What are you talking about?
January 26, 2011 8:33 AM Subscribe
Can you help me understand and deal with this dynamic between me and my partner?
Both women, late twenties. When I express something that I am needing in our relationship or a problem that needs to be dealt with, it always goes the same way: I explain, as carefully as I can, what is going on. She sits back, listening. After I've finished, she says "I don't understand what you're saying" or some variant thereof. Sometimes it's about a specific thing I've raised that is central to my point. I might say, "I feel X when you do Y, and I need us to Z to deal with it," and she'll say "I don't understand X" or a larger blanket "I don't know what you're trying to tell me."
The result is that I feel totally cut off at the knees, and I always come away feeling like there's some dismissal there. It's really demoralizing to take care to explain a thing succinctly and clearly and then be told that it makes no sense. I try to ask for feedback while I'm talking, but then I get accused of condescending. I try to ask her to clarify so I can explain further, but then we go back and forth niggling over the meaning of smaller and smaller details until the larger point is a million miles away.
She is a super smart person with plenty of empathy; she understands complicated and nuanced emotions with other people. I have tried so hard to give the benefit of the doubt in this scenario - I don't believe she would deliberately manipulate in this way, so I assume that she honestly doesn't understand what I'm saying - but it's so hard to feel like my point never gets across and that I never really get heard.
Can you help me with some communication tips to either understand, get around, or otherwise deal with this kind of scenario? I honestly don't know any more if it's me, or her, or some specific way we relate - I have no problem getting my point across at work or with friends. I am starting to feel like a crazy person at home, though.
Both women, late twenties. When I express something that I am needing in our relationship or a problem that needs to be dealt with, it always goes the same way: I explain, as carefully as I can, what is going on. She sits back, listening. After I've finished, she says "I don't understand what you're saying" or some variant thereof. Sometimes it's about a specific thing I've raised that is central to my point. I might say, "I feel X when you do Y, and I need us to Z to deal with it," and she'll say "I don't understand X" or a larger blanket "I don't know what you're trying to tell me."
The result is that I feel totally cut off at the knees, and I always come away feeling like there's some dismissal there. It's really demoralizing to take care to explain a thing succinctly and clearly and then be told that it makes no sense. I try to ask for feedback while I'm talking, but then I get accused of condescending. I try to ask her to clarify so I can explain further, but then we go back and forth niggling over the meaning of smaller and smaller details until the larger point is a million miles away.
She is a super smart person with plenty of empathy; she understands complicated and nuanced emotions with other people. I have tried so hard to give the benefit of the doubt in this scenario - I don't believe she would deliberately manipulate in this way, so I assume that she honestly doesn't understand what I'm saying - but it's so hard to feel like my point never gets across and that I never really get heard.
Can you help me with some communication tips to either understand, get around, or otherwise deal with this kind of scenario? I honestly don't know any more if it's me, or her, or some specific way we relate - I have no problem getting my point across at work or with friends. I am starting to feel like a crazy person at home, though.
I agree that that sounds frustrating and like it could come across as defensive. It sounds like you want to look to these problems with more of a Team Spirit in order to prevent defensiveness.
Can you ask questions in return? Like "what is it about X you don't understand? Have you ever felt X? What was it like?". These questions may get off the topic at hand, but they're about empathy and could hopefully lead to better mutual understanding.
Alternatively, can you agree that she may not fully get your version of X, but that it is still worthwhile to try Z to help resolve the problem? Or ask is she has alternative to Z for you both to try? Treat it as a team problem looking for a team solution.
posted by ldthomps at 8:42 AM on January 26, 2011
Can you ask questions in return? Like "what is it about X you don't understand? Have you ever felt X? What was it like?". These questions may get off the topic at hand, but they're about empathy and could hopefully lead to better mutual understanding.
Alternatively, can you agree that she may not fully get your version of X, but that it is still worthwhile to try Z to help resolve the problem? Or ask is she has alternative to Z for you both to try? Treat it as a team problem looking for a team solution.
posted by ldthomps at 8:42 AM on January 26, 2011
I think your first step is to sit her down and tell her what you've just told us. I'd go as far as printing this out and giving it to her to read without any lead in.
She might not even be aware that she's doing this and that it is affecting you.
posted by royalsong at 8:43 AM on January 26, 2011
She might not even be aware that she's doing this and that it is affecting you.
posted by royalsong at 8:43 AM on January 26, 2011
It sounds like denial to me. Like she doesn't want to deal with what you're saying so she dodges it. Perhaps she's comfortable with the status quo and your blunt, direct discussion is a threat to the easy, no-responsibilities relationship she thinks she has.
Or maybe I'm just projecting.
posted by j03 at 8:44 AM on January 26, 2011 [4 favorites]
Or maybe I'm just projecting.
posted by j03 at 8:44 AM on January 26, 2011 [4 favorites]
If my partner would behave this way, I would at some point say - "Look, it doesn't matter whether you understand/get this - I just want you to DO X", and then give very specific instructions as to what X is. This may sound a bit harsh, but is usually received well (better than "I feel..." statements"!).
I think there are just different communication styles and sometimes it hugely complicates things if you want your partner to "get" what you're saying in a deep way. Maybe it's enough if she just does what you want. If there is no specific thing you want her to do, it's your turn to think about what you want.
posted by The Toad at 8:45 AM on January 26, 2011 [5 favorites]
I think there are just different communication styles and sometimes it hugely complicates things if you want your partner to "get" what you're saying in a deep way. Maybe it's enough if she just does what you want. If there is no specific thing you want her to do, it's your turn to think about what you want.
posted by The Toad at 8:45 AM on January 26, 2011 [5 favorites]
I don't believe she would deliberately manipulate in this way, so I assume that she honestly doesn't understand what I'm saying
Sorry, but if she habitually claims not to understand what you're saying, without giving a clue as to what specifically isn't making sense to her, I think she probably is deliberately dismissing what you have to say.
It sounds like the pattern seems odd and inexplicable to you, but "I don't understand _____" is actually an extremely commonplace way to dismiss a point while maintaining plausible deniability that "Hey, I never said I disagreed with ____; I just said I didn't understand it!" On the surface, the speaker is assigning the fault to their own lack of comprehension. How magnanimous of them to admit their own failure to process language! But the actual upshot is that they've calmly, efficiently dismissed the point. (I also know what you mean about delving into smaller and smaller details till your original point has been lost; this is another dismissive tactic.)
If this is happening as often as it sounds from your post, things can't keep going on like this. If I were you, I'd bluntly call her out on it. This doesn't need to be as harshly put as I've done here; it could just be a matter of insisting that she specify what she doesn't understand so that you can (if possible) clarify the point.
posted by John Cohen at 8:46 AM on January 26, 2011 [11 favorites]
Sorry, but if she habitually claims not to understand what you're saying, without giving a clue as to what specifically isn't making sense to her, I think she probably is deliberately dismissing what you have to say.
It sounds like the pattern seems odd and inexplicable to you, but "I don't understand _____" is actually an extremely commonplace way to dismiss a point while maintaining plausible deniability that "Hey, I never said I disagreed with ____; I just said I didn't understand it!" On the surface, the speaker is assigning the fault to their own lack of comprehension. How magnanimous of them to admit their own failure to process language! But the actual upshot is that they've calmly, efficiently dismissed the point. (I also know what you mean about delving into smaller and smaller details till your original point has been lost; this is another dismissive tactic.)
If this is happening as often as it sounds from your post, things can't keep going on like this. If I were you, I'd bluntly call her out on it. This doesn't need to be as harshly put as I've done here; it could just be a matter of insisting that she specify what she doesn't understand so that you can (if possible) clarify the point.
posted by John Cohen at 8:46 AM on January 26, 2011 [11 favorites]
How frequently are you having these conversations? It sort of sounds like she is not into the "relationship issues" discussions.
I wonder if part of this might also be different relationship communication styles. I know that I personally *hate* conversations like this. I feel all twitchy just thinking about being on the receiving end of this with any frequency. Of course sometimes a formal "conversation" is necessary, but for the most part, I prefer to deal with stuff like this in a much more casual way. I'm having a hard time thinking of an example relationship discord, but if something came up, I'd be much more likely to be like "Hey, honey, this is making me crazy, will you try to xxx" And my husband will be like "Oh, sure" or "How about this instead?" And 30 seconds later we're done. Usually, anyway :)
posted by robinpME at 8:48 AM on January 26, 2011
I wonder if part of this might also be different relationship communication styles. I know that I personally *hate* conversations like this. I feel all twitchy just thinking about being on the receiving end of this with any frequency. Of course sometimes a formal "conversation" is necessary, but for the most part, I prefer to deal with stuff like this in a much more casual way. I'm having a hard time thinking of an example relationship discord, but if something came up, I'd be much more likely to be like "Hey, honey, this is making me crazy, will you try to xxx" And my husband will be like "Oh, sure" or "How about this instead?" And 30 seconds later we're done. Usually, anyway :)
posted by robinpME at 8:48 AM on January 26, 2011
You're going to need her help with this.
Do a little reading about Active Listening, which is a technique that will structure such conversations. If you're trying to get something across, you'll state it in simple terms with lots of 'I' statements, e.g. I feel X when you do Y. She'll then reflect it back to you to make sure she's understood, e.g. So you're saying that when I do Y, you feel X. Is that right?
You might also want to check out Getting the Love You Want, which includes a detailed method for structuring dialogue around challenging topics, complete with empathy and problem-solving.
FWIW, it sounds like you might be pushing your luck with the "...and I need us to Z to deal with it" part of your talk. Your feelings are one thing. The solution is a separate issue. Your partner is not obligated to accept your particular solution (or any solution, really) just because you feel a certain way. Get the feelings and triggers out on the table first. Make sure she really understands what you're saying. Then enlist her help finding a solution.
posted by jon1270 at 8:52 AM on January 26, 2011
Do a little reading about Active Listening, which is a technique that will structure such conversations. If you're trying to get something across, you'll state it in simple terms with lots of 'I' statements, e.g. I feel X when you do Y. She'll then reflect it back to you to make sure she's understood, e.g. So you're saying that when I do Y, you feel X. Is that right?
You might also want to check out Getting the Love You Want, which includes a detailed method for structuring dialogue around challenging topics, complete with empathy and problem-solving.
FWIW, it sounds like you might be pushing your luck with the "...and I need us to Z to deal with it" part of your talk. Your feelings are one thing. The solution is a separate issue. Your partner is not obligated to accept your particular solution (or any solution, really) just because you feel a certain way. Get the feelings and triggers out on the table first. Make sure she really understands what you're saying. Then enlist her help finding a solution.
posted by jon1270 at 8:52 AM on January 26, 2011
Don't blame yourself for her not understanding the problem. She needs to try to understand as hard as you try to explain. I think you may need to let her know that you feel dismissed and that she needs to try harder.
On your end, assuming she's acting in good faith, it might help to start by first giving a succinct summary of the problem. Boil it down to something simple. e.g. Instead of a nuanced four paragraph explanation, "I feel like you're being dismissive when I bring up a problem." It doesn't matter if it's a perfect encapsulation of the issue - it is easy to grasp and you can clarify later. Then, explicitly ask for assurance that she is going to try to understand your elaboration in good faith. This may stop her from pulling the "I don't understand" trigger so quickly, and also make you less flustered while you explain.
posted by ignignokt at 8:53 AM on January 26, 2011
On your end, assuming she's acting in good faith, it might help to start by first giving a succinct summary of the problem. Boil it down to something simple. e.g. Instead of a nuanced four paragraph explanation, "I feel like you're being dismissive when I bring up a problem." It doesn't matter if it's a perfect encapsulation of the issue - it is easy to grasp and you can clarify later. Then, explicitly ask for assurance that she is going to try to understand your elaboration in good faith. This may stop her from pulling the "I don't understand" trigger so quickly, and also make you less flustered while you explain.
posted by ignignokt at 8:53 AM on January 26, 2011
If I were you, I would ask myself how I would see the situation if it were anyone other than my partner in her position.
If communication is "refused" whenever you try to discuss your needs, that's a red flag.
posted by marimeko at 8:55 AM on January 26, 2011
If communication is "refused" whenever you try to discuss your needs, that's a red flag.
posted by marimeko at 8:55 AM on January 26, 2011
Sometimes I will react like your partner when I feel like someone is trying to be coy in alluding to something that I'm supposed to guess, or is trying to get me to say a certain thing so that he doesn't have to come out and say it himself, or is trying to get me to volunteer to do something so that he doesn't have to ask me to do it. I find these behaviors really frustrating and I will try to get the person to clarify what it is they actually expect of me in response.
Of course, this is a so-called Guess/Ask thing—I'm sure there are other people who would find it overly blunt to be asked flat-out to do something and would prefer to receive hints that they are free to tactfully ignore rather than having to explicitly turn down a request.
posted by enn at 8:55 AM on January 26, 2011 [6 favorites]
Of course, this is a so-called Guess/Ask thing—I'm sure there are other people who would find it overly blunt to be asked flat-out to do something and would prefer to receive hints that they are free to tactfully ignore rather than having to explicitly turn down a request.
posted by enn at 8:55 AM on January 26, 2011 [6 favorites]
Personal anecdote...may not be true in your case; but I had a tempestuous relationship with an academic well on his way to intelligencia, who would do the same thing. I include the descriptive because he was incredibly brilliant; was able to decipher undergraduate babble and could translate the throaty mutterings of the regents, and yet, somehow, when I raised an issue/problem/something he wanted to avoid; he suddenly became Mr. PassiveAggressive ConfusedPants.
He'd sit down, elbows on his knees, chin perched on his steepled fingers, and tilt his head like the RCA dog anytime I tried to suggest that perhaps my needs had parity, or that there were things in the relationship I would like to see changed. It was crazy making when he would act as though I could not clearly communicate my message.
I traded him in for an programmer.
posted by dejah420 at 8:57 AM on January 26, 2011 [39 favorites]
He'd sit down, elbows on his knees, chin perched on his steepled fingers, and tilt his head like the RCA dog anytime I tried to suggest that perhaps my needs had parity, or that there were things in the relationship I would like to see changed. It was crazy making when he would act as though I could not clearly communicate my message.
I traded him in for an programmer.
posted by dejah420 at 8:57 AM on January 26, 2011 [39 favorites]
She may not be doing it deliberately. I think a great deal of manipulation is unconscious and unintentional -- a situation makes a person so uncomfortable, they slip into behaviors that have made that situation go away in the past, and "I don't understand" makes the situation go away.
She may also be acting out of her own damage -- she may have a previous relationship (perhaps in her family of origin) where the kind of "let's work on this together" approach was a front for other dynamics. So "I don't understand" may be because she doesn't believe, on some level, that the conversation about X, Y, Z is actually about X, Y, or Z. If that's the case, then she has to be the person to say, "I think this conversation is really about A, B, C." That's probably not going to happen unless you have the meta-conversation.
Also, the more specific and concrete you make your requests, the harder it becomes for her to say, "I don't understand." That can help tease apart problems of relative abstraction, conscious and unconscious manipulation. All together, I think "write out a variation of this question and ask her to read it" is a good plan.
posted by endless_forms at 8:59 AM on January 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
She may also be acting out of her own damage -- she may have a previous relationship (perhaps in her family of origin) where the kind of "let's work on this together" approach was a front for other dynamics. So "I don't understand" may be because she doesn't believe, on some level, that the conversation about X, Y, Z is actually about X, Y, or Z. If that's the case, then she has to be the person to say, "I think this conversation is really about A, B, C." That's probably not going to happen unless you have the meta-conversation.
Also, the more specific and concrete you make your requests, the harder it becomes for her to say, "I don't understand." That can help tease apart problems of relative abstraction, conscious and unconscious manipulation. All together, I think "write out a variation of this question and ask her to read it" is a good plan.
posted by endless_forms at 8:59 AM on January 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
It's hard to give a helpful answer without more specifics from you, more about your relationship history together, and so forth. But if you say to her "I feel X," and she responds, "I don't understand what you mean by that," then she is either saying:
(1) she truly doesn't intellectually comprehend the meaning of your words -- which sounds unlikely
(2) she understands your words but she doesn't understand why you feel that way; she wouldn't feel X if you did Y, so she doesn't understand why you feel X when she does Y.
I try to ask for feedback while I'm talking, but then I get accused of condescending.
This is odd; why does she take it as condescending when you're asking for help? I could understand her taking it as condescending if you're trying to help her, but you're the one asking for help. Somehow she seems to interpret your asking for help as the reverse. Also, if she feels condescended to, it sounds like she has some insecurities.
Again, though, more specifics would be really helpful.
posted by Tin Man at 9:03 AM on January 26, 2011
(1) she truly doesn't intellectually comprehend the meaning of your words -- which sounds unlikely
(2) she understands your words but she doesn't understand why you feel that way; she wouldn't feel X if you did Y, so she doesn't understand why you feel X when she does Y.
I try to ask for feedback while I'm talking, but then I get accused of condescending.
This is odd; why does she take it as condescending when you're asking for help? I could understand her taking it as condescending if you're trying to help her, but you're the one asking for help. Somehow she seems to interpret your asking for help as the reverse. Also, if she feels condescended to, it sounds like she has some insecurities.
Again, though, more specifics would be really helpful.
posted by Tin Man at 9:03 AM on January 26, 2011
"I feel X when you do Y, and I need us to Z to deal with it."
One of the most helpful pieces of advice I picked up about relationships is to make requests instead of complaints. "I feel X when you do Y" is a complaint, no matter how nicely or carefully you phrase it. It tends to put your partner instinctively on the defensive and the conversation becomes about whether she really does Y or whether you're "right" to feel X, etc. which is a discussion about who's done wrong and who's been wronged.
Instead, change up the order and start by asking for Z. If she wants an explanation, you can then get into X and Y, but the focus is really on Z. Then you're simply making a request and can hopefully avoid that whole dynamic.
Note the difference between the conversation following "when you leave your dishes out, I feel angry and neglected" and that following "could you please put your dishes in the dishwasher when you're done with them?" The latter allows her to agree without even implicitly admitting having done anything wrong.
posted by callmejay at 9:03 AM on January 26, 2011 [29 favorites]
One of the most helpful pieces of advice I picked up about relationships is to make requests instead of complaints. "I feel X when you do Y" is a complaint, no matter how nicely or carefully you phrase it. It tends to put your partner instinctively on the defensive and the conversation becomes about whether she really does Y or whether you're "right" to feel X, etc. which is a discussion about who's done wrong and who's been wronged.
Instead, change up the order and start by asking for Z. If she wants an explanation, you can then get into X and Y, but the focus is really on Z. Then you're simply making a request and can hopefully avoid that whole dynamic.
Note the difference between the conversation following "when you leave your dishes out, I feel angry and neglected" and that following "could you please put your dishes in the dishwasher when you're done with them?" The latter allows her to agree without even implicitly admitting having done anything wrong.
posted by callmejay at 9:03 AM on January 26, 2011 [29 favorites]
I'm in favor of seconding the benefit of the doubt, and I'm seconding the abstract/literal distinction or some similar distinct difference in ways of organizing information. People with a lot of empathy, like you are describing, are often people who are very very good at intuiting from concrete data . Tiny details of factual expression, posture, long term behavior, etc give them a sense of personality that they "know" but can never fully describe. However it sounds from your post like you're more comfortable speaking in abstractions. In this case what's going on is that instead of giving her the raw data and letting her build her own understandings from it (which she is good at) you're giving her your analysis and asking her to convert abstract analysis into her own patterns of organization (which is something she may not be good at). It might be very helpful for her to understand if you show her the data. Walk her through a story of a specific instance, with all the details left in, and how it played out as a concrete example of what you're talking about. Then work on building connections between that raw story and your analysis.
With what little you've given us here, however, the literal/abstract distinction is only one possibility among many. We don't know enough about her to explain this. There may be other distinctions that could be causing this problem such as subtle differences in dialectal semantic categories, or it is possible that she is just trying to belittle and dismiss you as way way of asserting control, as others have hypothesized. However, given the paucity of data, I suggest that it is a bit early in the analysis to suggest that you give up on this relationship. There are many other possibilities.
Instead, try decentering (taking on her thought patterns and her point of view to the exclusion of your own) and take as legitimately valid that she doesn't understand what you're talking about, and then construct from what you know about her, her point of view and why it might be reasonable thing for her to honestly say.
posted by yeolcoatl at 9:05 AM on January 26, 2011
With what little you've given us here, however, the literal/abstract distinction is only one possibility among many. We don't know enough about her to explain this. There may be other distinctions that could be causing this problem such as subtle differences in dialectal semantic categories, or it is possible that she is just trying to belittle and dismiss you as way way of asserting control, as others have hypothesized. However, given the paucity of data, I suggest that it is a bit early in the analysis to suggest that you give up on this relationship. There are many other possibilities.
Instead, try decentering (taking on her thought patterns and her point of view to the exclusion of your own) and take as legitimately valid that she doesn't understand what you're talking about, and then construct from what you know about her, her point of view and why it might be reasonable thing for her to honestly say.
posted by yeolcoatl at 9:05 AM on January 26, 2011
I recommend two things:
1. Check out this book: Getting the Love you Want by Harville Hendrix. Disclaimer - I am NOT someone who reads relationship books, nor would I have thought I'd be someone who would recommend one. But my partner and I have had some issues to work out recently, and we decided to see a couples counselor. The main thing we worked on with said counselor was how to have an open, honest dialogue, wherein each party was open to what the other had to say. The main dialogue process we worked on, called an Imago dialogue, came from this book. Given what you've described, I think this will be extremely helpful to you. It goes something like this:
- You ask your partner if she's available for a discussion. If she is, she says yes. If not, she says no, and you try again later.
- You say a very specific statement about what you, and only you, are feeling, being careful not to project anything on to her. Keep it shortish, otherwise shit gets complicated (don't worry, you'll have an opportunity to add to it later).
- Your partner repeats what you said, without editorializing - she literally repeats what you just said, and then asks you if she got it right. If not, you say "you got this part, but there's also this" and tell her what she missed. She then tries again. Once she gets it right, you say something to indicate this, like "yes, you heard me fully" or whatever. Then she asks "is there more?"
- If there's more (and this is the opportunity I referred to above), you tell her the next part.
- Repeat, following all the steps above (you say something, she repeats until she's really heard you, you affirm this, she asks if there's more), until you've gotten out everything you need to say. When she asks if there's more, you say "no."
- Now it's her turn to validate you. She gives a summary of everything you've just said, and she is not allowed to project her opinions or any bullshit in this summary. This is her way of showing you she gets it. And then she takes it one step further and tries to relate.
- She now empathizes with you, and thinks about what you just said and why you feel the way you've told her you feel. She relates to you, she comes to a place of understanding, she gets what you're talking about and sees herself in it. With practice, and if she commits, she'll see a much bigger picture as well.
After, and only after, typing all this out, I decided to search for a summary of this online. Of course one exists, but seeing as I've put all this effort in, I'm not going to delete. You can read more details (which I really hope will be helpful) here: Imago explained
2. Go to a couples counselor who has experience with this stuff and LGBTQ relationships. Have these conversations in front of your counselor. They can be a ref, so to speak, until your partner pulls her head out of her ass. And no offense, but I'm firmly in the camp of everyone else who has responded so far - she's doing this on purpose. Who knows why - there could be a million reasons. But for whatever reason, she's choosing to dismiss you, and she's choosing to not give a shit about that. So practice with a professional.
If she can't commit to having open, honest dialogues, to really being a partner in your relationship, you're in for a lifetime of feeling worthless and bonkers. Your choice. Best of luck to you, and kudos for reaching out for help.
posted by binocularfight at 9:12 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
1. Check out this book: Getting the Love you Want by Harville Hendrix. Disclaimer - I am NOT someone who reads relationship books, nor would I have thought I'd be someone who would recommend one. But my partner and I have had some issues to work out recently, and we decided to see a couples counselor. The main thing we worked on with said counselor was how to have an open, honest dialogue, wherein each party was open to what the other had to say. The main dialogue process we worked on, called an Imago dialogue, came from this book. Given what you've described, I think this will be extremely helpful to you. It goes something like this:
- You ask your partner if she's available for a discussion. If she is, she says yes. If not, she says no, and you try again later.
- You say a very specific statement about what you, and only you, are feeling, being careful not to project anything on to her. Keep it shortish, otherwise shit gets complicated (don't worry, you'll have an opportunity to add to it later).
- Your partner repeats what you said, without editorializing - she literally repeats what you just said, and then asks you if she got it right. If not, you say "you got this part, but there's also this" and tell her what she missed. She then tries again. Once she gets it right, you say something to indicate this, like "yes, you heard me fully" or whatever. Then she asks "is there more?"
- If there's more (and this is the opportunity I referred to above), you tell her the next part.
- Repeat, following all the steps above (you say something, she repeats until she's really heard you, you affirm this, she asks if there's more), until you've gotten out everything you need to say. When she asks if there's more, you say "no."
- Now it's her turn to validate you. She gives a summary of everything you've just said, and she is not allowed to project her opinions or any bullshit in this summary. This is her way of showing you she gets it. And then she takes it one step further and tries to relate.
- She now empathizes with you, and thinks about what you just said and why you feel the way you've told her you feel. She relates to you, she comes to a place of understanding, she gets what you're talking about and sees herself in it. With practice, and if she commits, she'll see a much bigger picture as well.
After, and only after, typing all this out, I decided to search for a summary of this online. Of course one exists, but seeing as I've put all this effort in, I'm not going to delete. You can read more details (which I really hope will be helpful) here: Imago explained
2. Go to a couples counselor who has experience with this stuff and LGBTQ relationships. Have these conversations in front of your counselor. They can be a ref, so to speak, until your partner pulls her head out of her ass. And no offense, but I'm firmly in the camp of everyone else who has responded so far - she's doing this on purpose. Who knows why - there could be a million reasons. But for whatever reason, she's choosing to dismiss you, and she's choosing to not give a shit about that. So practice with a professional.
If she can't commit to having open, honest dialogues, to really being a partner in your relationship, you're in for a lifetime of feeling worthless and bonkers. Your choice. Best of luck to you, and kudos for reaching out for help.
posted by binocularfight at 9:12 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
I recognise myself in the way you describe your partner's role in your conversations. In my case, it's alexithymia related to autism- when you say your partner has 'plenty of empathy', is that in a general sense, or an intuitive and specific one?
posted by malusmoriendumest at 9:15 AM on January 26, 2011
posted by malusmoriendumest at 9:15 AM on January 26, 2011
I would also recommend against the "just do Z" without any explanation. I know I would feel like it's bossy, and just be resentful. Rather, building better communication needs to focus on communicating your reasons in a format that she is familiar with.
posted by yeolcoatl at 9:16 AM on January 26, 2011
posted by yeolcoatl at 9:16 AM on January 26, 2011
Emotions can be hard to articulate. It's possible she truly doesn't understand what you're talking about. It's her unwillingness to try to understand that's the problem.
It sounds like you're already asking "what don't you understand?" Try asking her "how are you interpreting this?" Instead of getting stuck on a detail or odd word choice, ask her to summarize your request in her own words, and figure out what the difference is. If she's willing to do this, you'll both get better at communicating your needs.
On preview, I think callmejay has it. "I feel X when you do Y" usually comes across as "I'm hurt and it's your fault" with a healthy dose of pop-psychology condescension. If you do use that construction, make sure X is a positive feeling. "I feel cared for when you wash the dishes" goes over a lot better than "I feel neglected when you don't wash the dishes."
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:18 AM on January 26, 2011 [3 favorites]
It sounds like you're already asking "what don't you understand?" Try asking her "how are you interpreting this?" Instead of getting stuck on a detail or odd word choice, ask her to summarize your request in her own words, and figure out what the difference is. If she's willing to do this, you'll both get better at communicating your needs.
On preview, I think callmejay has it. "I feel X when you do Y" usually comes across as "I'm hurt and it's your fault" with a healthy dose of pop-psychology condescension. If you do use that construction, make sure X is a positive feeling. "I feel cared for when you wash the dishes" goes over a lot better than "I feel neglected when you don't wash the dishes."
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:18 AM on January 26, 2011 [3 favorites]
To add a little to what yeolcoatl just said. An example won't always be available but try evoking for her a shared memory of a time when you, together, experienced an event and shared the same feelings in response to it. "Remember that time when so-and-so blew us off/ let us down/ turned us away? How we both had feeling X? That is what I am experiencing now."
posted by hellboundforcheddar at 9:24 AM on January 26, 2011
posted by hellboundforcheddar at 9:24 AM on January 26, 2011
"Perhaps you could ask me some questions, so that we could discuss this issue and find a resolution that works for both of us. "
"Would you rephrase what I said, so I can try to see where my communication was unsuccessful?"
posted by theora55 at 9:26 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Would you rephrase what I said, so I can try to see where my communication was unsuccessful?"
posted by theora55 at 9:26 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
I was on the other end of this problem. I second the recommendation for active listening. It's a powerful tool for communication in relationships.
Listening is not about "sitting back" and then just claim you don't understand. This is passive listening, not communicating. But sometimes until you actually do the active listening exercises, you don't "get" that you're not listening at all. With me, the most helpful thing was repeating almost verbatim what I heard -- "So you're saying that you feel X, is that right?"
It felt contrived at the beginning, but it totally changed the way we communicated. I am still learning. And now we feel not only like lovers, but like pals, co-conspirators, confidants. We became very skillful at conflict solving.
posted by TheGoodBlood at 9:30 AM on January 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
Listening is not about "sitting back" and then just claim you don't understand. This is passive listening, not communicating. But sometimes until you actually do the active listening exercises, you don't "get" that you're not listening at all. With me, the most helpful thing was repeating almost verbatim what I heard -- "So you're saying that you feel X, is that right?"
It felt contrived at the beginning, but it totally changed the way we communicated. I am still learning. And now we feel not only like lovers, but like pals, co-conspirators, confidants. We became very skillful at conflict solving.
posted by TheGoodBlood at 9:30 AM on January 26, 2011 [2 favorites]
"I don't understand."
"Oh cut it with the bullshit. Quit it."
posted by notsnot at 10:02 AM on January 26, 2011 [7 favorites]
"Oh cut it with the bullshit. Quit it."
posted by notsnot at 10:02 AM on January 26, 2011 [7 favorites]
Sorry for the repeat commenting, but I'd like to say I mostly agree with these 3 comments by 3 different people, all of whom have interestingly punctured the conventional wisdom that "I feel ___ when you ___" statements are the most effective:
1. If my partner would behave this way, I would at some point say - "Look, it doesn't matter whether you understand/get this - I just want you to DO X", and then give very specific instructions as to what X is. This may sound a bit harsh, but is usually received well (better than "I feel..." statements"!).
2. "I feel X when you do Y" is a complaint, no matter how nicely or carefully you phrase it. It tends to put your partner instinctively on the defensive and the conversation becomes about whether she really does Y or whether you're "right" to feel X, etc. which is a discussion about who's done wrong and who's been wronged. ...
Instead, change up the order and start by asking for Z. ...
Note the difference between the conversation following "when you leave your dishes out, I feel angry and neglected" and that following "could you please put your dishes in the dishwasher when you're done with them?" The latter allows her to agree without even implicitly admitting having done anything wrong.
3. On preview, I think callmejay has it. "I feel X when you do Y" usually comes across as "I'm hurt and it's your fault" with a healthy dose of pop-psychology condescension.
However, I find the phrasing in comment #2 much more tactful than the phrasing in #1. Asking nicely for things can be effective. Commanding your partner to do something is generally not good relationship behavior.
posted by John Cohen at 10:12 AM on January 26, 2011
1. If my partner would behave this way, I would at some point say - "Look, it doesn't matter whether you understand/get this - I just want you to DO X", and then give very specific instructions as to what X is. This may sound a bit harsh, but is usually received well (better than "I feel..." statements"!).
2. "I feel X when you do Y" is a complaint, no matter how nicely or carefully you phrase it. It tends to put your partner instinctively on the defensive and the conversation becomes about whether she really does Y or whether you're "right" to feel X, etc. which is a discussion about who's done wrong and who's been wronged. ...
Instead, change up the order and start by asking for Z. ...
Note the difference between the conversation following "when you leave your dishes out, I feel angry and neglected" and that following "could you please put your dishes in the dishwasher when you're done with them?" The latter allows her to agree without even implicitly admitting having done anything wrong.
3. On preview, I think callmejay has it. "I feel X when you do Y" usually comes across as "I'm hurt and it's your fault" with a healthy dose of pop-psychology condescension.
However, I find the phrasing in comment #2 much more tactful than the phrasing in #1. Asking nicely for things can be effective. Commanding your partner to do something is generally not good relationship behavior.
posted by John Cohen at 10:12 AM on January 26, 2011
Sorry, but if she habitually claims not to understand what you're saying, without giving a clue as to what specifically isn't making sense to her, I think she probably is deliberately dismissing what you have to say.
Or you're just not making any sense.
posted by coolguymichael at 10:21 AM on January 26, 2011
Or you're just not making any sense.
posted by coolguymichael at 10:21 AM on January 26, 2011
Or you're just not making any sense.
It is possible she might be making no sense on any given occasion, but that's why I said "habitually." How likely is it that the OP is consistently making so little sense that her partner doesn't even understand her well enough to explain what she doesn't understand? I'd say: not very likely.
posted by John Cohen at 10:25 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
It is possible she might be making no sense on any given occasion, but that's why I said "habitually." How likely is it that the OP is consistently making so little sense that her partner doesn't even understand her well enough to explain what she doesn't understand? I'd say: not very likely.
posted by John Cohen at 10:25 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
Are you sure there's not an underlying neuropsych issue-- I hear the alexithymia bit upthread. The "let's analyze every semantic nuance of what you just said, because I don't get it" part sounds like a processing disorder or other speech-language concern.
Assuming, of course, she's not doing it due to a straight psychological issue or to be cruel. You will likely need queer-friendly pros to unpack the entirety of the issue, if you both consider it worth unpacking.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 10:34 AM on January 26, 2011
Assuming, of course, she's not doing it due to a straight psychological issue or to be cruel. You will likely need queer-friendly pros to unpack the entirety of the issue, if you both consider it worth unpacking.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 10:34 AM on January 26, 2011
John Cohen: 3 different people, all of whom have interestingly punctured the conventional wisdom that "I feel ___ when you ___" statements are the most effective
This is interesting to me too, though I'm less enthused about the puncturing. I suppose it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you're just trying to get someone to DO something, then sure, asking them directly and framing the request in noncritical terms is the way to go. But not every conversation is about the dishes, and sometimes the dishes aren't about the dishes either. Bigger issues come up. The structured "I feel" dialogues are important tools for unpacking feelings and triggers that neither party may fully understand at the outset of the conversation.
"I feel x when you do y" can trigger defensiveness, but that doesn't meant the literal statement is untrue or unimportant. Done right, there is no blame in such a statement; the whole I-statement thing is all about taking responsibility for one's own feelings (as opposed to "When you do Y, it MAKES me feel X" which is not so good). For the other party, empathy doesn't mean "Gosh, I fucked up and I'm sorry," it means "That makes sense. I can see how you might feel that way."
posted by jon1270 at 10:35 AM on January 26, 2011
This is interesting to me too, though I'm less enthused about the puncturing. I suppose it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you're just trying to get someone to DO something, then sure, asking them directly and framing the request in noncritical terms is the way to go. But not every conversation is about the dishes, and sometimes the dishes aren't about the dishes either. Bigger issues come up. The structured "I feel" dialogues are important tools for unpacking feelings and triggers that neither party may fully understand at the outset of the conversation.
"I feel x when you do y" can trigger defensiveness, but that doesn't meant the literal statement is untrue or unimportant. Done right, there is no blame in such a statement; the whole I-statement thing is all about taking responsibility for one's own feelings (as opposed to "When you do Y, it MAKES me feel X" which is not so good). For the other party, empathy doesn't mean "Gosh, I fucked up and I'm sorry," it means "That makes sense. I can see how you might feel that way."
posted by jon1270 at 10:35 AM on January 26, 2011
Establish your points one by one. Explain the A, take questions about it, be sure she understands and accepts it... and then move on to B. Slowly.
Assemble your "argument" from small pieces that she can/will/must accept and understand, and if she still doesn't understand the overall position at the end of all that... then no, she's really not trying.
posted by rokusan at 10:45 AM on January 26, 2011
Assemble your "argument" from small pieces that she can/will/must accept and understand, and if she still doesn't understand the overall position at the end of all that... then no, she's really not trying.
posted by rokusan at 10:45 AM on January 26, 2011
Perhaps this is simply a communication problem. In that case, you're lucky: a few sessions with a relationship counselor can teach you both some better skills. On the other hand, feeling dismissed, cut off at the knees, demoralized and crazy are classic symptoms of verbal abuse. I suggest you read The Verbally Abusive Relationship and see if it resonates.
posted by Wordwoman at 10:48 AM on January 26, 2011
posted by Wordwoman at 10:48 AM on January 26, 2011
This sounds like the exact situation where a couples therapist is needed. They can listen to the conversation and help explain what you're saying (if necessary) and/or point out that your partner is being a passive aggressive asshole.
posted by smoakes at 11:07 AM on January 26, 2011
posted by smoakes at 11:07 AM on January 26, 2011
I actually laughed a little bit because my super-literal litigator husband does this ALL THE TIME. And it drives me NUTS NUTS NUTS, but we have survived it and we have strategies. Here's the key point to keep in mind:
She is engaging in an enormously successful argumentative strategy.
I mean, look, she's "winning" every argument you guys are having. But beyond that, dragging off the main point into tiny little details and bickering over details is a GREAT strategy because humans are not that good at rational argument. My husband can overthrow someone's painstakingly constructed court case that way, by hacking at one tiny piece of the foundation until he brings the whole thing crashing down.
My husband does NOT do this to me on purpose. He does it because a) it's his job and he's crap at switching it off when he comes home; b) it's an enormously successful argumentative strategy; and c) it's a great avoidance strategy. NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE DELIBERATE. He's not TRYING to manipulate me or make me feel bad. It's just an unpleasant byproduct of attempting to avoid conflict by arguing me into the ground.
For us, the really key point was that he had to understand he was doing it and why it was maddening for me. Couples counseling is good for this. Me pointing it out repeatedly was helpful. Me complaining that he was litigating me was helpful. (I'm a lawyer too.) Me refusing to engage with it was very helpful; I'll say, "You're litigating me, and that isn't the point I'm trying to make. I need you to listen to my actual point even if you think I'm wrong." He really has to remind himself that emotions are not logical and EVEN IF I'm interpreting something in a mistaken or even totally crazypants way, I am STILL UPSET ABOUT IT. And arguing with me that I am mistaken is likely to make me MORE upset, not less upset.
Sometimes we have to sit down and have a Very Serious Talk where I really struggle to keep us on point and remind him repeatedly not to use his arguing skills as a defense mechanism. Other times, I just give him a Look and I tease him, "Is that REALLY the key point here?" or "Is this REALLY the hill you want to die on?" and he sheepishly says, "No, sorry" and we go back to the main point. But what's really important is that we both recognize that he does it, so that he can pull himself up short when I point it out, and so that I can laugh it off and realize it isn't personal. It's a much better thing now that we can joke about it from time to time. Now if only I could stop interpreting things in a crazypants way .... ;)
But yeah, specific examples would help a lot.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:19 AM on January 26, 2011 [13 favorites]
She is engaging in an enormously successful argumentative strategy.
I mean, look, she's "winning" every argument you guys are having. But beyond that, dragging off the main point into tiny little details and bickering over details is a GREAT strategy because humans are not that good at rational argument. My husband can overthrow someone's painstakingly constructed court case that way, by hacking at one tiny piece of the foundation until he brings the whole thing crashing down.
My husband does NOT do this to me on purpose. He does it because a) it's his job and he's crap at switching it off when he comes home; b) it's an enormously successful argumentative strategy; and c) it's a great avoidance strategy. NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE DELIBERATE. He's not TRYING to manipulate me or make me feel bad. It's just an unpleasant byproduct of attempting to avoid conflict by arguing me into the ground.
For us, the really key point was that he had to understand he was doing it and why it was maddening for me. Couples counseling is good for this. Me pointing it out repeatedly was helpful. Me complaining that he was litigating me was helpful. (I'm a lawyer too.) Me refusing to engage with it was very helpful; I'll say, "You're litigating me, and that isn't the point I'm trying to make. I need you to listen to my actual point even if you think I'm wrong." He really has to remind himself that emotions are not logical and EVEN IF I'm interpreting something in a mistaken or even totally crazypants way, I am STILL UPSET ABOUT IT. And arguing with me that I am mistaken is likely to make me MORE upset, not less upset.
Sometimes we have to sit down and have a Very Serious Talk where I really struggle to keep us on point and remind him repeatedly not to use his arguing skills as a defense mechanism. Other times, I just give him a Look and I tease him, "Is that REALLY the key point here?" or "Is this REALLY the hill you want to die on?" and he sheepishly says, "No, sorry" and we go back to the main point. But what's really important is that we both recognize that he does it, so that he can pull himself up short when I point it out, and so that I can laugh it off and realize it isn't personal. It's a much better thing now that we can joke about it from time to time. Now if only I could stop interpreting things in a crazypants way .... ;)
But yeah, specific examples would help a lot.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:19 AM on January 26, 2011 [13 favorites]
You say she doesn't have this problem with others. My suggestion would be that you observe the communication style of one of these others for a while, and then imitate it. See if that helps.
If it doesn't, try another.
posted by tel3path at 11:22 AM on January 26, 2011
If it doesn't, try another.
posted by tel3path at 11:22 AM on January 26, 2011
I teach college students. Often, the come to class not having done their work, or not having done the reading. When pressed, they will sometimes tell the truth, but usually offer a variety of excuses. Guess what the most common excuse is?
"I didn't get it."
Meaning, I guess, that they didn't understand the assignment. Now, maybe sometimes I'm not as clear in writing assignments as I could be. But most students do seem to be able to understand the assignment, and these students typically can't point to something specific that they didn't understand. And they rarely have larger reading comprehension issues. So, are they lying to me? Not exactly. What I've come to believe, after years of experience, is that some part of them saw that not understanding the assignment was a reason not to do the work, and so they didn't try that hard to understand it. They could have read it over a few times, asked a friend in the class, hell, asked me for help, but they didn't do that. Instead they immediately threw up their hands, said, "I can't do this now," and proceeded to not do it. I don't think they realized that this is what they were doing.
This, it strikes me, is what your partner is doing. She's not lying to you about not understanding you, not exactly. But some part of her recognizes that understanding you will require something of her, something that she doesn't want to do, and so she's not trying that hard to understand you. I think she needs to be called out on this. Have you explained to her that this behavior is part of a pattern? If you can get her to see that, then when it happens again you can say "you're doing that thing again," which might short-circuit this impulse.
posted by Ragged Richard at 11:23 AM on January 26, 2011 [15 favorites]
"I didn't get it."
Meaning, I guess, that they didn't understand the assignment. Now, maybe sometimes I'm not as clear in writing assignments as I could be. But most students do seem to be able to understand the assignment, and these students typically can't point to something specific that they didn't understand. And they rarely have larger reading comprehension issues. So, are they lying to me? Not exactly. What I've come to believe, after years of experience, is that some part of them saw that not understanding the assignment was a reason not to do the work, and so they didn't try that hard to understand it. They could have read it over a few times, asked a friend in the class, hell, asked me for help, but they didn't do that. Instead they immediately threw up their hands, said, "I can't do this now," and proceeded to not do it. I don't think they realized that this is what they were doing.
This, it strikes me, is what your partner is doing. She's not lying to you about not understanding you, not exactly. But some part of her recognizes that understanding you will require something of her, something that she doesn't want to do, and so she's not trying that hard to understand you. I think she needs to be called out on this. Have you explained to her that this behavior is part of a pattern? If you can get her to see that, then when it happens again you can say "you're doing that thing again," which might short-circuit this impulse.
posted by Ragged Richard at 11:23 AM on January 26, 2011 [15 favorites]
I'm with notsnot. This reads to me like a power move so that she doesn't have to understand unless you speak to her in the precise manner that she requires. It's much more mature to bounce back and forth with interpretations of what the other is saying. This is reinforced the world over in therapy when people are encouraged to address differences by saying "What I'm hearing is..." Your partner is (currently) not interested in understand you, or else she would make the attempt to understand rather than letting your extended explanations bounce off of her with a wave of the hand. "Nope, your words are still just pops and buzzes to me. Try again." Miring your opponent in details can also be a defense mechanism. Tell her to GTFU (Grow...).
posted by rhizome at 11:38 AM on January 26, 2011
posted by rhizome at 11:38 AM on January 26, 2011
Building on what Ragged Richard says, there might be some kind of hidden shame or negative self-directed emotion she feels that she is trying to protect from you. When she says, "I don't understand," there is an implied learning/understanding deficit on her part, yet she does not take the next step to fix it. Maybe she feels emotionally stupid, and doesn't want you to think she is emotionally stupid, and so does not want to expose herself further to criticism. Whatever the argument involves might be a point of extreme insecurity for her. She has you running furiously on a stationary treadmill trying to explain yourself in new/better ways (maybe if you stand on your head! maybe if you only talk between the hours of one and three!), which directs away from delving into her own fears and insecurities. This is quite the defense mechanism. You need to cut through it and stop dancing to her tune. Either she needs to find the trust to open up and work with you, or this pattern will go on.
posted by griselda at 11:39 AM on January 26, 2011
posted by griselda at 11:39 AM on January 26, 2011
I try to ask for feedback while I'm talking, but then I get accused of condescending.
Hmm.
You know, I've been reading a lot about active listening and pop-psychology and trying to implement a lot of those strategies into arguments with the Mister. And some parts of it have worked well for me--it slows me down and forces me to carefully consider my words and not be accusatory. So that's good!
But I ran into problems implementing the second step into our conversations. You know, the part where the other person models your speech and tells you what he or she heard? I was doing a lot of asking my partner to reiterate, asking if I was being clear, and so on. And he, like, visibly hated it. One day he asked why I was doing it, and I told him, and he said that he found it patronizing--he felt put on the spot, and like it was an unfair expectation. That he generally tries to listen closely and be reasonable (and he does, I think, even though in the heat of an argument both parties can be inclined to take things out of context sometimes) and doesn't want to be put on the spot like that. That, if I feel like he's misinterpreting things, I can just stop him and clarify.
And so I've been doing that. And it's been going a lot better.
With the normal active listening script, I'm struck by something: how it's predicated on both partners being willing participants, agreeing that it's the best way to communicate and giving certain answers at certain times. If you really want to follow those guidelines, perhaps couples counseling would be a good idea. Or you can just try to talk about your argument styles outside an argument to figure out a better way to approach communication within your relationship. Having been somewhat persuaded by my husband (and knowing his personality), I can understand why he bristles against being asked to parrot back my words. We both understand the intention of such an act, and the intention is good--but I guess my point is that couples and people differ and it is somewhat unreasonable to expect every relationship to naturally conform to the same communication patterns without some communication to get you there, first.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:00 PM on January 26, 2011
Hmm.
You know, I've been reading a lot about active listening and pop-psychology and trying to implement a lot of those strategies into arguments with the Mister. And some parts of it have worked well for me--it slows me down and forces me to carefully consider my words and not be accusatory. So that's good!
But I ran into problems implementing the second step into our conversations. You know, the part where the other person models your speech and tells you what he or she heard? I was doing a lot of asking my partner to reiterate, asking if I was being clear, and so on. And he, like, visibly hated it. One day he asked why I was doing it, and I told him, and he said that he found it patronizing--he felt put on the spot, and like it was an unfair expectation. That he generally tries to listen closely and be reasonable (and he does, I think, even though in the heat of an argument both parties can be inclined to take things out of context sometimes) and doesn't want to be put on the spot like that. That, if I feel like he's misinterpreting things, I can just stop him and clarify.
And so I've been doing that. And it's been going a lot better.
With the normal active listening script, I'm struck by something: how it's predicated on both partners being willing participants, agreeing that it's the best way to communicate and giving certain answers at certain times. If you really want to follow those guidelines, perhaps couples counseling would be a good idea. Or you can just try to talk about your argument styles outside an argument to figure out a better way to approach communication within your relationship. Having been somewhat persuaded by my husband (and knowing his personality), I can understand why he bristles against being asked to parrot back my words. We both understand the intention of such an act, and the intention is good--but I guess my point is that couples and people differ and it is somewhat unreasonable to expect every relationship to naturally conform to the same communication patterns without some communication to get you there, first.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:00 PM on January 26, 2011
"I don't understand."
"Oh cut it with the bullshit. Quit it."
posted by notsnot at 1:02 PM on January 26 [3 favorites +] [!]
I'm going to second what endless_forms noted. I seriously doubt she is manipulating, bullshitting, dismissing, condescending, etc. She is reacting to some old button-pushing from way down deep and her default is "I'm not getting what you are saying." She doesn't even realize it.
posted by thinkpiece at 12:32 PM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Oh cut it with the bullshit. Quit it."
posted by notsnot at 1:02 PM on January 26 [3 favorites +] [!]
I'm going to second what endless_forms noted. I seriously doubt she is manipulating, bullshitting, dismissing, condescending, etc. She is reacting to some old button-pushing from way down deep and her default is "I'm not getting what you are saying." She doesn't even realize it.
posted by thinkpiece at 12:32 PM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
What is your emotional state when you express "something that I am needing in our relationship or a problem that needs to be dealt with?" Are you angry? Upset? Whatever it is, assuming she understands you on other occasions, whatever you are adding to the situation emotionally might be "causing" the problem by making it difficult to listen. If your partner feels accused or criticized or otherwise uncomfortable, the contents of what you're saying may be the least of your problems.
One thing you might try is to "strike while the iron is cold." That is, bring up the topic when you don't need what ever it is, or when the problem is not a problem. Do it casually as conversation rather than as a summit meeting.
posted by Obscure Reference at 12:43 PM on January 26, 2011
One thing you might try is to "strike while the iron is cold." That is, bring up the topic when you don't need what ever it is, or when the problem is not a problem. Do it casually as conversation rather than as a summit meeting.
posted by Obscure Reference at 12:43 PM on January 26, 2011
PhoBWanKenobi: "But I ran into problems implementing the second step into our conversations. You know, the part where the other person models your speech and tells you what he or she heard? I was doing a lot of asking my partner to reiterate, asking if I was being clear, and so on. And he, like, visibly hated it. One day he asked why I was doing it,"
Bwuhh? If my partner started doing some communication script like this with me without mentioning to me beforehand how it worked or why they wanted to do it, I would certainly be pissed off, too.
So I would suggest that if the OP does decide to try this out, that they please let their partner know what they are doing ahead of time.
posted by Grither at 1:09 PM on January 26, 2011
Bwuhh? If my partner started doing some communication script like this with me without mentioning to me beforehand how it worked or why they wanted to do it, I would certainly be pissed off, too.
So I would suggest that if the OP does decide to try this out, that they please let their partner know what they are doing ahead of time.
posted by Grither at 1:09 PM on January 26, 2011
Yes, I'll admit that I was being stupid there. :P
But my point is: all of the advice given here, and indeed, a lot of the advice given online about active dialog is presented as if it's, say, easy or seamless to implement and with the understanding that both partners will be willing and game. She might be unwilling, or this method might not work for her; it sounds like OP is already modeling one half of active dialog, but you can't necessarily assume that your partner will change her behavior automatically, and I'd suggest that this might be unrealistic (as plans predicated on the other party changing their behavior often is).
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:21 PM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
But my point is: all of the advice given here, and indeed, a lot of the advice given online about active dialog is presented as if it's, say, easy or seamless to implement and with the understanding that both partners will be willing and game. She might be unwilling, or this method might not work for her; it sounds like OP is already modeling one half of active dialog, but you can't necessarily assume that your partner will change her behavior automatically, and I'd suggest that this might be unrealistic (as plans predicated on the other party changing their behavior often is).
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:21 PM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
My first reaction was not at all like what most of the comments here suggest... Is there any chance she's using "I don't understand" to mean "Please, tell me more"?
If you're being particularly concise, she might want you to keep going. And maybe - for whatever reason - those are the words she uses.
posted by booth at 1:23 PM on January 26, 2011
If you're being particularly concise, she might want you to keep going. And maybe - for whatever reason - those are the words she uses.
posted by booth at 1:23 PM on January 26, 2011
Very interesting comments. But whether it's misunderstanding, an unconscious coping mechanism, willful passive-aggressive behavior, neurological, alexithymia, Asperger's, or whatever — regardless, you have to ask yourself, How much do I want to be with this person who is so unresponsive to my needs?
posted by exphysicist345 at 3:16 PM on January 26, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by exphysicist345 at 3:16 PM on January 26, 2011 [3 favorites]
This sounds uncomfortably familiar. My ex used to do this to me. And yes, it made me feel like I was going crazy. He made my doubt my sanity and after a while I would just be forced to admit defeat and get over problems because I couldn't get him to engage in a productive conversation with me. This happened all the time.
Lots of people are suggesting couples counseling and books. If she agrees to work with you on that stuff, you might be ok. To me that would suggest she might not be doing this on purpose and wants to be better. Great. If you're reading all these replies and thinking "Oh God, I know she would not be interested in counseling, she hates that sort of stuff" or if she has previously declined the suggestion of counseling- then I think it's safe to say she IS avoiding the subjects, and yes, doing this on purpose. If this is the case, well, in my experience this sort of shit does NOT improve. The person who does this is winning, and you'll just get broken down until you don't even bother anymore. I was so wracked with self doubt by the end that it was very difficult to break up with him. I said it once, I'll say it again. He made me doubt my sanity. You mentioned feeling the same way. If you feel crazy at home but normal otherwise, you probably aren't crazy. Its up to you if you want to stick it out, but in my experience people don't suddenly outgrow or overcome this tactic.
posted by GastrocNemesis at 4:19 PM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
Lots of people are suggesting couples counseling and books. If she agrees to work with you on that stuff, you might be ok. To me that would suggest she might not be doing this on purpose and wants to be better. Great. If you're reading all these replies and thinking "Oh God, I know she would not be interested in counseling, she hates that sort of stuff" or if she has previously declined the suggestion of counseling- then I think it's safe to say she IS avoiding the subjects, and yes, doing this on purpose. If this is the case, well, in my experience this sort of shit does NOT improve. The person who does this is winning, and you'll just get broken down until you don't even bother anymore. I was so wracked with self doubt by the end that it was very difficult to break up with him. I said it once, I'll say it again. He made me doubt my sanity. You mentioned feeling the same way. If you feel crazy at home but normal otherwise, you probably aren't crazy. Its up to you if you want to stick it out, but in my experience people don't suddenly outgrow or overcome this tactic.
posted by GastrocNemesis at 4:19 PM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh, the problems of limited data in relationship questions.
If it were me, and it has been, that wasn't understanding, that can come from a couple of different places. The simplest is one alluded to above, where I really did just need to be told to do whatever the conversation was about. I'd get hung up in trying to figure out if the solution was really the optimal one, especially when given vague anonymous-AskMe conversational input, and it took me a while to realize that in many of these cases, it really didn't matter all that much if the ultimate solution was the optimal one, rather what was more important was showing that I trusted my partner enough to just do what she wanted in some cases without trying to first establish sound premises or anything.
However, it has also been that when my partner at the time thought she was laying out a clear case and asking for something, what she was doing was attempting to have a fight without having to be the instigator of the conflict. She wasn't really trying to give feeling statements so much as manipulate the language in order to get me to agree to things that I didn't want to, or justify her own behavior, or remove the possibility of disagreement over what we'd be doing together (or even just what I'd be doing). It was generally trying to set up an argument without being willing to carry through on having an argument, and skipping to the part where we'd all decided she was right.
In those cases, I totally retreated to either "I don't understand," when I didn't want to have a fight, or questioning her assumptions and premises right off the bat, which pretty much led to a fight every time, but from her point of view that fight was always my fault because I was attacking what undergirded her argument.
Unfortunately, I've found that this is more common in women, in part because they're socialized to avoid outright conflict and argument, even when that's the best way to resolve something. If your partner is used to regular debates, your conversation style may appear manipulative to her, and she may be trying to avoid a fight by not engaging with you over statements she thinks are flatly wrong.
She may also be using this to manipulate the terms of the debate unfairly, or there may be a fundamental communication disconnect, or you guys may just not be a good fit for each other. There's certainly plenty of other advise in this thread that's pretty good. I just wanted to point out that a lot of your question could have been written by an ex-girlfriend of mine, and that without further information, I don't think that a conclusion can be certain. And because it can't be certain, I wanted to make sure that the opposite opinion to the natural sympathies toward the asker was represented. I do hope things work out for the best for you.
posted by klangklangston at 6:00 PM on January 26, 2011
If it were me, and it has been, that wasn't understanding, that can come from a couple of different places. The simplest is one alluded to above, where I really did just need to be told to do whatever the conversation was about. I'd get hung up in trying to figure out if the solution was really the optimal one, especially when given vague anonymous-AskMe conversational input, and it took me a while to realize that in many of these cases, it really didn't matter all that much if the ultimate solution was the optimal one, rather what was more important was showing that I trusted my partner enough to just do what she wanted in some cases without trying to first establish sound premises or anything.
However, it has also been that when my partner at the time thought she was laying out a clear case and asking for something, what she was doing was attempting to have a fight without having to be the instigator of the conflict. She wasn't really trying to give feeling statements so much as manipulate the language in order to get me to agree to things that I didn't want to, or justify her own behavior, or remove the possibility of disagreement over what we'd be doing together (or even just what I'd be doing). It was generally trying to set up an argument without being willing to carry through on having an argument, and skipping to the part where we'd all decided she was right.
In those cases, I totally retreated to either "I don't understand," when I didn't want to have a fight, or questioning her assumptions and premises right off the bat, which pretty much led to a fight every time, but from her point of view that fight was always my fault because I was attacking what undergirded her argument.
Unfortunately, I've found that this is more common in women, in part because they're socialized to avoid outright conflict and argument, even when that's the best way to resolve something. If your partner is used to regular debates, your conversation style may appear manipulative to her, and she may be trying to avoid a fight by not engaging with you over statements she thinks are flatly wrong.
She may also be using this to manipulate the terms of the debate unfairly, or there may be a fundamental communication disconnect, or you guys may just not be a good fit for each other. There's certainly plenty of other advise in this thread that's pretty good. I just wanted to point out that a lot of your question could have been written by an ex-girlfriend of mine, and that without further information, I don't think that a conclusion can be certain. And because it can't be certain, I wanted to make sure that the opposite opinion to the natural sympathies toward the asker was represented. I do hope things work out for the best for you.
posted by klangklangston at 6:00 PM on January 26, 2011
Bottom line, in my view, this is about avoiding the real discussion. If you're convinced that you're doing your very best, then you need a couples therapist to troubleshoot why your conversational overtures do not create conversations that your partner can hang in there with, and to teach you both how to have meaningful dialogue with the other.
I say this not assessing fault, and fault doesn't matter. You may be Marshall Rosenberg's Mother Theresa, but if it doesn't work for your partner, it doesn't work, and you can't necessarily change that yourself. Which is why you guys need outside help.
posted by salvia at 7:46 PM on January 26, 2011
I say this not assessing fault, and fault doesn't matter. You may be Marshall Rosenberg's Mother Theresa, but if it doesn't work for your partner, it doesn't work, and you can't necessarily change that yourself. Which is why you guys need outside help.
posted by salvia at 7:46 PM on January 26, 2011
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Another thought: She might be really literal minded, while you're more abstract, thus when you try to explain things, she can't make the leap to the more abstract notions you're trying to express. But if she's understanding complicated and nuanced emotions in other people, but not you, that sounds like dismissal.
BUt it would be great if you could offer a few specific examples of actual conversations. Contact the mods via the contact link at the bottom of the page and they can update the thread for you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:41 AM on January 26, 2011 [1 favorite]