Not buying "Made in China"
December 11, 2009 1:48 PM Subscribe
I'm posting this under "Work and Money" rather than "Shopping" because my question is about the larger economic picture.
Here's something I've always wondered about:
Does money spent at secondhand book shops, thrift stores, resale clothing shops and the like show up in retail sales figures?
Every fiscal quarter (or more often) we hear about whether sales are "up" or "down" compared to the last interval. Are they counting only new stuff purchased from regular retail stores, catalogues, or websites?
I like buying used whenever I can, and I would like to think that my spent money doesn't "show up" anywhere in the official figures. Is that true? Someone enlighten me, please.
I like buying used whenever I can, and I would like to think that my spent money doesn't "show up" anywhere in the official figures. Is that true? Someone enlighten me, please.
Any money spent at licensed retail outlets that pay taxes (or file paperwork to prove their exemption from taxes) to the government get counted. So yes, money you spend at thrift stores shows up. Money you spend buying books from the homeless guy who sells them from a cart on the street corner likely does not.
posted by decathecting at 1:52 PM on December 11, 2009
posted by decathecting at 1:52 PM on December 11, 2009
I would like to think that my spent money doesn't "show up" anywhere in the official figures.
Why? What is your purpose in doing so? Anti-consumerism, or more broadly living off-grid? You will need to go more downscale than used bookstores to do the latter, but buying used is a worthy enough sustainable activity.
posted by dhartung at 2:33 PM on December 11, 2009
Why? What is your purpose in doing so? Anti-consumerism, or more broadly living off-grid? You will need to go more downscale than used bookstores to do the latter, but buying used is a worthy enough sustainable activity.
posted by dhartung at 2:33 PM on December 11, 2009
Given that US GDP is around $12 trillion or so a year, and given that the market for used goods is vanishingly small as compared to new goods, it likely would not matter a whit how much money you spent at used goods stores.
Their market size is too small to show up in statistics showing overall movements in a $12 trillion economy.
posted by dfriedman at 3:06 PM on December 11, 2009
Their market size is too small to show up in statistics showing overall movements in a $12 trillion economy.
posted by dfriedman at 3:06 PM on December 11, 2009
Their market size is too small to show up in statistics showing overall movements in a $12 trillion economy.
The second-hand market does show up in the Census' retail trade survey, accounting for 0.3% of retail sales & food services (excluding motor vehicles and parts). If you include autos, the second-hand market accounts for 2% of retail sales.
posted by mhum at 3:41 PM on December 11, 2009
The second-hand market does show up in the Census' retail trade survey, accounting for 0.3% of retail sales & food services (excluding motor vehicles and parts). If you include autos, the second-hand market accounts for 2% of retail sales.
posted by mhum at 3:41 PM on December 11, 2009
Does money spent at secondhand book shops, thrift stores, resale clothing shops and the like show up in retail sales figures?
Specifically, this activity is classified under NAICS 453310 -- Used Merchandise Stores (excluding motor vehicles).
posted by mhum at 3:43 PM on December 11, 2009
Specifically, this activity is classified under NAICS 453310 -- Used Merchandise Stores (excluding motor vehicles).
posted by mhum at 3:43 PM on December 11, 2009
The second-hand market does show up in the Census' retail trade survey, accounting for 0.3% of retail sales & food services (excluding motor vehicles and parts). If you include autos, the second-hand market accounts for 2% of retail sales.
0.3% of retail sales is essentially meaningless in a $12 trillion economy. The nature of the question makes me suspect that used cars are not really pertinent; even if they are, according to the link you give they comprise 2% of retail sales. So I'm not sure what the point here is other than that the used goods portion of the economy is very small.
posted by dfriedman at 3:48 PM on December 11, 2009
0.3% of retail sales is essentially meaningless in a $12 trillion economy. The nature of the question makes me suspect that used cars are not really pertinent; even if they are, according to the link you give they comprise 2% of retail sales. So I'm not sure what the point here is other than that the used goods portion of the economy is very small.
posted by dfriedman at 3:48 PM on December 11, 2009
I haven't read the linked documents, but I can't imagine that there'd be any way to include Craigslist figures. So if you're buying/selling directly person-to-person, then no, you won't be counted.
posted by chrisamiller at 4:04 PM on December 11, 2009
posted by chrisamiller at 4:04 PM on December 11, 2009
Wow. The figure for buying used is that low? I wonder how that breaks down, though. There are probably only certain classes of things that people will buy used, it occurs to me; you can't buy soap, toilet paper, or food used, for instance. I wonder how the numbers compare within classes of things that can be bought either new or used, e.g., clothing, accessories, furniture, dishes, books, music, movies, electronics, musical instruments, etc.
posted by limeonaire at 5:49 PM on December 11, 2009
posted by limeonaire at 5:49 PM on December 11, 2009
0.3% of retail sales is essentially meaningless in a $12 trillion economy.
I'm not sure that this was the question asked. I believe the question was "Does money spent at secondhand book shops, thrift stores, resale clothing shops and the like show up in retail sales figures?" This spreadsheet in my previous link shows that retail activity at second-hand shops are, indeed, specifically tracked by the Census bureau in their survey.
As a point of comparison, here are some other small NAICS categories that they track (all figures taken as percentage of total retail & food services sales excluding motor vehicles in 2008):
NAICS 44811 -- Men's clothing stores: 0.3%
NAICS 451211 -- Book stores: 0.5%
NAICS 44413 -- Hardware stores: 0.6%
NAICS 4482 -- Shoe stores: 0.8%
Note that the retail survey appears to categorize retail activity by the nature of the retail establishment, not the nature of the purchase. Buying shoes, books, hammers, or a men's shirt from Walmart would likely all appear under NAICS 452112 -- Discount Department Stores (3.6% of total).
posted by mhum at 6:16 PM on December 11, 2009
I'm not sure that this was the question asked. I believe the question was "Does money spent at secondhand book shops, thrift stores, resale clothing shops and the like show up in retail sales figures?" This spreadsheet in my previous link shows that retail activity at second-hand shops are, indeed, specifically tracked by the Census bureau in their survey.
As a point of comparison, here are some other small NAICS categories that they track (all figures taken as percentage of total retail & food services sales excluding motor vehicles in 2008):
NAICS 44811 -- Men's clothing stores: 0.3%
NAICS 451211 -- Book stores: 0.5%
NAICS 44413 -- Hardware stores: 0.6%
NAICS 4482 -- Shoe stores: 0.8%
Note that the retail survey appears to categorize retail activity by the nature of the retail establishment, not the nature of the purchase. Buying shoes, books, hammers, or a men's shirt from Walmart would likely all appear under NAICS 452112 -- Discount Department Stores (3.6% of total).
posted by mhum at 6:16 PM on December 11, 2009
The figure for buying used is that low?
To be clear, as chrisamiller points out, that figure corresponds only to purchases made in used merchandise stores. Individual, person-to-person transactions would not be counted.
I wonder how that breaks down, though.
Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any finer-grained detail on this subject.
posted by mhum at 6:19 PM on December 11, 2009
To be clear, as chrisamiller points out, that figure corresponds only to purchases made in used merchandise stores. Individual, person-to-person transactions would not be counted.
I wonder how that breaks down, though.
Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any finer-grained detail on this subject.
posted by mhum at 6:19 PM on December 11, 2009
The other thing to keep in mind about the low figures for used goods is that used goods are cheaper than new goods (which is one reason why some prefer to buy used goods).
So, if, for example, a used t-shirt costs $1 and a new t-shirt costs, say, $15 on average, the money spent on millions of new t-shirts ever year will vastly outstrip the money spent on hundreds (thousands?) of used t-shirts. Repeat that across all products for which there is a used and a new market and it quickly becomes evident why used sales figures are so much lower than those for new products.
posted by dfriedman at 6:54 PM on December 11, 2009
So, if, for example, a used t-shirt costs $1 and a new t-shirt costs, say, $15 on average, the money spent on millions of new t-shirts ever year will vastly outstrip the money spent on hundreds (thousands?) of used t-shirts. Repeat that across all products for which there is a used and a new market and it quickly becomes evident why used sales figures are so much lower than those for new products.
posted by dfriedman at 6:54 PM on December 11, 2009
If you include autos, the second-hand market accounts for 2% of retail sales.
To address dfriedman's objection (my own as well) in further detail, the total sales percentage held by automobile dealers is $57B out of $312B or about 18%. Of that figure, some $7B is used car dealers (although many new car dealers also sell used cars, the better crop of trade-ins, so call it perhaps $14B total). So used cars might represent 25% of dollar vehicle sales. But if you examine number of vehicles thanks to the Bureau of Trade Statistics, in 2006 (last pre-recession year) there were 13M new vehicles sold -- but 37M used vehicles sold. The dollar value is 60/40 new over used, but the unit volume is 70/30 used over new.
Now, vehicles are among the most durable goods people have and almost a class of sales unto themselves for that reason. But the same principle holds across appliances and soft goods in that volume is almost certainly higher for the used variety, even if dollar value is certainly lower. Then you need to consider how much of this part of the economy is off the retail industry's books and housed in garage sales, Craigslist, eBay, and other forms of private sale.
Again, I'm unclear about your objective so I can't say how this works into your secondhand-retail strategy. Suffice to say that you can probably buy a lot of stuff, in fact, house and clothe yourself entirely in used goods, and have a tiny impact one way or the other on the economic figures reported.
It's a little vague and unquantifiable, in short, and it would be simpler if you were approaching this from a clearer set of principles -- e.g. not buying anything connected with major polluters, or that are made in overseas sweatshops. That's something concrete enough where you can easily determine that your boycott is doing something, if only to keep yourself disentangled from complicity.
posted by dhartung at 9:16 PM on December 11, 2009
To address dfriedman's objection (my own as well) in further detail, the total sales percentage held by automobile dealers is $57B out of $312B or about 18%. Of that figure, some $7B is used car dealers (although many new car dealers also sell used cars, the better crop of trade-ins, so call it perhaps $14B total). So used cars might represent 25% of dollar vehicle sales. But if you examine number of vehicles thanks to the Bureau of Trade Statistics, in 2006 (last pre-recession year) there were 13M new vehicles sold -- but 37M used vehicles sold. The dollar value is 60/40 new over used, but the unit volume is 70/30 used over new.
Now, vehicles are among the most durable goods people have and almost a class of sales unto themselves for that reason. But the same principle holds across appliances and soft goods in that volume is almost certainly higher for the used variety, even if dollar value is certainly lower. Then you need to consider how much of this part of the economy is off the retail industry's books and housed in garage sales, Craigslist, eBay, and other forms of private sale.
Again, I'm unclear about your objective so I can't say how this works into your secondhand-retail strategy. Suffice to say that you can probably buy a lot of stuff, in fact, house and clothe yourself entirely in used goods, and have a tiny impact one way or the other on the economic figures reported.
It's a little vague and unquantifiable, in short, and it would be simpler if you were approaching this from a clearer set of principles -- e.g. not buying anything connected with major polluters, or that are made in overseas sweatshops. That's something concrete enough where you can easily determine that your boycott is doing something, if only to keep yourself disentangled from complicity.
posted by dhartung at 9:16 PM on December 11, 2009
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posted by shothotbot at 1:51 PM on December 11, 2009 [1 favorite]