"...MUST BE IN WRIGHTING..."
February 16, 2010 8:21 PM Subscribe
Every once in a while you hear stories about speeding tickets and parking tickets that get thrown out because of misprints. My apartment lease is full of them. YANML, but is it enforceable?
I'm having fun with my property manager lately. It's starting to get down to the nitty-gritty of the lease. I'm currently month-to-month, and just about ready to give notice and move out. But, I'm worried that he's going to try to press some of the more obscure aspects of the lease on me.
This thing is a joke amongst legal documents. Words are misspelled left and right and the zip code of the property is incorrect where it describes which unit I'm renting. There's plenty of other conflicting information in it, too.
Given all of that, is it a legally enforceable document? I'm not planning on walking away or anything, but if he tries to hit me with extra charges, how likely is it that I could have the lease voided?
I'm in California.
I'm having fun with my property manager lately. It's starting to get down to the nitty-gritty of the lease. I'm currently month-to-month, and just about ready to give notice and move out. But, I'm worried that he's going to try to press some of the more obscure aspects of the lease on me.
This thing is a joke amongst legal documents. Words are misspelled left and right and the zip code of the property is incorrect where it describes which unit I'm renting. There's plenty of other conflicting information in it, too.
Given all of that, is it a legally enforceable document? I'm not planning on walking away or anything, but if he tries to hit me with extra charges, how likely is it that I could have the lease voided?
I'm in California.
it's my understanding that the tickets thrown out are substantial misprints like "I drive a blue kia and it says black ford f150" not "he misspelled blue" (also - some of these stories can be chocked up to "cop didn't show up to court" so the incorrect info isn't the sole reason).
without detailing all the problems with the lease it would be impossible for us to even hazard a guess about the legality of the document - but from what you've mentioned here, it doesn't seem like this is a leg you can stand on.
posted by nadawi at 8:28 PM on February 16, 2010
without detailing all the problems with the lease it would be impossible for us to even hazard a guess about the legality of the document - but from what you've mentioned here, it doesn't seem like this is a leg you can stand on.
posted by nadawi at 8:28 PM on February 16, 2010
Response by poster: The property zip code is the one I was really wondering about. It says that I'm renting the unit described as such, which technically doesn't exist.
posted by hwyengr at 8:30 PM on February 16, 2010
posted by hwyengr at 8:30 PM on February 16, 2010
But, I'm worried that he's going to try to press some of the more obscure aspects of the lease on me.
if it were me, i'd be finding out if those "obscure aspects" are legally enforceable.
posted by nadawi at 8:30 PM on February 16, 2010
if it were me, i'd be finding out if those "obscure aspects" are legally enforceable.
posted by nadawi at 8:30 PM on February 16, 2010
No one can or will tell you whether a document they have never read is legally enforceable, void or voidable. The best they will do is tell you that there's more hype than substance to most of those stories of tickets being thrown out, and that those scenarios are not particularly analogous to private, voluntary contracts.
posted by bunnycup at 8:31 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by bunnycup at 8:31 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It's just a zip code. If it has the right address, no judge will care about an incorrect zip code.
Unless the spelling mistakes or typos create another meaning that could be a valid interpretation (i.e. not "I am renting a roob") then I think you're fantasizing a bit too hard here.
IANAL but I sleep with one.
posted by rokusan at 8:40 PM on February 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
Unless the spelling mistakes or typos create another meaning that could be a valid interpretation (i.e. not "I am renting a roob") then I think you're fantasizing a bit too hard here.
IANAL but I sleep with one.
posted by rokusan at 8:40 PM on February 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
Lawyer her, but I'm not your lawyer and this is not legal advice. One of the best rules of thumb I try to give people is, the law is based on trying to enforce fairness. That's the ideal anyway. So, most of the time, if you think it would be unfair for the law to be X, the law is probably not X.
You're trying to be cute here, and get out of a contract on a technicality. Keep in mind any case, if it were to get that far, would end up in front of a judge and/or jury. Judges and juries are not computers. They are real, live people with notions of fairness. Neither is likely to appreciate someone getting cute. Fair is enforcing the agreement between the parties, whatever that happened to be.
That having been said, if there are parts of the contract that really do conflict with each other (one says Buyer has to do X, another says Seller has to do X), there's a much better argument that it's unenforceable, for the simple reason that you can't really determine what the parties agreed to.
posted by kingjoeshmoe at 8:56 PM on February 16, 2010
You're trying to be cute here, and get out of a contract on a technicality. Keep in mind any case, if it were to get that far, would end up in front of a judge and/or jury. Judges and juries are not computers. They are real, live people with notions of fairness. Neither is likely to appreciate someone getting cute. Fair is enforcing the agreement between the parties, whatever that happened to be.
That having been said, if there are parts of the contract that really do conflict with each other (one says Buyer has to do X, another says Seller has to do X), there's a much better argument that it's unenforceable, for the simple reason that you can't really determine what the parties agreed to.
posted by kingjoeshmoe at 8:56 PM on February 16, 2010
Traffic citations (parking, speeding, etc..) are criminal offenses (albeit minor). Nonetheless, traffic citations still have to comply with certain technicalities, such as being sworn, verified, etc... as required by the applicable statutes. Leases, on the other hand, are merely voluntary contracts. If terms of contracts are ambiguous, vague or subject to more than one interpretation, courts apply rules of interpretation and construction to judicially determine what the meaning is or what intended at the time of signing to be (or even what the parties actually did after signing notwithstanding the terms of the contract).
In the criminal citation instance, there are certain requirements which can't be met simply by being "close enough" even if the substance of the ticket is correct. For example, a few years ago a number of local municipalities around here started installing automatic cameras at intersections. Blow a red light, the camera takes a picture and you get a citation sent to you in the mail. When they first started doing this, the citation form didn't contain the proper affidavit block for the officer to sign. These were challenged as being insufficient and thrown out by the court. Problem solved when the cities simply changed their forms to include the proper affidavit language.
Note: My wife sleeps with a lawyer, but that lawyer is not your lawyer. I hope. If not, then we got a whole 'nother problem and it doesn't involve leases. :)
posted by webhund at 8:58 PM on February 16, 2010
In the criminal citation instance, there are certain requirements which can't be met simply by being "close enough" even if the substance of the ticket is correct. For example, a few years ago a number of local municipalities around here started installing automatic cameras at intersections. Blow a red light, the camera takes a picture and you get a citation sent to you in the mail. When they first started doing this, the citation form didn't contain the proper affidavit block for the officer to sign. These were challenged as being insufficient and thrown out by the court. Problem solved when the cities simply changed their forms to include the proper affidavit language.
Note: My wife sleeps with a lawyer, but that lawyer is not your lawyer. I hope. If not, then we got a whole 'nother problem and it doesn't involve leases. :)
posted by webhund at 8:58 PM on February 16, 2010
Imagine yourself saying this: "Yes your Honor, I believe I should be let out of this lease because the zip code is wrong."
I am not your lawyer and this is not legal advice.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:10 PM on February 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
I am not your lawyer and this is not legal advice.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:10 PM on February 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
Let me put it to you this way: When you signed the lease, did you warrant to honor it? Did you sign it as proof of that warrant?
Of course you did. Case closed.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:24 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Of course you did. Case closed.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:24 PM on February 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
IANAL but I wanted to get out of a lease once. There were a number of mistakes: the contract stated that the lease was for 6 months, but the written dates only amounted to 5 months, which also made the rent per month and total rent owed inconsistent. These mistakes did not void the contract however, because it could be proven that the original intent was for 6 months. Unfortunately, the intent of the contract overrides the semantics.
posted by msharp at 9:31 PM on February 16, 2010
posted by msharp at 9:31 PM on February 16, 2010
AH! But here is the kicker - in California, state law governing tenant/landlord relationships trumps the lease.
For example, I could write anything in a lease, and you could sign it - but if it's not in the state law... as a landlord, I'm really only hoping you follow the crazy rules I make up.
If it gets sticky, memail.
I have an aagla account and can call them for cursory clarification on something specific if you need. If it turns out you need a lawyer (you probably won't if you give proper notice) I know a few.
Cheers.
posted by jbenben at 9:58 PM on February 16, 2010
For example, I could write anything in a lease, and you could sign it - but if it's not in the state law... as a landlord, I'm really only hoping you follow the crazy rules I make up.
If it gets sticky, memail.
I have an aagla account and can call them for cursory clarification on something specific if you need. If it turns out you need a lawyer (you probably won't if you give proper notice) I know a few.
Cheers.
posted by jbenben at 9:58 PM on February 16, 2010
I'm currently month-to-month, and just about ready to give notice and move out. But, I'm worried that he's going to try to press some of the more obscure aspects of the lease on me.
I'm a landlord. You're missing the point that you're living in the best renter's market in decades and hold the power. Clear your mind of this concentration on the trees and see the forest. You want to stay for 12 months. What do you demand for that 12-month guarantee you are giving the landlord? Don't you realize that if he comes up with some little provision, all you have to do is say "No, I guess I'm walking"? You only need give 30 days notice.
Also, as long as you don't make the lease violate state law per jbenben's point, you can put any provisions into the lease, or strike them out, as the two parties can agree. Theoretically you could write into the lease that the property manager prepares your bath with essential oils and gives you a full body massage every night. No, you don't want that either, but the point is that neither will he. In fact, his fear is that you'll walk and deprive him of the rent for a month or more that your unit should generate.
Finally, zip codes are not really a legal descriptor. They're just a post office convenience of no bearing to the lease.
Anyway, all you need to do is ask for a corrected copy of the lease, spelling errors and zip codes, before you sign. Say you don't like signing your name to unprofessionally prepared materials or whatever.
posted by dhartung at 10:30 PM on February 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm a landlord. You're missing the point that you're living in the best renter's market in decades and hold the power. Clear your mind of this concentration on the trees and see the forest. You want to stay for 12 months. What do you demand for that 12-month guarantee you are giving the landlord? Don't you realize that if he comes up with some little provision, all you have to do is say "No, I guess I'm walking"? You only need give 30 days notice.
Also, as long as you don't make the lease violate state law per jbenben's point, you can put any provisions into the lease, or strike them out, as the two parties can agree. Theoretically you could write into the lease that the property manager prepares your bath with essential oils and gives you a full body massage every night. No, you don't want that either, but the point is that neither will he. In fact, his fear is that you'll walk and deprive him of the rent for a month or more that your unit should generate.
Finally, zip codes are not really a legal descriptor. They're just a post office convenience of no bearing to the lease.
Anyway, all you need to do is ask for a corrected copy of the lease, spelling errors and zip codes, before you sign. Say you don't like signing your name to unprofessionally prepared materials or whatever.
posted by dhartung at 10:30 PM on February 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
IANAL, IANYL, yadda yadda yadda.
Let's think common sense here. You've lived with this lease for awhile now, to the point where it's month-to-month. Whatever 'extra charges' you think the landlord is going to try and pull will have to be justified. Ask to see the justification, and either refuse to pay, or contest the issue in small-claims court. In the end, a court will overlook spelling / grammar errors in favor of the intent / reason behind the contract.
posted by chrisinseoul at 2:26 AM on February 17, 2010
Let's think common sense here. You've lived with this lease for awhile now, to the point where it's month-to-month. Whatever 'extra charges' you think the landlord is going to try and pull will have to be justified. Ask to see the justification, and either refuse to pay, or contest the issue in small-claims court. In the end, a court will overlook spelling / grammar errors in favor of the intent / reason behind the contract.
posted by chrisinseoul at 2:26 AM on February 17, 2010
The general rule, apart from statutory requirements, and apart from California (which is its own weird legal world much of the time) is that the contract will be interpreted to enforce the intent of the parties, as shown by the contract. None of the "technicalities" that you are thinking of are likely to help you.
posted by megatherium at 4:03 AM on February 17, 2010
posted by megatherium at 4:03 AM on February 17, 2010
Best answer: I work for an attorney who was trying to get clients out of a lease. The property address on the lease was incorrect (I forget what the exact mistake on it was, but it was about the level of a wrong zip code). My boss tried to say that because the address listed on the lease did not exist, the lease could not be enforced.
He knew it was a long shot; he told me he was just trying it to see if it would work. It didn't.
posted by Lucinda at 5:02 AM on February 17, 2010
He knew it was a long shot; he told me he was just trying it to see if it would work. It didn't.
posted by Lucinda at 5:02 AM on February 17, 2010
Best answer: A contract is an agreement whereby two or more parties agree to exchange consideration. Contracts can be memorialized in writing, and indeed, some contracts must be in writing to be enforceable, but the document is not the contract itself. The contract consists of a meeting of the minds regarding an exchange of legally cognizable mutual promises towards a legally cognizable end.
Pretty much the only way that errors in the document will result in the entire contract being voided is if the errors indicate that there was not in fact a meeting of the minds, i.e. it's no longer clear that both parties had the same things in mind when they signed. Courts are inclined to enforce contracts wherever possible, so they'll go to significant lengths to find evidence of a valid contract.
Because it seems that you've moved in and are paying rent, there's obviously a meeting of the minds as to the location of the property and the contract price. The fact that there's an error in the document about the address isn't going to change the fact that you both knew which property you were talking about.
But even if there is a really material error evidencing a lack of agreement, what's far more likely is that the term which contains the error will either be reformed by the court to what the evidence suggests you both meant, or, if that can't be done, be thrown out, leaving the rest of the contract intact. So if, for example, the contract contained an arbitration clause requiring a particular the use of a particular arbitration service, but the service referred to does not actually exist, the court would probably either require the parties to select another service or would simply pick one for them. But it wouldn't throw out the contract, and it probably wouldn't even throw out the arbitration clause.
In short, courts privilege substance over form, and wherever possible, courts will enforce the substance of contracts in spite of errors in the drafting.
posted by valkyryn at 6:07 AM on February 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Pretty much the only way that errors in the document will result in the entire contract being voided is if the errors indicate that there was not in fact a meeting of the minds, i.e. it's no longer clear that both parties had the same things in mind when they signed. Courts are inclined to enforce contracts wherever possible, so they'll go to significant lengths to find evidence of a valid contract.
Because it seems that you've moved in and are paying rent, there's obviously a meeting of the minds as to the location of the property and the contract price. The fact that there's an error in the document about the address isn't going to change the fact that you both knew which property you were talking about.
But even if there is a really material error evidencing a lack of agreement, what's far more likely is that the term which contains the error will either be reformed by the court to what the evidence suggests you both meant, or, if that can't be done, be thrown out, leaving the rest of the contract intact. So if, for example, the contract contained an arbitration clause requiring a particular the use of a particular arbitration service, but the service referred to does not actually exist, the court would probably either require the parties to select another service or would simply pick one for them. But it wouldn't throw out the contract, and it probably wouldn't even throw out the arbitration clause.
In short, courts privilege substance over form, and wherever possible, courts will enforce the substance of contracts in spite of errors in the drafting.
posted by valkyryn at 6:07 AM on February 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
I was just dropping by to say what valkyryn said.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:58 AM on February 17, 2010
posted by craven_morhead at 7:58 AM on February 17, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
I seriously doubt you could contest a lease on the grounds of spelling mistakes or bad grammar. At the very least, you read and accepted the lease... mistakes and all. You understood well enough what you were getting into at the time.
My gut feeling is that a court might throw out parts that are logically conflicting as unenforceable. But probably only those specific parts.
posted by sbutler at 8:27 PM on February 16, 2010