Under pressure
June 8, 2010 12:03 PM Subscribe
I have a 2006 Scion xA with 40k miles on it. I just spent $800 replacing essentially my entire emissions system due to a pressure burst and subsequent contamination. I get regular maintenance and never attempt to overfill my tank. How do I make sure this doesn't happen again?
It'd really help to know the specifics of which emissions system failed and why.
There are a number of emissions systems in the car. If you have your invoice or repair order, some of the information on it could be really helpful if you want the most accurate answer to your question.
posted by Jon-o at 12:26 PM on June 8, 2010
There are a number of emissions systems in the car. If you have your invoice or repair order, some of the information on it could be really helpful if you want the most accurate answer to your question.
posted by Jon-o at 12:26 PM on June 8, 2010
Aren't certain parts of the emissions system also required by law to covered under warranty for a much longer period of time?
posted by COD at 12:44 PM on June 8, 2010
posted by COD at 12:44 PM on June 8, 2010
Response by poster: No customizing or anything else weird. I'm probably not the best driver that ever lived, but it's in good shape otherwise- this is its first major repair. I always use the recommended gas grade.
I hope to god I didn't get robbed by the mechanics (a Toyota dealership, if it matters). I took it in because my check engine light was on, and the following error codes came up: P043E, P043F, P2401, P2402, P2419, and B1153. They reset it and drove it around for to see if it was a fluke, but the light came back on. Apparently the fuel tank filler cover was allowing leakage into the charcoal canister. They replaced the fuel tank holder, the fuel tank cover, the charcoal canister assembly, and the filter sub-assembly.
I had a car trip planned for 48 hrs after I brought the car in, and I wasn't 100% convinced that it was a good idea to drive it distances without the fix, so I went for it even though it's a pretty significant burden on me financially. I did call around to get price comparisons though.
posted by emilyd22222 at 12:45 PM on June 8, 2010
I hope to god I didn't get robbed by the mechanics (a Toyota dealership, if it matters). I took it in because my check engine light was on, and the following error codes came up: P043E, P043F, P2401, P2402, P2419, and B1153. They reset it and drove it around for to see if it was a fluke, but the light came back on. Apparently the fuel tank filler cover was allowing leakage into the charcoal canister. They replaced the fuel tank holder, the fuel tank cover, the charcoal canister assembly, and the filter sub-assembly.
I had a car trip planned for 48 hrs after I brought the car in, and I wasn't 100% convinced that it was a good idea to drive it distances without the fix, so I went for it even though it's a pretty significant burden on me financially. I did call around to get price comparisons though.
posted by emilyd22222 at 12:45 PM on June 8, 2010
Best answer: Judging from this TSB,(.pdf) it sounds like it was a manufacturing defect and is unlikely to happen again.
posted by Floydd at 12:47 PM on June 8, 2010
posted by Floydd at 12:47 PM on June 8, 2010
I just had this issue with the same car. My husband and I argued heartily with the Toyota dealership where we bought the car, because they fixed it on later VINs in that year. They knew it was a problem and DIDNT FEEL LIKE RECALLING IT. We were beyond the warranty, and they quoted me $900 to fix it. It pissed me right off, and I usually don't fight things like that.
We asked what they could do, and they told us the labor would be free. Ended up being $250. It won't happen again.
posted by kpht at 12:53 PM on June 8, 2010
We asked what they could do, and they told us the labor would be free. Ended up being $250. It won't happen again.
posted by kpht at 12:53 PM on June 8, 2010
Best answer: What happens in the EVAP (Evaporative Emissions) system is that fuel vapors are captured in a charcoal canister. Via a series of valves, solenoids, and vents, the engine computer vents those vapors into the engine under certain conditions. Old cars just vented the vapor into the atmosphere and made smog.
The canister and the valves are only designed to carry fuel vapor. The presence of liquid fuel damages them permanently. Also, the engine computer can't detect the difference between the liquid and vapor and can accidentally start purging liquid fuel into the engine, causing stalling and other performance problems. I've driven cars that would stall out in traffic because of this problem.
Given the number of components in the system that could be contaminated, I wouldn't guess that you were robbed, but rather it was better to replace them while they were accessible due to the contamination. Many EVAP components are grouped together around the gas tank and charcoal canister. If I saw a car with your car's problem and it looked like some work to get to the system in question, I'd recommend replacing some things as a precautionary measure, rather than let them fail later and do it all over again. Especially in a situation where a system wide contamination has occurred.
The most common cause of this malfunction is repeated overfilling of the gas tank. That causes the liquid fuel to force its way through some mechanical one-way-valves and contaminate the EVAP system.
posted by Jon-o at 12:59 PM on June 8, 2010
The canister and the valves are only designed to carry fuel vapor. The presence of liquid fuel damages them permanently. Also, the engine computer can't detect the difference between the liquid and vapor and can accidentally start purging liquid fuel into the engine, causing stalling and other performance problems. I've driven cars that would stall out in traffic because of this problem.
Given the number of components in the system that could be contaminated, I wouldn't guess that you were robbed, but rather it was better to replace them while they were accessible due to the contamination. Many EVAP components are grouped together around the gas tank and charcoal canister. If I saw a car with your car's problem and it looked like some work to get to the system in question, I'd recommend replacing some things as a precautionary measure, rather than let them fail later and do it all over again. Especially in a situation where a system wide contamination has occurred.
The most common cause of this malfunction is repeated overfilling of the gas tank. That causes the liquid fuel to force its way through some mechanical one-way-valves and contaminate the EVAP system.
posted by Jon-o at 12:59 PM on June 8, 2010
It would have been fine to have driven the car - the carbon canister just collects fuel fumes from venting from the tank (see here) and stops them escaping to the atmosphere. To all intents and purposes, in terms of daily use of the car they don't do a damn thing.
There is also, assuming the repair/fault has been remedied, absolutely nothing you can do to prevent the extremely unlikely event of this recurring. Don't sweat it at all.
It does sound, from kpht's post, that you may want to investigate this further to see if you should have been charged $800 for the work, though. I can't imagine it's normal for that much work to need to be done on a charcoal canister at that age.
posted by Brockles at 1:02 PM on June 8, 2010
There is also, assuming the repair/fault has been remedied, absolutely nothing you can do to prevent the extremely unlikely event of this recurring. Don't sweat it at all.
It does sound, from kpht's post, that you may want to investigate this further to see if you should have been charged $800 for the work, though. I can't imagine it's normal for that much work to need to be done on a charcoal canister at that age.
posted by Brockles at 1:02 PM on June 8, 2010
the engine computer can't detect the difference between the liquid and vapor and can accidentally start purging liquid fuel into the engine, causing stalling and other performance problems. I've driven cars that would stall out in traffic because of this problem.
This is why Jon-o is more knowledgable on the more modern car stuff (particularly emissions stuff!). We laugh in the face of emissions in the racing industry...
Mind you, I'd consider the occasional stall just 'annoying' rather than an issue. I imagine there isn't too much it'd affect once underway - steady state driving is much easier for an ECU to cope with even when outside normal parameters.
posted by Brockles at 1:05 PM on June 8, 2010
This is why Jon-o is more knowledgable on the more modern car stuff (particularly emissions stuff!). We laugh in the face of emissions in the racing industry...
Mind you, I'd consider the occasional stall just 'annoying' rather than an issue. I imagine there isn't too much it'd affect once underway - steady state driving is much easier for an ECU to cope with even when outside normal parameters.
posted by Brockles at 1:05 PM on June 8, 2010
Best answer: Also, when my CEL went on, I took it to Autozone first to get the codes. Google searched them, and came up with the info Floydd posted and more stories from a Scion forum. I know you've already paid, and it irks me to hell that Toyota pulled this on you, tried to on me, and I'm sure on a lot of other people (seriously, I am so mad for you right now!), but next time the light goes on, get it checked out yourself first.
I think the best you may be able to do is try calling up very angrily and saying that you're pretty irked that it was a manufacturing defect and you were on the hook for the whole thing when it was a known issue that they fixed on the later models of that year. If you're nice, but persistent, and threaten to take your business elsewhere, they may offer you a discount - but they've already got your money, so who knows.
posted by kpht at 1:05 PM on June 8, 2010
I think the best you may be able to do is try calling up very angrily and saying that you're pretty irked that it was a manufacturing defect and you were on the hook for the whole thing when it was a known issue that they fixed on the later models of that year. If you're nice, but persistent, and threaten to take your business elsewhere, they may offer you a discount - but they've already got your money, so who knows.
posted by kpht at 1:05 PM on June 8, 2010
Response by poster: I misspoke earlier; it cost me $694. I overestimated because there were other general maintenance repairs I made at the same time.
you may want to investigate this further to see if you should have been charged $800 for the work, though.
What would investigating it entail? I have the itemized invoice right here, if it helps to compare to kpht:
Holder, fuel tank 14.95
Cover, fuel tank 12.25
Canister assy, ch 343.25
Filter sub-assy 86.12
TOTAL PARTS 456.57
TOTAL LABOR AND PARTS 694.07
posted by emilyd22222 at 1:08 PM on June 8, 2010
you may want to investigate this further to see if you should have been charged $800 for the work, though.
What would investigating it entail? I have the itemized invoice right here, if it helps to compare to kpht:
Holder, fuel tank 14.95
Cover, fuel tank 12.25
Canister assy, ch 343.25
Filter sub-assy 86.12
TOTAL PARTS 456.57
TOTAL LABOR AND PARTS 694.07
posted by emilyd22222 at 1:08 PM on June 8, 2010
$650, in all honest, is the average cost for that kind of repair. Typically, only dealerships stock parts that specific. Some valves and solenoids are available through the aftermarket, but canisters generally are a dealer only item. That one is on the lower end of the price range. Some set ups can run over $1000 in parts alone.
posted by Jon-o at 1:20 PM on June 8, 2010
posted by Jon-o at 1:20 PM on June 8, 2010
You might try writing to Toyota of America. Detail what happened, and why you think you shouldn't have to pay for it. I needed a $2000 repair on my Honda CRV which was 4-year-old and had 40,000 miles. I wrote to Honda of America telling them several truths: I was a long-time Honda owner and I'd always considered Hondas to be ultra-reliable; I felt a repair of this size at this age and mileage was outrageous; I always went to my dealer for service; and that I'd like them to pay for it. They did. (However, I did write to them before getting the repair done.)
posted by BlahLaLa at 2:03 PM on June 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by BlahLaLa at 2:03 PM on June 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
Toyota at least used to give dealer-installed replacement exhaust systems a lifetime warranty. Check on whether they still do this.
posted by KRS at 4:34 PM on June 8, 2010
posted by KRS at 4:34 PM on June 8, 2010
Thank you for posting about this. I have the same year xA and I was able to check with the dealership about this possibly happening to my car. Luckily I was a few VIN later than yours and they said it shouldn't be a problem.
posted by msbutah at 10:15 AM on June 10, 2010
posted by msbutah at 10:15 AM on June 10, 2010
Response by poster: An update for those who are still reading:
I contacted the dealership and they said that there was nothing they could do, but they said that customers have had success in contacting Scion in the past. The number they gave me to call was 866-707-2466.
posted by emilyd22222 at 2:02 PM on June 14, 2010
I contacted the dealership and they said that there was nothing they could do, but they said that customers have had success in contacting Scion in the past. The number they gave me to call was 866-707-2466.
posted by emilyd22222 at 2:02 PM on June 14, 2010
Response by poster: Another update:
I called Scion and they offered to reimburse me for the entire cost. Metafilter just saved me $700!
posted by emilyd22222 at 4:19 PM on December 10, 2010
I called Scion and they offered to reimburse me for the entire cost. Metafilter just saved me $700!
posted by emilyd22222 at 4:19 PM on December 10, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
But assuming you didn't get robbed by the mechanic, and assuming you weren't customizing or doing anything otherwise wacky with the car, this sounds like it was a faulty part more than anything else.
Keep your receipts; I'm wondering of the emissions replacement really solved the problem, or just fixed the parts that were broken by a fault somewhere else within the system.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:14 PM on June 8, 2010