2013
So, last thing then, is the water vapor going to be enough to make everything damp in there? It's the smallest A-frame, so when folded a box about 7' x 12' x 3' high. Not sure how much water vapor we're talking about here.
posted by HotToddy at 8:10 AM on August 23, 2013
If you're driving the wind should dissipate the water vapor and CO2 very rapidly.
posted by dfriedman at 8:12 AM on August 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by dfriedman at 8:12 AM on August 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
It doesn't pull water vapour in from the outside, it just condenses what is there into a fog. It wouldn't get anymore damp that if you were driving from a warm place into a suddenly cold place. You know how bedsheets can feel damp at night when it is very humid, that is what you would be dealing with so as long as you don't have enough dry ice to keep things damp for months on end I wouldn't worry about it.
posted by koolkat at 8:13 AM on August 23, 2013
posted by koolkat at 8:13 AM on August 23, 2013
Response by poster: Okay, looks like it's a go! Thanks everyone!
posted by HotToddy at 8:27 AM on August 23, 2013
posted by HotToddy at 8:27 AM on August 23, 2013
Why not just use canned dog food? And avoid the entire issue?
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 8:39 AM on August 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 8:39 AM on August 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't screw with dry ice. That whole suffocation hazard and all.
Just get a fridge that plugs into your cigarette lighter.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:50 AM on August 23, 2013
Just get a fridge that plugs into your cigarette lighter.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:50 AM on August 23, 2013
Ironically there isn't that much risk of a suffocation hazard, provided you are conscious and able to move. The urge to breathe isn't due to a lack of oxygen, but an abundance of CO2 in the bloodstream. I do lots of stupid human tricks with dry ice (including putting it in my mouth with a bt of water to have smoke come out of my nose) and have breathed in CO2 for a couple of lungfuls and it is a rather odd experience. You know you are breathing, but it doesn't seem to work. People have exploited this phenomenon for psychedelic ends.
I've never bothered mixing up a complete mixture and have never really had more than 5 breaths, which really just leaves you gasping for air. The real danger of an asphyxiant is with an inert gas like argon or nitrogen. It still displaces the oxygen, but instead of thinking you are running out of breath instead you breathe normally and become euphoric and confused followed quickly by sleep and death in less than 5 minutes.
posted by koolkat at 9:11 AM on August 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've never bothered mixing up a complete mixture and have never really had more than 5 breaths, which really just leaves you gasping for air. The real danger of an asphyxiant is with an inert gas like argon or nitrogen. It still displaces the oxygen, but instead of thinking you are running out of breath instead you breathe normally and become euphoric and confused followed quickly by sleep and death in less than 5 minutes.
posted by koolkat at 9:11 AM on August 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Dry ice "smoke" has no smell so the whole premise of the question is wrong.
Btw, There are hazards associated with dry ice that have nothing to do with suffocation. For example if youpack soda cans directly on dry ice they will explode. Foods and surfaces around dry ice will be. infiltrated by carbon dioxide so for example if you store hummus in close proximity to dry ice in a tightly enclosed cooler you may end up with fizzy hummus.
There are other issues such as embrittlement. Dry ice is cold. It can destroy the integrity of nearby surfaces including any metal that has joints or at the point where the metal connects to another surface.
Then there is water vapor, which is inevitable...
posted by rr at 10:14 AM on August 23, 2013
Btw, There are hazards associated with dry ice that have nothing to do with suffocation. For example if youpack soda cans directly on dry ice they will explode. Foods and surfaces around dry ice will be. infiltrated by carbon dioxide so for example if you store hummus in close proximity to dry ice in a tightly enclosed cooler you may end up with fizzy hummus.
There are other issues such as embrittlement. Dry ice is cold. It can destroy the integrity of nearby surfaces including any metal that has joints or at the point where the metal connects to another surface.
Then there is water vapor, which is inevitable...
posted by rr at 10:14 AM on August 23, 2013
And then there's THIS from our friends at the CDC.
Sure it was 100 pounds of dry ice, but...you know.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:49 AM on August 23, 2013
Sure it was 100 pounds of dry ice, but...you know.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:49 AM on August 23, 2013
I've done a lot of multi-week camping trips and dry ice is not the best thing for keeping food cold. While dry ice is a lower temperature than water ice, it has a much lower capacity for heat. What that means is that a block of water ice in your cooler will last much longer than the same size block of dry ice.
First, freeze your food solid in the freezer in doubled zip-lock bags so they are waterproof. The food itself becomes ice. Put a layer of block ice in the bottom of the cooler. Blocks last longer than crushed ice. Put the frozen food on top of the block ice. Fill the remainder of the cooler with as much block ice as will fit then pack every loose crevice with crushed ice. You may want to layer the food so that some is near the top for easy access while traveling. Every day pull the plug to drain any water from the cooler. Water left in and sloshing around carries heat from the top and sides and melts the remaining ice faster. Every couple of days add another bag of crushed ice to top off.
The food will not stay rock hard frozen, but it will remain at 32 degrees which is fine for keeping it safe for several weeks.
posted by JackFlash at 11:06 AM on August 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
First, freeze your food solid in the freezer in doubled zip-lock bags so they are waterproof. The food itself becomes ice. Put a layer of block ice in the bottom of the cooler. Blocks last longer than crushed ice. Put the frozen food on top of the block ice. Fill the remainder of the cooler with as much block ice as will fit then pack every loose crevice with crushed ice. You may want to layer the food so that some is near the top for easy access while traveling. Every day pull the plug to drain any water from the cooler. Water left in and sloshing around carries heat from the top and sides and melts the remaining ice faster. Every couple of days add another bag of crushed ice to top off.
The food will not stay rock hard frozen, but it will remain at 32 degrees which is fine for keeping it safe for several weeks.
posted by JackFlash at 11:06 AM on August 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Dry ice "smoke" has no smell so the whole premise of the question is wrong.
Actual real-life dry ice is not some platonic ideal of pure CO2. It contains impurities, and those impurities may have an odor.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:09 PM on August 23, 2013
Actual real-life dry ice is not some platonic ideal of pure CO2. It contains impurities, and those impurities may have an odor.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:09 PM on August 23, 2013
Response by poster: Dry ice "smoke" has no smell so the whole premise of the question is wrong.
Yeah, I don't know what to tell you, but I've traveled with it in the car numerous times and found it to have a bothersome smell. Or perhaps it wasn't precisely a smell but rather a "discernible effect on the nasal passages." Regardless, I don't want it in the car with me.
posted by HotToddy at 2:57 PM on August 23, 2013
Yeah, I don't know what to tell you, but I've traveled with it in the car numerous times and found it to have a bothersome smell. Or perhaps it wasn't precisely a smell but rather a "discernible effect on the nasal passages." Regardless, I don't want it in the car with me.
posted by HotToddy at 2:57 PM on August 23, 2013
I need to clarify my statement from above. Dry ice has a higher heat capacity than water ice, but it doesn't last as long in a cooler because the lower temperature causes a higher rate of heat transfer through the walls of the cooler. Unless you really need the lower temperature of dry ice, for example for hard ice cream, water ice will last longer and keep most foods adequately cool for weeks.
posted by JackFlash at 9:09 PM on August 23, 2013
posted by JackFlash at 9:09 PM on August 23, 2013
JackFlash has it. Regular ice and frozen food will work much better than dry ice.
posted by fshgrl at 10:08 PM on August 23, 2013
posted by fshgrl at 10:08 PM on August 23, 2013
Response by poster: Well, I need to keep raw meat frozen, as in really actually frozen, for three or four days. Then it can just be cold. Regular ice or dry ice?
posted by HotToddy at 12:03 PM on August 24, 2013
posted by HotToddy at 12:03 PM on August 24, 2013
And then there's THIS from our friends at the CDC.
Which just goes to show how stupid people can be.
From the report:
In September 2004, in anticipation of a power outage during the aftermath of Hurricane Ivan, a man aged 34 years in Mobile, Alabama, purchased a 100-lb block of dry ice from a local ice house. The block of dry ice was divided into four equal parts and packaged in brown paper bags, which were placed in the front seat of the man's pickup truck. The windows were closed, and the air conditioner was set to recirculate air inside the cab of the truck. After driving approximately one quarter mile from the ice house, the man had shortness of breath; his breathing difficulty increased as he drove the next mile. The man telephoned his wife and asked her to call 911. He then pulled his truck into a parking lot, parked, and lost consciousness. His wife drove to the parking lot and located her husband's truck; immediately after she opened the door to the vehicle, her husband began to awaken.
So he was driving with a large amount of solid CO2 in an enclosed space and recirculating the air. He began to have shortness of breath, but kept on driving and instead of opening the window he kept on driving and asked his wife to call 911. As soon as he had actual air to breathe again he was fine. If he had liquid nitrogen or argon he wouldn't have even had shortness of breath and instead would have just passed out while driving and then once the windows were broken after the crash he would have probably recovered, unless he passed out at a stop light in which case he would have died. A reasonable person even remotely knowledgeable about human respiration should have known to open the windows. They're not called Darwin awards for nothing.
posted by koolkat at 2:58 AM on August 25, 2013
Which just goes to show how stupid people can be.
From the report:
In September 2004, in anticipation of a power outage during the aftermath of Hurricane Ivan, a man aged 34 years in Mobile, Alabama, purchased a 100-lb block of dry ice from a local ice house. The block of dry ice was divided into four equal parts and packaged in brown paper bags, which were placed in the front seat of the man's pickup truck. The windows were closed, and the air conditioner was set to recirculate air inside the cab of the truck. After driving approximately one quarter mile from the ice house, the man had shortness of breath; his breathing difficulty increased as he drove the next mile. The man telephoned his wife and asked her to call 911. He then pulled his truck into a parking lot, parked, and lost consciousness. His wife drove to the parking lot and located her husband's truck; immediately after she opened the door to the vehicle, her husband began to awaken.
So he was driving with a large amount of solid CO2 in an enclosed space and recirculating the air. He began to have shortness of breath, but kept on driving and instead of opening the window he kept on driving and asked his wife to call 911. As soon as he had actual air to breathe again he was fine. If he had liquid nitrogen or argon he wouldn't have even had shortness of breath and instead would have just passed out while driving and then once the windows were broken after the crash he would have probably recovered, unless he passed out at a stop light in which case he would have died. A reasonable person even remotely knowledgeable about human respiration should have known to open the windows. They're not called Darwin awards for nothing.
posted by koolkat at 2:58 AM on August 25, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by sanka at 7:27 AM on August 23, 2013 [2 favorites]