Friend's cheating...what to do?
April 10, 2010 1:11 PM Subscribe
How can I support my friend when I (and she) know what she's doing is wrong?
One of my oldest and best friends from my hometown has been going out with her boyfriend for 8 years - since the end of high school. In that time, they've had their share of arguments and indiscretions (as in any relationship) but now they've moved into a condo together and things seem well. Except. That my friend has been cheating on her boyfriend for almost 2 years with a co-worker (who has, in that time, gotten married himself).
I don't get to see her very often but when I do, all we discuss is how she regrets getting "talked into" cheating with her co-worker. The thing is, she's otherwise very dedicated to her boyfriend (who does not seem to suspect a thing) and outwardly expresses a lot of sadness over what she's done. She talks about their future with a lot of hope and makes it sound like next time, she will ignore The Other Guy's advances. But then I go home again after a month or two and learn things are just the same!
How can I be a supportive friend? I don't think cheating on her boyfriend is good AT ALL, especially since they now share a home. I've made my opinion of this and The Other Guy pretty clear. But I feel like a broken record when I talk to her ("END IT with The Other Guy and/or end it with your boyfriend. And especially end it with The Other Guy because he's married!"). I don't know what to tell her anymore - I feel like all I'm doing now is scolding (and it's certainly not getting me or her anywhere) and I hate to keep doing that every time I see her. I don't want her to continue feeling this terrible but she seems unable or somehow unwilling to fix her situation.
What would you do?
One of my oldest and best friends from my hometown has been going out with her boyfriend for 8 years - since the end of high school. In that time, they've had their share of arguments and indiscretions (as in any relationship) but now they've moved into a condo together and things seem well. Except. That my friend has been cheating on her boyfriend for almost 2 years with a co-worker (who has, in that time, gotten married himself).
I don't get to see her very often but when I do, all we discuss is how she regrets getting "talked into" cheating with her co-worker. The thing is, she's otherwise very dedicated to her boyfriend (who does not seem to suspect a thing) and outwardly expresses a lot of sadness over what she's done. She talks about their future with a lot of hope and makes it sound like next time, she will ignore The Other Guy's advances. But then I go home again after a month or two and learn things are just the same!
How can I be a supportive friend? I don't think cheating on her boyfriend is good AT ALL, especially since they now share a home. I've made my opinion of this and The Other Guy pretty clear. But I feel like a broken record when I talk to her ("END IT with The Other Guy and/or end it with your boyfriend. And especially end it with The Other Guy because he's married!"). I don't know what to tell her anymore - I feel like all I'm doing now is scolding (and it's certainly not getting me or her anywhere) and I hate to keep doing that every time I see her. I don't want her to continue feeling this terrible but she seems unable or somehow unwilling to fix her situation.
What would you do?
I don't get to see her very often but when I do, all we discuss is how she regrets getting "talked into" cheating with her co-worker.
You should explicitly refuse to accept this characterization. She's choosing what to do.
Aside from that, I don't know what to tell you. You rarely interact with this person, and when you do interact with her you spend all your time together talking about this affair, which you (correctly) see as unmitigatedly repugnant and potentially destructive to multiple people's well-being? Um, maybe ... find some better friends?
posted by Jaltcoh at 1:29 PM on April 10, 2010
You should explicitly refuse to accept this characterization. She's choosing what to do.
Aside from that, I don't know what to tell you. You rarely interact with this person, and when you do interact with her you spend all your time together talking about this affair, which you (correctly) see as unmitigatedly repugnant and potentially destructive to multiple people's well-being? Um, maybe ... find some better friends?
posted by Jaltcoh at 1:29 PM on April 10, 2010
You call bullshit on the "talked into" or anything similar that excuses her responsibility. I have been known to call people liars to their face when they say things like this. Step 2: don't wrap yourself into her drama anymore.
posted by rhizome at 1:32 PM on April 10, 2010 [12 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 1:32 PM on April 10, 2010 [12 favorites]
I've made my opinion of this and The Other Guy pretty clear. But I feel like a broken record when I talk to her
You need to understand that she's enjoying her long-term affair with this person, and she's enjoying rehashing the drama with you, and she's enjoying making vaguely apologetic noises (saying she was "talked into" the affair, saying she's going to end it). It's fun for her. Being a supportive friend doesn't mean listening to the same thing over and over again. Assume your friend is going to keep having this affair. Part of her enjoyment of the affair is the drama--her life is interesting and romantic! she just can't resist this lover! she feels so conflicted!--and you're feeding that. Tell her you don't want to discuss it any further.
posted by Meg_Murry at 1:33 PM on April 10, 2010 [26 favorites]
You need to understand that she's enjoying her long-term affair with this person, and she's enjoying rehashing the drama with you, and she's enjoying making vaguely apologetic noises (saying she was "talked into" the affair, saying she's going to end it). It's fun for her. Being a supportive friend doesn't mean listening to the same thing over and over again. Assume your friend is going to keep having this affair. Part of her enjoyment of the affair is the drama--her life is interesting and romantic! she just can't resist this lover! she feels so conflicted!--and you're feeding that. Tell her you don't want to discuss it any further.
posted by Meg_Murry at 1:33 PM on April 10, 2010 [26 favorites]
How about refusing to be a listener when this topic comes up? If she needs a sympathetic ear, you could state your position more explicitly- "Friend, you know I love you very much. And, you also know that I think what you are doing is very, very wrong, because of a lot of reasons. I am not going to be a participant in any of this so unless you want to tell me that its over for good, I don't need to hear any of it."
(And you also don't need to hear the details/drama of how it ended and all. No talking, period.)
Your friend needs some tough love.
If I were in this situation, in addition to other reasons, I'd also refuse to talk about it if I were on good terms with her boyfriend because then you are being dishonest to the friend's boyfriend as well!
posted by xm at 1:33 PM on April 10, 2010
(And you also don't need to hear the details/drama of how it ended and all. No talking, period.)
Your friend needs some tough love.
If I were in this situation, in addition to other reasons, I'd also refuse to talk about it if I were on good terms with her boyfriend because then you are being dishonest to the friend's boyfriend as well!
posted by xm at 1:33 PM on April 10, 2010
If you really want to goose your friend to do what you both know she should do, give her an ultimatum: She ends it with the other guy and comes clean to her boyfriend, or you'll tell her boyfriend.
Of course, that's way, way overstepping the bounds of your friendship, and will almost certainly destroy the relationship without actually repairing anything between your friend and her partner.
What your friend's doing is treating you as her confessor. She's enabling herself by doing penance with you, absorbing your condemnation and mouthing the requisite "you're so right... it won't happen again" when she really has no intention of ending things. And so, by extension, you're enabling her. Stop it. Refuse to listen to the details any more, and act indifferent ("it's your life") if she insists on bringing it up.
I don't know what your relationship with the boyfriend is like, if you're friends or not, but be aware that you're a guilty party to him because you've known about it all along. It doesn't matter that you're telling her to end it--you're also keeping her secret, and by doing so, are complicit in the affair, which is another way of enabling your cheating friend.
posted by fatbird at 1:38 PM on April 10, 2010 [7 favorites]
Of course, that's way, way overstepping the bounds of your friendship, and will almost certainly destroy the relationship without actually repairing anything between your friend and her partner.
What your friend's doing is treating you as her confessor. She's enabling herself by doing penance with you, absorbing your condemnation and mouthing the requisite "you're so right... it won't happen again" when she really has no intention of ending things. And so, by extension, you're enabling her. Stop it. Refuse to listen to the details any more, and act indifferent ("it's your life") if she insists on bringing it up.
I don't know what your relationship with the boyfriend is like, if you're friends or not, but be aware that you're a guilty party to him because you've known about it all along. It doesn't matter that you're telling her to end it--you're also keeping her secret, and by doing so, are complicit in the affair, which is another way of enabling your cheating friend.
posted by fatbird at 1:38 PM on April 10, 2010 [7 favorites]
I don't want her to continue feeling this terrible but she seems unable or somehow unwilling to fix her situation.
The way she feels is not your responsibility! This is true no matter what the situation is, but in these particular circumstances, she's doing it to herself. Don't listen to that garbage about how she gets talked into cheating on her boyfriend of eight years. You know that's crap, right? These are the choices she is actively making. She's "unwilling to fix her situation" because, as someone else said, she enjoys it.
If it were me, I'd give one very serious tough-love talk, letting her know that I could not be friends with someone who did this to another person (because really, do you want to be friends with a woman who not only cheats but also refuses to take responsibility for her actions, and then uses all your time together to talk about her herself?). Then, when she did it again (because she will), I'd tell her why I was no longer going to hang out with her.
posted by runningwithscissors at 1:42 PM on April 10, 2010
The way she feels is not your responsibility! This is true no matter what the situation is, but in these particular circumstances, she's doing it to herself. Don't listen to that garbage about how she gets talked into cheating on her boyfriend of eight years. You know that's crap, right? These are the choices she is actively making. She's "unwilling to fix her situation" because, as someone else said, she enjoys it.
If it were me, I'd give one very serious tough-love talk, letting her know that I could not be friends with someone who did this to another person (because really, do you want to be friends with a woman who not only cheats but also refuses to take responsibility for her actions, and then uses all your time together to talk about her herself?). Then, when she did it again (because she will), I'd tell her why I was no longer going to hang out with her.
posted by runningwithscissors at 1:42 PM on April 10, 2010
The thing is, she's otherwise very dedicated to her boyfriend
er, that's a bit like "other than the nights I get drunk and punch my girlfriend, I would never hurt her".
Yeah, you need to refuse to discuss it with her...as in, "seriously, if we don't talk about something else, I'm hanging up/leaving". She won't believe you, so she'll probably make you actually follow through with your threat.
Which you should, because having the same unpleasant conversation over and over again is fucking miserable. I ended a friendship for the same thing and even though I felt bad about it, it was like a burden being lifted from my shoulders...no regrets.
posted by the bricabrac man at 1:43 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
er, that's a bit like "other than the nights I get drunk and punch my girlfriend, I would never hurt her".
Yeah, you need to refuse to discuss it with her...as in, "seriously, if we don't talk about something else, I'm hanging up/leaving". She won't believe you, so she'll probably make you actually follow through with your threat.
Which you should, because having the same unpleasant conversation over and over again is fucking miserable. I ended a friendship for the same thing and even though I felt bad about it, it was like a burden being lifted from my shoulders...no regrets.
posted by the bricabrac man at 1:43 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
I would simply end myh friendship with her. She is not a very decent person. Get a better friend.
posted by Postroad at 1:45 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Postroad at 1:45 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yup. It sounds like you don't want to talk about this anymore, so tell her that. Except instead of skipping straight to a judgment on it ("this is wrong and you're bad"), I'd explain it from a more personal place. Be as honest and specific as possible. "It's difficult for me to talk about this because I feel [actual emotion you feel, e.g., "really worried and sad for you"] when I [action, e.g., "see you feeling so anxious and regretful"].* I care a lot about you, and I'm not judging you here, but you seem somehow unable or unwilling to fix this situation, and meanwhile, it's really hard on me to see you continuing to feel this terrible. So, I'm sorry, but let's not talk about this situation any more. I really like spending time with you, I just don't want to discuss [AffairGuy]. How is your garden doing?"
* Other possibilities:
- I feel really worried when I imagine what would happen if Boyfriend found out.
- I feel angry at you because I imagine being in Boyfriend's shoes and how hurt I'd feel.
- I feel nervous because I have a suspicion that even being a confidant in a situation that could cause so much hurt and pain, could bring great drama into my own life.
... You get the point, don't just say it's "wrong," think about what emotions you have about it, and what causes those emotions. Because surely there are people out there who can listen over and over again to someone talking about doing wrong (e.g., a minister holding confession) and still handle it, so to be real with her, you need to own up to why you can't handle it. It's absolutely 100% fine that you don't want to, but to minimize the impact on the friendship, you need to explain that as something coming from within you.
Now, if what you really feel is "this is making me not want to continue this friendship," you should also be honest about that. "I feel really worried for you, and I feel angry at you because I imagine being in Boyfriend's shoes and how hurt I'd feel. In fact, these feelings are really starting to interfere in how close I feel toward you. I would be making very different choices if I were in your shoes, and while I want you to do what's right for you and your life, I also want you to know the impact that those choices are having on me and on our friendship."
posted by salvia at 1:46 PM on April 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
* Other possibilities:
- I feel really worried when I imagine what would happen if Boyfriend found out.
- I feel angry at you because I imagine being in Boyfriend's shoes and how hurt I'd feel.
- I feel nervous because I have a suspicion that even being a confidant in a situation that could cause so much hurt and pain, could bring great drama into my own life.
... You get the point, don't just say it's "wrong," think about what emotions you have about it, and what causes those emotions. Because surely there are people out there who can listen over and over again to someone talking about doing wrong (e.g., a minister holding confession) and still handle it, so to be real with her, you need to own up to why you can't handle it. It's absolutely 100% fine that you don't want to, but to minimize the impact on the friendship, you need to explain that as something coming from within you.
Now, if what you really feel is "this is making me not want to continue this friendship," you should also be honest about that. "I feel really worried for you, and I feel angry at you because I imagine being in Boyfriend's shoes and how hurt I'd feel. In fact, these feelings are really starting to interfere in how close I feel toward you. I would be making very different choices if I were in your shoes, and while I want you to do what's right for you and your life, I also want you to know the impact that those choices are having on me and on our friendship."
posted by salvia at 1:46 PM on April 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
Yeah, as pointed out above, you say "I disagree with what you are doing in the strongest possible terms. I don't want to hear any more about it, and I'll immediately terminate any conversation that strays too far in that direction. And I won't lie for you, either, neither by omission nor commission, so don't count on me to have your back. Apart from that? I can't tell you what to do, you're a big girl. I hope you enjoy what you're doing enough to be worth the inevitable consequences."
posted by KathrynT at 1:46 PM on April 10, 2010
posted by KathrynT at 1:46 PM on April 10, 2010
I would end contact with this person who is open about being a bad person.
posted by cmoj at 1:57 PM on April 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by cmoj at 1:57 PM on April 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
I don't want her to continue feeling this terrible but she seems unable or somehow unwilling to fix her situation. What would you do?
What I would do? I would stop talking to her because I can't listen to people talk about problems over and over and do nothing to fix them if the means are solidly within their control [i.e. you're managing chronic depression? I am here for you, will help you, realize it's a long road, etc. You have a guy you want to stop sleeping with but can't? In my mind that's a different sort of problem]. So, you have a flow chart of choices here
1. Do you still want to hang out with her and value her friendship despite this? If NO, end the friendship. If yes, go to #2
2. Do you still want to listen to her talk about this guy at all? If NO, do one of the tough love approaches indicated above, i.e. "I can be friends with you but I refuse to talk to you about this. If you continue to talk about this, I will leave" if yes, go to #2
3. Tell your friend, one last time "Look, if this is a problem you really want to solve, because you are some sort of a sex addict or something, let's work on this together to fix it and help you strighten out your relationship with your boyfriend..." and then have a conversation that is more along the lines of "you tell your boyfriend or I will..." with time limits and whatever.
Tell her that if she still wants to talk to you about this guy, she needs to be committed to really ending the relationship and if she's not, she's wasting your time and getting some sort of false reassurance that what she is doing is okay when you clearly do not think that it is.
Absent the moral issues that people may have with this, there's a more trouling [to me] "I can't fix the problems in my own life, woe is me" thing going on here which is annoying to put up with from a friend perspective. It may be that this is an outcropping of depression or something else that needs to be straightened out, or your friend may be a very passive person and really does feel stuck with this. In any case, it's frustrating to try to be a friend to someone like this because they're likely telling you what you want to hear at the same time they're telling the cheater-side-guy at the same time. I feel for you, it's a tough situation, but know that it's okay for you to basically tell her that you don't htink this is okay, and you'd prefer not to talk about it and then keep up your side of it. What she does after that is all her own choosing, though she may complain about it no matter what you do.
posted by jessamyn at 2:13 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
What I would do? I would stop talking to her because I can't listen to people talk about problems over and over and do nothing to fix them if the means are solidly within their control [i.e. you're managing chronic depression? I am here for you, will help you, realize it's a long road, etc. You have a guy you want to stop sleeping with but can't? In my mind that's a different sort of problem]. So, you have a flow chart of choices here
1. Do you still want to hang out with her and value her friendship despite this? If NO, end the friendship. If yes, go to #2
2. Do you still want to listen to her talk about this guy at all? If NO, do one of the tough love approaches indicated above, i.e. "I can be friends with you but I refuse to talk to you about this. If you continue to talk about this, I will leave" if yes, go to #2
3. Tell your friend, one last time "Look, if this is a problem you really want to solve, because you are some sort of a sex addict or something, let's work on this together to fix it and help you strighten out your relationship with your boyfriend..." and then have a conversation that is more along the lines of "you tell your boyfriend or I will..." with time limits and whatever.
Tell her that if she still wants to talk to you about this guy, she needs to be committed to really ending the relationship and if she's not, she's wasting your time and getting some sort of false reassurance that what she is doing is okay when you clearly do not think that it is.
Absent the moral issues that people may have with this, there's a more trouling [to me] "I can't fix the problems in my own life, woe is me" thing going on here which is annoying to put up with from a friend perspective. It may be that this is an outcropping of depression or something else that needs to be straightened out, or your friend may be a very passive person and really does feel stuck with this. In any case, it's frustrating to try to be a friend to someone like this because they're likely telling you what you want to hear at the same time they're telling the cheater-side-guy at the same time. I feel for you, it's a tough situation, but know that it's okay for you to basically tell her that you don't htink this is okay, and you'd prefer not to talk about it and then keep up your side of it. What she does after that is all her own choosing, though she may complain about it no matter what you do.
posted by jessamyn at 2:13 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
In situations where a friend persists in this kind of "bitch bitch, moan moan, poor little me, I absolve responsibility for X situation" I go to Psychologist Mode and turn it back to them: "I hear you saying you were talked into this affair with your coworker, and that you regret it. What do you plan to DO about it?" That usually does one of three things:
1 - shocks the person into silence ("Ulp...")
2 - occasionally, and if you're lucky, acts as a wakeup call
3) - if they continue in the vein of, "I can't DO anything, I was helpless against the Mighty Penis of the Manly Coworker" then you can say, "Since I can't approve of what you are doing, I really don't want to hear about it. I'm still your friend, but this topic is off-limits."
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:18 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
1 - shocks the person into silence ("Ulp...")
2 - occasionally, and if you're lucky, acts as a wakeup call
3) - if they continue in the vein of, "I can't DO anything, I was helpless against the Mighty Penis of the Manly Coworker" then you can say, "Since I can't approve of what you are doing, I really don't want to hear about it. I'm still your friend, but this topic is off-limits."
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:18 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
I had/have a friend EXACTLY like this. A couple years ago, after several months of hearing about it, and being expected to be supportive, etc, I told her that I didn't want to hear about it anymore. I told her that I wasn't going to allow myself to get engaged in a conversation about it, and that if she calls me to talk about him, I would end the conversation. More than once, I had to interrupt her mid-sentence and say "I'm not going to talk about this," and practically hang up on her because she just WOULDN'T STOP talking about it and trying to justify it (to both me and herself).
There is a fine line between being a good friend and enabling someone's behavior. It's difficult to stay non-judgmental, but if you (and she!) knows that what she's involved in isn't helping anyone, you would be a bad friend TO be supportive of it.
All of this said, I don't talk to this girl much anymore. We have mutual friends, and when I go home for holidays we see each other and hang out, but I don't consider us "friends" in the true sense of the word anymore. So be prepared that this could happen between you and your friend. In hindsight, I realize that she simply LOVED the attention and drama that the situation was getting her, and when I refused to acknowledge it anymore, I was no longer someone she wanted to spend time with. (Truth be told, I realized her friendship wasn't doing me any favors either, so I think I'm better off.)
posted by AlisonM at 2:20 PM on April 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
There is a fine line between being a good friend and enabling someone's behavior. It's difficult to stay non-judgmental, but if you (and she!) knows that what she's involved in isn't helping anyone, you would be a bad friend TO be supportive of it.
All of this said, I don't talk to this girl much anymore. We have mutual friends, and when I go home for holidays we see each other and hang out, but I don't consider us "friends" in the true sense of the word anymore. So be prepared that this could happen between you and your friend. In hindsight, I realize that she simply LOVED the attention and drama that the situation was getting her, and when I refused to acknowledge it anymore, I was no longer someone she wanted to spend time with. (Truth be told, I realized her friendship wasn't doing me any favors either, so I think I'm better off.)
posted by AlisonM at 2:20 PM on April 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
I haven't read the other replies, so please forgive me if I'm repeating someone else, but -
It sounds to me like your friend is not seeking advice from you. And I do not think she's bringing up her cheating situation out of any kind of regret, or wanting to figure out how to stop it.
I do not think she has any desire to, as you said, "fix" the situation. I do not think she feels "terrible" about it at all. If she did, she wouldn't keep doing it.
I think she very simply enjoys thinking and talking about the situation. I think she frames it as bringing it up because she feels terrible, simply because that's a better excuse to bring it up and talk about it than "I'm in this thrilling situation and I want to rehash it over and over and over!"
If I were you, I would ice out all mention of this guy from now on. I would ice out all mention of her guilt towards the bf, etc. I would just change the subject.
*IF* I started seeing/hearing something different from her that was more in good faith, like "I cut off all contact with the guy I'm cheating with and admitted to my boyfriend what I had done, now I'm in deep shit, what do I do," I'd be willing to talk about that.
But continuing to bring something up when she's already ignored what she's been told 10 times is not acting in good faith. And saying she magically got "talked into" cheating against her will is not in good faith either, it's simple bullshit.
posted by Ashley801 at 2:24 PM on April 10, 2010
It sounds to me like your friend is not seeking advice from you. And I do not think she's bringing up her cheating situation out of any kind of regret, or wanting to figure out how to stop it.
I do not think she has any desire to, as you said, "fix" the situation. I do not think she feels "terrible" about it at all. If she did, she wouldn't keep doing it.
I think she very simply enjoys thinking and talking about the situation. I think she frames it as bringing it up because she feels terrible, simply because that's a better excuse to bring it up and talk about it than "I'm in this thrilling situation and I want to rehash it over and over and over!"
If I were you, I would ice out all mention of this guy from now on. I would ice out all mention of her guilt towards the bf, etc. I would just change the subject.
*IF* I started seeing/hearing something different from her that was more in good faith, like "I cut off all contact with the guy I'm cheating with and admitted to my boyfriend what I had done, now I'm in deep shit, what do I do," I'd be willing to talk about that.
But continuing to bring something up when she's already ignored what she's been told 10 times is not acting in good faith. And saying she magically got "talked into" cheating against her will is not in good faith either, it's simple bullshit.
posted by Ashley801 at 2:24 PM on April 10, 2010
All of this said, I don't talk to this girl much anymore. We have mutual friends, and when I go home for holidays we see each other and hang out, but I don't consider us "friends" in the true sense of the word anymore. So be prepared that this could happen between you and your friend. In hindsight, I realize that she simply LOVED the attention and drama that the situation was getting her, and when I refused to acknowledge it anymore, I was no longer someone she wanted to spend time with.
Seconded.
The problem with taking the moral high ground and telling your friend that you don't want to hear it anymore is that you'll no longer be rewarding the behavior with a reaction--and oftentimes, people who are perpetually in these situations (and vocal about it) really, really enjoy the attention it gets them, both from the men involved and others. You might say that you're not giving her any positive attention, but all of those choruses about how she needs to stop still lets her feel like she's living an exciting, riveting life worth discussing.
I have a friend like this. Early into the friendship, I did precisely what everyone here suggests: I told her that I was very uncomfortable with cheating, that discussions of cheating made me feel bad and weird, and that I'd prefer not to get roped into them. I emphasized that this was my own weirdness and that I still valued her friendship and loved talking to her about other things.
The result was that she didn't talk to me for a month. Eventually, she told me I made her feel judged.
The friendship could have ended there. In some situations, it would have been no great loss; however, I was being honest when I told my friend I valued other things about our relationship. She still talks about romantic entanglements that make me feel uncomfortable--I've realized that this is just part of her personality--but I get enough out of the friendship otherwise that it's worth my own discomfort over that.
I cope with it like this: first, I remind myself that I have no control over the actions of other people. I remind myself that giving advice to the effect that people should change their behavior rarely helps them enact change. I actually feel better than I used to back when I would routinely tell friends to stop double-crossing their significant others or whatnot. Now, I no longer feel frustrated that they won't listen to what seems, to me, to be clearly good advice. I no longer feel annoyed that people don't change. I recognize that people are who they are and that I can't control that. I feel much more zen, much less stressed.
But at the same time, I don't let myself be a captive audience for conversations that are making me uncomfortable. Clearly, attention feeds and encourages these conversations. So when confronted with people's (anyone's--not just my friend's) stories of willful relationship drama, I try to make sure my reaction is muted, calm, and short. I might say something like "Wow, that's crazy" in a neutral voice, then change the subject. I don't ask questions that encourage further exploration of the topic. I move on to something else, which encourages the other party to do the same.
This all might not be worth it to you. For some people, it's important to have friends who you feel are exemplars of moral behavior. As I've gotten older, though, I've come to feel like that's somewhat unrealistic. Not everyone feels the same way that I do about honesty in relationships, morality, or cheating (and my standards for myself are very high) and I'd be missing out on otherwise rewarding friendships if I held everyone to the same standards that I hold myself.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:44 PM on April 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
Seconded.
The problem with taking the moral high ground and telling your friend that you don't want to hear it anymore is that you'll no longer be rewarding the behavior with a reaction--and oftentimes, people who are perpetually in these situations (and vocal about it) really, really enjoy the attention it gets them, both from the men involved and others. You might say that you're not giving her any positive attention, but all of those choruses about how she needs to stop still lets her feel like she's living an exciting, riveting life worth discussing.
I have a friend like this. Early into the friendship, I did precisely what everyone here suggests: I told her that I was very uncomfortable with cheating, that discussions of cheating made me feel bad and weird, and that I'd prefer not to get roped into them. I emphasized that this was my own weirdness and that I still valued her friendship and loved talking to her about other things.
The result was that she didn't talk to me for a month. Eventually, she told me I made her feel judged.
The friendship could have ended there. In some situations, it would have been no great loss; however, I was being honest when I told my friend I valued other things about our relationship. She still talks about romantic entanglements that make me feel uncomfortable--I've realized that this is just part of her personality--but I get enough out of the friendship otherwise that it's worth my own discomfort over that.
I cope with it like this: first, I remind myself that I have no control over the actions of other people. I remind myself that giving advice to the effect that people should change their behavior rarely helps them enact change. I actually feel better than I used to back when I would routinely tell friends to stop double-crossing their significant others or whatnot. Now, I no longer feel frustrated that they won't listen to what seems, to me, to be clearly good advice. I no longer feel annoyed that people don't change. I recognize that people are who they are and that I can't control that. I feel much more zen, much less stressed.
But at the same time, I don't let myself be a captive audience for conversations that are making me uncomfortable. Clearly, attention feeds and encourages these conversations. So when confronted with people's (anyone's--not just my friend's) stories of willful relationship drama, I try to make sure my reaction is muted, calm, and short. I might say something like "Wow, that's crazy" in a neutral voice, then change the subject. I don't ask questions that encourage further exploration of the topic. I move on to something else, which encourages the other party to do the same.
This all might not be worth it to you. For some people, it's important to have friends who you feel are exemplars of moral behavior. As I've gotten older, though, I've come to feel like that's somewhat unrealistic. Not everyone feels the same way that I do about honesty in relationships, morality, or cheating (and my standards for myself are very high) and I'd be missing out on otherwise rewarding friendships if I held everyone to the same standards that I hold myself.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 2:44 PM on April 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
She is doing a horrible thing to her boyfriend. He needs to know, from you or from her. Two years? TWO YEARS? This guy's time, affection, money, etc. are getting siphoned off by a horrible leech, even if she used to be your friend. Do the right thing.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 2:49 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 2:49 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you endulge her drama and keep being supportive she's going to keep acting dramatic because there are no consequences; to the contrary, someone (you) is paying attention to her and she gets to talk endlessly about herself. I would tell her rather bluntly that you're tired of talking about it, that you've already given her all the advice you can and that she knows what needs to be done and isn't doing it, and that you're sick of being a sounding board for her hemming and hawing and that it isn't cute.
Also, if it were me, I would go ahead and tell her that I've lost all respect for her and I'm no longer interested in being friends with someone who treats other people like she does, but I make a point of not keeping dramatic self-absorbed people in my life. The day I realized that I wasn't a terrible person if I wasn't loyal to my friends no matter what stupid shit they did to themselves or how badly they treated other people was the day my life took a turn for the great. If she took any of your advice to heart or made any effort to resolve the situation, then it would be worth your effort. But she isn't doing that. If she didn't abuse your friendship by pestering you about this stuff every time you see her, then it would be more bearable. But you say she won't stop bothering you about it, and she takes advantage of your patience. She's using you as an outlet for her self-induced stress instead of learning to handle her own problems and make good decisions, and you're letting her because you don't want to be unsupportive. That is kind of you, but it is a mistake. Until she learns to be the kind of person that doesn't create drama for herself and wallow in it, she's going to be a constant source of stress for you. If it wasn't her cheating on her boyfriend of eight years with a married man, it would be something else.
There are two ways she can learn that: she realizes it the (relatively) easy way through self-reflection and talking to people -- it's been two years and she's learned nothing except it gets her attention, so don't keep trying -- or she learns it because there are consequences.
Trust me: sometimes the best and only thing you can do for someone like that is to show them there are consequences for being a self-absorbed drama factory. Some people never learn no matter how many people they drive away -- and all the more reason not to stick around -- but some do. I know it's especially hard to do this to someone you've been friends with for a long time, but I ended up having to do that with nearly half a dozen people I'd been friends with since childhood and life has never been better.
posted by Nattie at 3:06 PM on April 10, 2010 [6 favorites]
Also, if it were me, I would go ahead and tell her that I've lost all respect for her and I'm no longer interested in being friends with someone who treats other people like she does, but I make a point of not keeping dramatic self-absorbed people in my life. The day I realized that I wasn't a terrible person if I wasn't loyal to my friends no matter what stupid shit they did to themselves or how badly they treated other people was the day my life took a turn for the great. If she took any of your advice to heart or made any effort to resolve the situation, then it would be worth your effort. But she isn't doing that. If she didn't abuse your friendship by pestering you about this stuff every time you see her, then it would be more bearable. But you say she won't stop bothering you about it, and she takes advantage of your patience. She's using you as an outlet for her self-induced stress instead of learning to handle her own problems and make good decisions, and you're letting her because you don't want to be unsupportive. That is kind of you, but it is a mistake. Until she learns to be the kind of person that doesn't create drama for herself and wallow in it, she's going to be a constant source of stress for you. If it wasn't her cheating on her boyfriend of eight years with a married man, it would be something else.
There are two ways she can learn that: she realizes it the (relatively) easy way through self-reflection and talking to people -- it's been two years and she's learned nothing except it gets her attention, so don't keep trying -- or she learns it because there are consequences.
Trust me: sometimes the best and only thing you can do for someone like that is to show them there are consequences for being a self-absorbed drama factory. Some people never learn no matter how many people they drive away -- and all the more reason not to stick around -- but some do. I know it's especially hard to do this to someone you've been friends with for a long time, but I ended up having to do that with nearly half a dozen people I'd been friends with since childhood and life has never been better.
posted by Nattie at 3:06 PM on April 10, 2010 [6 favorites]
I just read your post, but didn't read all of the responses- if you REALLY want to help her, cut her off until she fixes the situation (fesses up). Don't enable, all you are doing is telling her that what she's done/doing is alright just by your presence.
Tell her that you would like to spend time with her, and will, once she takes care of her business.
She won't change unless she WANTS to, and it doesn't sound like she does.
posted by TheBones at 3:37 PM on April 10, 2010
Tell her that you would like to spend time with her, and will, once she takes care of her business.
She won't change unless she WANTS to, and it doesn't sound like she does.
posted by TheBones at 3:37 PM on April 10, 2010
I agree with everyone that has said "I wouldn't talk to her again." I wouldn't talk to her again.
If it were me, the next time I saw her and she brought it up, I would call shenanigans and tell her I didn't want to be wrapped up in her drama any more. Personally I hate drama and won't stand it/stand to be around it, but that's just me.
posted by TheBones at 3:42 PM on April 10, 2010
If it were me, the next time I saw her and she brought it up, I would call shenanigans and tell her I didn't want to be wrapped up in her drama any more. Personally I hate drama and won't stand it/stand to be around it, but that's just me.
posted by TheBones at 3:42 PM on April 10, 2010
I have asked a couple of friends not to talk with me about certain recurring or never-changing situations. It worked out fine, because they were very good friends who knew I loved them. But I had to make sure not to talk about how they were doing something wrong, and emphasise my feelings and theirs.
Tell her it hurts to see her continue doing the same things, hoping for a different outcome. Tell her it's hard for you to keep hearing the troubles and the promises that she'll do the right thing.
Be available to do and talk about other things, and let her know that when she's ready to take action in a positive directs, you'll support her.
posted by wryly at 3:58 PM on April 10, 2010
Tell her it hurts to see her continue doing the same things, hoping for a different outcome. Tell her it's hard for you to keep hearing the troubles and the promises that she'll do the right thing.
Be available to do and talk about other things, and let her know that when she's ready to take action in a positive directs, you'll support her.
posted by wryly at 3:58 PM on April 10, 2010
"Whaddaya want me to say here? I mean, I've told you before this is pretty bullshit behavior that I think is emotionally unhealthy for everyone involved, and yet you keep going back to it. I'm not gonna play your woe-is-me game, and I'm not going to condone it, so, seriously, what do you want? Because while I'm your friend and here to support you, I'd at least like to talk about something else if you're not going to listen to me."
posted by klangklangston at 4:19 PM on April 10, 2010
posted by klangklangston at 4:19 PM on April 10, 2010
instead of just cutting her off and not speaking to her again w/out explanation, i would call her, or wait till the next time you see her, and make a strong statement about how you feel about her situation. and say that this is why i can't hang out with you anymore. because, in that, you are being a friend to her and also drawing a line. and then don't go back. i always think that people who know about these indiscretions have a responsibility to tell the one who is cheated on, but instinctually i feel like, in this situation, it's not your problemo.
posted by lakersfan1222 at 4:35 PM on April 10, 2010
posted by lakersfan1222 at 4:35 PM on April 10, 2010
Get away from her immediately, as far away as possible. Nothing good can come from her, not until she learns these life lessons. If ever she does. Don't say anything to her live-in unless pressed somehow, spare him this jagged, burning knife plunged deep into his heart, hope along with me that he somehow gets away from this liar without getting ruined.
Do you know that this can ruin a person? It can.
And: You, standing by, presumably speaking to her live-in "love" as if all is okay -- you are helping continue this lie. You're putting a stamp of approval upon it, covert, yes, but -- you are in this. Consider: How will he feel if he discovers that this has been going on, that you've known about it all along, that you've sat at table with him and allowed him to be gulled by her. Imagine that breach of trust. Complete incivility. Don't be party to this.
I wish him and the other spouse good luck. They will need it.
posted by dancestoblue at 4:44 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Do you know that this can ruin a person? It can.
And: You, standing by, presumably speaking to her live-in "love" as if all is okay -- you are helping continue this lie. You're putting a stamp of approval upon it, covert, yes, but -- you are in this. Consider: How will he feel if he discovers that this has been going on, that you've known about it all along, that you've sat at table with him and allowed him to be gulled by her. Imagine that breach of trust. Complete incivility. Don't be party to this.
I wish him and the other spouse good luck. They will need it.
posted by dancestoblue at 4:44 PM on April 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
I would just like to say that silence is acceptance.
If you avoid talking with her about this or if you avoid taking any type of action in persuading her to either tell her boyfriend herself or to tell him yourself, you are in a manner accepting her behavior. And no matter how large or small your circle of friends, when this gets out, and it will get out, you'll be the person who knew and didn't say anything. It makes you culpable, even if you are in a difficult position.
Personally, I don't think someone who is cheating deserves support. The person cheated on deserves support and further, deserves to know!
I mean, wouldn't you want to know if your spouse/longterm partner were cheating on you?
posted by zizzle at 5:13 PM on April 10, 2010
If you avoid talking with her about this or if you avoid taking any type of action in persuading her to either tell her boyfriend herself or to tell him yourself, you are in a manner accepting her behavior. And no matter how large or small your circle of friends, when this gets out, and it will get out, you'll be the person who knew and didn't say anything. It makes you culpable, even if you are in a difficult position.
Personally, I don't think someone who is cheating deserves support. The person cheated on deserves support and further, deserves to know!
I mean, wouldn't you want to know if your spouse/longterm partner were cheating on you?
posted by zizzle at 5:13 PM on April 10, 2010
DON'T involve yourself by telling the boyfriend.
Tell her you care about her as a friend, but that you disapprove of what she's doing, and it upsets you. Tell her that for these reasons, the issue is off-limits in your conversations from now on.
posted by cleverevans at 7:07 PM on April 10, 2010
Tell her you care about her as a friend, but that you disapprove of what she's doing, and it upsets you. Tell her that for these reasons, the issue is off-limits in your conversations from now on.
posted by cleverevans at 7:07 PM on April 10, 2010
I don't turn my back on friends who have problems, but I won't enable them either. I had a friend who was in a situation she wouldn't get out of - no indiscretion, but a relationship that wasn't helping her - and I finally said one day, without much thinking, "Everything I have to say about this situation I have already said. I can't help you. You know how I feel. If you have something completely new, or if you've decided you're moving out, let me know and I'll be right over with the truck."
I always felt that talking to me was her convincing herself that it was okay to do what she was doing, even though I repeatedly told her I didn't think it was.
And eventually I got the phone call and I came over with the truck.
I nth that telling her that you no longer wish to discuss the subject is the correct course of action. But if you're really her friend, you can also tell her that anything you can do to make her stop doing what she's doing, you are willing to help her with. I mean, you wouldn't turn your back on your friend with a drug or alcohol addiction, would you? But then stick to it.
It is not your business to tell the boyfriend. I have done this. I will never ever do it again. Because he didn't believe me, and then he blamed me for not telling him sooner, and it turned into being MY FAULT somehow. Don't get involved. Unless the boyfriend is as good of a friend as she is, this is NOT your responsibility.
posted by micawber at 8:10 PM on April 10, 2010
I always felt that talking to me was her convincing herself that it was okay to do what she was doing, even though I repeatedly told her I didn't think it was.
And eventually I got the phone call and I came over with the truck.
I nth that telling her that you no longer wish to discuss the subject is the correct course of action. But if you're really her friend, you can also tell her that anything you can do to make her stop doing what she's doing, you are willing to help her with. I mean, you wouldn't turn your back on your friend with a drug or alcohol addiction, would you? But then stick to it.
It is not your business to tell the boyfriend. I have done this. I will never ever do it again. Because he didn't believe me, and then he blamed me for not telling him sooner, and it turned into being MY FAULT somehow. Don't get involved. Unless the boyfriend is as good of a friend as she is, this is NOT your responsibility.
posted by micawber at 8:10 PM on April 10, 2010
Friend, I'm so uncomfortable knowing about this. If you and BF are to have a future, you've got to deal with this. It's not fair to BF. As your friend, I want to be here for you, but I'm terribly worried about this.
Go from there. If Friend wants to continue, then make to rule to stop talking about it. Maybe friend is ambivalent about BF, or has some other issues. As a friend, be there to listen to troubles, and gently nudge her towards honesty, because it will work out better for her in the long run.
posted by theora55 at 7:48 AM on April 11, 2010
Go from there. If Friend wants to continue, then make to rule to stop talking about it. Maybe friend is ambivalent about BF, or has some other issues. As a friend, be there to listen to troubles, and gently nudge her towards honesty, because it will work out better for her in the long run.
posted by theora55 at 7:48 AM on April 11, 2010
As far as bad things go, cheating is not really that bad.
What part of "Dude stands to lose a condo he paid half for, contract any number of STDs, be on the child support hook for some other dude's kid(s), and squander additional years beyond the eight he's wasted" isn't horrible? Cheating is "no big deal" when people to lie to themselves about what they're doing. In the real world, it has very bad, very likely to occur consequences.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:09 PM on April 12, 2010 [2 favorites]
What part of "Dude stands to lose a condo he paid half for, contract any number of STDs, be on the child support hook for some other dude's kid(s), and squander additional years beyond the eight he's wasted" isn't horrible? Cheating is "no big deal" when people to lie to themselves about what they're doing. In the real world, it has very bad, very likely to occur consequences.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 1:09 PM on April 12, 2010 [2 favorites]
I had a friend like this. Want to hear the sentence that got her to shut up?
"Again? Haha, you're so gross!"
It was the waiter in the restaurant we always went to for lunch.
posted by Sallyfur at 2:56 AM on April 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
"Again? Haha, you're so gross!"
It was the waiter in the restaurant we always went to for lunch.
posted by Sallyfur at 2:56 AM on April 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:17 PM on April 10, 2010 [9 favorites]