Market-timing leading to marital problems
April 13, 2010 7:31 AM Subscribe
How to convince husband to stop market-timing investing? (Or what compromise to seek?)
This is so embarrassing to even be asking, but -- we finally are in a position where we have some money to invest. I tend to buy index funds and just sit on them. My husband, on the other hand, is convinced that doing market analysis and then "timing" to buy low and sell high is the only way to yield reasonable investment returns. We have invested, this year, about $16,000. Our initial agreement was to divide the investing half and half. My $8000 is now about $8500. His $8000 is just over $2000. (Worse, he wants to "borrow" from my $8500, since "it's just sitting there.")
When I try to talk about this with him, he gets extremely upset, usually yells and/or swears, and insists, "I made $1000 this week, that's more than you've made all year!" and I say, "Yes, but you've lost $6,000 and that counts into the same calculus" and he says, "Stop telling me how much I've lost!"
I'm at the end of my rope and I don't even know how to deal with this. Financial planner? Marriage counselor? I'm starting to be afraid for my future and our child's future (definitely exacerbated by him wanting to "borrow" my $8500). He spends all this time and energy researching penny stocks, investing, and then swearing at the computer when they fall. He's reluctant to listen to anyone he doesn't consider an expert (so expert articles on why this is a bad way to invest might help). To me, he is clearly gambling -- chasing good money after bad, investing tons of time into this instead of focusing on his job -- but he insists it's a measured, researched approach.
This is also the way his parents invested when he was growing up. The fact that his father is still working well past retirement age and his mother has NO retirement savings at all (they're now divorced) doesn't seem to have registered. (My conservatively-investing parents are well-off and retiring more or less on schedule.)
I don't know if I can live with this any more -- it stresses me out so much that I end up throwing up -- but I don't know how to even begin to address it. A marriage counselor can't help us with the financial aspect, just this disagreement aspect, but probably one doesn't go to a financial counselor to sit and sob in their office while having a tense marital disagreement.
Please, any ideas, I'm so upset I can hardly even think straight about this.
This is so embarrassing to even be asking, but -- we finally are in a position where we have some money to invest. I tend to buy index funds and just sit on them. My husband, on the other hand, is convinced that doing market analysis and then "timing" to buy low and sell high is the only way to yield reasonable investment returns. We have invested, this year, about $16,000. Our initial agreement was to divide the investing half and half. My $8000 is now about $8500. His $8000 is just over $2000. (Worse, he wants to "borrow" from my $8500, since "it's just sitting there.")
When I try to talk about this with him, he gets extremely upset, usually yells and/or swears, and insists, "I made $1000 this week, that's more than you've made all year!" and I say, "Yes, but you've lost $6,000 and that counts into the same calculus" and he says, "Stop telling me how much I've lost!"
I'm at the end of my rope and I don't even know how to deal with this. Financial planner? Marriage counselor? I'm starting to be afraid for my future and our child's future (definitely exacerbated by him wanting to "borrow" my $8500). He spends all this time and energy researching penny stocks, investing, and then swearing at the computer when they fall. He's reluctant to listen to anyone he doesn't consider an expert (so expert articles on why this is a bad way to invest might help). To me, he is clearly gambling -- chasing good money after bad, investing tons of time into this instead of focusing on his job -- but he insists it's a measured, researched approach.
This is also the way his parents invested when he was growing up. The fact that his father is still working well past retirement age and his mother has NO retirement savings at all (they're now divorced) doesn't seem to have registered. (My conservatively-investing parents are well-off and retiring more or less on schedule.)
I don't know if I can live with this any more -- it stresses me out so much that I end up throwing up -- but I don't know how to even begin to address it. A marriage counselor can't help us with the financial aspect, just this disagreement aspect, but probably one doesn't go to a financial counselor to sit and sob in their office while having a tense marital disagreement.
Please, any ideas, I'm so upset I can hardly even think straight about this.
When I try to talk about this with him, he gets extremely upset, usually yells and/or swears, and insists, "I made $1000 this week, that's more than you've made all year!" and I say, "Yes, but you've lost $6,000 and that counts into the same calculus" and he says, "Stop telling me how much I've lost!"
There, right there, should be the end of the argument between the two of you and the beginning of a conversation with a marriage counselor. When the talk goes from rational to extremely upset over obvious truths you need a mediator.
posted by Hiker at 7:34 AM on April 13, 2010 [15 favorites]
There, right there, should be the end of the argument between the two of you and the beginning of a conversation with a marriage counselor. When the talk goes from rational to extremely upset over obvious truths you need a mediator.
posted by Hiker at 7:34 AM on April 13, 2010 [15 favorites]
mkb has it. Start with a marriage counselor or mediator to try to defuse the conflict and then move from there.
posted by Silvertree at 7:48 AM on April 13, 2010
posted by Silvertree at 7:48 AM on April 13, 2010
Marriage counselor, so he can hear it from a 3rd party. If he agrees to go, let him choose the counselor. Any one of them worth their pay will see during the first session that he's gambling away your joint future.
Speaking of which, it sounds like you both need a wake up call. Him to hear that he's got a compulsion that isn't under control. And you to hear that you might have a very painful choice to make--and very soon.
I'm sorry you're going through this. Your instinct is right on: You must protect yourself, your child, your money, and your property. Do you know for certain he's not borrowing against the mortgage or any other assets right now? Know for certain all that's going on, draw your boundaries, and enforce them. Good luck.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 7:49 AM on April 13, 2010
Speaking of which, it sounds like you both need a wake up call. Him to hear that he's got a compulsion that isn't under control. And you to hear that you might have a very painful choice to make--and very soon.
I'm sorry you're going through this. Your instinct is right on: You must protect yourself, your child, your money, and your property. Do you know for certain he's not borrowing against the mortgage or any other assets right now? Know for certain all that's going on, draw your boundaries, and enforce them. Good luck.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 7:49 AM on April 13, 2010
Tell him he's starting to sound abusive.
posted by anniecat at 7:52 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by anniecat at 7:52 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think you need to treat this like he was addicted to gambling, because that's basically what he's doing.
This is exactly the problem. He uses the umbrella of 'investing' to hide from the fact that he has a gambling addiction. It doesn't matter that it isn't horses or football teams; he's betting money and losing badly.
The first step might be to get him, somehow, to acknowledge that he is not acting responsibly. Maybe he needs to hear it from someone whose financial advice he can respect. Talking your financial situation over with an adviser, if you can set it up, might at least get him to agree that his approach is not financially responsible. Once you have that financial advice, you have a neutral third opinion. It's probably though that the advice will be ignored, and he'll want to continue his risky investments. At that point you definitely need to follow it up with marriage counselling and an ultimatum about him getting help for his addictive behaviour.
Don't let him have the money though.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 7:55 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is exactly the problem. He uses the umbrella of 'investing' to hide from the fact that he has a gambling addiction. It doesn't matter that it isn't horses or football teams; he's betting money and losing badly.
The first step might be to get him, somehow, to acknowledge that he is not acting responsibly. Maybe he needs to hear it from someone whose financial advice he can respect. Talking your financial situation over with an adviser, if you can set it up, might at least get him to agree that his approach is not financially responsible. Once you have that financial advice, you have a neutral third opinion. It's probably though that the advice will be ignored, and he'll want to continue his risky investments. At that point you definitely need to follow it up with marriage counselling and an ultimatum about him getting help for his addictive behaviour.
Don't let him have the money though.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 7:55 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Tell him to read this and calm down. I have always followed the rule that no more than 10% of my investments should be in individuals stocks / adr's / etf's / etc. The rest should be in index funds.
It is completely unreasonable for him to try about poach the other half of your portfolio. Make sure he doesn't start trading on margin.
posted by jasondigitized at 8:00 AM on April 13, 2010 [5 favorites]
It is completely unreasonable for him to try about poach the other half of your portfolio. Make sure he doesn't start trading on margin.
posted by jasondigitized at 8:00 AM on April 13, 2010 [5 favorites]
First, agreed that he's gambling. You need to treat it just like he had a habit of going down and betting on the ponies. Getting him to realize this may not be easy, though. Definitely marriage counseling as a first step, but ultimately he needs to get into individual counseling or treatment — in addition to the problems that you have together in your relationship, he has a significant issue that needs to be worked out. I don't think marriage/relationship counseling alone are going to cut it, any more than they'd work if he was an alcoholic.
Second, what he's doing isn't even investing. Even if he was making money, it wouldn't be investing: it's speculating. There are literally millions of articles that I could point you to which explain the difference between the two (this one has direct quotes from everyone from Graham and Dodd's to John Maynard Keynes), but I doubt any of them will convince him. That's because I don't think his behavior is truly rational, and thus it's not really possible to make a rational argument against it.
You can't do ten minutes of research on the Internet without running across dozens of people advising against exactly the sort of behavior your husband is engaged in, so he's clearly already decided to ignore reason. (The "don't talk to me about my losses" stuff just makes my case that much stronger; no trader worth anything ignores losses. You accept them, learn from them, but never forget them or fail to add them in along with your gains. That he clearly doesn't even want to talk about them is the candles on the icing on the cake.)
He may be a very nice guy in all other respects, but understand that you are living with an addict. Even as you work to correct the problem, make sure your finances, and the rest of your family's finances, are protected from his gambling habit.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:12 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Second, what he's doing isn't even investing. Even if he was making money, it wouldn't be investing: it's speculating. There are literally millions of articles that I could point you to which explain the difference between the two (this one has direct quotes from everyone from Graham and Dodd's to John Maynard Keynes), but I doubt any of them will convince him. That's because I don't think his behavior is truly rational, and thus it's not really possible to make a rational argument against it.
You can't do ten minutes of research on the Internet without running across dozens of people advising against exactly the sort of behavior your husband is engaged in, so he's clearly already decided to ignore reason. (The "don't talk to me about my losses" stuff just makes my case that much stronger; no trader worth anything ignores losses. You accept them, learn from them, but never forget them or fail to add them in along with your gains. That he clearly doesn't even want to talk about them is the candles on the icing on the cake.)
He may be a very nice guy in all other respects, but understand that you are living with an addict. Even as you work to correct the problem, make sure your finances, and the rest of your family's finances, are protected from his gambling habit.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:12 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think it's great that you recognize that how he handles money is directly related to how he was raised to handle money. You might try getting a few books from the library about couples and money to help you get a handle on what the issues are here. This one from Amazon looks promising.
I think you should try to tackle this at a calm moment. You may need to make a date to discuss this. Don't do it in the heat of the moment. Don't bring up his wins or losses and don't let him get you in a discussion of that. It's unimportant -- what's done is done. What you guys need to get on the same page about is your financial goals. What are your goals? List them. What's your plan to achieve them? Come up with that together.
Look for classes on investing. It may be that your method could use a little more risk-taking (diversity is good) and his a little less. (Okay, a lot less, in my opinion.) But if you educate yourselves together you two can get on the same page with your goals and work together.
Lastly, you need to set up some ground rules for money discussions. I should probably write a book about how far my husband and I have come in our ability to calmly discuss money issues. You need to practice having calm and respectful discussions about money. It's a real hot-button issue that taps into all kinds of weird emotions. Until you guys can get this under control you need to tread gently and respectfully and just keep practicing.
Anyway, you guys can get past this but it will take work on both your parts. Start with the fact that you two have to be able to have a discussion about money and investment strategy without flying off the handle. And then go from there, if you can. If you can't then marriage counseling is probably in order. He may have a gambling problem or he may have an esteem problem or he may not know how to discuss this. Talking more about how each of your families handle money and taught you will give you a great starting spot. Good luck!
posted by amanda at 8:14 AM on April 13, 2010
I think you should try to tackle this at a calm moment. You may need to make a date to discuss this. Don't do it in the heat of the moment. Don't bring up his wins or losses and don't let him get you in a discussion of that. It's unimportant -- what's done is done. What you guys need to get on the same page about is your financial goals. What are your goals? List them. What's your plan to achieve them? Come up with that together.
Look for classes on investing. It may be that your method could use a little more risk-taking (diversity is good) and his a little less. (Okay, a lot less, in my opinion.) But if you educate yourselves together you two can get on the same page with your goals and work together.
Lastly, you need to set up some ground rules for money discussions. I should probably write a book about how far my husband and I have come in our ability to calmly discuss money issues. You need to practice having calm and respectful discussions about money. It's a real hot-button issue that taps into all kinds of weird emotions. Until you guys can get this under control you need to tread gently and respectfully and just keep practicing.
Anyway, you guys can get past this but it will take work on both your parts. Start with the fact that you two have to be able to have a discussion about money and investment strategy without flying off the handle. And then go from there, if you can. If you can't then marriage counseling is probably in order. He may have a gambling problem or he may have an esteem problem or he may not know how to discuss this. Talking more about how each of your families handle money and taught you will give you a great starting spot. Good luck!
posted by amanda at 8:14 AM on April 13, 2010
Maybe he could practice in a virtual stock exchange. If he can prove that he's capable of getting consistent returns then he can start trading real money. He'll need to be careful though, trading with virtual money or other people's money is not quite the same as trading with your own. The psychology that comes into play is different. We tend to get emotionally caught up in our stock picks and will often hang on to losers when they should have been sold.
If he is determined to continue trading, he may want to read this book. At the very worst, it'll teach him how to avoid risking and losing all his capital so quickly.
Lastly, I found this brief introduction to dividend investing you may want to have a look at. DRIPs have been around for awhile now and are a good way to reinvest your money over a longer period to take advantage of compounding returns.
posted by jmmpangaea at 8:17 AM on April 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
If he is determined to continue trading, he may want to read this book. At the very worst, it'll teach him how to avoid risking and losing all his capital so quickly.
Lastly, I found this brief introduction to dividend investing you may want to have a look at. DRIPs have been around for awhile now and are a good way to reinvest your money over a longer period to take advantage of compounding returns.
posted by jmmpangaea at 8:17 AM on April 13, 2010 [3 favorites]
We have invested, this year, about $16,000. Our initial agreement was to divide the investing half and half. My $8000 is now about $8500. His $8000 is just over $2000. (Worse, he wants to "borrow" from my $8500, since "it's just sitting there.")
Not surprisingly, your investment pretty much matches the performance of the S&P 500 so far this year (a gain of around 6%). His performance, on the other hand, is a 75% loss, which is so far off from normal results that I'm guessing his trading strategy doesn't resemble "investing" at all.
He spends all this time and energy researching penny stocks, investing, and then swearing at the computer when they fall.
...
To me, he is clearly gambling -- chasing good money after bad, investing tons of time into this instead of focusing on his job -- but he insists it's a measured, researched approach.
You are absolutely correct. Nobody but shady pump and dump scammers would ever recommend trading penny stocks. It sounds like he doesn't want to listen to reason about this, but aside from his huge losses this is an objectively bad way to invest money for your future.
I don't know if I can live with this any more -- it stresses me out so much that I end up throwing up -- but I don't know how to even begin to address it.
On the bright side, things could be a lot worse. You have $16,000 above and beyond your expenses to invest this year, and the average person has a hard time keeping their head above water in this economy. Obviously you should do everything you can to limit the amount of money that your husband flushes down the toilet with these half-baked trading schemes (including not letting him touch your half that is properly invested, that would be madness) and you have every right to put as much pressure as you can on him to get him to stop, but it sounds like you're financially smart enough that you'll be able to provide for your own future (and possibly his) despite his best efforts to squander your savings.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:28 AM on April 13, 2010
Not surprisingly, your investment pretty much matches the performance of the S&P 500 so far this year (a gain of around 6%). His performance, on the other hand, is a 75% loss, which is so far off from normal results that I'm guessing his trading strategy doesn't resemble "investing" at all.
He spends all this time and energy researching penny stocks, investing, and then swearing at the computer when they fall.
...
To me, he is clearly gambling -- chasing good money after bad, investing tons of time into this instead of focusing on his job -- but he insists it's a measured, researched approach.
You are absolutely correct. Nobody but shady pump and dump scammers would ever recommend trading penny stocks. It sounds like he doesn't want to listen to reason about this, but aside from his huge losses this is an objectively bad way to invest money for your future.
I don't know if I can live with this any more -- it stresses me out so much that I end up throwing up -- but I don't know how to even begin to address it.
On the bright side, things could be a lot worse. You have $16,000 above and beyond your expenses to invest this year, and the average person has a hard time keeping their head above water in this economy. Obviously you should do everything you can to limit the amount of money that your husband flushes down the toilet with these half-baked trading schemes (including not letting him touch your half that is properly invested, that would be madness) and you have every right to put as much pressure as you can on him to get him to stop, but it sounds like you're financially smart enough that you'll be able to provide for your own future (and possibly his) despite his best efforts to squander your savings.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:28 AM on April 13, 2010
I agree that this certainly sounds like a gambling addiction that is being hidden under the term of "investing," particularly given that he's now trying to access your half of the money since he's lost so much of his own. I'm not an expert in the best way to address gambling addiction, but luckily there are hotlines and organizations out there that exist solely to help with the issue. I would think that calling up one of them would be a good first step for you to (1) figure out whether this is indeed a gambling addiction and (2) if it is, what steps you can take to help your husband realize the problem and address it. (I'm guessing that if this is a gambling addiction, all the helpful articles and books on responsible investing won't help.)
A bit of googling turns up The National Council on Problem Gambling, which operates a toll-free confidential hotline at 800-522-4700. It looks like they can give you information and referrals to local resources, including to counselors that are trained to deal with this specific issue. I can't vouch for them myself but they appear to be a legitimate, non-industry-funded organization. I can't imagine it would hurt to call them and get their informed take on it.
posted by iminurmefi at 8:29 AM on April 13, 2010
A bit of googling turns up The National Council on Problem Gambling, which operates a toll-free confidential hotline at 800-522-4700. It looks like they can give you information and referrals to local resources, including to counselors that are trained to deal with this specific issue. I can't vouch for them myself but they appear to be a legitimate, non-industry-funded organization. I can't imagine it would hurt to call them and get their informed take on it.
posted by iminurmefi at 8:29 AM on April 13, 2010
Nthing that what he is doing now is just gambling.
If you think there's any hope of appealing to his rational side, you might encourage him to read A Random Walk Down Wall Street and Fooled by Randomness.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:50 AM on April 13, 2010
If you think there's any hope of appealing to his rational side, you might encourage him to read A Random Walk Down Wall Street and Fooled by Randomness.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:50 AM on April 13, 2010
I agree with the comments about seeing a marriage counsellor and that this is gambling under the guise of investing. Since he sees it as investing though, perhaps he would be open to the two of you looking at it from the perspective of starting from what your investment goals are, how much you need to invest, what levels of growth you think are achievable, and what levels of risk are acceptable. If he sees his behaviour in the context of a strategy that leads to a definite goal he may realise for himself that his methods are not getting you towards the goal.
That will at least give you an idea how much this is a failure to understand what investing means, and how much it's a gambling type problem.
posted by crocomancer at 8:53 AM on April 13, 2010
That will at least give you an idea how much this is a failure to understand what investing means, and how much it's a gambling type problem.
posted by crocomancer at 8:53 AM on April 13, 2010
Whatever you do, don't let him start trading futures, options, and especially currencies. While it's true that he's flushing money down the toilet right now, at least it's money that you have. If he gets into, say forex and leverages up 300:1, he'll start trading money you don't have - and in literally a few seconds you could end up with a $20,000 loss. You'll have to put your foot down, because if he's in penny stocks right now, he'll probably want to move into the more "dangerous" stuff. This is actually more common than you would expect, and you see situations where college kids and housewives who trade currencies end up bankrupting themselves or their families.
I'm not sure if you need marriage counseling - that's something that you are better at evaulating than I am, because only you know your situation. I think it's possible that you could use it as a last resort. But your husband must acknowledge that he is speculating, not investing. Almost everyone who speculates loses money - and he is no exception. The only people who make money in penny stocks are the scammers who pump them and the advertisers who sell bogus "strategies."
With all of those trades, your tax returns are going to be a nightmare. At least you can carry some of the loss over - unless you are accountants or experienced in doing your own taxes, I'd enlist a good CPA this year.
Finally, if you think you can ask him this question, try it: "There are thousands of graduates from Ivy League schools and brilliant math/physics PhDs who trade as a full time job. When they get home at night, they spend hours researching. They work for the biggest banks in the world, who pay them generously to find opportunities. They live and breathe this stuff. What makes you think that you have an advantage over them? It's an honest question - what does your husband do that all of these highly motivated people who trade for a living don't? You'll learn a lot from the way he answers.
Good luck - and remember - absolutely put your foot down if he starts taking on leverage. Don't let it get to that point.
posted by Despondent_Monkey at 9:23 AM on April 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure if you need marriage counseling - that's something that you are better at evaulating than I am, because only you know your situation. I think it's possible that you could use it as a last resort. But your husband must acknowledge that he is speculating, not investing. Almost everyone who speculates loses money - and he is no exception. The only people who make money in penny stocks are the scammers who pump them and the advertisers who sell bogus "strategies."
With all of those trades, your tax returns are going to be a nightmare. At least you can carry some of the loss over - unless you are accountants or experienced in doing your own taxes, I'd enlist a good CPA this year.
Finally, if you think you can ask him this question, try it: "There are thousands of graduates from Ivy League schools and brilliant math/physics PhDs who trade as a full time job. When they get home at night, they spend hours researching. They work for the biggest banks in the world, who pay them generously to find opportunities. They live and breathe this stuff. What makes you think that you have an advantage over them? It's an honest question - what does your husband do that all of these highly motivated people who trade for a living don't? You'll learn a lot from the way he answers.
Good luck - and remember - absolutely put your foot down if he starts taking on leverage. Don't let it get to that point.
posted by Despondent_Monkey at 9:23 AM on April 13, 2010 [6 favorites]
i agree this is a marriage counselor problem. Because the trouble isn't even so much his investing beliefs, right? Because:
1) Rational people can change their beliefs in the face of evidence that the beliefs are wrong; and perhaps more importantly
2) Even if he never changed his beliefs, it could be possible to come to a acceptable compromise, which it sounds like you did when you each invested your $8000.
The problem is that he's not being rational. And that he's making irrational decisions that impact the future of your family.
And that you guys came to an acceptable compromise, and now he unilaterally wants to change it just because he didn't like the results of his own bad decisions.
And -- this is the one I think is the most troubling and disturbing- you are not allowed to state any fact, no matter how important it is, if he doesn't like how the fact makes him feel. You are to ignore reality and pretend it doesn't exist if the reality doesn't mesh with how he wants to feel, how he wants to see things, and what he wants.
That's absolutely nuts! All of those things would be nuts in ANY context, whether it was about something financial or about something completely different.
But it's the last one that truly disturbs me.
-He's controlling what you're allowed to say/not to say.
-He's controlling which version of reality you operate by which may or may not have anything to do with actual reality.
That's straight out of the abuser playbook.
Again ... I think you should go to marriage counseling because I doubt he only displays these behaviors when it comes to this, and because I think financial counseling will be worthless until he checks himself.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:47 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
1) Rational people can change their beliefs in the face of evidence that the beliefs are wrong; and perhaps more importantly
2) Even if he never changed his beliefs, it could be possible to come to a acceptable compromise, which it sounds like you did when you each invested your $8000.
The problem is that he's not being rational. And that he's making irrational decisions that impact the future of your family.
And that you guys came to an acceptable compromise, and now he unilaterally wants to change it just because he didn't like the results of his own bad decisions.
And -- this is the one I think is the most troubling and disturbing- you are not allowed to state any fact, no matter how important it is, if he doesn't like how the fact makes him feel. You are to ignore reality and pretend it doesn't exist if the reality doesn't mesh with how he wants to feel, how he wants to see things, and what he wants.
That's absolutely nuts! All of those things would be nuts in ANY context, whether it was about something financial or about something completely different.
But it's the last one that truly disturbs me.
-He's controlling what you're allowed to say/not to say.
-He's controlling which version of reality you operate by which may or may not have anything to do with actual reality.
That's straight out of the abuser playbook.
Again ... I think you should go to marriage counseling because I doubt he only displays these behaviors when it comes to this, and because I think financial counseling will be worthless until he checks himself.
posted by Ashley801 at 9:47 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
When I try to talk about this with him, he gets extremely upset, usually yells and/or swears, and insists, "I made $1000 this week, that's more than you've made all year!" and I say, "Yes, but you've lost $6,000 and that counts into the same calculus" and he says, "Stop telling me how much I've lost!"
He's become addicted. You both started on the right foot, splitting the money and using your own strategies, but a reasonable person in his position would say "well, I guess my method of investing is not as profitable as I thought, so I'm going to try something else -- something safer -- to start building that $2000 back up."
Don't let him touch the $8500. Point out that his behavior is becoming abusive, and resembles the behavior of a gambling addict. Tell him it's time to stop talking about the money, and that if he wants to keep playing with the $2000 he can, but you and he either needs to knock off this behavior now or you and he need to go into couples counseling now.
posted by davejay at 10:01 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
He's become addicted. You both started on the right foot, splitting the money and using your own strategies, but a reasonable person in his position would say "well, I guess my method of investing is not as profitable as I thought, so I'm going to try something else -- something safer -- to start building that $2000 back up."
Don't let him touch the $8500. Point out that his behavior is becoming abusive, and resembles the behavior of a gambling addict. Tell him it's time to stop talking about the money, and that if he wants to keep playing with the $2000 he can, but you and he either needs to knock off this behavior now or you and he need to go into couples counseling now.
posted by davejay at 10:01 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh, and YOU should seek a financial planner -- to find out what kind of options you have for protecting the rest of your financials, as he might elect to proceed with this irrationality and start pulling money out of savings or whatnot. Do this right away, and don't ask for his permission first.
Incidentally: you are allowed to put your foot down, once you've gotten through the immediate problem, to say "if you want to be married to me, you can't invest any more." My mother did that to my father over board games (of all things) because he and his extended family would get abusive and violent over them, so we never played them in my house growing up (non-competitive games only.) Any activity that leads to that sort of behavior can and should be verboten.
posted by davejay at 10:05 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Incidentally: you are allowed to put your foot down, once you've gotten through the immediate problem, to say "if you want to be married to me, you can't invest any more." My mother did that to my father over board games (of all things) because he and his extended family would get abusive and violent over them, so we never played them in my house growing up (non-competitive games only.) Any activity that leads to that sort of behavior can and should be verboten.
posted by davejay at 10:05 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
I actually think a financial counselor would be a great idea, as they would also point out that your system is better, possibly reframe your husbands choices as emotionally based, and be a respected source to hear all this from.
posted by Vaike at 10:07 AM on April 13, 2010
posted by Vaike at 10:07 AM on April 13, 2010
probably one doesn't go to a financial counselor to sit and sob in their office while having a tense marital disagreement.
My mom is a financial planner, and I think she'd beg to differ. Money is a great source of stress in many relationships. Good financial planners know that. I'd recommend that you ask around to try to find a financial planner who is very people-focused, not someone who has a plan in mind and tries to fit every client into that preexisting plan. You'll want to work with someone who really spends time trying to understand your family's background and financial goals, and who can appreciate the emotional/relationship factors that go into this.
I understand why some people are pointing to very serious issues here. This could be a gambling addiction, and it may be abusive or otherwise unhealthy, and I agree that marriage counseling could be immensely useful for you. However, it sounds like it's possible your husband simply doesn't understand what investing is. There may also be some ego involved--it takes humility to recognize that, while one may be able to make money and be successful professionally, one may not have the necessary expertise to invest or otherwise manage those earnings. You might consider sitting down with a financial planner on your own before you meet with one together with your husband. No doubt, most financial planners have interacted with people who came in with misguided, dysfunctional, and outright wrong ideas about investing. If you meet with a planner one on one--even just to discuss your personal plans and goals--you may be able to work out a strategy for addressing this issue with your husband.
Again, I'm not saying it can't be something more serious, this was just a reaction I had.
posted by Meg_Murry at 10:11 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
My mom is a financial planner, and I think she'd beg to differ. Money is a great source of stress in many relationships. Good financial planners know that. I'd recommend that you ask around to try to find a financial planner who is very people-focused, not someone who has a plan in mind and tries to fit every client into that preexisting plan. You'll want to work with someone who really spends time trying to understand your family's background and financial goals, and who can appreciate the emotional/relationship factors that go into this.
I understand why some people are pointing to very serious issues here. This could be a gambling addiction, and it may be abusive or otherwise unhealthy, and I agree that marriage counseling could be immensely useful for you. However, it sounds like it's possible your husband simply doesn't understand what investing is. There may also be some ego involved--it takes humility to recognize that, while one may be able to make money and be successful professionally, one may not have the necessary expertise to invest or otherwise manage those earnings. You might consider sitting down with a financial planner on your own before you meet with one together with your husband. No doubt, most financial planners have interacted with people who came in with misguided, dysfunctional, and outright wrong ideas about investing. If you meet with a planner one on one--even just to discuss your personal plans and goals--you may be able to work out a strategy for addressing this issue with your husband.
Again, I'm not saying it can't be something more serious, this was just a reaction I had.
posted by Meg_Murry at 10:11 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Hold your ground and your boundaries. You two agreed to split the $16K and do whatever you wanted with your halves. He's decided he wants to have fun throwing his away. Hold him to the agreement.
posted by rhizome at 11:50 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 11:50 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
Mod note: From the OP:
Thank you so much, I already feel calmer, and I'm looking at the links you guys suggested and seriously mulling over what you've posted here. I think I need to think for a while about how to approach the issue with him. In response to a few specific comments/concerns:posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:41 PM on April 13, 2010
*Generally, I control the money; he wouldn't be able to drain accounts without me finding out, but thank you, truly, for worrying about my financial security that way. (I also control the college fund, and that's in my name only. This was just a convenience issue, but you can be sure I'm keeping it that way for now.)
*He is not abusive; the yelling I'm pretty sure was because he was angry at himself about the losses and lashing out because I hit a raw spot. We're not great at arguing but we have been to counseling over that and we're generally mindful. He also called (from work) once he calmed down and apologized for getting upset and handling the conversation badly. (With no blaming or "if you hadn't done X ..." ... just an "I shouldn't have done that, I handled it badly, and I'm sorry.") In other areas of our life he is responsible and he is loving and not controlling; part of the reason I'm so freaked out is that while we have normal bickering over the dishes, we don't have big areas of disagreement -- except this.
*In responses to Despondent_Monkey: "What makes you think that you have an advantage over them?" He IS an Ivy League grad who works in a finance-related field ... that's part of the problem, the thought that he knows better.
*As to the risk issue, the reason we agreed to the initial split is that he feels my investing is unacceptably conservative, and I feel his is unacceptably risky. We're at an impasse on the risk issue, and I really do think a lot of it is how we were raised. I AM on the conservative end of investing, but I think his method is far beyond the acceptable risk realm and his expectations for returns are crazy unrealistic -- but that's how his father invested. (And sometimes his dad DID hit it big ... but overall, he's 75 and still working because he can't afford to retire.)
Again, thank you SO much for your excellent counsel so far, and I feel SO much better just knowing I have options and being able to get some rationality from the hive mind when I am too upset to be rational myself. And I really appreciate MeFi giving me the opportunity to ask a question like this anonymously, since I'd be so embarrassed to bring this up publicly. It's a mitzvah, it really is.
*As to the risk issue, the reason we agreed to the initial split is that he feels my investing is unacceptably conservative, and I feel his is unacceptably risky. We're at an impasse on the risk issue, and I really do think a lot of it is how we were raised. I AM on the conservative end of investing, but I think his method is far beyond the acceptable risk realm and his expectations for returns are crazy unrealistic -- but that's how his father invested.
That's great to know. Now that you two know this you need to come up with a constructive way to deal with it. It's great to hear that he apologized for blowing up and that you don't normally fight. I think you just need to sit down and talk through this issue and come to an agreement. I think you guys can do this. I think you should also discuss how important the thrill of the hunt is for him. He needs to face that. If there was no thrill, he wouldn't devote so much time to it. He needs to find another (cheap or free) thrill. If you two can agree on some financial goals -- find a book to guide you in this and/or a financial planner -- then maybe you can also come up with a plan to achieve them. Highly doubtful that the line-item "Win the Lottery" is going to make much sense when you list it out.
It's funny, my husband and I had a very loud, impassioned debate on the subject of index funds. He has a lot more financial knowledge than I as he was in a financial profession for awhile; I am self-taught. And, of course, I do the household books and make sure that we have extra money to invest at the end of the month. It's like macro issues are his thing and micro issues are my thing. (So typical, right?) Anyway, we decided that I would roll a 401(k) that I had into an indexed fund and, I must say, it's done quite well in comparison to some other investments we have.
At the end of the day, it's not rocket science, you know? And there are a number of ways you can achieve your goals. However, if one of your shared financial goals does not include an annual $8000 to spend at the slots in Vegas, then it doesn't! Or, perhaps you can raise that as an option. You guys can save up another 16k and he can do penny investments and you'll take your share to Vegas to do whatever with. (Make sure you eat at Nobu and get a couple days in the spa!) Anyway, you get what I'm getting at.
posted by amanda at 2:36 PM on April 13, 2010
That's great to know. Now that you two know this you need to come up with a constructive way to deal with it. It's great to hear that he apologized for blowing up and that you don't normally fight. I think you just need to sit down and talk through this issue and come to an agreement. I think you guys can do this. I think you should also discuss how important the thrill of the hunt is for him. He needs to face that. If there was no thrill, he wouldn't devote so much time to it. He needs to find another (cheap or free) thrill. If you two can agree on some financial goals -- find a book to guide you in this and/or a financial planner -- then maybe you can also come up with a plan to achieve them. Highly doubtful that the line-item "Win the Lottery" is going to make much sense when you list it out.
It's funny, my husband and I had a very loud, impassioned debate on the subject of index funds. He has a lot more financial knowledge than I as he was in a financial profession for awhile; I am self-taught. And, of course, I do the household books and make sure that we have extra money to invest at the end of the month. It's like macro issues are his thing and micro issues are my thing. (So typical, right?) Anyway, we decided that I would roll a 401(k) that I had into an indexed fund and, I must say, it's done quite well in comparison to some other investments we have.
At the end of the day, it's not rocket science, you know? And there are a number of ways you can achieve your goals. However, if one of your shared financial goals does not include an annual $8000 to spend at the slots in Vegas, then it doesn't! Or, perhaps you can raise that as an option. You guys can save up another 16k and he can do penny investments and you'll take your share to Vegas to do whatever with. (Make sure you eat at Nobu and get a couple days in the spa!) Anyway, you get what I'm getting at.
posted by amanda at 2:36 PM on April 13, 2010
Maybe suggest an investing club operating under the NAIC--Better Investing banner? It's not as glamorous as day-trading but it is a lot more hands on than buying in to index funds. The basic premise is finding companies with an established growth record but that still have a high upside. The process is strongly focused on education and employs a fairly proven methodology. The goal is to average 15% annual growth over a small stable of growth-leading companies in financial sectors that are also in an expanding phase.
The end result of a NAIC research process provides a relatively easy digest of indicators as to the growth potential of a particular stock as well the risk presented. It's geeky enough to appeal to a 'systems' kind of person, intuitive enough that you don't need to be a genius to decipher, and can actually form a useful frame for discussing future investments you might choose to make together. Back when I was a member, NAIC was hot and heavy into developing tools to evaluate mutual funds as well. Having both of you working at the same system and coming up with numbers in a common environment will help you get comfortable with more risk *and* help your SO focus on making a sound business case instead of speculating on penny stocks.
Best of luck to you.
posted by Fezboy! at 4:45 PM on April 13, 2010
The end result of a NAIC research process provides a relatively easy digest of indicators as to the growth potential of a particular stock as well the risk presented. It's geeky enough to appeal to a 'systems' kind of person, intuitive enough that you don't need to be a genius to decipher, and can actually form a useful frame for discussing future investments you might choose to make together. Back when I was a member, NAIC was hot and heavy into developing tools to evaluate mutual funds as well. Having both of you working at the same system and coming up with numbers in a common environment will help you get comfortable with more risk *and* help your SO focus on making a sound business case instead of speculating on penny stocks.
Best of luck to you.
posted by Fezboy! at 4:45 PM on April 13, 2010
Hypothetical: assume you both started with $8000 and you both speculated. His doubled, and yours went to zero. Ask him what exactly he'd tell you if you asked for another $8000. As that thinkorswim guy says (about day trading): the only thing worse that being wrong is staying wrong.
posted by fatllama at 7:18 PM on April 13, 2010
posted by fatllama at 7:18 PM on April 13, 2010
It is pretty simple- his "system" has failed. Time to try another system.
posted by gjc at 7:49 PM on April 13, 2010
posted by gjc at 7:49 PM on April 13, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by mkb at 7:33 AM on April 13, 2010 [28 favorites]