Miserable Snoop
January 10, 2010 12:04 AM Subscribe
I've snooped. He's lying. We're both in violation. Long, long story inside....
I've had a very good, positive, forward-moving LDR with current BF for 1 year, 9 months now, or at least what I have thought was a good one. First the good: We are in driving distance, so we have been very diligent about seeing each other as much as possible, so the most time that goes by is 2-3 weeks, adn due to flexibility in both our work, we can spend as much as a week at each other's place and work remotely. We have talked seriously about future together, feel as if we are committed to each other for the long-term, etc. etc. (I am early 40, he's 39). When together, and even apart when we're talking, it's great, funny, loving, etc.. Always having to part has become harder and harder. We are both very independent, no previous marriages, both been in previous serious long-term relationships.
Ok, the bad: since last summer, I have been snooping. I had completely felt trust with him, up until one particular afternoon, when something made me question about what he told me he was up to (going to lunch with someone), and something just nagged at me.
Digression: IMportant note: I have had serious trust issues with relationships my whole life--partly due to absent or passive mother/alcoholic, intimidating father who died when i was young/ no family boundaries/no positive role models with relationships...list goes on and on. Also, I'm not innocent, I cheated on boyfriends in my twenties. And I have been cheated on and lied to. So, trust has been hard to learn and earn for me and anyone I've been in relationships with, but in my own diligent, determined way, I have tried to work through this. At the same time, whether it's a curse or not, I'm sincerely hyper-sensitive to when I feel as if I'm being played or lied to or anything in that realm, becuase unfortunately, I have done the whole "been there, done that".
And I have tried, through different bouts of counseling since my late twenties, to work on these seriously relationship-destroying qualities and take ownership for the fact taht i AM an adult, not to blame childhood this or that, I am trustworthy, therefore, others CAN be trusted, etc. etc. I have come out in the end almost like I have heard about drug addicts who give up drugs but switch to religion in an extreme way. I haven't cheated in a relationship since my twenties, and now, when I'm in a relationship, I am completely and unequivocally honest, trusting, and up front about who I'm with, what i'm doing, etc. , even got to a point where I was almost afraid of looking at another guy while in a relationship becuase I felt guilty...although that has passed and I realize that it's ok to look and even, yikes!, think that another guy is attractive.
BF mentioned trust issues in previous relationships, but not to the level that I have, and he totally and completely trusts me (probably because of how much he is reassured by who I'm with/what i'm doing). I feel as if it's becuae I am much more up front about any male who I deal with, professionally and personally. I feel as if MY trust for him really has not had the chance to build, as mentioned above, it takes me longer. And i do know that i'm capable of trusting, I just have to have that complete, up front, no secrets at all--to some extent-- kind of trust.
As a matter of fact, I felt so absolutely trusting of him, it was remarkable, adn thinking "i trust him more even with him 5 hours away then guys i've dated who lived right in town..." So, needless to say, things were rosy. In the first 6 months or so, we were talkign of marriage, discussing rings, moving in (we have slowed down with that obviously bc we both knew that we needed to get to know each other and just "be" first). We'd have serious discussions more and more, initiated by me because I started to feel as if "somethign was up". Although I did try to keep this at a minimum bc, yes, he has given me every indication and has said so, that any serious discussion is like "confrontation" to him and he doesn't like it because it always ends up badly or with fighting(regardless of how gentle or non-blaming I have tried to talk with and understand him). His responses always included "i can't mention any other girls name around you or to you or anything without you getting defensive or bent out of shape, i've learned --from me and his other exes apparently--that when it comes ot other women, to just not say anythign at all, in any way, shape or form" Yeah, I'm sure there's a bit of me sort of holding back, but, keep in mind, I'm actively trying to rationalize any kind of jealous or insecure feelings that might be unwarranted. I don't know if this gives enough of a background, but I know this is getting to be long-winded!
So, that first time I felt something not feel right, I just randomly decided to try his email user and pass. Well, it worked. And yes, with heart beating out of my chest and absolute fear and dread and panic engulfing me, I continued to read, re-read, and then re-read some more, all of his emails. To girls (who he was about to meet up with at an upcoming HS reunion), so they were exes, old interests, with him opening up very, very seriously about himself and old feelings and current feelings and missing them and thinking abut them and "butterflies when I saw your email" and "what ifs". One ex had sent him nude pix of herself (these emails had all been current, the pix were recently sent, etc.). The two "serious" girls (who are both married with kids), both obligingly returned the reminiscing and walk down memory lane. ONe lives in another country, telling him "hey it's only x number of hours of flight, let me know when you're nearby", and one lives in his hometown, only a few hours away, where he goes to frequently, without me. And I do understand that reunions tend to do this type of thing to people.
So, I continue to read the emails, frequent exchanges between the hometown girl (who, btw, is VERY unhappily married, lookign to separate) and "keeps thinking about" my BF. Talked about "crossing the line if given a chance" (on her part, he didn't exactly say "no", but he has not discouraged this whole thing). He has encouraged her to send him pictures, they say "love you" to each other, "miss you" "thinking about you"....all the things he says to me.
And it has just gone on and on, all the while, for about 6-7 months now, I have kept up appearances, sort of "forget" about it (maybe deny?) it when we are together and have been able to compartmentalize it and believe hiim when he does tell me that he loves me, misses me. I know this is twisted, but I keep hoping that I will read an email to one of these girls where he actually talks me "up" (he sort of mentions me, but only in passing, and it seems downplayed).
Snooping has led me to look through his phone (texting to hometown girl, who was disappointed I'd be with him at reunion, he replied how he was also bummed that I was going to the reunion)
Snooping has led me to his FB account as well (same pass) and come to find out that he was NOT with his old best friend from home las tnight for dinner (a guy), but that they had met for LUNCH. I know he was at dinner with someone--in his hometown, but it wasn't who he said he was with.
Ok, for the record, one time, last summer, after finding an unfinished letter to "other country girl" with serious confessing of still thinking of her, etc. I confessed to him that I had snooped adn that I was sorry, but WTF is going on? I was ready and prepared taht we would break up bc of my snooping, and bc I obviously couldn't believe what he had told me about not being over exes and out of his past. He didn't even get mad over my snooping, he was just more worried that I was not going to forgive him about the letter. He convinced me, and i chose to believe, that the letter was "unfinished", which it was, and that he was about to tell her all about me and about to propose to me (although, gut tells me and still tells me otherwise, but I've been working on this trust thing....)
In our very first serious talk after we met, talking about exes and all, I asked, what girls he keeps in contact with and who is basically in his life bc I didn't want any surprises. I wanted to just know up front who was in his life, who his close friends are, especially the girls.
Since all this has gone down, I have asked him the saem thing. Granted, once I simply pointed out to him how "weird" it was for him to keep going to lunch with one friend of his (a girl) who kept expecting it to be on him every time (and he would bitch about it, every time she'd contact him, he'd say "looks like amy is hungry again") as a joke. (he would talk about how he hates being "used" and that she was clearly doing so).
So, he took my "weird" comment as being jealous, which I continue to defend that it was NOT out of jealousy, just logic! And that takes us to the "I can't mention any girls to you or you'll get jealous" accusation. And it really, really pisses me off bc I have been working really, really hard to trust and just believe him. I told him I won't be in a relationship where it ultimately means he'll "lie by omission" or just flat out lie to me, as he did about dinner last night.
Bottom line is that, as twisted as it sounds, I think we'd have a really good chance if he just opened up abou who his "friends" are. And since i've learned all this information by being the snoop that I have been, I can't confront him about it or call him out on it. We honestly do get along great otherwise any of this, and I guess it's pretty twisted that I'm still hanging on now that I read this, or continue to keep violating his trust, or whatever it is I'm doing. I am not happy with myself for doing this, but I don't know what to do. I've talked with a friend who just says "well, just stop reading his emails". well, i've tried doing that, but I can't stop now. We do still honestly talk about the future, we've already talked about hristmas 2010.
I just don't know what is going on with hiim, that he could keep encouraging these girls and turn around and make plans with me for the future and keeping me on the line (although, admittedly, engagement has not been brought up again, but moving in together has, he would sell his house, and moving in for us both indicates the next step would be engagement/marriage).
I can't confront him, but I am going absolutely crazy. I cannot stop. Somehow, miraculously, I've been able to accomplish work during the day, and even maintain through the past months. But what do I do with all this information and that he has absolutely NO clue what I have been doing? But I am also discovering that he hasn't been up front with ME and has lied to me about what is going on with him and other women. Is he simply just trying to avoid hurting my feelings? Is he leading them on to avoid hurting their feelings?
Sorry for the dreadfully long post. Here's a quick summary to possibly make it easier for replies!
1. we met, trust was bulding
2. something felt off, i snooped 13 months into relationship; trust stopped building--i confessed, but he pleaded "it's not what you think" ok, start re-building trust
3. although rebuilding has never really taken off, i can't stop reading emails, FB, phone texts bc i keep finding stuff that is not trustworthy=perpetuating
4. we still continue as if nothing is going on (great sex, good times when we are together, fun, talking...)
5. he contines to "withhold" info from me about other girls, regardless of how gently, firm, and unemotionally i've tried to ask him about it and tell him how important it is to me that we find a compromise--i start to feel as if i'm being too needy and jealous, although i'm simply asking for his help
6. i continue to violate and go crazy bc of # 5 and 7
7. he continues to violate (it's "irrelevant"-his words--about if and when he meets up with or communicating with other women)=i'm NOT asking or expecting him to "report" to me, i just want to know what goes on in his everyday life, when it does involve other people (and yes, i am interested when he does meet up with guy friends as well)
8. I wouldn't have a problem with it, i could seriously work with it, and i WOULD be able to stop, but i am feeling stonewalled the couple of times we've discussed it
I need help. I appreciate your time to read this and your replies.
I've had a very good, positive, forward-moving LDR with current BF for 1 year, 9 months now, or at least what I have thought was a good one. First the good: We are in driving distance, so we have been very diligent about seeing each other as much as possible, so the most time that goes by is 2-3 weeks, adn due to flexibility in both our work, we can spend as much as a week at each other's place and work remotely. We have talked seriously about future together, feel as if we are committed to each other for the long-term, etc. etc. (I am early 40, he's 39). When together, and even apart when we're talking, it's great, funny, loving, etc.. Always having to part has become harder and harder. We are both very independent, no previous marriages, both been in previous serious long-term relationships.
Ok, the bad: since last summer, I have been snooping. I had completely felt trust with him, up until one particular afternoon, when something made me question about what he told me he was up to (going to lunch with someone), and something just nagged at me.
Digression: IMportant note: I have had serious trust issues with relationships my whole life--partly due to absent or passive mother/alcoholic, intimidating father who died when i was young/ no family boundaries/no positive role models with relationships...list goes on and on. Also, I'm not innocent, I cheated on boyfriends in my twenties. And I have been cheated on and lied to. So, trust has been hard to learn and earn for me and anyone I've been in relationships with, but in my own diligent, determined way, I have tried to work through this. At the same time, whether it's a curse or not, I'm sincerely hyper-sensitive to when I feel as if I'm being played or lied to or anything in that realm, becuase unfortunately, I have done the whole "been there, done that".
And I have tried, through different bouts of counseling since my late twenties, to work on these seriously relationship-destroying qualities and take ownership for the fact taht i AM an adult, not to blame childhood this or that, I am trustworthy, therefore, others CAN be trusted, etc. etc. I have come out in the end almost like I have heard about drug addicts who give up drugs but switch to religion in an extreme way. I haven't cheated in a relationship since my twenties, and now, when I'm in a relationship, I am completely and unequivocally honest, trusting, and up front about who I'm with, what i'm doing, etc. , even got to a point where I was almost afraid of looking at another guy while in a relationship becuase I felt guilty...although that has passed and I realize that it's ok to look and even, yikes!, think that another guy is attractive.
BF mentioned trust issues in previous relationships, but not to the level that I have, and he totally and completely trusts me (probably because of how much he is reassured by who I'm with/what i'm doing). I feel as if it's becuae I am much more up front about any male who I deal with, professionally and personally. I feel as if MY trust for him really has not had the chance to build, as mentioned above, it takes me longer. And i do know that i'm capable of trusting, I just have to have that complete, up front, no secrets at all--to some extent-- kind of trust.
As a matter of fact, I felt so absolutely trusting of him, it was remarkable, adn thinking "i trust him more even with him 5 hours away then guys i've dated who lived right in town..." So, needless to say, things were rosy. In the first 6 months or so, we were talkign of marriage, discussing rings, moving in (we have slowed down with that obviously bc we both knew that we needed to get to know each other and just "be" first). We'd have serious discussions more and more, initiated by me because I started to feel as if "somethign was up". Although I did try to keep this at a minimum bc, yes, he has given me every indication and has said so, that any serious discussion is like "confrontation" to him and he doesn't like it because it always ends up badly or with fighting(regardless of how gentle or non-blaming I have tried to talk with and understand him). His responses always included "i can't mention any other girls name around you or to you or anything without you getting defensive or bent out of shape, i've learned --from me and his other exes apparently--that when it comes ot other women, to just not say anythign at all, in any way, shape or form" Yeah, I'm sure there's a bit of me sort of holding back, but, keep in mind, I'm actively trying to rationalize any kind of jealous or insecure feelings that might be unwarranted. I don't know if this gives enough of a background, but I know this is getting to be long-winded!
So, that first time I felt something not feel right, I just randomly decided to try his email user and pass. Well, it worked. And yes, with heart beating out of my chest and absolute fear and dread and panic engulfing me, I continued to read, re-read, and then re-read some more, all of his emails. To girls (who he was about to meet up with at an upcoming HS reunion), so they were exes, old interests, with him opening up very, very seriously about himself and old feelings and current feelings and missing them and thinking abut them and "butterflies when I saw your email" and "what ifs". One ex had sent him nude pix of herself (these emails had all been current, the pix were recently sent, etc.). The two "serious" girls (who are both married with kids), both obligingly returned the reminiscing and walk down memory lane. ONe lives in another country, telling him "hey it's only x number of hours of flight, let me know when you're nearby", and one lives in his hometown, only a few hours away, where he goes to frequently, without me. And I do understand that reunions tend to do this type of thing to people.
So, I continue to read the emails, frequent exchanges between the hometown girl (who, btw, is VERY unhappily married, lookign to separate) and "keeps thinking about" my BF. Talked about "crossing the line if given a chance" (on her part, he didn't exactly say "no", but he has not discouraged this whole thing). He has encouraged her to send him pictures, they say "love you" to each other, "miss you" "thinking about you"....all the things he says to me.
And it has just gone on and on, all the while, for about 6-7 months now, I have kept up appearances, sort of "forget" about it (maybe deny?) it when we are together and have been able to compartmentalize it and believe hiim when he does tell me that he loves me, misses me. I know this is twisted, but I keep hoping that I will read an email to one of these girls where he actually talks me "up" (he sort of mentions me, but only in passing, and it seems downplayed).
Snooping has led me to look through his phone (texting to hometown girl, who was disappointed I'd be with him at reunion, he replied how he was also bummed that I was going to the reunion)
Snooping has led me to his FB account as well (same pass) and come to find out that he was NOT with his old best friend from home las tnight for dinner (a guy), but that they had met for LUNCH. I know he was at dinner with someone--in his hometown, but it wasn't who he said he was with.
Ok, for the record, one time, last summer, after finding an unfinished letter to "other country girl" with serious confessing of still thinking of her, etc. I confessed to him that I had snooped adn that I was sorry, but WTF is going on? I was ready and prepared taht we would break up bc of my snooping, and bc I obviously couldn't believe what he had told me about not being over exes and out of his past. He didn't even get mad over my snooping, he was just more worried that I was not going to forgive him about the letter. He convinced me, and i chose to believe, that the letter was "unfinished", which it was, and that he was about to tell her all about me and about to propose to me (although, gut tells me and still tells me otherwise, but I've been working on this trust thing....)
In our very first serious talk after we met, talking about exes and all, I asked, what girls he keeps in contact with and who is basically in his life bc I didn't want any surprises. I wanted to just know up front who was in his life, who his close friends are, especially the girls.
Since all this has gone down, I have asked him the saem thing. Granted, once I simply pointed out to him how "weird" it was for him to keep going to lunch with one friend of his (a girl) who kept expecting it to be on him every time (and he would bitch about it, every time she'd contact him, he'd say "looks like amy is hungry again") as a joke. (he would talk about how he hates being "used" and that she was clearly doing so).
So, he took my "weird" comment as being jealous, which I continue to defend that it was NOT out of jealousy, just logic! And that takes us to the "I can't mention any girls to you or you'll get jealous" accusation. And it really, really pisses me off bc I have been working really, really hard to trust and just believe him. I told him I won't be in a relationship where it ultimately means he'll "lie by omission" or just flat out lie to me, as he did about dinner last night.
Bottom line is that, as twisted as it sounds, I think we'd have a really good chance if he just opened up abou who his "friends" are. And since i've learned all this information by being the snoop that I have been, I can't confront him about it or call him out on it. We honestly do get along great otherwise any of this, and I guess it's pretty twisted that I'm still hanging on now that I read this, or continue to keep violating his trust, or whatever it is I'm doing. I am not happy with myself for doing this, but I don't know what to do. I've talked with a friend who just says "well, just stop reading his emails". well, i've tried doing that, but I can't stop now. We do still honestly talk about the future, we've already talked about hristmas 2010.
I just don't know what is going on with hiim, that he could keep encouraging these girls and turn around and make plans with me for the future and keeping me on the line (although, admittedly, engagement has not been brought up again, but moving in together has, he would sell his house, and moving in for us both indicates the next step would be engagement/marriage).
I can't confront him, but I am going absolutely crazy. I cannot stop. Somehow, miraculously, I've been able to accomplish work during the day, and even maintain through the past months. But what do I do with all this information and that he has absolutely NO clue what I have been doing? But I am also discovering that he hasn't been up front with ME and has lied to me about what is going on with him and other women. Is he simply just trying to avoid hurting my feelings? Is he leading them on to avoid hurting their feelings?
Sorry for the dreadfully long post. Here's a quick summary to possibly make it easier for replies!
1. we met, trust was bulding
2. something felt off, i snooped 13 months into relationship; trust stopped building--i confessed, but he pleaded "it's not what you think" ok, start re-building trust
3. although rebuilding has never really taken off, i can't stop reading emails, FB, phone texts bc i keep finding stuff that is not trustworthy=perpetuating
4. we still continue as if nothing is going on (great sex, good times when we are together, fun, talking...)
5. he contines to "withhold" info from me about other girls, regardless of how gently, firm, and unemotionally i've tried to ask him about it and tell him how important it is to me that we find a compromise--i start to feel as if i'm being too needy and jealous, although i'm simply asking for his help
6. i continue to violate and go crazy bc of # 5 and 7
7. he continues to violate (it's "irrelevant"-his words--about if and when he meets up with or communicating with other women)=i'm NOT asking or expecting him to "report" to me, i just want to know what goes on in his everyday life, when it does involve other people (and yes, i am interested when he does meet up with guy friends as well)
8. I wouldn't have a problem with it, i could seriously work with it, and i WOULD be able to stop, but i am feeling stonewalled the couple of times we've discussed it
I need help. I appreciate your time to read this and your replies.
This post was deleted for the following reason: poster's request -- jessamyn -- jessamyn
I think you need more help than a few 'DTMFA' answers here can give you.
You've both in the wrong. You know that. So far though, there's no evidence that he's actually sleeping around. Perhaps he feels stifled by your trust issues (the 'I can't mention another girl around you' hints at that), and flirting with these out of town girls gives him some kind of release- I think it's important that he mentioned you're coming with him to the reunion. If he tries to dissuade you from coming, that would certainly be suspicious. It's still not cool to flirt behind your partner's back, of course, but it's a world away from cheating on you.
Talk to him. Tell him you feel horrible about snooping on him (do you?). Tell him you want to believe that nothing further has happened with these women. Tell him you need him to be honest with you. Ask him if there's anything you're doing that makes him feel he needs to seek out these kind of things. Ask him to help you work through your trust issues. Ask him to be your partner.
Good luck.
posted by twirlypen at 12:16 AM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
You've both in the wrong. You know that. So far though, there's no evidence that he's actually sleeping around. Perhaps he feels stifled by your trust issues (the 'I can't mention another girl around you' hints at that), and flirting with these out of town girls gives him some kind of release- I think it's important that he mentioned you're coming with him to the reunion. If he tries to dissuade you from coming, that would certainly be suspicious. It's still not cool to flirt behind your partner's back, of course, but it's a world away from cheating on you.
Talk to him. Tell him you feel horrible about snooping on him (do you?). Tell him you want to believe that nothing further has happened with these women. Tell him you need him to be honest with you. Ask him if there's anything you're doing that makes him feel he needs to seek out these kind of things. Ask him to help you work through your trust issues. Ask him to be your partner.
Good luck.
posted by twirlypen at 12:16 AM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
You are in denial about your role in this; if he has any respect for himself he will soon break it off with you.
posted by dfriedman at 12:20 AM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by dfriedman at 12:20 AM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
You both need to dump each other already.
Even if you eventually did trust him at one point in your mind, I bet you he never felt trusted. As good as you might have once felt with him, your relationship is toxic. He's keeping things from you (with or without reason) and you're putting on this whole trusting front that is a 100% lie.
So break up. Enjoy being single. You don't have to trust anyone if no one promises anything.
posted by inturnaround at 12:26 AM on January 10, 2010 [8 favorites]
Even if you eventually did trust him at one point in your mind, I bet you he never felt trusted. As good as you might have once felt with him, your relationship is toxic. He's keeping things from you (with or without reason) and you're putting on this whole trusting front that is a 100% lie.
So break up. Enjoy being single. You don't have to trust anyone if no one promises anything.
posted by inturnaround at 12:26 AM on January 10, 2010 [8 favorites]
I don't see anything good coming of this for either of you; he's obviously flirtier/ more affectionate with other women than you're comfortable with, and you're more deeply interested in his private affairs than he's comfortable with. Compromising is going to make you both miserable in the long run.
It sucks that you snooped and that you don't trust this guy, but it sucks that he's OK with getting naked pictures from his exes and not telling you about it, too. Since the suck is mutual and long-lasting, I don't see much point in prolonging it.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 12:35 AM on January 10, 2010 [11 favorites]
It sucks that you snooped and that you don't trust this guy, but it sucks that he's OK with getting naked pictures from his exes and not telling you about it, too. Since the suck is mutual and long-lasting, I don't see much point in prolonging it.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 12:35 AM on January 10, 2010 [11 favorites]
I've had a very good, positive, forward-moving LDR with current BF for 1 year, 9 months now,
...
He has encouraged her to send him pictures, they say "love you" to each other, "miss you" "thinking about you"....all the things he says to me. And it has just gone on and on, all the while, for about 6-7 months now,
Good lord, reading that was like watching a wrestling match between the hemispheres of your brain. Short answer: Neither of you is ready for a relationship - take some time off.
posted by benzenedream at 12:36 AM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
...
He has encouraged her to send him pictures, they say "love you" to each other, "miss you" "thinking about you"....all the things he says to me. And it has just gone on and on, all the while, for about 6-7 months now,
Good lord, reading that was like watching a wrestling match between the hemispheres of your brain. Short answer: Neither of you is ready for a relationship - take some time off.
posted by benzenedream at 12:36 AM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
I'm not making any kind of judgement on you here, but I hope you know that accessing someone's e-mail and/or other electronic accounts without their permission is potentially a federal crime.
That issue aside, this whole thing? It's ruined. There is no fixing this. I'm not saying you are a bad person or anything, but I am saying there is no point in putting more energy into something that has already failed.
posted by Menthol at 12:57 AM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
That issue aside, this whole thing? It's ruined. There is no fixing this. I'm not saying you are a bad person or anything, but I am saying there is no point in putting more energy into something that has already failed.
posted by Menthol at 12:57 AM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Ok never mind him, and never mind your snooping, this relationship isn't making you happy. Feeling uneasy and like you can't 100% trust someone is not a good feeling, and it sounds like your snooping reinforced the feeling that you can't trust him - it hurts but it's time to face up to it and walk - the relationship is broken and can't be fixed. The longer you stay the longer you put off being at peace.
posted by Chrysalis at 1:03 AM on January 10, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by Chrysalis at 1:03 AM on January 10, 2010 [5 favorites]
I hope you know that accessing someone's e-mail and/or other electronic accounts without their permission is potentially a federal crime.
It's a federal crime but generally the FBI won't investigate unless there's a large financial cost to the activities or it's in some other way high profile. If you continued to do it after a break up it could be considered stalking.
I'm not saying it's appropriate behavior, but the feds are not going to come knocking down your door here.
Also, you should probably beak up with him. I'd say the email snooping is probably a bigger deal then sending flirtatious emails.
posted by delmoi at 1:09 AM on January 10, 2010
It's a federal crime but generally the FBI won't investigate unless there's a large financial cost to the activities or it's in some other way high profile. If you continued to do it after a break up it could be considered stalking.
I'm not saying it's appropriate behavior, but the feds are not going to come knocking down your door here.
Also, you should probably beak up with him. I'd say the email snooping is probably a bigger deal then sending flirtatious emails.
posted by delmoi at 1:09 AM on January 10, 2010
Best answer: What fairytale of los angeles said. I'm not trying to be glib, and I had a whole response typed out, but its a good summary and analysis of what's happening here. It sounds like neither of you are in a good place for an exclusive, committed relationship with each other or with anyone else. Enjoy being single, work on your trust issues a bit more on your own, and when you're ready, find someone who does not make you feel like any serious conversation about your relationship is confrontation. While some of your comments/discussions sound jealous and irrational, some of them sound perfectly fine, but he acts like they are not. It's very controlling and unhealthy behavior which creates a toxic relationship for you both.
posted by katemcd at 1:09 AM on January 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by katemcd at 1:09 AM on January 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: A few things:
You sound as if you really want your instincts to be wrong. You are explaining this to us so thoroughly because you want us to see all of the details and still get the idea that this would be a MAJOR heartbreak for you if this relationship does not work out. You have invested so much into this relationship including your own future. And it hurts for you to think that the guy who you have invested so much into has not invested as much into you.
So here is the blunt truth:
He will not change. He is flirty and has had practice balancing his flirtiness with his relationships, which is why he is so good at doing this while in a relationship with you. Guys who are flirty to the degree that he is generally are not "look but don't touch" types. So it has probably gone further than a few emails and texts. And this is how it will be with him in the future. So you can demand that he stop seeing these other women, and he will tell you that he will do it if he senses that you are going to leave him, but it will not. He will become even more savvy at hiding so that you will not be able to find out what he is doing.
That said, I am sorry. You seem like a wonderful person who really wants this guy to be the right one. And some women may be able to live with the scenario that I have mentioned to you. But you are not one of those women. You have a delicate heart.
I am sorry. I know this hurts. But really, haven't you been hurting all along. Think about it. You have probably had no peace in your life because of your lack of trust (for good reason). You have lost sleep. Your other relationships have probably suffered a bit. You probably feel anxious. This relationship has made you unhappy with who you have become. A good relationship for you would be a guy who makes you the best possible version of yourself that you can be.
So now the options:
Come clean and then break up with him. Make sure that you intend this to be final if you go this route. Anything other than final will result in your arrival back at this same spot soon. However, next time he will change his passwords and be way more careful.
Or you can just accept that this is the way he is knowing that as sincere as he may sound in his explanation or even apologies, he will not change.
Sounds like no choice at all. Best of luck and I really am sorry that you are feeling so conflicted. I hope you find some real peace in your life. Take care.
posted by boots77 at 1:43 AM on January 10, 2010 [18 favorites]
You sound as if you really want your instincts to be wrong. You are explaining this to us so thoroughly because you want us to see all of the details and still get the idea that this would be a MAJOR heartbreak for you if this relationship does not work out. You have invested so much into this relationship including your own future. And it hurts for you to think that the guy who you have invested so much into has not invested as much into you.
So here is the blunt truth:
He will not change. He is flirty and has had practice balancing his flirtiness with his relationships, which is why he is so good at doing this while in a relationship with you. Guys who are flirty to the degree that he is generally are not "look but don't touch" types. So it has probably gone further than a few emails and texts. And this is how it will be with him in the future. So you can demand that he stop seeing these other women, and he will tell you that he will do it if he senses that you are going to leave him, but it will not. He will become even more savvy at hiding so that you will not be able to find out what he is doing.
That said, I am sorry. You seem like a wonderful person who really wants this guy to be the right one. And some women may be able to live with the scenario that I have mentioned to you. But you are not one of those women. You have a delicate heart.
I am sorry. I know this hurts. But really, haven't you been hurting all along. Think about it. You have probably had no peace in your life because of your lack of trust (for good reason). You have lost sleep. Your other relationships have probably suffered a bit. You probably feel anxious. This relationship has made you unhappy with who you have become. A good relationship for you would be a guy who makes you the best possible version of yourself that you can be.
So now the options:
Come clean and then break up with him. Make sure that you intend this to be final if you go this route. Anything other than final will result in your arrival back at this same spot soon. However, next time he will change his passwords and be way more careful.
Or you can just accept that this is the way he is knowing that as sincere as he may sound in his explanation or even apologies, he will not change.
Sounds like no choice at all. Best of luck and I really am sorry that you are feeling so conflicted. I hope you find some real peace in your life. Take care.
posted by boots77 at 1:43 AM on January 10, 2010 [18 favorites]
Trust isn't something you have. It's something you do. You can either make a committed choice to trust this person, or you can keep snooping on his emails. It's your call.
If he sleeps with somebody else without your blessing, he has chosen to stuff up your relationship.
If you keep snooping on his emails, you have chosen to stuff up your relationship.
None of this has anything to do with talking things through. All of it has to do with personal choices to do or not do certain things.
You won't resolve this situation by talking things out. You might resolve it by starting, right now, to extend the courtesy of trust that's properly due to a significant other, and then shutting the hell up about how he chooses to relate to his friends.
You also won't help matters any by beating yourself up about what a terrible person you are for snooping. You've done something strategically unsound, not something that merits wailing and rending of garments and hurling yourself to the floor and begging forgiveness. The only person your snooping hurts is you. Try to take yourself a little less seriously.
posted by flabdablet at 1:55 AM on January 10, 2010 [5 favorites]
If he sleeps with somebody else without your blessing, he has chosen to stuff up your relationship.
If you keep snooping on his emails, you have chosen to stuff up your relationship.
None of this has anything to do with talking things through. All of it has to do with personal choices to do or not do certain things.
You won't resolve this situation by talking things out. You might resolve it by starting, right now, to extend the courtesy of trust that's properly due to a significant other, and then shutting the hell up about how he chooses to relate to his friends.
You also won't help matters any by beating yourself up about what a terrible person you are for snooping. You've done something strategically unsound, not something that merits wailing and rending of garments and hurling yourself to the floor and begging forgiveness. The only person your snooping hurts is you. Try to take yourself a little less seriously.
posted by flabdablet at 1:55 AM on January 10, 2010 [5 favorites]
Oh yeah, one more thing. Having been betrayed by persons A, B, C, D, E, F and G is a totally unsound reason for refusing to extend trust to significant other H. Being betrayed doesn't hurt anywhere near as much or for as long as wrecking your own best chance of a good relationship.
Extending trust until you know for sure it's not merited is the strategically sound option. Extending trust is never safe, and attempting to live as if it is safe (by waiting until you feel safe before doing it) will just keep bringing your relationships undone.
posted by flabdablet at 2:03 AM on January 10, 2010 [5 favorites]
Extending trust until you know for sure it's not merited is the strategically sound option. Extending trust is never safe, and attempting to live as if it is safe (by waiting until you feel safe before doing it) will just keep bringing your relationships undone.
posted by flabdablet at 2:03 AM on January 10, 2010 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Holy Jesus Mary mother of God St. Christopher St Symeon the New Theologian and all the Fathers and Mothers CHRIST that question was long.
Whoosh.
Here are some priorities for you, in order of importance:
(1) Stop feeling ashamed of yourself. The cycle you're describing above - where you feel terrible about having snooped, then freak out because you can never tell him about it because he'd hate you, and then you go and snoop again? - that is a cycle of shame, classically defined and portrayed. You need to break that cycle of shame. The ways to do this depend largely on the situation. For one thing, in your case, I think you need to calm down. Snooping is bad, yes, we all know that trust is a healthy thing and it's bad not to have that trust... but everyone has issues they're working through, right? This is just yours, your lot in the world to be dealt with. Honestly, I think you have more of a problem with feeling ashamed about your trust issues than you do with the trust issues themselves; people who have classic trust issues are people who are always sniping at their partner and acting jealous, but you don't do that. Your trust issues are centered around whether you trust yourself. To put it bluntly, you don't. So, first step: lighten up, and go easy on yourself. Remember this: guilt can be healthy, but shame is poison; whereas guilt says "I did something wrong; I'm going to fix it," shame says "I did something wrong; no one can ever find out." Stay conscious of that shame cycle, and try to stay out of it.
(2) Separate his problem from yours. You're falling into a classic trap here, just so you know. Partners who snoop around and catch their partner cheating or thinking about cheating nearly always react this way: "oh my god, what an awful person I am for snooping around and discovering this!" Well, he's being dishonest. It doesn't matter one lick on a cat's ass in hell what you did on your end of the equation; this pseudo-dating-other-people-behind-your-back thing he's doing is wrong. It's scary for you to contemplate, so you immediate turn it back around and try to make it your fault, because that way it's easier for you; but it's not. You need to have confidence in that. So you're scared to death about what you could ever say to him to let him know you found out; but really, it's simple. If you were going to try to make this thing work, you'd just say: "look, I know I did a bad thing, and we can and will talk about this and deal with it later, but I was snooping and I found out you've been seeing women behind my back; now, I need to know: do you want to make this work?" The snooping thing - that can be dealt with, but you have to separate his problem, which frankly is much more serious than yours, because it really runs to the foundations of the relationship, and therefore must be dealt with first.
(3) Okay, I think we all understand that this relationship is effectively over. And thankfully this should be a relatively simple breakup for you to effectively accomplish; with these facts in hand, tell him that neither of you are really in this. That's clear, right? I know it won't be easy, but at least your work's cut out for you - you know exactly what to do.
Really, the biggest thing you need to do is stop beating yourself up about this. The shame is really the background on the trust issue you're talking about. Work on removing the whole cycle of shame, and the trust difficulties will slowly work themselves out.
posted by koeselitz at 2:12 AM on January 10, 2010 [34 favorites]
Whoosh.
Here are some priorities for you, in order of importance:
(1) Stop feeling ashamed of yourself. The cycle you're describing above - where you feel terrible about having snooped, then freak out because you can never tell him about it because he'd hate you, and then you go and snoop again? - that is a cycle of shame, classically defined and portrayed. You need to break that cycle of shame. The ways to do this depend largely on the situation. For one thing, in your case, I think you need to calm down. Snooping is bad, yes, we all know that trust is a healthy thing and it's bad not to have that trust... but everyone has issues they're working through, right? This is just yours, your lot in the world to be dealt with. Honestly, I think you have more of a problem with feeling ashamed about your trust issues than you do with the trust issues themselves; people who have classic trust issues are people who are always sniping at their partner and acting jealous, but you don't do that. Your trust issues are centered around whether you trust yourself. To put it bluntly, you don't. So, first step: lighten up, and go easy on yourself. Remember this: guilt can be healthy, but shame is poison; whereas guilt says "I did something wrong; I'm going to fix it," shame says "I did something wrong; no one can ever find out." Stay conscious of that shame cycle, and try to stay out of it.
(2) Separate his problem from yours. You're falling into a classic trap here, just so you know. Partners who snoop around and catch their partner cheating or thinking about cheating nearly always react this way: "oh my god, what an awful person I am for snooping around and discovering this!" Well, he's being dishonest. It doesn't matter one lick on a cat's ass in hell what you did on your end of the equation; this pseudo-dating-other-people-behind-your-back thing he's doing is wrong. It's scary for you to contemplate, so you immediate turn it back around and try to make it your fault, because that way it's easier for you; but it's not. You need to have confidence in that. So you're scared to death about what you could ever say to him to let him know you found out; but really, it's simple. If you were going to try to make this thing work, you'd just say: "look, I know I did a bad thing, and we can and will talk about this and deal with it later, but I was snooping and I found out you've been seeing women behind my back; now, I need to know: do you want to make this work?" The snooping thing - that can be dealt with, but you have to separate his problem, which frankly is much more serious than yours, because it really runs to the foundations of the relationship, and therefore must be dealt with first.
(3) Okay, I think we all understand that this relationship is effectively over. And thankfully this should be a relatively simple breakup for you to effectively accomplish; with these facts in hand, tell him that neither of you are really in this. That's clear, right? I know it won't be easy, but at least your work's cut out for you - you know exactly what to do.
Really, the biggest thing you need to do is stop beating yourself up about this. The shame is really the background on the trust issue you're talking about. Work on removing the whole cycle of shame, and the trust difficulties will slowly work themselves out.
posted by koeselitz at 2:12 AM on January 10, 2010 [34 favorites]
Oh - and get some sleep when you can; you deserve some rest after all these exhausting emotions. Everything will still be there when you wake up.
posted by koeselitz at 2:18 AM on January 10, 2010
posted by koeselitz at 2:18 AM on January 10, 2010
Best answer: I think the original snooping was a bad idea and a violation of trust. That said, the snooping AFTER you found incriminating (yes, the boyfriend committed relationship crimes, IMO) emails and texts is understandable under the circumstances. From your post, it seems that you are loathe to trust your own instincts, or gut so to speak. You are therefore more likely to seek outside "evidence" of what you already know deep down--that your boyfriend is flirtatious (at best) and not worthy of your affection---and WHALAH! the snooping for outside evidence continues.
The snooping is just a symptom of your inability to trust your instincts and get out of this relationship based on your own gut feeling that something isn't right--despite what he tells you. Seems to me that your gut was right in this case--naked pictures of other women and saying he wishes you weren't going to the reunion with him???? ICK! I wouldn't trust this guy with my heart either.
It seems like you now know this (since you marked as favorites answers that tell you to break up with this guy). But don't lose the lesson...which is to learn to trust your instincts and to stop seeking the answers from outside of yourself. It's a tough thing to do --especially when your gut is saying something you don't want to hear. But I have learned the hard way that ignoring my gut instincts is detrimental every single time.
posted by murrey at 5:50 AM on January 10, 2010 [7 favorites]
The snooping is just a symptom of your inability to trust your instincts and get out of this relationship based on your own gut feeling that something isn't right--despite what he tells you. Seems to me that your gut was right in this case--naked pictures of other women and saying he wishes you weren't going to the reunion with him???? ICK! I wouldn't trust this guy with my heart either.
It seems like you now know this (since you marked as favorites answers that tell you to break up with this guy). But don't lose the lesson...which is to learn to trust your instincts and to stop seeking the answers from outside of yourself. It's a tough thing to do --especially when your gut is saying something you don't want to hear. But I have learned the hard way that ignoring my gut instincts is detrimental every single time.
posted by murrey at 5:50 AM on January 10, 2010 [7 favorites]
You need to break up with this guy, not because he's lying to you, but in the interest of your own self respect and preservation. As mentioned upthread by koeselitz, leaving this person will begin the process of breaking this specific cycle of shame. Because, breaking up with him will mean that you will have less compelling reasons to continue to breaking into his account.
That is what is hurting you right now: not this guy, not the realtionship, not what he's doing or not doing - but breaking into his email account.
Because there seems to be a definite payoff for your snooping. One that might be hard for you not to "fall" back into in the future with someone else. It was your description of your heart pounding, etc when going into his email account that sounded a little bit like the covertness thrilled you in some an awful way (yes, people addictively punish themselves in all kinds of terrible ways). Particularily since the risk and secrecy involved make your snooping both "bad" and "dangerous". You get the information you want (in this case confirmation that people can't be trusted), stay with him anyway - all in order to go back for (what is now) your ready made fix (of continously breaking into his account).
He even plays into this like an enabler - when you inform him that you have pried into his email, what does he do? Nothing. He doesn't even get upset.
Everyone wins.
The way I read this, you are hurting yourself. That's what has to stop. If you were thinking more clearly, you would have broken up with him long ago (knowing what you know).
Get some help. Don't let this become who you are.
posted by marimeko at 6:35 AM on January 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
That is what is hurting you right now: not this guy, not the realtionship, not what he's doing or not doing - but breaking into his email account.
Because there seems to be a definite payoff for your snooping. One that might be hard for you not to "fall" back into in the future with someone else. It was your description of your heart pounding, etc when going into his email account that sounded a little bit like the covertness thrilled you in some an awful way (yes, people addictively punish themselves in all kinds of terrible ways). Particularily since the risk and secrecy involved make your snooping both "bad" and "dangerous". You get the information you want (in this case confirmation that people can't be trusted), stay with him anyway - all in order to go back for (what is now) your ready made fix (of continously breaking into his account).
He even plays into this like an enabler - when you inform him that you have pried into his email, what does he do? Nothing. He doesn't even get upset.
Everyone wins.
The way I read this, you are hurting yourself. That's what has to stop. If you were thinking more clearly, you would have broken up with him long ago (knowing what you know).
Get some help. Don't let this become who you are.
posted by marimeko at 6:35 AM on January 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
You might be interested in my past questions
http://ask.metafilter.com/77637/Sexy-ex-sabotage
http://ask.metafilter.com/80889/Nipping-crazy-in-the-bud
I had trust issues, I snooped, it was bad. I decided to go into therapy for my trust issues and also to deal with the shame and guilt cycle I had gotten myself into. I kept thinking I was the jealous snoop and if I only didn't pry things would have been fine (NOT TRUE). It was pretty miserable, but I emerged from the wreakage and haven't snooped on any unfortunate man since.
When I start dating someone I now try to have a conversation about exes, but really, I feel like it's more about trusting your instincts. The guy in question here would also go to lunch and be very vague about it too. I might have been a creep, but he was a creep and didn't even realize it. I should have known that because my own father has similar relationships with his exes....they worship him and write longing messages on his facebook wall. He probably doesn't do anything with them because they are married and whatnot, but it's a behavior I think is a dealbreaker and it's good to be able to ID it now.
I've since moved on and so far haven't had the misfortune to date anymore creeps. I was really head over heels with the creep, but I'm so glad I moved on.
posted by idle at 7:00 AM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
http://ask.metafilter.com/77637/Sexy-ex-sabotage
http://ask.metafilter.com/80889/Nipping-crazy-in-the-bud
I had trust issues, I snooped, it was bad. I decided to go into therapy for my trust issues and also to deal with the shame and guilt cycle I had gotten myself into. I kept thinking I was the jealous snoop and if I only didn't pry things would have been fine (NOT TRUE). It was pretty miserable, but I emerged from the wreakage and haven't snooped on any unfortunate man since.
When I start dating someone I now try to have a conversation about exes, but really, I feel like it's more about trusting your instincts. The guy in question here would also go to lunch and be very vague about it too. I might have been a creep, but he was a creep and didn't even realize it. I should have known that because my own father has similar relationships with his exes....they worship him and write longing messages on his facebook wall. He probably doesn't do anything with them because they are married and whatnot, but it's a behavior I think is a dealbreaker and it's good to be able to ID it now.
I've since moved on and so far haven't had the misfortune to date anymore creeps. I was really head over heels with the creep, but I'm so glad I moved on.
posted by idle at 7:00 AM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Adding: I'm sure what he's doing does hurt - what I meant is that the things you can contol are your responsibility. Self betrayal or punishing yourself in some way is something you can avoid and work on (control).
posted by marimeko at 7:11 AM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by marimeko at 7:11 AM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The length of an AskMe question is inversely proportional to the obviousness of the answer the asker wants to avoid. One feels that if only they knew ALL the details, it wouldn't be the answer they've been avoiding.
You are hurting. His apparent need to reassure himself with e-mails and lunches with hangers-on is the cause of that hurt. DTMFA.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:16 AM on January 10, 2010 [11 favorites]
You are hurting. His apparent need to reassure himself with e-mails and lunches with hangers-on is the cause of that hurt. DTMFA.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:16 AM on January 10, 2010 [11 favorites]
Best answer: Yes, your post was long, but I'm impressed by your self-awareness and your non-defensive and even grateful replies to some pretty tough answers in this thread. You're on the right track. You need to find someone who values you so much that he's willing to go out of his way to make sure you're comfortable in the relationship, given the trust problems you've unfortunately (but legitimately) acquired. This guy doesn't seem to be the one.
(Also, since you seem to be second-guessing yourself to a crazy degree--everyone needs and is entitled to a private life, yes. You need to figure out how to give your SO such a thing, in the future--a different SO from your current one. Nude photos from an ex crosses a line into territory most people would consider not-okay.)
posted by torticat at 8:43 AM on January 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
(Also, since you seem to be second-guessing yourself to a crazy degree--everyone needs and is entitled to a private life, yes. You need to figure out how to give your SO such a thing, in the future--a different SO from your current one. Nude photos from an ex crosses a line into territory most people would consider not-okay.)
posted by torticat at 8:43 AM on January 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Am I reading it correctly..that he lives some distance from you? Long distance is often a problem even under the best of circumstances. I understand that you want to be able to trust someone and that is your aim...but you have a considerable obstacle with the distance issue.
Men are men and studies show that they think about sex a lot (like once a minute) and women think of sex much less often. The reality is your 39 year old red blooded guy is hours away from you and talks of marriage have cooled. The handwriting is on the wall and to use a much overworked and hackneyed phrase: he is just not that into you.
It is bad that you have snooped...but now that you have you have your answers...don't try to reinvent what you have discovered to make it fit what you want it to fit. You are trying to push a square peg into a round hole. Break up and find a man in your own vicinity .
posted by naplesyellow at 8:54 AM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Men are men and studies show that they think about sex a lot (like once a minute) and women think of sex much less often. The reality is your 39 year old red blooded guy is hours away from you and talks of marriage have cooled. The handwriting is on the wall and to use a much overworked and hackneyed phrase: he is just not that into you.
It is bad that you have snooped...but now that you have you have your answers...don't try to reinvent what you have discovered to make it fit what you want it to fit. You are trying to push a square peg into a round hole. Break up and find a man in your own vicinity .
posted by naplesyellow at 8:54 AM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
We MeFites tend, generally, to jump on the snooper in these sorts of situations. But honestly, he was ready to marry you at five months, and when you pulled away and said, "Wait a minute! I don't even know you! Tell me about yourself!" he freaked out and got all sorts of defensive and tried to make you feel bad about what was really, at that point, only natural curiosity.
I'm not defending your snooping. That was wrong, and you need to find ways to stop it. But his reaction to wanting to, you know, actually get to know him better, combined with the information that you found when you did snoop--that he's flirting with several girls, including exchanging nudie pix, talking about feeling twitterpated by them, telling them he's disappointed he has to take you to his reunion, all scream "player" to me. You need to drop this guy like a steaming turd, seriously.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:57 AM on January 10, 2010 [4 favorites]
I'm not defending your snooping. That was wrong, and you need to find ways to stop it. But his reaction to wanting to, you know, actually get to know him better, combined with the information that you found when you did snoop--that he's flirting with several girls, including exchanging nudie pix, talking about feeling twitterpated by them, telling them he's disappointed he has to take you to his reunion, all scream "player" to me. You need to drop this guy like a steaming turd, seriously.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:57 AM on January 10, 2010 [4 favorites]
Best answer: This is such a universal situation that it has been explored in a wide range of fables, many of which have been assembled (and altered) in The Bloody Chamber, by Angela Carter.
The story goes like this: Girl falls in love with mysterious boy. Boy gives girl an ostensibly great but something-isn't-right life, and asks her to promise never to enter a certain room. Girl enters the room and finds a dark secret, usually related to boy's past loves. Boy catches girl and "punishes" her, or maybe she escapes.
Sometimes boy believes that he is punishing girl for lack of trust, and sometimes he knows he's just trying to cover up his own crimes. Sometimes boy always meant for girl to find the bloody chamber, but would never admit that to himself. And sometimes, boy consciously meant for girl to find it, and will play the game again with the next one.
Don't get me wrong. If you were my girlfriend, I wouldn't want you reading my email either.
And yet, I have never read a version of The Bloody Chamber, shrugged, and thought: "Bitch shouldn't have entered that room, I guess."
posted by bingo at 9:06 AM on January 10, 2010 [20 favorites]
The story goes like this: Girl falls in love with mysterious boy. Boy gives girl an ostensibly great but something-isn't-right life, and asks her to promise never to enter a certain room. Girl enters the room and finds a dark secret, usually related to boy's past loves. Boy catches girl and "punishes" her, or maybe she escapes.
Sometimes boy believes that he is punishing girl for lack of trust, and sometimes he knows he's just trying to cover up his own crimes. Sometimes boy always meant for girl to find the bloody chamber, but would never admit that to himself. And sometimes, boy consciously meant for girl to find it, and will play the game again with the next one.
Don't get me wrong. If you were my girlfriend, I wouldn't want you reading my email either.
And yet, I have never read a version of The Bloody Chamber, shrugged, and thought: "Bitch shouldn't have entered that room, I guess."
posted by bingo at 9:06 AM on January 10, 2010 [20 favorites]
The longterm outlook for this relationship is nit good, at all. Allow it to end as gracefully as possible. It will hurt now, or later.
posted by theora55 at 9:11 AM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 9:11 AM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: He sounds like a person who needs to constantly create intense interactions with females (which are often unstable interactions -- there's no way for him to hold up the intensity with everyone). And/or has few boundaries with women. I don't really have patience for this, myself. And I don't think he could be a good mate for you, a person working on trust issues.
As others have said, enjoy being single for a while, for as long as you want. Try to let go, let the future unfold, have trust that following your own path and leaving behind that which is crazy-making will lead you into a better future (including better potential mates, if that's what you want).
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 10:08 AM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
As others have said, enjoy being single for a while, for as long as you want. Try to let go, let the future unfold, have trust that following your own path and leaving behind that which is crazy-making will lead you into a better future (including better potential mates, if that's what you want).
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 10:08 AM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
He's sending romantic emails to OTHER WOMEN and receiving them in return. Plus naked pictures! To me, that is "cheating." I don't know why you'd let this drag on for months and months without saying shit to him about it. Just get out. Tell him you felt something was up and looked at his emails, and that it's over. (You're going to sound like you have no respect for yourself if you mention the fact that you've had access to this information for months and never did anything, so don't.)
posted by autoclavicle at 10:12 AM on January 10, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by autoclavicle at 10:12 AM on January 10, 2010 [7 favorites]
He's a putz. I'm sure he has many good qualities, or else you wouldn't be dating him.
However, I've been there, done that. Any time you feel you have to check up on a man, he's not worth your time. Vice versa if you are a guy reading this.
Your tone suggests that "if only..." and there is no "if." It is what it is. His level of interaction with other women is not acceptable to you. He's a liar and possibly a cheat, at best he is sneaky. Naked pictures? No. Not unless you are into that lifestyle and he tells you about it, and it sounds like you're not, and it sounds like he hides it from you. A leopard can't change its spots.
Don't demean or question yourself any further by grasping at straws or confronting him with what you know. Just let him go, go off to all those other women, and let go of the thought that without him, you'd be lonely, you couldn't find another guy like him, whatever it is that you're worrying about. There truly are a lot of fish in the sea. Look in the mirror and say, "he doesn't deserve the pleasure of my company." Because he doesn't. Snoop nothing, if someone is lying to me and carrying on behind my back, I want to know so that I won't waste my time with him anymore.
For the record, I don't ever feel the need to do that w/my current partner. He shows me his email screen on a regular basis and I never check his email because he tells me everything. He can see mine over my shoulder. Never flirts with other women, doesn't even glance at them, we talk about our favorite hot movie stars, but only in a distant, yeah, they are good looking and great actors sort of way.
Do you really want to go through your entire life in misery and doubt with a man? I don't. Move on, and open yourself up to real love from a real man, not some sneaky dog.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 11:37 AM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
However, I've been there, done that. Any time you feel you have to check up on a man, he's not worth your time. Vice versa if you are a guy reading this.
Your tone suggests that "if only..." and there is no "if." It is what it is. His level of interaction with other women is not acceptable to you. He's a liar and possibly a cheat, at best he is sneaky. Naked pictures? No. Not unless you are into that lifestyle and he tells you about it, and it sounds like you're not, and it sounds like he hides it from you. A leopard can't change its spots.
Don't demean or question yourself any further by grasping at straws or confronting him with what you know. Just let him go, go off to all those other women, and let go of the thought that without him, you'd be lonely, you couldn't find another guy like him, whatever it is that you're worrying about. There truly are a lot of fish in the sea. Look in the mirror and say, "he doesn't deserve the pleasure of my company." Because he doesn't. Snoop nothing, if someone is lying to me and carrying on behind my back, I want to know so that I won't waste my time with him anymore.
For the record, I don't ever feel the need to do that w/my current partner. He shows me his email screen on a regular basis and I never check his email because he tells me everything. He can see mine over my shoulder. Never flirts with other women, doesn't even glance at them, we talk about our favorite hot movie stars, but only in a distant, yeah, they are good looking and great actors sort of way.
Do you really want to go through your entire life in misery and doubt with a man? I don't. Move on, and open yourself up to real love from a real man, not some sneaky dog.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 11:37 AM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
A leopard can't change its spots.
Hah, thanks for that Oprah. You know, if he hasn't actually cheated and OP really isn't just using Ask as a boost to help her work up the confidence to break up with this guy, maybe she really does want to make it work. And salacious emails just might not be a barrier to happily sharing a future life together if she confronts him, asks him to stop and explains why she's uncomfortable with his shitty bahaviour and he shows genuine remorse and a desire to improve himself for the sake of the relationship.
Lots of couples survive actual infidelity, so there may still be a future here if the couple in question stops the sneaking around on each other, a mutual problem and one that can be resolved if it's confronted.
One thing I think I can say is if the two just break up now, they'll both have very hard times being happy in future relationships if they act the way they are doing now.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:41 PM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
Hah, thanks for that Oprah. You know, if he hasn't actually cheated and OP really isn't just using Ask as a boost to help her work up the confidence to break up with this guy, maybe she really does want to make it work. And salacious emails just might not be a barrier to happily sharing a future life together if she confronts him, asks him to stop and explains why she's uncomfortable with his shitty bahaviour and he shows genuine remorse and a desire to improve himself for the sake of the relationship.
Lots of couples survive actual infidelity, so there may still be a future here if the couple in question stops the sneaking around on each other, a mutual problem and one that can be resolved if it's confronted.
One thing I think I can say is if the two just break up now, they'll both have very hard times being happy in future relationships if they act the way they are doing now.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:41 PM on January 10, 2010 [3 favorites]
Give yourself a break. Your suspicions gave you grounds for a warrant; the search produced irrefutable evidence. You know what to do.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 12:53 PM on January 10, 2010
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 12:53 PM on January 10, 2010
Don't beat yourself up for snooping so much and not trusting. You shoudn't have trusted this guy, and how are you going to know that for sure? I hate to beat up on someone who clearly felt like Something Is Wrong Here, because I think it's stupid to tell her to ignore it and trust the guy by default, ignoring her instincts. And you DID trust him, up until he started acting shifty and giving you a reason not to.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:17 PM on January 10, 2010
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:17 PM on January 10, 2010
My heart goes out to you; I've been there, it sucks. I, as MeFites like to say, DTMFA'ed, but am still dealing with the fallout.
The thread I've been re-visiting to help me deal with it is this one:
http://ask.metafilter.com/139602/Can-I-learn-to-trust-him-Is-there-any-way-to-just-kick-him-to-the-curb
There might be some advice in there that will resonate with you, and help you feel stronger. It's helped with me. Good luck, dear.
posted by polyester.lumberjack at 2:30 PM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
The thread I've been re-visiting to help me deal with it is this one:
http://ask.metafilter.com/139602/Can-I-learn-to-trust-him-Is-there-any-way-to-just-kick-him-to-the-curb
There might be some advice in there that will resonate with you, and help you feel stronger. It's helped with me. Good luck, dear.
posted by polyester.lumberjack at 2:30 PM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I hate that MeFites ALWAYS jump on the snooper!!
(That said, koeselitz' Cycle Of Shame comment is worth some introspection on your part.)
---------------
Via murrey:
"From your post, it seems that you are loathe to trust your own instincts, or gut so to speak. You are therefore more likely to seek outside "evidence" of what you already know deep down--that your boyfriend is flirtatious (at best) and not worthy of your affection---and WHALAH! the snooping for outside evidence continues.
The snooping is just a symptom of your inability to trust your instincts and get out of this relationship based on your own gut feeling that something isn't right--despite what he tells you. Seems to me that your gut was right in this case--naked pictures of other women and saying he wishes you weren't going to the reunion with him???? ICK! I wouldn't trust this guy with my heart either. " (emphasis, mine.)
Exactly!
I'm pretty sure folks who don't snoop don't need to because, through life's experiences, they've learned to trust their instincts implicitly and act accordingly before disaster happens.
foxhat10 - I think you might be approaching your snooping habit (addiction in this case?) and trust issues from the wrong perspective. This next comment is nuanced, so try to stay with me....
Most of the time most folks will give you widgey feelings because most of the time most folks don't necessarily mean what they say. It sounds like you've been "working on trust issues" in such a way that you are seeking to over-ride your gut instincts. NO! No! No. What you should seek to do is interpret your gut instincts correctly.
You are right in one respect, your early years skewed your radar a bit. I'm imagining scenarios where people are distracted or preoccupied... and you jump to conclusions like, "they hate me!" or "he's cheating on me!" (which in this case he was, but still...) I'm talking about getting your filters back into balance. I'm sensing you are trying to do away with your filters altogether. Do you see the difference?
I hope you do and that my comments in this regard were helpful.
----------
As to my original premise...
If someone is fully fucking lying to you, and they are smooth at it... How else do you catch a liar but by research, fact checking, a/k/a - snooping??
Sure, experienced folks DTMFA without proof. Their gut is enough, no need to look further. But if you are being conned, and you need proof, and the only way to confirm your suspicions is to snoop (because hello - lies are designed to fool you!) then - FuckIt. Good. Snoop. Good For you. Good.
My caveat? Once suspicions are confirmed, Snooper must act and DTMFA = Honorable Snoop.
Staying with the liar after confirming suspicions = Dirty Snoop.
I hope that makes it all clear.
posted by jbenben at 3:35 PM on January 10, 2010 [9 favorites]
(That said, koeselitz' Cycle Of Shame comment is worth some introspection on your part.)
---------------
Via murrey:
"From your post, it seems that you are loathe to trust your own instincts, or gut so to speak. You are therefore more likely to seek outside "evidence" of what you already know deep down--that your boyfriend is flirtatious (at best) and not worthy of your affection---and WHALAH! the snooping for outside evidence continues.
The snooping is just a symptom of your inability to trust your instincts and get out of this relationship based on your own gut feeling that something isn't right--despite what he tells you. Seems to me that your gut was right in this case--naked pictures of other women and saying he wishes you weren't going to the reunion with him???? ICK! I wouldn't trust this guy with my heart either. " (emphasis, mine.)
Exactly!
I'm pretty sure folks who don't snoop don't need to because, through life's experiences, they've learned to trust their instincts implicitly and act accordingly before disaster happens.
foxhat10 - I think you might be approaching your snooping habit (addiction in this case?) and trust issues from the wrong perspective. This next comment is nuanced, so try to stay with me....
Most of the time most folks will give you widgey feelings because most of the time most folks don't necessarily mean what they say. It sounds like you've been "working on trust issues" in such a way that you are seeking to over-ride your gut instincts. NO! No! No. What you should seek to do is interpret your gut instincts correctly.
You are right in one respect, your early years skewed your radar a bit. I'm imagining scenarios where people are distracted or preoccupied... and you jump to conclusions like, "they hate me!" or "he's cheating on me!" (which in this case he was, but still...) I'm talking about getting your filters back into balance. I'm sensing you are trying to do away with your filters altogether. Do you see the difference?
I hope you do and that my comments in this regard were helpful.
----------
As to my original premise...
If someone is fully fucking lying to you, and they are smooth at it... How else do you catch a liar but by research, fact checking, a/k/a - snooping??
Sure, experienced folks DTMFA without proof. Their gut is enough, no need to look further. But if you are being conned, and you need proof, and the only way to confirm your suspicions is to snoop (because hello - lies are designed to fool you!) then - FuckIt. Good. Snoop. Good For you. Good.
My caveat? Once suspicions are confirmed, Snooper must act and DTMFA = Honorable Snoop.
Staying with the liar after confirming suspicions = Dirty Snoop.
I hope that makes it all clear.
posted by jbenben at 3:35 PM on January 10, 2010 [9 favorites]
OTHER WOMEN ARE SENDING HIM NAKED PICTURES AND HE IS HOLDING ON TO THOSE PICTURES.
I'm sorry, foxhat10, but this relationship is not good for you. Time to end it.
posted by medusa at 5:05 PM on January 10, 2010
I'm sorry, foxhat10, but this relationship is not good for you. Time to end it.
posted by medusa at 5:05 PM on January 10, 2010
His responses always included "i can't mention any other girls name around you or to you or anything without you getting defensive or bent out of shape, i've learned --from me and his other exes apparently--that when it comes ot other women, to just not say anythign at all, in any way, shape or form"
This is a huge red flag of control and manipulation for me. If he can't take your feelings seriously enough to address them with any kind of respect-- especially if you have been working hard to give him the benefit of the doubt-- then he's shutting you down through manipulating your guilt and shame and insecurity.
I've never been in a relationship where, when I've intuited that something like this was going on, I was wrong. Trust your own feelings, and find somebody who respects them (I know easier said than done, but this guy is not that person).
posted by jokeefe at 5:54 PM on January 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is a huge red flag of control and manipulation for me. If he can't take your feelings seriously enough to address them with any kind of respect-- especially if you have been working hard to give him the benefit of the doubt-- then he's shutting you down through manipulating your guilt and shame and insecurity.
I've never been in a relationship where, when I've intuited that something like this was going on, I was wrong. Trust your own feelings, and find somebody who respects them (I know easier said than done, but this guy is not that person).
posted by jokeefe at 5:54 PM on January 10, 2010 [2 favorites]
Ask yourself this question: Do you believe he is cheating on you?
If the answer is yes, dump him.
Yes, you have issues. Trust issues and trustworthiness issues (sorry, but you are snooping and you know you're wrong to do so). You need to work on those issues, of course. I also suspect there's a reason you're still with this guy. Maybe you don't think you deserve better? Maybe you're afraid you can't find better? Maybe you have some weird need to be hurt by others? I've known women who date bad guys because they have no idea what a good relationship is like. We all have strange reasons for the things we do, and sometimes we don't even realize what they are.
My advice in brief:
- Dump the liar.
- Figure out if dating cheaters and liars is a pattern.
Best of luck to you!
posted by 2oh1 at 7:46 PM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
If the answer is yes, dump him.
Yes, you have issues. Trust issues and trustworthiness issues (sorry, but you are snooping and you know you're wrong to do so). You need to work on those issues, of course. I also suspect there's a reason you're still with this guy. Maybe you don't think you deserve better? Maybe you're afraid you can't find better? Maybe you have some weird need to be hurt by others? I've known women who date bad guys because they have no idea what a good relationship is like. We all have strange reasons for the things we do, and sometimes we don't even realize what they are.
My advice in brief:
- Dump the liar.
- Figure out if dating cheaters and liars is a pattern.
Best of luck to you!
posted by 2oh1 at 7:46 PM on January 10, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm not against your snooping. I feel like it would have been wrong if you'd found out that he had been telling the truth and not doing anything wrong. Now you know what you need to know to get out. This guy does not deserve to be trusted.
posted by anniecat at 7:23 AM on January 11, 2010
posted by anniecat at 7:23 AM on January 11, 2010
He's a dog. You caught him.
Print off the emails, hand them to him, tell him it's over, block him from ever contacting you and then never speak to him or contact him ever again.
posted by stealabove at 1:09 PM on February 24, 2010
Print off the emails, hand them to him, tell him it's over, block him from ever contacting you and then never speak to him or contact him ever again.
posted by stealabove at 1:09 PM on February 24, 2010
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This all said, he does sound a bit sketchy, but more importantly: you cannot have a relationship where you don't trust someone. Break up, find someone you can trust, and if you can't find someone, think about some counseling or something.
posted by smoke at 12:12 AM on January 10, 2010 [10 favorites]