How to change this family dynamic?
November 29, 2011 7:18 AM Subscribe
Have you successfully changed a life-long family dynamic as an adult? Are you a youngest child? Tell me about it.
I just returned from an emotionally draining trip to visit family for Thanksgiving. I am looking for strategies to either help me change the way I am treated, or at least help me cope with my situation.
First off, let me say that my family is important to me. There is a lot of love there, and I want my son to know his extended family, including his cousins. I am, here, emphasizing only the bad parts, but there are some good interactions as well. Cutting these people out of my life isn't an option. I just want to be better able to cope with visiting with these people. They aren’t a part of my daily life, and so don’t know me very well, but think they do.
I am a responsible adult. I have a weekly budget, a termite contract, go to the dentist regularly, and installed my own toilet. I'm intelligent, successful at what I do, work hard, and have many friends. There is much evidence of these characteristics that my family is aware of, including having a PhD, black belt, good career, active social life, a house, a son, etc.
I am also, however, also the youngest of four sisters. I have been condescended to my entire life. To my sisters I'm some type of savant. I did the best in school, was a nerd growing up, and didn’t share a lot of the same interests they do. (e.g. I would much rather read Discover or the Economist than People or Vogue.) Ever since we were kids, the three of them have been close, and I’ve been the odd one out.
So they know that I’m smart, but they are convinced that’s my only redeeming trait, and that I can just barely take care of myself in my everyday life (e.g. One of my sisters has taken it upon herself to warn two of my girlfriends that I “needed taking care of” and they’re glad I had someone to watch out for me). They think I have an extra hard time making friends (e.g. At our baby shower of 30+ people, my sister asked, “Do you even know all these people?”). They seem constantly bemused by whatever I have to say about my personal life. (e.g. “You take karate? That’s so funny. Why is that funny? Don’t you remember that episode of Seinfeld with Kramer and the kids?”) I am interrupted or talked over and frequently ignored. This past weekend I was left out of many conversations and all decision-making. And of course, now that I have a baby, that opens up whole new avenues of advice giving from them.
I’m not very good at calling them out in the moment. It’s infuriating, makes me flustered, and makes me become even more introverted around them. I hate causing a scene, and if I acknowledge it, I get angry and emotional. And if all three of them are together, they will all gang up on me, and three versus one means that clearly I’m the one out of line. Any outburst from me will just be more evidence for them that I’m somehow emotionally stunted and awkward.
I feel like I’m at a dead end, I don’t know how to change this dynamic. I have tried in the past talking to them one-on-one and asking them to treat me like an adult. I've said it both calmly and in anger, and neither has worked. Has anyone here ever successfully changed a family dynamic similar to this? Any advice on what I can do to survive the next encounter with my sanity and self-esteem intact?
I just returned from an emotionally draining trip to visit family for Thanksgiving. I am looking for strategies to either help me change the way I am treated, or at least help me cope with my situation.
First off, let me say that my family is important to me. There is a lot of love there, and I want my son to know his extended family, including his cousins. I am, here, emphasizing only the bad parts, but there are some good interactions as well. Cutting these people out of my life isn't an option. I just want to be better able to cope with visiting with these people. They aren’t a part of my daily life, and so don’t know me very well, but think they do.
I am a responsible adult. I have a weekly budget, a termite contract, go to the dentist regularly, and installed my own toilet. I'm intelligent, successful at what I do, work hard, and have many friends. There is much evidence of these characteristics that my family is aware of, including having a PhD, black belt, good career, active social life, a house, a son, etc.
I am also, however, also the youngest of four sisters. I have been condescended to my entire life. To my sisters I'm some type of savant. I did the best in school, was a nerd growing up, and didn’t share a lot of the same interests they do. (e.g. I would much rather read Discover or the Economist than People or Vogue.) Ever since we were kids, the three of them have been close, and I’ve been the odd one out.
So they know that I’m smart, but they are convinced that’s my only redeeming trait, and that I can just barely take care of myself in my everyday life (e.g. One of my sisters has taken it upon herself to warn two of my girlfriends that I “needed taking care of” and they’re glad I had someone to watch out for me). They think I have an extra hard time making friends (e.g. At our baby shower of 30+ people, my sister asked, “Do you even know all these people?”). They seem constantly bemused by whatever I have to say about my personal life. (e.g. “You take karate? That’s so funny. Why is that funny? Don’t you remember that episode of Seinfeld with Kramer and the kids?”) I am interrupted or talked over and frequently ignored. This past weekend I was left out of many conversations and all decision-making. And of course, now that I have a baby, that opens up whole new avenues of advice giving from them.
I’m not very good at calling them out in the moment. It’s infuriating, makes me flustered, and makes me become even more introverted around them. I hate causing a scene, and if I acknowledge it, I get angry and emotional. And if all three of them are together, they will all gang up on me, and three versus one means that clearly I’m the one out of line. Any outburst from me will just be more evidence for them that I’m somehow emotionally stunted and awkward.
I feel like I’m at a dead end, I don’t know how to change this dynamic. I have tried in the past talking to them one-on-one and asking them to treat me like an adult. I've said it both calmly and in anger, and neither has worked. Has anyone here ever successfully changed a family dynamic similar to this? Any advice on what I can do to survive the next encounter with my sanity and self-esteem intact?
Best answer: So they know that I’m smart, but they are convinced that’s my only redeeming trait, and that I can just barely take care of myself in my everyday life
Is it possible that this is their way of feeling more comfortable with the fact that you're smarter than them, and have different priorities? I know I've had people in my life who have done this in the past. Usually it seems to be a way of shoring up their own self-esteem. "Yes, Tooty is book-smart, but I know more people skills/emotional maturity/common sense/whatever."
If that feels like that might be the case, then any time you demonstrate people skills/emotional maturity/common sense/whatever, they may be taking it as an attack on the thing that made them feel equal to you. Interrupting you, talking over you, or ignoring you when you do these things is a way of denying that threat to their self-conception. The advice may come from a place of not wanting to feel inferior to you.
One thing that has worked for me is creating a situation that allows the person to feel competent/superior in a sphere of their own, one which does not require them to compare themselves to me. ("So, sis, how do you like $interestyoudonotshare? What types of things have you been doing lately?") Feeling competent is good and if you can help them feel competent, it may help reduce their need to put you in a safe, only-book-smart box.
posted by pie ninja at 7:39 AM on November 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
Is it possible that this is their way of feeling more comfortable with the fact that you're smarter than them, and have different priorities? I know I've had people in my life who have done this in the past. Usually it seems to be a way of shoring up their own self-esteem. "Yes, Tooty is book-smart, but I know more people skills/emotional maturity/common sense/whatever."
If that feels like that might be the case, then any time you demonstrate people skills/emotional maturity/common sense/whatever, they may be taking it as an attack on the thing that made them feel equal to you. Interrupting you, talking over you, or ignoring you when you do these things is a way of denying that threat to their self-conception. The advice may come from a place of not wanting to feel inferior to you.
One thing that has worked for me is creating a situation that allows the person to feel competent/superior in a sphere of their own, one which does not require them to compare themselves to me. ("So, sis, how do you like $interestyoudonotshare? What types of things have you been doing lately?") Feeling competent is good and if you can help them feel competent, it may help reduce their need to put you in a safe, only-book-smart box.
posted by pie ninja at 7:39 AM on November 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
I think that they feel threatened by your education and nerdy (to them) interests. I'm in the same position with my family, and I just don't talk about the latest issue of the Economist with them. I save that for people who are interested, and I keep the conversation light. I also make sure I'm not condescending to them. I don't share their tastes in ... anything, but it's important that I don't think lesser of them for liking Jersey Shore or whatever. I wonder if they pick up on an undercurrent of this from you. Do you think they're dumber than you? Be honest. Remind yourself of the qualities they have that you don't (my sister is an awesome housekeeper, while I am kind of a slob).
You can set boundaries - you don't need to stand there and take it. If they already think you're stunted and awkward, what does it matter if you provide more "evidence" of this by walking away when they gang up on you? The way to preserve your self-esteem is to take the high road and remain calm. Practice being calm through meditation or another type of relaxation. Do something relaxing before you see them, like a massage, and plan something nice for yourself afterwards.
I said "practice" for a reason - you will need to remind yourself often and this approach takes time. They may never change, and it behooves you to accept that (and mourn the sisters you want but will never have). But over time, it will affect you less and less.
posted by desjardins at 7:39 AM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
You can set boundaries - you don't need to stand there and take it. If they already think you're stunted and awkward, what does it matter if you provide more "evidence" of this by walking away when they gang up on you? The way to preserve your self-esteem is to take the high road and remain calm. Practice being calm through meditation or another type of relaxation. Do something relaxing before you see them, like a massage, and plan something nice for yourself afterwards.
I said "practice" for a reason - you will need to remind yourself often and this approach takes time. They may never change, and it behooves you to accept that (and mourn the sisters you want but will never have). But over time, it will affect you less and less.
posted by desjardins at 7:39 AM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
I’m not very good at calling them out in the moment.
You need to find a way to get better at this.
Whenever they start treating you unfairly.. stop the conversation and walk away. If it's on the phone, tell them you won't to listen to that and goodbye. Hang up.
Don't make a big emotional deal out of it. If they ask you why, count to ten and calmly tell them you will not be treated like that.
If they ask why, don't say "because you're treating me poorly" instead phrase it something like: I don't want to be talked down to. I won't listen to it.
You need to find your inner bitchiness and embrace her. Have a little bite in your bark.
posted by royalsong at 7:40 AM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
You need to find a way to get better at this.
Whenever they start treating you unfairly.. stop the conversation and walk away. If it's on the phone, tell them you won't to listen to that and goodbye. Hang up.
Don't make a big emotional deal out of it. If they ask you why, count to ten and calmly tell them you will not be treated like that.
If they ask why, don't say "because you're treating me poorly" instead phrase it something like: I don't want to be talked down to. I won't listen to it.
You need to find your inner bitchiness and embrace her. Have a little bite in your bark.
posted by royalsong at 7:40 AM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I don't know how to change the dynamic, but I was recently at a friend's family gathering where the honoree was turning 90 something. She kept telling her 70 something daughter what to do. Turn up the oven, put the milk away. Etc. Finally, the lady blurted out, "Mom! I am 70 years old and managed to get this far on my own. Stop. Telling. Me. What. To. Do. Everyone laughed, but I sort of sat there kind of saddened. This lady was 55 years past the age where she maybe should have been treated like that.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:02 AM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:02 AM on November 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I don't know how much you can change your sisters' behavior, but are you reacting to it as well as you could? Like, not letting it get under your skin? The baby shower comment - did you/can you/could you just roll your eyes and say "No, they're complete strangers. They must have thought they were going to someone else's baby shower, but hey, presents!"
I think desjardins is right that you staying calm is key - firstly, it's going to make you feel better, and secondly, it's going to demonstrate that you're not as socially awkward as they think you are.
My sister and I had a sporty one/smart one kind of relationship for our entire childhood and well into our twenties (I was the smart one) and we're now much closer to each other and less bound to those roles, but I don't know that I have any transferable lessons; I got sportier, she always was about as smart as I am, really, and we bonded over a lot of exasperation at our mother, among other things.
posted by mskyle at 8:10 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think desjardins is right that you staying calm is key - firstly, it's going to make you feel better, and secondly, it's going to demonstrate that you're not as socially awkward as they think you are.
My sister and I had a sporty one/smart one kind of relationship for our entire childhood and well into our twenties (I was the smart one) and we're now much closer to each other and less bound to those roles, but I don't know that I have any transferable lessons; I got sportier, she always was about as smart as I am, really, and we bonded over a lot of exasperation at our mother, among other things.
posted by mskyle at 8:10 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Maybe it will help you to know that when I see my older relatives and their siblings get together, they experience the same thing--and I am talking about women who are all in their 60s and 70s--they all act like they did when they were teenagers. For most people, it doesn't change, not matter what you accomplish in life.
But, like chaiminda said, you can only change how you respond to them. This is what my wife has done, through years of therapy. When my wife met me, her parents tried to treat her (and me) like young pre-adult children again. I set boundaries the second time I met her parents (the first time threw caught me off-guard a bit). Nearly a decade later, it is still working.
I still see how my wife and her sister respond to each other, and that is a work in progress, but at least her relationship with her parents has changed greatly. We see how her siblings' relationship with the parents haven't changed, and we are ever grateful for putting the never ending effort into it.
My sister and I have worked on it, too. Until our mid-30s, we still treated each other how we did as we were kids--I was the smart one, she couldn't do anything on her own, she was resentful of me. It wasn't until I had to live with her for a month that she realized I was simply human, too, and our dynamic changed. People who don't know us would never guess we are siblings, because we don't "act like siblings" people say.
posted by TinWhistle at 8:10 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
But, like chaiminda said, you can only change how you respond to them. This is what my wife has done, through years of therapy. When my wife met me, her parents tried to treat her (and me) like young pre-adult children again. I set boundaries the second time I met her parents (the first time threw caught me off-guard a bit). Nearly a decade later, it is still working.
I still see how my wife and her sister respond to each other, and that is a work in progress, but at least her relationship with her parents has changed greatly. We see how her siblings' relationship with the parents haven't changed, and we are ever grateful for putting the never ending effort into it.
My sister and I have worked on it, too. Until our mid-30s, we still treated each other how we did as we were kids--I was the smart one, she couldn't do anything on her own, she was resentful of me. It wasn't until I had to live with her for a month that she realized I was simply human, too, and our dynamic changed. People who don't know us would never guess we are siblings, because we don't "act like siblings" people say.
posted by TinWhistle at 8:10 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I suggest you practice responding as if it's obvious that you're a competent adult, and then change the subject. Don't defend or explain your choices--that just rewards them with more fodder. Instead, cut off that topic and change the subject to something positive that isn't about you. In other words, make it not-fun for them to say critical/condescending things. In some cases, a puzzled look wouldn't be a bad idea, too.
So, some examples:
You take karate? That's so funny.
Well, I really enjoy it. What do you like to do for exercise?
Do you even know all these people?
[Puzzled look.] Yes, of course. Have you had a chance to meet my good friend Linda? Here, I'll introduce you...
[Unsolicited baby/parenting advice.]
Thanks, but I have this covered. I'm going to get a soda from the kitchen, would you like one?
[Joke about your general incompetence at life.]
Nah, I'm fine. Hey, how's your kitchen renovation going?
Get your wife in on it, too:
Jane, it's a good thing Tooty McTootsalot has you to watch out for him! He needs taking care of.
Nah, he's fine. Have you tried the coffee cake? It's delicious.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:15 AM on November 29, 2011 [8 favorites]
So, some examples:
You take karate? That's so funny.
Well, I really enjoy it. What do you like to do for exercise?
Do you even know all these people?
[Puzzled look.] Yes, of course. Have you had a chance to meet my good friend Linda? Here, I'll introduce you...
[Unsolicited baby/parenting advice.]
Thanks, but I have this covered. I'm going to get a soda from the kitchen, would you like one?
[Joke about your general incompetence at life.]
Nah, I'm fine. Hey, how's your kitchen renovation going?
Get your wife in on it, too:
Jane, it's a good thing Tooty McTootsalot has you to watch out for him! He needs taking care of.
Nah, he's fine. Have you tried the coffee cake? It's delicious.
posted by Meg_Murry at 8:15 AM on November 29, 2011 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I'm the youngest. I'm considered the smart one. I am a grown woman with a husband and a house and a kid and I still get asked to bring the pop to Thanksgiving dinner.
There are two ways that I've worked to change the dynamic:
1. I embraced it to some degree. Yes, my family thinks I need to be taken care of - it's because they love me. Yes they want to buy my dinner even though I make more money than them; I let them. Really, it's because they love me.
2. While embracing that part, I also spent time showing them why it was silly. I cooked them elaborate dinners. I called to chat with them (we lived far apart) and told them what I was doing that night - I was going to a concert with friends; spending the weekend in Chicago; handling such and such at work. Eventually they started to figure out I wasn't helpless. Basically, spend more time with them and help them get to know you. Eventually this worked (mostly - I got to make sweet potatos this year!) - and eventually it worked well enough to move home. Where my my still cooks me breakfast, but my siblings have started to rely on me for things.
So that's my advice - start helping them get to know you better. If you can't, because of proximity or whatever, then I think you have to have a conversation with them, but be prepared for it to go something like "hey, you know, I'm a grown up now, and I feel like you don't give me enough credit/still treat me alike a kid/don't value my opinion/don't know me well"; "Well, how are we supposed to know you any better, you're so busy living your big important life out there, ms phd!" (Which they will say because 1) they feel that way but 2) because they're hurt). In other words, think carefully about how you word it. (But don't worry too much - families that love each other forgive each other pretty easily about things like this, in my experience).
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:17 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
There are two ways that I've worked to change the dynamic:
1. I embraced it to some degree. Yes, my family thinks I need to be taken care of - it's because they love me. Yes they want to buy my dinner even though I make more money than them; I let them. Really, it's because they love me.
2. While embracing that part, I also spent time showing them why it was silly. I cooked them elaborate dinners. I called to chat with them (we lived far apart) and told them what I was doing that night - I was going to a concert with friends; spending the weekend in Chicago; handling such and such at work. Eventually they started to figure out I wasn't helpless. Basically, spend more time with them and help them get to know you. Eventually this worked (mostly - I got to make sweet potatos this year!) - and eventually it worked well enough to move home. Where my my still cooks me breakfast, but my siblings have started to rely on me for things.
So that's my advice - start helping them get to know you better. If you can't, because of proximity or whatever, then I think you have to have a conversation with them, but be prepared for it to go something like "hey, you know, I'm a grown up now, and I feel like you don't give me enough credit/still treat me alike a kid/don't value my opinion/don't know me well"; "Well, how are we supposed to know you any better, you're so busy living your big important life out there, ms phd!" (Which they will say because 1) they feel that way but 2) because they're hurt). In other words, think carefully about how you word it. (But don't worry too much - families that love each other forgive each other pretty easily about things like this, in my experience).
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:17 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
For your more immediate family members, you probably see them more. Work on your relationship with them as individuals, rather than as a group. It's easier to deal with one person when trying to change something like that.
posted by annsunny at 8:43 AM on November 29, 2011
posted by annsunny at 8:43 AM on November 29, 2011
Best answer: Lots of good advice so far, but I thought I would add some anecdata to the mix.
I am also the youngest sibling and, although I am 46 years old with a masters in engineering, am known in my field, and have been married for 21 years, I am treated as though I don't know how to care for myself. I don't see my family in person more than once a year, since we live in different states, but we talk on the phone once or twice a month, and we email and text on occasion. It continually amazes my mother when I tell her what's going on in my career, how my singing group is getting along (4 CDs out), or where I've been travelling (lots of trips to Asia for business --all by my lonesome!). She is surprised that I am capable of doing these things. She is surprised Every Single Time.
I have spent the past few years responding to these interactions by making jokes about it. There's a little bit of sarcasm in there, but it's not mean, and it keeps my mood from deteriorating. It is also slowly convincing my mother that I am hilarious. ;)
I do believe that there's no real way to change the behavior of your family, especially after so many years of this type of behavior, but changing your own response, especially keeping it from irritating you, is really your best bet. And, it's possible that some day they will start thinking of you as "the unflappable one" as well -- everybody wins!
posted by blurker at 9:10 AM on November 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
I am also the youngest sibling and, although I am 46 years old with a masters in engineering, am known in my field, and have been married for 21 years, I am treated as though I don't know how to care for myself. I don't see my family in person more than once a year, since we live in different states, but we talk on the phone once or twice a month, and we email and text on occasion. It continually amazes my mother when I tell her what's going on in my career, how my singing group is getting along (4 CDs out), or where I've been travelling (lots of trips to Asia for business --all by my lonesome!). She is surprised that I am capable of doing these things. She is surprised Every Single Time.
I have spent the past few years responding to these interactions by making jokes about it. There's a little bit of sarcasm in there, but it's not mean, and it keeps my mood from deteriorating. It is also slowly convincing my mother that I am hilarious. ;)
I do believe that there's no real way to change the behavior of your family, especially after so many years of this type of behavior, but changing your own response, especially keeping it from irritating you, is really your best bet. And, it's possible that some day they will start thinking of you as "the unflappable one" as well -- everybody wins!
posted by blurker at 9:10 AM on November 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
Harriet Lerner's books should be the Bible for this kind of thing. Be prepared for a slow and long and richly rewarding process. I think I recommend the Dance of Intimacy or the Dance of Connection, to start, but you can't really go wrong.
posted by Salamandrous at 9:28 AM on November 29, 2011
posted by Salamandrous at 9:28 AM on November 29, 2011
Believe it or not it's affection. They are trying to relate to you but they are relating to the old image they have of you from childhood. Can you change that, probably not but you can make them conscious of it. I would personally turn it into a joke and try and see the humour in it. Meg_Murrays examples of ways to come back that are humourous but draw attention to the fact that they are treating you like a kid are great. If you handle it right it can become the family joke and in time they'd be laughing at themselves when they catch themselves doing it.
The other thing you can do is subtitle in you head when they say those things and respond accordingly. My mother still nags me to wear a jumper/sweater I just respond by saying "I love you too but I'm fine." as I subtitle in my head what she's really saying which is I love you and worry about you.
So whey they say "Wow you know this many people." Hear "I love you and was worried you were shy and had no friends but this is a pleasant surprise." Understanding what they are really saying won't change them, but can make it a lot less stressful to put up with.
posted by wwax at 9:30 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
The other thing you can do is subtitle in you head when they say those things and respond accordingly. My mother still nags me to wear a jumper/sweater I just respond by saying "I love you too but I'm fine." as I subtitle in my head what she's really saying which is I love you and worry about you.
So whey they say "Wow you know this many people." Hear "I love you and was worried you were shy and had no friends but this is a pleasant surprise." Understanding what they are really saying won't change them, but can make it a lot less stressful to put up with.
posted by wwax at 9:30 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Family dynamics are hard to change. I'm the youngest of four, also the "brainy" one, and for fun, the only liberal, and here's what I've done that helps:
1. Kept myself busy. In other words, go for a walk, help clean/cook, get involved in a game with family and kids (bring some with you if need be). Anything but sit around waiting for another quiz on Why I Am Still a Socialist Liberal Godhater.
2. Pre-emptive conversation...ask your siblings involved, intensive questions about what they're doing on the job or for fun. Pretend they are like your dinner guests, draw them out. It has the dual function of taking the spotlight off of you and making them feel at ease. You may also discover/remember things about the siblings that make you like them more/understand them better. They may soften towards you a bit, too.
3. Confront your own feelings of inadequacy...that's your part of the family dynamic, feeling unappreciated and incompetent. Whether your family says it or not, they know deep down you're none of those things, so refuse to take it seriously.
posted by emjaybee at 9:32 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
1. Kept myself busy. In other words, go for a walk, help clean/cook, get involved in a game with family and kids (bring some with you if need be). Anything but sit around waiting for another quiz on Why I Am Still a Socialist Liberal Godhater.
2. Pre-emptive conversation...ask your siblings involved, intensive questions about what they're doing on the job or for fun. Pretend they are like your dinner guests, draw them out. It has the dual function of taking the spotlight off of you and making them feel at ease. You may also discover/remember things about the siblings that make you like them more/understand them better. They may soften towards you a bit, too.
3. Confront your own feelings of inadequacy...that's your part of the family dynamic, feeling unappreciated and incompetent. Whether your family says it or not, they know deep down you're none of those things, so refuse to take it seriously.
posted by emjaybee at 9:32 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Hey there, I too have three older sisters. I wouldn't say I was considered the smart one, but definitely the intellectual/cultured one. But then if you were to ask any of them, they would have a way of describing themselves as being the different one and I try to keep that in perspective. We all have our crap to deal with.
So here's the thing that really helped me:a therapy goal of relating to my family without needing their validation on certain things we'll never agree on and in a way that doesn't require me to be a doormat. There are things about me that they'll never know/always assume differently. At some point I had to let that go. There was a period in my 20s where I had to prove to them that I wasn't the person they said I was. They never really saw it/acknowledged it, which frustrated me further. It's so much better to remove that whole dynamic from the equation and that's where therapy really helped me to sort that shit out. They may still say condescending stuff for whatever reason, but I don't *need* them to not say it, if that makes sense.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:42 AM on November 29, 2011
So here's the thing that really helped me:a therapy goal of relating to my family without needing their validation on certain things we'll never agree on and in a way that doesn't require me to be a doormat. There are things about me that they'll never know/always assume differently. At some point I had to let that go. There was a period in my 20s where I had to prove to them that I wasn't the person they said I was. They never really saw it/acknowledged it, which frustrated me further. It's so much better to remove that whole dynamic from the equation and that's where therapy really helped me to sort that shit out. They may still say condescending stuff for whatever reason, but I don't *need* them to not say it, if that makes sense.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:42 AM on November 29, 2011
So I'm the youngest, and I'm the "smart one", though that's not really a big point of difference in my family. My family differs from your report in that they were actively abusive, but the whole "not realizing Iffy is a grown-up now" thing has also been a factor.
A generalizable strategy I found effective was actively changing the logistical family interaction patterns. Spend major holidays with friends instead of family -- not because you're teaching someone a lesson, but because spending Thanksgiving with friends is a normal thing for adults to do. Host dinner at your place. Interact with your siblings one-on-one, not always enmeshed in the family dynamic. I know you've said you've taken your sisters aside, but that's different from forging individual adult relationships with each of them. Also, it's easier to call people out "in the moment" if there's just the two of you instead of the whole family.
Create space, and make an effort to engage your siblings in new, adult, individual contexts.
posted by Iphigenia at 9:57 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
A generalizable strategy I found effective was actively changing the logistical family interaction patterns. Spend major holidays with friends instead of family -- not because you're teaching someone a lesson, but because spending Thanksgiving with friends is a normal thing for adults to do. Host dinner at your place. Interact with your siblings one-on-one, not always enmeshed in the family dynamic. I know you've said you've taken your sisters aside, but that's different from forging individual adult relationships with each of them. Also, it's easier to call people out "in the moment" if there's just the two of you instead of the whole family.
Create space, and make an effort to engage your siblings in new, adult, individual contexts.
posted by Iphigenia at 9:57 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
My big brother can be a condesending prick. He especially likes to do it me and my little brother. He honestly believes that he is "teaching us lessons" by talking about our careers as what "we are doing until we grow up." Little bro and I are near 30 years old.
What we have found to work has been a similar approach as the one Meg_Murry sugests. Saying "that was rude" doesn't work. Saying "Don't be rude" doesn't work. No direct confrontations work because he sincerly thinks that we need to hear it, or at least we should.
Big bro talks about little bro's job as "frivolous', he gives him a look and responds "I love my job. How's the job hunt going? I know your industry has taken some hits this year."
Big bro talks about my neighbor hood as 'in the boonies' and I respond with "I love how quiet it is. Where do you think you guys are going to end up buying a house?"
Deflect deflect deflect. postive attitdue only.
posted by Blisterlips at 10:03 AM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
What we have found to work has been a similar approach as the one Meg_Murry sugests. Saying "that was rude" doesn't work. Saying "Don't be rude" doesn't work. No direct confrontations work because he sincerly thinks that we need to hear it, or at least we should.
Big bro talks about little bro's job as "frivolous', he gives him a look and responds "I love my job. How's the job hunt going? I know your industry has taken some hits this year."
Big bro talks about my neighbor hood as 'in the boonies' and I respond with "I love how quiet it is. Where do you think you guys are going to end up buying a house?"
Deflect deflect deflect. postive attitdue only.
posted by Blisterlips at 10:03 AM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Your experience of being the youngest sibling is totally within the realm of normal.
Let me repeat that. You are having normal feelings. You are noticing normal behaviors.
Ok. Now, you still don't want to keep feeling this unpleasant things, right? And you have probably realized at this stage in your life that the only actions you control are your own. The next step is that emotions are verbs and messengers. You can reign them in, and listen closely to their wisdom.
In conversation, the biggest thing we get told is "talk it out," or "you two need to figure this out between yourselves." But that doesn't work if you keep using the same tools. Rather like approaching a fire hydrant with a drinking straw.
So, you need help, which you have decided, and that led you to us. I don't think you need to jump straight to Therapy. I think you want a visit with the incredibly accessible author and PhD, Deborah Tannen. She has three books I'm going to suggest you check out from the library.
In chronological order, oldest to most recent:
I Only Say This Because I Love You: Talking to Your Parents, Partner, Sibs, and Kids When You're All Adults
You're Wearing That?: Understanding Mothers and Daughters in Conversation
You Were Always Mom's Favorite!: Sisters in Conversation Throughout Their Lives
First up, well. That's pretty self explanatory, right? You are all adults? Yet, the words you choose to describe your reactions (I know, there are many positive interactions that you are not telling us about. It's not the positive stuff that is occupying the space in your mind!) Read these words again. flustered ... angry ... emotional ... outburst You are embodying the role of "youngest" in these interactions, and it's clear that you are tired of it. So. Dr. Tannen will walk you through some research on how you got where you are, the patterns that set this up, and the steps you can take to strengthen your conversational style, with or without the help of your family.
While you don't mention your mother in your question, I would be willing to bet ten dollars that there is something there. Mothers and daughters are usually a treasure trove of angsty angst, if not forever, then at least for a period of time. And some of that angst remains below the surface at a low boil, waiting for an extra load of fuel to roil over. The angst is normal. She and her research assistants listened to and coded hundreds (maybe even thousands!) of hours of conversations between mothers and daughters. This book is full of the patterns they found.
Finally, the book about sisters. I don't recommend starting with this one, because your relationship with them is so raw, so tender, and so delicate right now, at least in your own mind. Opening this book can lead you down three paths. The first is, "See? I was right! They've always been out to get me!" The second is, "Wow. I never realized how much I feed into this dynamic, and how uncomfortable I make them! I am such an asshole and must apologize right this second!" The third path, probably most related to the Middle Way of the Tao is, "Oh, I see. I have some practicing to do, to show my family where my boundaries are, and to pay closer attention to where their boundaries are."
Read these books. Read them again in three months or so. Only after you've read them twice and mulled things over for a bit should you even consider discussing what you've learned with your sisters. (Trust me, sometimes telling someone you've learned "how to communicate more effectively" sometimes sounds, on the other end like, "YOU suck at communicating. Let me fix you. Or better yet, fix yourself!" And it seems that the nicer and more understanding you are about broaching the topic, the more unhinged people might get about being told that you have made some (big) changes in the way you relate to them. I don't completely understand why that happens...but sometimes just making your subtle changes can be enough to make the relationship feel more comfortable to you, and maybe even them.)
posted by bilabial at 11:15 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Let me repeat that. You are having normal feelings. You are noticing normal behaviors.
Ok. Now, you still don't want to keep feeling this unpleasant things, right? And you have probably realized at this stage in your life that the only actions you control are your own. The next step is that emotions are verbs and messengers. You can reign them in, and listen closely to their wisdom.
In conversation, the biggest thing we get told is "talk it out," or "you two need to figure this out between yourselves." But that doesn't work if you keep using the same tools. Rather like approaching a fire hydrant with a drinking straw.
So, you need help, which you have decided, and that led you to us. I don't think you need to jump straight to Therapy. I think you want a visit with the incredibly accessible author and PhD, Deborah Tannen. She has three books I'm going to suggest you check out from the library.
In chronological order, oldest to most recent:
I Only Say This Because I Love You: Talking to Your Parents, Partner, Sibs, and Kids When You're All Adults
You're Wearing That?: Understanding Mothers and Daughters in Conversation
You Were Always Mom's Favorite!: Sisters in Conversation Throughout Their Lives
First up, well. That's pretty self explanatory, right? You are all adults? Yet, the words you choose to describe your reactions (I know, there are many positive interactions that you are not telling us about. It's not the positive stuff that is occupying the space in your mind!) Read these words again. flustered ... angry ... emotional ... outburst You are embodying the role of "youngest" in these interactions, and it's clear that you are tired of it. So. Dr. Tannen will walk you through some research on how you got where you are, the patterns that set this up, and the steps you can take to strengthen your conversational style, with or without the help of your family.
While you don't mention your mother in your question, I would be willing to bet ten dollars that there is something there. Mothers and daughters are usually a treasure trove of angsty angst, if not forever, then at least for a period of time. And some of that angst remains below the surface at a low boil, waiting for an extra load of fuel to roil over. The angst is normal. She and her research assistants listened to and coded hundreds (maybe even thousands!) of hours of conversations between mothers and daughters. This book is full of the patterns they found.
Finally, the book about sisters. I don't recommend starting with this one, because your relationship with them is so raw, so tender, and so delicate right now, at least in your own mind. Opening this book can lead you down three paths. The first is, "See? I was right! They've always been out to get me!" The second is, "Wow. I never realized how much I feed into this dynamic, and how uncomfortable I make them! I am such an asshole and must apologize right this second!" The third path, probably most related to the Middle Way of the Tao is, "Oh, I see. I have some practicing to do, to show my family where my boundaries are, and to pay closer attention to where their boundaries are."
Read these books. Read them again in three months or so. Only after you've read them twice and mulled things over for a bit should you even consider discussing what you've learned with your sisters. (Trust me, sometimes telling someone you've learned "how to communicate more effectively" sometimes sounds, on the other end like, "YOU suck at communicating. Let me fix you. Or better yet, fix yourself!" And it seems that the nicer and more understanding you are about broaching the topic, the more unhinged people might get about being told that you have made some (big) changes in the way you relate to them. I don't completely understand why that happens...but sometimes just making your subtle changes can be enough to make the relationship feel more comfortable to you, and maybe even them.)
posted by bilabial at 11:15 AM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You say they aren't a part of your daily life- is there any way to change that? Even with one or two of your sisters? Maybe one of them could visit you for a while, or you could take a vacation together, or something. Even more frequent phone calls might work.
Something I've noticed as my brothers and I have gradually moved out and stopped living together for long periods of time is that we just don't know each other as well as we used to. We don't see the day-to-day stuff of each others' lives, so it takes more effort to learn about that stuff and not just revert back to treating them like the person they were at 18 or whatever. They might have been surprised at how many people were at your shower because they have no idea you're better at making friends than you were when you were 12 (I think this effect is worse for the younger siblings, because the older ones were already off on their own lives when you were changing the most). Telling them over and over probably won't work as well as letting them see it- mentioning your social life in your frequent phone calls, maybe. They have an inaccurate picture of who you are, and it sounds like you think it's obvious to everyone that you've changed- but you're probably wrong.
posted by MadamM at 12:40 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Something I've noticed as my brothers and I have gradually moved out and stopped living together for long periods of time is that we just don't know each other as well as we used to. We don't see the day-to-day stuff of each others' lives, so it takes more effort to learn about that stuff and not just revert back to treating them like the person they were at 18 or whatever. They might have been surprised at how many people were at your shower because they have no idea you're better at making friends than you were when you were 12 (I think this effect is worse for the younger siblings, because the older ones were already off on their own lives when you were changing the most). Telling them over and over probably won't work as well as letting them see it- mentioning your social life in your frequent phone calls, maybe. They have an inaccurate picture of who you are, and it sounds like you think it's obvious to everyone that you've changed- but you're probably wrong.
posted by MadamM at 12:40 PM on November 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I'm the oldest in the family. My brother is the youngest--ten years younger than me. Our sister is halfway in between. I was my brother's de facto babysitter and surrogate mother from the time he was born until I went away to college (and when I brought the future Dr. Tully Monster home one weekend to meet the family, my baby brother was apparently devastated).
Anyways, now he's in his early thirties, professional, very good at what he does, with an area of expertise that's very different from mine. He's very grown up, and I'm rather proud of the man he's become. But it's taken me a long time not to see him as that cute little kid I used to change, bathe, feed, pull around in a wagon, and read Scuffy the Tugboat three times in a row to get him to go to sleep. I still have to be careful not to tell him what I think he should do, where he should live, how he should eat, how late he should stay up, whether he should get that thing on his arm checked out, how he might meet nice girls, etc.
Our middle sister, on the other hand, is always giving him the benefit of her wisdom (or lack thereof ;)) and their relationship is a bit bumpier, surprise, surprise. My brother's response to her (as it was to me, when I was a lot bossier and more overbearing) is just to maintain an even keel, nod and smile and say, "OK. Interesting," and not let her push his buttons. I think your sisters love you, but they probably still and always will see you as the bewilderingly bright baby sister who just dropped out of the tenth dimension. So I don't think calling them on the way they treat you is going to work. Changing the way you react to it, however, might. And patience. It takes time for people to change.
I also get a sense from your question that you don't interact with them one-on-one all that much. Maybe cultivating individual relationships with each of your sisters, getting to know each of them and letting them get to know you better, would make a difference.
posted by tully_monster at 2:04 PM on November 29, 2011
Anyways, now he's in his early thirties, professional, very good at what he does, with an area of expertise that's very different from mine. He's very grown up, and I'm rather proud of the man he's become. But it's taken me a long time not to see him as that cute little kid I used to change, bathe, feed, pull around in a wagon, and read Scuffy the Tugboat three times in a row to get him to go to sleep. I still have to be careful not to tell him what I think he should do, where he should live, how he should eat, how late he should stay up, whether he should get that thing on his arm checked out, how he might meet nice girls, etc.
Our middle sister, on the other hand, is always giving him the benefit of her wisdom (or lack thereof ;)) and their relationship is a bit bumpier, surprise, surprise. My brother's response to her (as it was to me, when I was a lot bossier and more overbearing) is just to maintain an even keel, nod and smile and say, "OK. Interesting," and not let her push his buttons. I think your sisters love you, but they probably still and always will see you as the bewilderingly bright baby sister who just dropped out of the tenth dimension. So I don't think calling them on the way they treat you is going to work. Changing the way you react to it, however, might. And patience. It takes time for people to change.
I also get a sense from your question that you don't interact with them one-on-one all that much. Maybe cultivating individual relationships with each of your sisters, getting to know each of them and letting them get to know you better, would make a difference.
posted by tully_monster at 2:04 PM on November 29, 2011
Best answer: Does this seem like the sort of thing you could talk to them about one on one?
I have four siblings and have lived far from my family ever since moving out at 17 (I'm now in my mid-thirties). We definitely used to have the same maddening dynamic of treating each other according to the roles we inhabited as children despite the fact that they really obviously didn't fit anymore. It's now much improved (but not perfect - I don't think it will ever be perfect) and that is because of one thing that we did that seemed to work pretty well.
That is: I ended up talking about the issue one-on-one with a few of my more accessible siblings and my dad. Not in a heavy "we need to talk" way, but in a "we were hanging out and got to talking and I made sure I brought it up in a totally non-blamey but 'have you noticed this dynamic'" sort of way. These conversations were really, really refreshing (in fact we still have them occasionally), and turns out that my siblings were also frustrated by assumptions I was unconsciously making about them that weren't true either. We mutually talked about ways to get past it -- mostly coming down to trying to be mindful, and trying our best to get to know each other as we are now -- and that helped. But the main thing that helped was just the fact of the conversation in the first place. Now, when my siblings lapse into the old patterns, I know that's what it is -- a lapse -- rather than a commentary about my character or how they see me.
* Note that it's vitally important to have these discussions one on one. The power of the group dynamic is so overwhelming that if you try to do it with everyone at once, you won't be able to go into any depth or complexity and will ultimately be frustrating at best, counterproductive at worst.
posted by forza at 3:14 PM on November 29, 2011
I have four siblings and have lived far from my family ever since moving out at 17 (I'm now in my mid-thirties). We definitely used to have the same maddening dynamic of treating each other according to the roles we inhabited as children despite the fact that they really obviously didn't fit anymore. It's now much improved (but not perfect - I don't think it will ever be perfect) and that is because of one thing that we did that seemed to work pretty well.
That is: I ended up talking about the issue one-on-one with a few of my more accessible siblings and my dad. Not in a heavy "we need to talk" way, but in a "we were hanging out and got to talking and I made sure I brought it up in a totally non-blamey but 'have you noticed this dynamic'" sort of way. These conversations were really, really refreshing (in fact we still have them occasionally), and turns out that my siblings were also frustrated by assumptions I was unconsciously making about them that weren't true either. We mutually talked about ways to get past it -- mostly coming down to trying to be mindful, and trying our best to get to know each other as we are now -- and that helped. But the main thing that helped was just the fact of the conversation in the first place. Now, when my siblings lapse into the old patterns, I know that's what it is -- a lapse -- rather than a commentary about my character or how they see me.
* Note that it's vitally important to have these discussions one on one. The power of the group dynamic is so overwhelming that if you try to do it with everyone at once, you won't be able to go into any depth or complexity and will ultimately be frustrating at best, counterproductive at worst.
posted by forza at 3:14 PM on November 29, 2011
I love you too, sis.
Well, bless your heart.
How do I ever muddle through without you?
Feel free to say these sweetly or sarcastically, as you wish.
posted by BlueHorse at 7:22 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Well, bless your heart.
How do I ever muddle through without you?
Feel free to say these sweetly or sarcastically, as you wish.
posted by BlueHorse at 7:22 PM on November 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I'm a youngest sister, and have successfully gone from a situation not unlike the one you describe above, with a combination of setting limits individually, making noise when needed, and talking it out with some family members. Oh yeah, and therapy. Spousal support was really key too. Anyway, what I came here to add: I differ from some of the above comments in that I hear the "karate" and other comments as pretty mean-spirited, not as an "I love you" in disguise. If that is the case here, consider my experience: as I delved more deeply into investigating the relationships in my own family dynamic, I realized that I wasn't the only one being "typecast" in a pejorative way. Discovering some other outmoded stereotypes of other family members, observing how they are perpetrated, and challenging them when other members bring them up can be a good starter way of changing the dynamic (I think). For one thing, it can help build allies, but more importantly can help you view everyone in a more nuanced way (not as a block of three people ganging up exclusively on you), and with compassion. I hope that helps.
posted by dreamphone at 4:28 AM on November 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by dreamphone at 4:28 AM on November 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Classical conditioning.
Ignore the behavior you don't like, reward the behavior you do like.
Haven't tried it myself, but it looks pretty interesting.
posted by bunderful at 5:24 AM on December 5, 2011
Ignore the behavior you don't like, reward the behavior you do like.
Haven't tried it myself, but it looks pretty interesting.
posted by bunderful at 5:24 AM on December 5, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks so much guys, I love the hive-wisdom. I kept up with the thread, but just realized that I never responded.
Definitely, these things don't always seem like they're coming from a place of love, some do seem mean-spirited. And, to be clear, when I'm ignored, it's when I say things like, "How was your day," not, "Did you read the latest article about Mugabe in the Economist?"
But it is true, we are all pigeon-holed in the same way, and that I harbor some negative assumptions about them, just as they do of me. They are just more visible with theirs, I think. I like the suggestions about engaging them in ways that allow them to see different sides of myself, and to confirm their own positive qualities.
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 7:57 AM on December 7, 2011
Definitely, these things don't always seem like they're coming from a place of love, some do seem mean-spirited. And, to be clear, when I'm ignored, it's when I say things like, "How was your day," not, "Did you read the latest article about Mugabe in the Economist?"
But it is true, we are all pigeon-holed in the same way, and that I harbor some negative assumptions about them, just as they do of me. They are just more visible with theirs, I think. I like the suggestions about engaging them in ways that allow them to see different sides of myself, and to confirm their own positive qualities.
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 7:57 AM on December 7, 2011
Response by poster: Also, yes, my interactions with them one-on-one are completely different than they are all at once. I didn't mention that, but you guys were smart enough to pick up on that.
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 7:58 AM on December 7, 2011
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 7:58 AM on December 7, 2011
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Also, as an older sister who sometimes condescends to her little brothers, whom I consider to be more successful than I am...it might just be their attempt to relate to you. You have different interests, maybe are more intellectual, and they may feel slightly insecure. The best way they know how to stay close to you is to treat you as they always have, to reduce you to someone less competent than you actually are. That's not okay, and I'm not saying you should try to make yourself okay with it, but seeing it their way might help you have a little more patience with them. Remind yourself that they may be speaking out of insecurity and a wish to connect with you, and that it really has nothing to do with how you really are.
posted by chaiminda at 7:34 AM on November 29, 2011 [3 favorites]