How do you turn a bad therapy session into moving forward and continue to find help?
February 11, 2011 12:21 PM Subscribe
How to I convince spouse to find another therapist when their first encounter was so bad?
For the longest time, DH was anti-personal therapy thinking his life was great--it was everyone else's fault. However, nearly signing paperwork for a divorce, he changed his tune and entered marriage therapy. Then said he would go to personal therapy, which me and our marriage therapist agreed he desperately needs.
Now knowing he isn't into therapy (doesn't like to be labeled, has stereotypes about therapists/diagnosis, etc) my wish was to find someone off the bat but knew this is rare. He trusted our marriage therapist with her recommendation went and had the worse exeprience ever.
Note she called this guy before hand and had some discussions about our issues. But for some reason she put ADHD possibilities and "addiction (marijuana) as primary when in reality my issues with him are lack of accountability, anger/stress management, lack of self introspection, old family stuff affecting us, and then the marijuana. And the drug use was primarily the rule of "dont' use when our kid is around, even if it's in private". He follows that, I'm fine.
So he goes, lets his heart out including some very recent and very painful family stuff with his mom and sister (they're not speaking to each other again). And I highly believe this is a mega problem for all his other problems and he has never 'let it out' before. He was done in an hour, started to leave and the therapist says "well I don't think I can help you. You don't want help."
DH asks what does he mean because he just poured his heart out. The therapist said "well your addiction issues. If it's a problem for your wife, you deny it, and thus, I can't help you. I'm here to help people talk about issues. You don't have a problem talking. Thus I can't help you. Here's a ADHD person to see."
That was that for $150. He left confused, hurt, offended, etc. DH takes things extremely personally and something like this definately set him backwards in emotional openness. He's reluctant to see ANYONE for any reason including an admittance he may indeed have ADHD.
Combined with the recent family not talking to him, he feels overly unloved, lonley, acting very dramatic/worrysome, I can't help him because it's not good enough, super funk/anger that I can't deal with him when he's like this. I'm walking on sensitive eggshells and I keep telling him to go call people I found as a therapist. He NEEDS someone with the boatload of issues--for himself, for our marriage, for our son.
So now what? I have a drama-filled, depressed, angry husband who is now refusing therapy at this time, and definately for these ground-deep family issues. All he is saying is "I need my wife." Well that means I need to walk on eggshells and be subjected to this whiney, intolerable behavior. I can respect, understand, and empathize for how he feels but when he's in this "mood" it turns into fight picking, moodiness, anger, and he expects me to take it. My mood is not to take it and fight back. Six months of marriage therapy work and trying really hard on bad behaviors between us will go to pot.
I don't know how to support him in a loving manner but not get codependent. I don't know how to have him see the light that "F that one therapist goof. Fnid someone new, it's typical" and get over the "poor me no one can help me".
I'm frustrated, angry, and worried for what is to come with all of this---"MOOD" by him.
I've been in and out of therapy and tried sharing stories of therapists falling asleep on me and this is the way it goes. Screw them and move on, but now he's in a rigid "no!" pouting. I feel we are enormously set back and so is his progress.
For the longest time, DH was anti-personal therapy thinking his life was great--it was everyone else's fault. However, nearly signing paperwork for a divorce, he changed his tune and entered marriage therapy. Then said he would go to personal therapy, which me and our marriage therapist agreed he desperately needs.
Now knowing he isn't into therapy (doesn't like to be labeled, has stereotypes about therapists/diagnosis, etc) my wish was to find someone off the bat but knew this is rare. He trusted our marriage therapist with her recommendation went and had the worse exeprience ever.
Note she called this guy before hand and had some discussions about our issues. But for some reason she put ADHD possibilities and "addiction (marijuana) as primary when in reality my issues with him are lack of accountability, anger/stress management, lack of self introspection, old family stuff affecting us, and then the marijuana. And the drug use was primarily the rule of "dont' use when our kid is around, even if it's in private". He follows that, I'm fine.
So he goes, lets his heart out including some very recent and very painful family stuff with his mom and sister (they're not speaking to each other again). And I highly believe this is a mega problem for all his other problems and he has never 'let it out' before. He was done in an hour, started to leave and the therapist says "well I don't think I can help you. You don't want help."
DH asks what does he mean because he just poured his heart out. The therapist said "well your addiction issues. If it's a problem for your wife, you deny it, and thus, I can't help you. I'm here to help people talk about issues. You don't have a problem talking. Thus I can't help you. Here's a ADHD person to see."
That was that for $150. He left confused, hurt, offended, etc. DH takes things extremely personally and something like this definately set him backwards in emotional openness. He's reluctant to see ANYONE for any reason including an admittance he may indeed have ADHD.
Combined with the recent family not talking to him, he feels overly unloved, lonley, acting very dramatic/worrysome, I can't help him because it's not good enough, super funk/anger that I can't deal with him when he's like this. I'm walking on sensitive eggshells and I keep telling him to go call people I found as a therapist. He NEEDS someone with the boatload of issues--for himself, for our marriage, for our son.
So now what? I have a drama-filled, depressed, angry husband who is now refusing therapy at this time, and definately for these ground-deep family issues. All he is saying is "I need my wife." Well that means I need to walk on eggshells and be subjected to this whiney, intolerable behavior. I can respect, understand, and empathize for how he feels but when he's in this "mood" it turns into fight picking, moodiness, anger, and he expects me to take it. My mood is not to take it and fight back. Six months of marriage therapy work and trying really hard on bad behaviors between us will go to pot.
I don't know how to support him in a loving manner but not get codependent. I don't know how to have him see the light that "F that one therapist goof. Fnid someone new, it's typical" and get over the "poor me no one can help me".
I'm frustrated, angry, and worried for what is to come with all of this---"MOOD" by him.
I've been in and out of therapy and tried sharing stories of therapists falling asleep on me and this is the way it goes. Screw them and move on, but now he's in a rigid "no!" pouting. I feel we are enormously set back and so is his progress.
I've been in the situation your husband is currently in. I hate to say it, but he isn't taking responsibility for his situation. If you want to help him, tell him to HTFO (harden the fuck up) and see someone.
It took my marriage almost falling apart before I realized that I was the only one who could make things better. Despite the fact that I said my wife wasn't supporting me, didn't love me, etc, I wasn't taking ownership of myself and my actions. Until that happened (I quit drinking and worked hard on myself) we were stuck in a continuous circle of things getting a little better, then falling back down to arguments and accusations.
You do love him, which is pretty obvious from you asking this question and not writing your marriage off. He may be too far in the weeds to see things for what they are.
Good luck, and stay strong. I have alot of respect for people who CAN stay strong and put up with our idiotic behavior.
posted by TheBones at 12:30 PM on February 11, 2011 [7 favorites]
It took my marriage almost falling apart before I realized that I was the only one who could make things better. Despite the fact that I said my wife wasn't supporting me, didn't love me, etc, I wasn't taking ownership of myself and my actions. Until that happened (I quit drinking and worked hard on myself) we were stuck in a continuous circle of things getting a little better, then falling back down to arguments and accusations.
You do love him, which is pretty obvious from you asking this question and not writing your marriage off. He may be too far in the weeds to see things for what they are.
Good luck, and stay strong. I have alot of respect for people who CAN stay strong and put up with our idiotic behavior.
posted by TheBones at 12:30 PM on February 11, 2011 [7 favorites]
I have alot of respect for people who CAN stay strong and put up with our idiotic behavior.
Only if we idiots are doing the right things to be less idiotic like putting down the pipe/bottle and taking responsibility.
posted by TheBones at 12:38 PM on February 11, 2011
Only if we idiots are doing the right things to be less idiotic like putting down the pipe/bottle and taking responsibility.
posted by TheBones at 12:38 PM on February 11, 2011
Are you both continuing to see the marriage therapist? If so, has he told her that her recommendation didn't work out for him? What was her response?
Even if he won't continue to pursue individual therapy at this point, you two can still work on making the most of your marriage therapy. Try not to think of his bad experience with the individual therapist as a dead end. Keep communicating and working with the marriage therapist for now and see how things pan out.
posted by amyms at 12:42 PM on February 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Even if he won't continue to pursue individual therapy at this point, you two can still work on making the most of your marriage therapy. Try not to think of his bad experience with the individual therapist as a dead end. Keep communicating and working with the marriage therapist for now and see how things pan out.
posted by amyms at 12:42 PM on February 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
If he won't try "therapy" again, maybe you could convince him to go see a Licensed Clinical Social Worker? The way it was explained to me when I was sent to one, was that they focus a little more on practical strategies and a little less on psychoanalysis. However you want to frame it, my experience with this type of practitioner was very positive, but the net result was identical to going to therapy.
The good news is, almost *any* therapy experience is bound to be better than the crap that particular practitioner pulled. And I think rtha's analogy is very good. I always tell people who talk to me about what therapy is like that there are good therapists & bad therapists, and that they should never be afraid to pull the plug if the chemistry isn't right or if they feel that the visits are not effective.
posted by Ys at 12:43 PM on February 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
The good news is, almost *any* therapy experience is bound to be better than the crap that particular practitioner pulled. And I think rtha's analogy is very good. I always tell people who talk to me about what therapy is like that there are good therapists & bad therapists, and that they should never be afraid to pull the plug if the chemistry isn't right or if they feel that the visits are not effective.
posted by Ys at 12:43 PM on February 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think you should let him cool down emotionally from the nasty experience he had. Then discuss trying again, having a conversation first about what to expect and what strategies to use when meeting with a therapist for the first time. The good news is that his emotional outpuring in that session means that he has a strong desire for something like therapy. He's now learned--the hard way--that when meeting a stranger, it's best to take things slow, not opening up too much of your vulnerable self before having built a bit of a relationship with the person and gaged their level of compatibility with you. The fact he didn't know this is not his fault.
posted by Paquda at 12:54 PM on February 11, 2011
posted by Paquda at 12:54 PM on February 11, 2011
I think you keep your eye on the ball:
Also, be careful with the "lack of self introspection, old family stuff affecting us" stuff. His basic personality is not going to change, and old family stuff affects everyone. Focus on specific behaviors that you have a problem with.
posted by jon1270 at 12:55 PM on February 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
my issues with him are lack of accountability, anger/stress management, lack of self introspection, old family stuff affecting us, and then the marijuana.By which I mean, you need to be very clear with him that the status quo is not acceptable. I don't think you can insist that he use a particular set of tools (therapy) to address these problems. The goal ought to be to get him to take responsibility for his behavior, as TheBones suggested. Exactly how he does that isn't and shouldn't be up to you. Therapy may very well be appropriate, but you can't make the choice for him. You can only make choices for yourself, and be clear about them.
Also, be careful with the "lack of self introspection, old family stuff affecting us" stuff. His basic personality is not going to change, and old family stuff affects everyone. Focus on specific behaviors that you have a problem with.
posted by jon1270 at 12:55 PM on February 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
He trusted our marriage therapist with her recommendation went and had the worse exeprience ever.
Note she called this guy before hand and had some discussions about our issues. But for some reason she put ADHD possibilities and "addiction (marijuana) as primary when in reality my issues with him are lack of accountability, anger/stress management, lack of self introspection, old family stuff affecting us, and then the marijuana.
Have you talked with your marriage therapist about why the information the other therapist received from her seems to have been so inaccurate and off-base? I think if I were in a similar situation, I would want to know if that happened because Marriage Therapist really did give the wrong information to Other Therapist, or if Other Therapist somehow massively misunderstood and misinterpreted it. Neither is great, but if Marriage Therapist really does significantly misunderstand what the problems are as you see them, that's not good.
posted by Lexica at 12:56 PM on February 11, 2011
Note she called this guy before hand and had some discussions about our issues. But for some reason she put ADHD possibilities and "addiction (marijuana) as primary when in reality my issues with him are lack of accountability, anger/stress management, lack of self introspection, old family stuff affecting us, and then the marijuana.
Have you talked with your marriage therapist about why the information the other therapist received from her seems to have been so inaccurate and off-base? I think if I were in a similar situation, I would want to know if that happened because Marriage Therapist really did give the wrong information to Other Therapist, or if Other Therapist somehow massively misunderstood and misinterpreted it. Neither is great, but if Marriage Therapist really does significantly misunderstand what the problems are as you see them, that's not good.
posted by Lexica at 12:56 PM on February 11, 2011
Or if, as suggested above, it's your husband's relating of the story to you where misunderstandings and misinformation are being introduced. That's not great either.
posted by Lexica at 12:57 PM on February 11, 2011
posted by Lexica at 12:57 PM on February 11, 2011
I would tell him that his initial skepticism about therapists was warranted. And he can use that skepticism to weed out bad therapists so he can find someone that will actually help him.
posted by AlsoMike at 1:08 PM on February 11, 2011
posted by AlsoMike at 1:08 PM on February 11, 2011
Via strong personal experience, I'm with everyone here who is calling BS on how bad this therapy experience was (although I appreciate all of the kind responses you have received regarding how to re-frame the experience for your husband so he can try again...)
Some people (especially folks deep in certain types of depression/personality disorders/addictions/whathaveyou) just super duper resist therapy and accountability. If you are back to walking on eggshells, this is a very very bad sign.
Try viewing this from outside, objectively. Do you think he really wants to change, or just wants to get you to back-off on the divorce so he can continue on more or less as he has been?
Moodiness? Eggshells? Ummm. You might be dealing with something a little beyond ADHD. I agree there is a significant amount of manipulation going on in your marriage.
Keep positive.
HAVE A BACK-UP PLAN IF HE DOESN'T IMPROVE WITHIN, SAY, 8 TO 10 MONTHS.
You have a son to think of. You can't go on like this forever.
posted by jbenben at 1:11 PM on February 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
Some people (especially folks deep in certain types of depression/personality disorders/addictions/whathaveyou) just super duper resist therapy and accountability. If you are back to walking on eggshells, this is a very very bad sign.
Try viewing this from outside, objectively. Do you think he really wants to change, or just wants to get you to back-off on the divorce so he can continue on more or less as he has been?
Moodiness? Eggshells? Ummm. You might be dealing with something a little beyond ADHD. I agree there is a significant amount of manipulation going on in your marriage.
Keep positive.
HAVE A BACK-UP PLAN IF HE DOESN'T IMPROVE WITHIN, SAY, 8 TO 10 MONTHS.
You have a son to think of. You can't go on like this forever.
posted by jbenben at 1:11 PM on February 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
Not finding another therapist would be like refusing to ever go to the movies again, just because you happened to see one that you hated. Or refusing to eat ice cream just because the first flavor you tried happened to be spumanti.
Etc. etc.
posted by hermitosis at 1:16 PM on February 11, 2011
Etc. etc.
posted by hermitosis at 1:16 PM on February 11, 2011
This might be completely stupid, but have you considered calling the therapist yourself? I know many people I conside to be "unreliable narrators" of their own lives. I wouldn't make the call for them - but you're married and have already been at the brink of divorce.
I don't even know what she is allowed to say - but maybe you can ask enough to get a sense of whether his story is accurate? Then discuss it with him and your couples therapist?
My ex saw a therapist and she would give him relatively clear suggestions - but he just processed things screwy (that's about as nicely as I can put it). So I went with him a couple times to see where the disconnect was. It also helped so his therapist had an idea of who/how I was.
Even if that one was just the worst therapist ever, he might agree to a different one if you came to the first couple sessions for support. Even just in the waiting room. He wouldn't feel so naked and alone?
Is he even still willing to go the marriage therapist? Maybe that combined with cooling down will prevent a total setback. Especially if he knows it's the only thing he can do to save the marriage.
posted by crankyrogalsky at 1:21 PM on February 11, 2011
I don't even know what she is allowed to say - but maybe you can ask enough to get a sense of whether his story is accurate? Then discuss it with him and your couples therapist?
My ex saw a therapist and she would give him relatively clear suggestions - but he just processed things screwy (that's about as nicely as I can put it). So I went with him a couple times to see where the disconnect was. It also helped so his therapist had an idea of who/how I was.
Even if that one was just the worst therapist ever, he might agree to a different one if you came to the first couple sessions for support. Even just in the waiting room. He wouldn't feel so naked and alone?
Is he even still willing to go the marriage therapist? Maybe that combined with cooling down will prevent a total setback. Especially if he knows it's the only thing he can do to save the marriage.
posted by crankyrogalsky at 1:21 PM on February 11, 2011
Echoing the young rope-rider; I'm not saying this therapist was great, but you sound like me when I defended my drug-addicted boyfriend: Oh, it's the other person who had the problem, not me. He wouldn't go to AA because he didn't like the God stuff, and I defended him to others: "he can't deal with the God stuff, as well as the fact that it doesn't meet at a good time, and..." When the fact was, he just didn't want to go to AA.
Again, I'm not saying the therapy experience was ideal, but DO NOT fall into the trap of defending him every time he says it's not his fault. THAT is the definition of co-dependence.
posted by Melismata at 1:23 PM on February 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Again, I'm not saying the therapy experience was ideal, but DO NOT fall into the trap of defending him every time he says it's not his fault. THAT is the definition of co-dependence.
posted by Melismata at 1:23 PM on February 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Agree with those calling BS as well. He clearly is having some sort of accountability issues.
Then said he would go to personal therapy, which me and our marriage therapist agreed he desperately needs.
Maybe it is just the way you worded this, but it reads a bit to me like your couples therapy sessions are ones where you and your therapist attempt to fix him. It might be hard to segue into personal therapy when your couples sessions are more like crisis interventions.
posted by teg4rvn at 1:32 PM on February 11, 2011
Then said he would go to personal therapy, which me and our marriage therapist agreed he desperately needs.
Maybe it is just the way you worded this, but it reads a bit to me like your couples therapy sessions are ones where you and your therapist attempt to fix him. It might be hard to segue into personal therapy when your couples sessions are more like crisis interventions.
posted by teg4rvn at 1:32 PM on February 11, 2011
I'd definitely run his reasoning by your marriage therapist, because she will know what she did and didn't say. In my experience dealing with those kind of professionals, they will offer information but don't hard-sell a diagnosis to another professional. OTOH, your marriage therapist may well identify problems that you don't necessarily think are problems. And anyone who has issues with "anger/stress management" and "lack of accountability" so serious that they undermine a marriage and that cause a need for counseling should possible reconsider not self-medicating with alcohol or marijuana until they have a grip on their issues or their therapist at least signs off on these substances as not exacerbating the situation.
Like others, I'd also have a back-up plan. It's okay for you to have areas you're willing to negotiate, of course, but he needs to know that a single failed attempt is not what it takes to save a marriage, especially when his lack of accountability is an issue.
posted by Hylas at 1:50 PM on February 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Like others, I'd also have a back-up plan. It's okay for you to have areas you're willing to negotiate, of course, but he needs to know that a single failed attempt is not what it takes to save a marriage, especially when his lack of accountability is an issue.
posted by Hylas at 1:50 PM on February 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you for the feedback. All of you provided some insight I didn't think about.
1. could he have exaggerated? Very much probably.
2. could therapy, any type of therapy/person, turn him off and the result would be the same? Yes. Our own therapist said he's combative, defensive, etc. anytime she questions his actions as a problem to make him see how his behavior is wrong. His view is "so am I supposed to just go "ok" because my wife has a problem with it?" instead of "hmmm you know I don't agree fully but partially".
3. codependence, defending him, etc.---I can see how that appears and maybe you're right.
4. should I be walking on eggshells in a marriage because he can't handle moodiness? No and that's what I mean by worrisome. My own challenges of feeling helpful/empathy when I seriously feel he's acting like a big baby/brat with the pouting is beyond help.
5. do I know what to do after a year of posting things like this? No. All I know is it's draining, it's getting old.
He was doing a lot of good in all honesty. He wouldn't have a stress reaction over stupid things like he used to. He would start to be more accountable and apologetic. But a lot of times it feels like one step forward three steps back.
Yes, he can only be accountable for himself and the biggest blockade is his lack of introspection and just play a victim ALL THE TIME. I don't get it. I shouldn't have to hope that my son doens't act this way as time goes on but the more I stay...blablabla.
I guess I just don't know what "right" I have to give up when someone has made attempts in trying. I don't know what a healthy relationship is like to say "well this is how marriage is--it takes work" vs "this is b.s. I"m outta here". Yes that is my part of the problem and asking these questions help me a little more in gaining insight on what is and what shouldn't be and what I deserve better. (and our son).
posted by stormpooper at 1:58 PM on February 11, 2011
1. could he have exaggerated? Very much probably.
2. could therapy, any type of therapy/person, turn him off and the result would be the same? Yes. Our own therapist said he's combative, defensive, etc. anytime she questions his actions as a problem to make him see how his behavior is wrong. His view is "so am I supposed to just go "ok" because my wife has a problem with it?" instead of "hmmm you know I don't agree fully but partially".
3. codependence, defending him, etc.---I can see how that appears and maybe you're right.
4. should I be walking on eggshells in a marriage because he can't handle moodiness? No and that's what I mean by worrisome. My own challenges of feeling helpful/empathy when I seriously feel he's acting like a big baby/brat with the pouting is beyond help.
5. do I know what to do after a year of posting things like this? No. All I know is it's draining, it's getting old.
He was doing a lot of good in all honesty. He wouldn't have a stress reaction over stupid things like he used to. He would start to be more accountable and apologetic. But a lot of times it feels like one step forward three steps back.
Yes, he can only be accountable for himself and the biggest blockade is his lack of introspection and just play a victim ALL THE TIME. I don't get it. I shouldn't have to hope that my son doens't act this way as time goes on but the more I stay...blablabla.
I guess I just don't know what "right" I have to give up when someone has made attempts in trying. I don't know what a healthy relationship is like to say "well this is how marriage is--it takes work" vs "this is b.s. I"m outta here". Yes that is my part of the problem and asking these questions help me a little more in gaining insight on what is and what shouldn't be and what I deserve better. (and our son).
posted by stormpooper at 1:58 PM on February 11, 2011
Response by poster: Oh and we asked what the hell with the marriage therapist. She didn't remember what she said to the guy he had a run in. She admitted that some didn't click with him. And the final kicker was she asked "Did he mention Dr. X for your ADHD? OMG DO NOT see that guy. My patients said he was a freak."
So my DH said "why did you recommend someone you don't know well and someone who has freaks for referrals?"
I was there for that conversation so to me, she f'ed up the whole referral. And that pissed me off.
posted by stormpooper at 2:01 PM on February 11, 2011
So my DH said "why did you recommend someone you don't know well and someone who has freaks for referrals?"
I was there for that conversation so to me, she f'ed up the whole referral. And that pissed me off.
posted by stormpooper at 2:01 PM on February 11, 2011
Response by poster: And finally for the marriage therapist, he still goes. The whole marriage therapist was his idea but he did couch it as "you need help. Try this before filing" because I had 4 lawyers in cue (choosing one) and was so ready to get out of this marriage. We discovered that I had some post partum issues, on meds, he says I seem better, I feel a LOT better so that's when the marriage therapist and I looked at him saying "well she did her part, now where's your part?" Meaning get his ass into long-needed personal therapy.
She, however, told my psych/med doc she is concerned about me in this relationship.
She never once mentioned that to me.
posted by stormpooper at 2:04 PM on February 11, 2011
She, however, told my psych/med doc she is concerned about me in this relationship.
She never once mentioned that to me.
posted by stormpooper at 2:04 PM on February 11, 2011
There was a thread recently about a woman who had decided to leave her husband, due to sexual issues, but was worried about breaking the news, because the whole time he kept saying, "I'm working on it! I'm working on it!". One of the commenters described how (s)he had a similar situation, and told her spouse: "you may say you're working on it and that's fine, but know that if it's not different in X years, I'm going to leave." (And [s]he did wind up leaving.) At some point, you (and others) just need to figure out when enough is enough, and give yourself a time frame. Because people don't change nearly as much as we'd like them to, and it's up to us to decide which is worse, staying in a challenging situation, or being without that person whom we love despite the difficulties. Some people would rather have the former, some the latter; only you can decide that about your own unique situation.
posted by Melismata at 2:18 PM on February 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 2:18 PM on February 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
...seriously, maybe someone here lives in your area or knows someone and could recommend an individual therapist you could see for yourself? Your marriage therapist sounds a little less than mindful, and your spouse seems like he got behind the entire idea because it was about you; now that the spotlight's on him, he's getting the heebie-jeebies about it.
If everyone's worrying about you, you've got a presumably adorable and wonderful kid you want to do right by, and you've been through four lawyers already, enlisting someone to support and explore your choices outside of the context of couples' therapy sounds like a plan.
I've said it before on Ask MeFi this year-- one of my exes enjoyed the "it's not me, it's you; my therapist says I'm perfectly normal and don't need to talk to anyone" thing. He had adult ADD and alcohol issues, had dramatically threatened suicide in front of me once, and was generally just tough to handle. Things finally came to a head and I left-- but if anyone goes that route with their tough-to-handle dual-diagnosis SO, the thing to do is to have an exit strategy, which a social worker or therapist can help you with.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 3:58 PM on February 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
If everyone's worrying about you, you've got a presumably adorable and wonderful kid you want to do right by, and you've been through four lawyers already, enlisting someone to support and explore your choices outside of the context of couples' therapy sounds like a plan.
I've said it before on Ask MeFi this year-- one of my exes enjoyed the "it's not me, it's you; my therapist says I'm perfectly normal and don't need to talk to anyone" thing. He had adult ADD and alcohol issues, had dramatically threatened suicide in front of me once, and was generally just tough to handle. Things finally came to a head and I left-- but if anyone goes that route with their tough-to-handle dual-diagnosis SO, the thing to do is to have an exit strategy, which a social worker or therapist can help you with.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 3:58 PM on February 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
After glancing at your ask history and remembering all the back-story questions, I would like to amend my previous answer here and say he's got two months to start making real headway on his own... and in the meantime I recommend you quietly go about lining up the right lawyer. Just in case.
I've been concerned for you, too.
posted by jbenben at 5:19 PM on February 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
I've been concerned for you, too.
posted by jbenben at 5:19 PM on February 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Oh, man, that sucks.
Well, in truth, whether he's a reliable narrator / whether the other therapist was that much of a freak or not doesn't really matter. Whether it was the shrink or your husband, that interaction didn't work out. And either way, it's on your husband now to keep moving forward, NOT on you to push him forward.
It might be time for you to have a come to Jesus talk with him, where you say "Look, I can't make you go to therapy, nor would I want to, but I can not live like this. And I won't. So either you cowboy up and start working on your own shit in whichever modality or framework actually works for you, or I am blowing this pop stand, because I'm not doing this any more. That guy might have sucked, but that's not a reason for me to stay in a marriage that's killing me."
posted by KathrynT at 5:46 PM on February 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
Well, in truth, whether he's a reliable narrator / whether the other therapist was that much of a freak or not doesn't really matter. Whether it was the shrink or your husband, that interaction didn't work out. And either way, it's on your husband now to keep moving forward, NOT on you to push him forward.
It might be time for you to have a come to Jesus talk with him, where you say "Look, I can't make you go to therapy, nor would I want to, but I can not live like this. And I won't. So either you cowboy up and start working on your own shit in whichever modality or framework actually works for you, or I am blowing this pop stand, because I'm not doing this any more. That guy might have sucked, but that's not a reason for me to stay in a marriage that's killing me."
posted by KathrynT at 5:46 PM on February 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
So much advice above, unlikely mine will crack this nut. But just in case, I throw in a few comments because some of this strikes a chord with my past life.
Being stuck in a rut happens. These days many people are stuck in a rut (can't change jobs, can't sell house, can't get medical care, etc.) Add to that any kind of coping problems due to emotional or mental deficits, and it's a wonder more people aren't in turmoil.
My single therapy experience reminded me of the old computer program ELIZA ("so, you say you feel like you are walking on egg shells?")
I think what helped me get out of some ruts and improve my life was people who loved me convincing me that they felt I was capable of so much more, that I was holding myself back. And then I had an excuse to make changes as I chose to improve my lot, because that's what my family wanted, not any particular action.
Like I said, small chance this will solve your problem. Just a thought.
posted by forthright at 7:10 PM on February 11, 2011
Being stuck in a rut happens. These days many people are stuck in a rut (can't change jobs, can't sell house, can't get medical care, etc.) Add to that any kind of coping problems due to emotional or mental deficits, and it's a wonder more people aren't in turmoil.
My single therapy experience reminded me of the old computer program ELIZA ("so, you say you feel like you are walking on egg shells?")
I think what helped me get out of some ruts and improve my life was people who loved me convincing me that they felt I was capable of so much more, that I was holding myself back. And then I had an excuse to make changes as I chose to improve my lot, because that's what my family wanted, not any particular action.
Like I said, small chance this will solve your problem. Just a thought.
posted by forthright at 7:10 PM on February 11, 2011
None of us know how to get the man to want to try therapy again. So yes, he needs to HTFU and you should keep your eye on the ball. He could go to therapy and never sincerely try to change (perhaps that's what this woman noticed), and he could potentially change without therapy. In a way, maybe she did you a favor by not maintaining some fantasy that he's making progress.
All I know is it's draining, it's getting old.
Girl, I hear you. It made me feel tired just reading this story. That tiredness, in my view, it's wisdom, it's your own body saying "man, I do not have the energy to fix this." Nobody does, even if they had infinite energy, he's the only one who even can.
I guess I just don't know what "right" I have to give up when someone has made attempts in trying. I don't know what a healthy relationship is like to say "well this is how marriage is--it takes work" vs "this is b.s. I"m outta here".
With uphill-battle situations like this, you have to trust that tiredness, because it is telling you something about your own limits.
And sure, marriage is work, but you're hearing from the marriage therapist that she has concerns. "Walking on eggshells" and a number of other things you say give me concerns. Maybe a good next step would be for YOU to get personal therapy. You are the person who wants to make her own life better, whereas we don't know if your guy even wants to change. You could use that therapy to answer some of these questions, like how much trying is enough before you decide it's time to give in.
posted by salvia at 7:58 PM on February 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
All I know is it's draining, it's getting old.
Girl, I hear you. It made me feel tired just reading this story. That tiredness, in my view, it's wisdom, it's your own body saying "man, I do not have the energy to fix this." Nobody does, even if they had infinite energy, he's the only one who even can.
I guess I just don't know what "right" I have to give up when someone has made attempts in trying. I don't know what a healthy relationship is like to say "well this is how marriage is--it takes work" vs "this is b.s. I"m outta here".
With uphill-battle situations like this, you have to trust that tiredness, because it is telling you something about your own limits.
And sure, marriage is work, but you're hearing from the marriage therapist that she has concerns. "Walking on eggshells" and a number of other things you say give me concerns. Maybe a good next step would be for YOU to get personal therapy. You are the person who wants to make her own life better, whereas we don't know if your guy even wants to change. You could use that therapy to answer some of these questions, like how much trying is enough before you decide it's time to give in.
posted by salvia at 7:58 PM on February 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
I know two people in my old neighborhood: he's a very scary macho man and he had this longtime girlfriend who finally got him to go to therapy. After the session, the therapist pulled her aside and said, basically, "Get the hell away from this guy." Some dudes, especially ones high on their own trip, especially those who think they are A-OK and EVERYONE ELSE is the problem, especially guys who hate therapy, especially guys who will only briefly consider therapy if the lady is threatening to leave (hm, doesn't this sound familiar), are probably not going to stick with it. They don't really want to, and will probably look for any reason to get out of it so they can go back to acting as they want to. I would bet money that the session didn't go as he told you it did, and I agree with jbenben on this.
You do seem to have a very large number of unhappy posts on this board. (I'm not even looking up your user history when I say that, this is from memory.) Seriously, start looking at a lawyer. I don't think guys like this ever get better. They aren't motivated to.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:08 PM on February 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
You do seem to have a very large number of unhappy posts on this board. (I'm not even looking up your user history when I say that, this is from memory.) Seriously, start looking at a lawyer. I don't think guys like this ever get better. They aren't motivated to.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:08 PM on February 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
In a nutshell, your problem is that you want your him to change but he doesn't want to.
The loss of his wife and son is not enough of a threat for him to re-examine his own behaviour/contribution to the problem. I would focus on your son and how much damage you (yes, you, not your husband) are on inflicting on him - his dad is his role model for empathy, do you want your son to be a pot-smoking, angry, irresponsible twelve year old that blames you for staying with his dad?
Examine your own reasons for staying in this marriage and go talk to your lawyer. Being a part-time dad may help him to be a better father; it certainly will mitigate the effect he has on your son as at least your son will have one stable household to feel safe in. It will also free you to find a partner, you could be doing so much more with your life if you didn't have to expend 90% of your energy and thinking on your relationship. I am so sorry.
posted by saucysault at 5:12 AM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
The loss of his wife and son is not enough of a threat for him to re-examine his own behaviour/contribution to the problem. I would focus on your son and how much damage you (yes, you, not your husband) are on inflicting on him - his dad is his role model for empathy, do you want your son to be a pot-smoking, angry, irresponsible twelve year old that blames you for staying with his dad?
Examine your own reasons for staying in this marriage and go talk to your lawyer. Being a part-time dad may help him to be a better father; it certainly will mitigate the effect he has on your son as at least your son will have one stable household to feel safe in. It will also free you to find a partner, you could be doing so much more with your life if you didn't have to expend 90% of your energy and thinking on your relationship. I am so sorry.
posted by saucysault at 5:12 AM on February 12, 2011 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I hear you. I am stuck in a rut and I do need somethign to change.
For the lawyers...the one who wanted to mediate (I don't want to go through a judge) told me to work it out with therapy. To make him see that it's him and it's not working.
For support..beyond a best (dramatic) friend, I have no real support. Parts are messed up and wishy washy. And obviously not the best role models for getting out of a bad marriage.
For even the law giving me clear cut help....they said for the issues we have they couldn't intervene and any contact with the police would make the situation worse. They said unless he physically touches me, they can only come, tell him to be quiet, and leave.
So I feel completely lost. I did personal therapy for a year with three different people. They all told me I have no goals except to vent. I felt the same way and quit because it wasn't going anywhere. In the end all decisions are reliant on me making a significant move. And I guess in the end I'm scared of the unknown.
posted by stormpooper at 6:09 AM on February 12, 2011
For the lawyers...the one who wanted to mediate (I don't want to go through a judge) told me to work it out with therapy. To make him see that it's him and it's not working.
For support..beyond a best (dramatic) friend, I have no real support. Parts are messed up and wishy washy. And obviously not the best role models for getting out of a bad marriage.
For even the law giving me clear cut help....they said for the issues we have they couldn't intervene and any contact with the police would make the situation worse. They said unless he physically touches me, they can only come, tell him to be quiet, and leave.
So I feel completely lost. I did personal therapy for a year with three different people. They all told me I have no goals except to vent. I felt the same way and quit because it wasn't going anywhere. In the end all decisions are reliant on me making a significant move. And I guess in the end I'm scared of the unknown.
posted by stormpooper at 6:09 AM on February 12, 2011
You ARE living in the unknown. You are just hoping it won't get worse but you know it will, you just don't know how bad it is going to get. It WILL be hard to make such a drastic change. Good luck!
posted by saucysault at 8:53 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by saucysault at 8:53 AM on February 12, 2011
Even if all you were doing was venting, it'd be ok in my book. But you have real questions here about how much work to put in vs. saying "this is bs I'm outta here," which are things that a good therapist could help you figure out. You don't have to have everything figured out first. You can go to therapy precisely because you feel like all decisions require you making a significant move that you are not ready to make.
posted by salvia at 10:53 AM on February 12, 2011
posted by salvia at 10:53 AM on February 12, 2011
Your husband thinks this is all your fault, and you have reason to try to accept his viewpoint -- not because he's right, but because the implications of his being wrong are scary. Nobody relishes thoughts of divorce, custody fights or single motherhood. It's probably very difficult to even look those possibilities in the eye. I have the impression that you don't know what to think, so you keep consulting with other people -- therapists, mefi, etc. But you seem so perennially off-balance that you're distrusting everything you hear, so little of the advice does you any good. So here's a suggestion: take a vacation. Be somewhere quiet, where nobody knows you for a few days. Give yourself space to calm down and hear your own voice.
Take care of yourself. I've been in a place similar to where you are. It's really hard. It's not your fault.
posted by jon1270 at 12:42 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
Take care of yourself. I've been in a place similar to where you are. It's really hard. It's not your fault.
posted by jon1270 at 12:42 PM on February 12, 2011 [1 favorite]
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If he took the car to a mechanic and the mechanic told him some unlikely sounding thing was wrong with the car ("Your radiator's leaking? Huh. Should probably replace the radio"), would he just give up and drive away in the still-broken car, or would he take it to a different mechanic?
If he got a terrible haircut from someone, would he never again get his hair cut? If he got awful food at one restaurant, would he stop going to all restaurants forever?
posted by rtha at 12:29 PM on February 11, 2011 [1 favorite]