"Like Bob and Me" or "like Bob and I"?
August 14, 2009 3:09 PM Subscribe
So which sentence is proper English grammar:
"If you eat like Bob and me, you will be healthy."
or
"If you eat like Bob and I, you will be healthy."
its the second one. add a verb and you will see: If you eat like Bob and I do, you will be healthy"
posted by dmbfan93 at 3:10 PM on August 14, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by dmbfan93 at 3:10 PM on August 14, 2009 [4 favorites]
The latter is grammatically correct, if stilted. Think of it as a contraction of "If you eat like Bob eats and I eat."
posted by lakeroon at 3:10 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by lakeroon at 3:10 PM on August 14, 2009
No, it's the first. Subjects are "I", objects are "me". If you eat like (insert object here).
posted by Precision at 3:11 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by Precision at 3:11 PM on August 14, 2009
if you remove bob from the equation, you will see that the correct grammar would "if you eat like me, you will be healthy."
posted by violetk at 3:12 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by violetk at 3:12 PM on August 14, 2009
But the verb is implied, even if you take bob out. "If you eat like me do" is clearly wrong... the answer is the second!
posted by firei at 3:14 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by firei at 3:14 PM on August 14, 2009
The "I" is correct since the "I do" is implied.
posted by schrodycat at 3:15 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by schrodycat at 3:15 PM on August 14, 2009
No, it's the first. Subjects are "I", objects are "me".
"If you eat like Bob and me, you will be healthy."
Actually the subject of this sentence is 'you'.
posted by munchbunch at 3:17 PM on August 14, 2009
"If you eat like Bob and me, you will be healthy."
Actually the subject of this sentence is 'you'.
posted by munchbunch at 3:17 PM on August 14, 2009
If you eat like Bob and I do, you will be healthy.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 3:18 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by otherwordlyglow at 3:18 PM on August 14, 2009
The question depends on whether you believe grammar is a description of language as it is, or a set of rules for how you're supposed to talk.
If grammar is a description, then "like Bob and me" is right because "like Bob and I" sounds atrociously pretentious. (If you say "like Bob and I do," it's fine, but if you don't, it sounds stilted, and no one says it like that naturally.)
If grammar is a prescription, then you can argue about the results. But then you get caught up in all these silly arguments about whether it's okay to say "Hopefully, I'm going to get into a good college" and whether you're allowed to split infinitives in English. (FWIW, both were normal in Shakespeare's day, but were outlawed by pointy-headed Latinists in the Victorian epoch. Sense is slowly returning.)
Many reasonably educated people these days know they're supposed to say "you and I" under certain circumstances, but they overcompensate, and say "you and I" under almost all circumstances. ("That hat would look stupid on you or I.") And it's "wrong" under the current grammatical rules. But if people keep doing it, eventually it will be how people talk, and then it will be right.
Generally the simple rule of thumb is: if you take out the first part of the object ("you and"), does it sound good? You'd never say "like I," would you? So don't say "like you or I" unless you follow it with a verb: "like I do."
posted by musofire at 3:19 PM on August 14, 2009 [16 favorites]
If grammar is a description, then "like Bob and me" is right because "like Bob and I" sounds atrociously pretentious. (If you say "like Bob and I do," it's fine, but if you don't, it sounds stilted, and no one says it like that naturally.)
If grammar is a prescription, then you can argue about the results. But then you get caught up in all these silly arguments about whether it's okay to say "Hopefully, I'm going to get into a good college" and whether you're allowed to split infinitives in English. (FWIW, both were normal in Shakespeare's day, but were outlawed by pointy-headed Latinists in the Victorian epoch. Sense is slowly returning.)
Many reasonably educated people these days know they're supposed to say "you and I" under certain circumstances, but they overcompensate, and say "you and I" under almost all circumstances. ("That hat would look stupid on you or I.") And it's "wrong" under the current grammatical rules. But if people keep doing it, eventually it will be how people talk, and then it will be right.
Generally the simple rule of thumb is: if you take out the first part of the object ("you and"), does it sound good? You'd never say "like I," would you? So don't say "like you or I" unless you follow it with a verb: "like I do."
posted by musofire at 3:19 PM on August 14, 2009 [16 favorites]
"If you eat like I eat, you will be healthy."
"If you eat like Bob and I eat, you will be healthy."
"If you eat like Bob and I, you will be healthy."
posted by Houstonian at 3:19 PM on August 14, 2009
"If you eat like Bob and I eat, you will be healthy."
"If you eat like Bob and I, you will be healthy."
posted by Houstonian at 3:19 PM on August 14, 2009
dmbfan93 doesn't have it. 'Bob and me' is correct. As others explain, remove Bob from the sentence and the answer becomes obvious. dmbfan93 and acolytes are getting mixed up with 'Bob and I [verb]', eg '(Bob and) I eat healthily'.
posted by Beautiful Screaming Lady at 3:20 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by Beautiful Screaming Lady at 3:20 PM on August 14, 2009
Best answer: 1. If you eat like I do, you will be healthy.
2. If you eat like me, you will be healthy.
3. *If you eat like me do, you will be healthy.
Is it not clear from the above that "like" can also just take a noun (phrase), and "eat like me" is not a contraction of "eat like I do" any more than "bigger than me" is a contraction of "bigger than I am"?
Therefore:
4. If you eat like Bob and I do, you will be healthy.
5. If you eat like Bob and me, you will be healthy.
are both correct, but
5. ?If you eat like Bob and I, you will be healthy.
is a hypercorrection (though still probably "right" in some people's personal hypercorrected dialects, e.g. the people answering above).
posted by No-sword at 3:20 PM on August 14, 2009 [6 favorites]
2. If you eat like me, you will be healthy.
3. *If you eat like me do, you will be healthy.
Is it not clear from the above that "like" can also just take a noun (phrase), and "eat like me" is not a contraction of "eat like I do" any more than "bigger than me" is a contraction of "bigger than I am"?
Therefore:
4. If you eat like Bob and I do, you will be healthy.
5. If you eat like Bob and me, you will be healthy.
are both correct, but
5. ?If you eat like Bob and I, you will be healthy.
is a hypercorrection (though still probably "right" in some people's personal hypercorrected dialects, e.g. the people answering above).
posted by No-sword at 3:20 PM on August 14, 2009 [6 favorites]
There is no reason to think the verb is implied. In the phrase "walk like an Egyptian," an Egyptian is the object; there's no reason to add on an implied does. The first person pronoun is an object in this sentence, so me is the correct form.
Now, enough people use I with compound subjects that from a linguistic perspective it's probably true to say that both usages are correct. But if you want to sound educated and/or "proper," you definitely want to use me here.
posted by Hypocrite_Lecteur at 3:21 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
Now, enough people use I with compound subjects that from a linguistic perspective it's probably true to say that both usages are correct. But if you want to sound educated and/or "proper," you definitely want to use me here.
posted by Hypocrite_Lecteur at 3:21 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
Or what No-sword said.
posted by Hypocrite_Lecteur at 3:22 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by Hypocrite_Lecteur at 3:22 PM on August 14, 2009
The first answer "Bob and me" is right. "Bob and me" are straightforwardly the object of the preposition "like". There is no implicit verb "do" at the end.
I think what's happening here is that people who have been drilled to feel that "me" is somehow a lower-class way to refer to oneself, rather than a plain objective pronoun, are inventing strange excuses to justify their aversion to "Bob and me."
"Bob and me went to the park" is wrong. "Dad bought ice cream for Bob and me" is correct. So is "Eat like me" and "Eat like Bob and me."
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:22 PM on August 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
I think what's happening here is that people who have been drilled to feel that "me" is somehow a lower-class way to refer to oneself, rather than a plain objective pronoun, are inventing strange excuses to justify their aversion to "Bob and me."
"Bob and me went to the park" is wrong. "Dad bought ice cream for Bob and me" is correct. So is "Eat like me" and "Eat like Bob and me."
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:22 PM on August 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
Oh, damn. Compound objects. Sorry.
posted by Hypocrite_Lecteur at 3:22 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by Hypocrite_Lecteur at 3:22 PM on August 14, 2009
"If you eat like Bob and me, you will be healthy."
Actually the subject of this sentence is 'you'.
Yes, that's the idea. If the subject was "me", it'd be "I". No-sword explained it well, but my explanation was perfectly grammatically correct.
posted by Precision at 3:23 PM on August 14, 2009
Actually the subject of this sentence is 'you'.
Yes, that's the idea. If the subject was "me", it'd be "I". No-sword explained it well, but my explanation was perfectly grammatically correct.
posted by Precision at 3:23 PM on August 14, 2009
Both are grammatical and understandable. The pragmatics and social meaning of each phrase varies, especially depending on the context, and the deictic center (locus of perspective) is different for each as well. If this is a test question, it is a trick one, but the 'correct' answer is probably based on an outdated Strunk and White idea of prescriptive rules (I don't know offhand which one they'd go with).
posted by iamkimiam at 3:25 PM on August 14, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by iamkimiam at 3:25 PM on August 14, 2009 [6 favorites]
Just to elaborate some more...there are at least two underlying representations (UR) of this sentence, and it's really ambiguous which one(s) the speaker is referring to (and it doesn't really matter for comprehension either way). Other possible underlying forms are:
If you eat like Bob [eats] and [like] I [eat], you will be healthy.
If you eat like Bob and me [both eat], you will be healthy.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:32 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you eat like Bob [eats] and [like] I [eat], you will be healthy.
If you eat like Bob and me [both eat], you will be healthy.
posted by iamkimiam at 3:32 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
"eat like me" is not a contraction of "eat like I do" any more than "bigger than me" is a contraction of "bigger than I am"?
This is wrong. Bigger than me is technically incorrect in the same way that the example in the question is. Your way of eating does not resemble Bob as a person. It resembles his way of eating. Your eating = Bob's eating. Your eating =/= Bob.
Either version of the sentence is intelligible, but "Eat like Bob and I" is more correct in the prescriptive sense.
posted by ludwig_van at 3:34 PM on August 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
This is wrong. Bigger than me is technically incorrect in the same way that the example in the question is. Your way of eating does not resemble Bob as a person. It resembles his way of eating. Your eating = Bob's eating. Your eating =/= Bob.
Either version of the sentence is intelligible, but "Eat like Bob and I" is more correct in the prescriptive sense.
posted by ludwig_van at 3:34 PM on August 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
There's no "implied verb". That's just nuts. 'Bob and me' is the object of the preposition 'like', which is adverbially modifying the verb 'eat'.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:37 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by mr_roboto at 3:37 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
Bob and me.
I hate this grammar error more than any other...so of course I leapt on this question.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 3:39 PM on August 14, 2009
I hate this grammar error more than any other...so of course I leapt on this question.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 3:39 PM on August 14, 2009
The former. The way to figure it out is to separate it into two sentences - "If you eat like Bob you will be healthy." That one's obvious.
"If you eat like me, you will be healthy."
"If you eat like I, you will be healthy."
Clearly, the second one is wrong.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:40 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
"If you eat like me, you will be healthy."
"If you eat like I, you will be healthy."
Clearly, the second one is wrong.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:40 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Turn the question around. Both are correct depending on many factors.
"You will be healthy if you eat like me" vs. "You will be healthy if you eat like I do".
posted by muddgirl at 3:41 PM on August 14, 2009
"You will be healthy if you eat like me" vs. "You will be healthy if you eat like I do".
posted by muddgirl at 3:41 PM on August 14, 2009
If you eat like Bob and me [both eat], you will be healthy.
But that's not right. It should be "If you eat like Bob and I [both eat]..."
I think both of the originals are grammatically correct, though the latter sounds more grammatically graceful to people who know the rules.
"If you eat like Bob and [you eat like] me, you'll be healthy" is just as correct as "if you eat like Bob and I [eat], you'll be healthy." They're just sentences that are constructed differently.
posted by mudpuppie at 3:44 PM on August 14, 2009
But that's not right. It should be "If you eat like Bob and I [both eat]..."
I think both of the originals are grammatically correct, though the latter sounds more grammatically graceful to people who know the rules.
"If you eat like Bob and [you eat like] me, you'll be healthy" is just as correct as "if you eat like Bob and I [eat], you'll be healthy." They're just sentences that are constructed differently.
posted by mudpuppie at 3:44 PM on August 14, 2009
I goes with We, Me goes with Us.
Correct would be Bob and me in this example.
See previous question on mefi: http://ask.metafilter.com/128898/A-Question-About-I-Vs-Me
posted by kirstk at 3:44 PM on August 14, 2009
Correct would be Bob and me in this example.
See previous question on mefi: http://ask.metafilter.com/128898/A-Question-About-I-Vs-Me
posted by kirstk at 3:44 PM on August 14, 2009
"Like" is being used here as a preposition.
When prepositions are followed by nouns or pronouns, they take the accusative case - "me, her, them" - rather than the nominative "I, she, they". EG: "If you follow advice from people like them, you will never go wrong".
Prepositions can also be followed by clauses, in which case the rule above does not apply as the clause hangs off the preposition, not just the noun or pronoun. EG: "If you follow advice like they give, you wil never go wrong".
So if you hear an implied "do" in the phrase above (like Bob and I [do]" , then "I" is correct. If you don't, "me" is correct.
So both are correct. Or at least, neither is incorrect. On preview - phatkitten and others have it
posted by genesta at 3:48 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
When prepositions are followed by nouns or pronouns, they take the accusative case - "me, her, them" - rather than the nominative "I, she, they". EG: "If you follow advice from people like them, you will never go wrong".
Prepositions can also be followed by clauses, in which case the rule above does not apply as the clause hangs off the preposition, not just the noun or pronoun. EG: "If you follow advice like they give, you wil never go wrong".
So if you hear an implied "do" in the phrase above (like Bob and I [do]" , then "I" is correct. If you don't, "me" is correct.
So both are correct. Or at least, neither is incorrect. On preview - phatkitten and others have it
posted by genesta at 3:48 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
There is no implied duplication of the verb in the grammar of that sentence.
Grammatically it's only correct English to say "If you eat like Bob and me" because you would say "If you eat like Bob" and "If you eat like me."
However, we feel like "If you eat like Bob and I" is correct because we fill in a duplication of the verb in our heads; it's not technically correct, though, because the rules of English grammar don't automatically do that.
So rewriting the sentence is generally the best plan. "If you eat like Bob and I do" satisfies both grammar and our inner voices.
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:50 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Grammatically it's only correct English to say "If you eat like Bob and me" because you would say "If you eat like Bob" and "If you eat like me."
However, we feel like "If you eat like Bob and I" is correct because we fill in a duplication of the verb in our heads; it's not technically correct, though, because the rules of English grammar don't automatically do that.
So rewriting the sentence is generally the best plan. "If you eat like Bob and I do" satisfies both grammar and our inner voices.
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:50 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
This is wrong. Bigger than me is technically incorrect in the same way that the example in the question is. Your way of eating does not resemble Bob as a person. It resembles his way of eating. Your eating = Bob's eating. Your eating =/= Bob.
Ho boy.
Do you realized that you've just declared all similes ungrammatical? They're not. They're standard prescriptive English, taught in every schoolroom in the land.
I don't even know what to do with your declaration that "bigger than me" is ungrammatical. That strikes me as literally insane.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:51 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
Ho boy.
Do you realized that you've just declared all similes ungrammatical? They're not. They're standard prescriptive English, taught in every schoolroom in the land.
I don't even know what to do with your declaration that "bigger than me" is ungrammatical. That strikes me as literally insane.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:51 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
If I may throw in an additional wrench (because I enjoy watching prescriptivists' heads spin): shouldn't it be as rather than like? I think any educated person would agree that using like in this context makes Baby Grammar Jesus cry.
posted by The Tensor at 3:51 PM on August 14, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by The Tensor at 3:51 PM on August 14, 2009 [4 favorites]
Look, both are understandable, and explicable.
But if someone asks "what is proper", I presume that they are asking what is formal style. In that case, the first alternative is high style, the second is not.
I know MeFi has a few copy editors, and I will do some virtual hat-eating if any of them chime in to approve "If you eat like Bob and I" (unless it's a verbatim quote).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:54 PM on August 14, 2009
But if someone asks "what is proper", I presume that they are asking what is formal style. In that case, the first alternative is high style, the second is not.
I know MeFi has a few copy editors, and I will do some virtual hat-eating if any of them chime in to approve "If you eat like Bob and I" (unless it's a verbatim quote).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:54 PM on August 14, 2009
Respectfully, genesta, both are not correct. The correct grammatical structure here is "me". There is plenty of interesting psychological discussion around why we might prefer "I", but as written the sentence is only correctly composed one way.
posted by ellF at 3:55 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by ellF at 3:55 PM on August 14, 2009
Ok, forget my previous explanation. i_am_joe's_spleen, I still think you've got it exactly backwards.Here's what wikipedia says:
posted by ludwig_van at 3:56 PM on August 14, 2009
Usage prescriptionists tend to follow early grammarian Robert Lowth (1710-1787) in his assertion that than is a conjunction, and that it therefore governs the nominative case. Yet prior to Lowth's asserion, than was far more commonly taken to govern the oblique case, more commonly referred to today as the "objective case" [1]. The usage of many notable English writers is consistent with this view, e.g. William Shakespeare, whose 1600 play Julius Caesar contains the line:So prescriptivists would favor "I," although it's been used both ways for some time.
A man no mightier than thyself or me. . .
and Samuel Johnson, who wrote:
No man had ever more discernment than him, in finding out the ridiculous.
In actual usage, than functions as both conjunction and preposition; when it is used as a conjunction, it governs the nominative case, and when a preposition, the oblique case.
posted by ludwig_van at 3:56 PM on August 14, 2009
The former. The way to figure it out is to separate it into two sentences - "If you eat like Bob you will be healthy." That one's obvious.
"If you eat like me, you will be healthy."
"If you eat like I, you will be healthy."
Clearly, the second one is wrong.
It's not clear to me. I vote for "Bob and I," but it looks like we need languagehat to clean this up.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 3:56 PM on August 14, 2009
"If you eat like me, you will be healthy."
"If you eat like I, you will be healthy."
Clearly, the second one is wrong.
It's not clear to me. I vote for "Bob and I," but it looks like we need languagehat to clean this up.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 3:56 PM on August 14, 2009
Oh, and somewhat more constructively: I believe I was taught all that business about "implied" or "understood" verbs with than and as, but I don't remember being taught it with like. Prescriptively, you're supposed to write "He is taller than I" because there's always (prescriptively!) an implied verb with than. This strikes me as horseshit, though, and even in formal writing I treat than as capable of taking a noun phrase complement like other prepositions -- so I'd write "He is taller than me". The context of my formal writing was linguistics, though, where you can get away with just about anything that doesn't sound flatly ungrammatical.
posted by The Tensor at 4:02 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by The Tensor at 4:02 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
Ok, forget my previous explanation. i_am_joe's_spleen, I still think you've got it exactly backwards.Here's what wikipedia says:
That wikipedia article is about the word "than". The sentence in question uses the work "like", which is indisputably a preposition in this case. It can't even function as a conjunction.
Or is that last sentence ungrammatical? Do I need to say "It can't even function as a conjunction can function"?
No. I don't.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:03 PM on August 14, 2009
That wikipedia article is about the word "than". The sentence in question uses the work "like", which is indisputably a preposition in this case. It can't even function as a conjunction.
Or is that last sentence ungrammatical? Do I need to say "It can't even function as a conjunction can function"?
No. I don't.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:03 PM on August 14, 2009
It's not clear to me. I vote for "Bob and I,"
You would say "If you eat like I?"
Because that just doesn't make sense. Imply any verb you like, and it sounds like you're trying to make it conform to the rules your 7th grade English teacher taught you and not like you're actually correct.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:03 PM on August 14, 2009
You would say "If you eat like I?"
Because that just doesn't make sense. Imply any verb you like, and it sounds like you're trying to make it conform to the rules your 7th grade English teacher taught you and not like you're actually correct.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:03 PM on August 14, 2009
it looks like we need languagehat to clean this up (Pater Aletheias)
I would respectfully point out that iamkimiam is also a linguist, and that her response is the general view from the standpoint of linguistics. I love languagehat, but he isn't the only linguist here!
posted by ocherdraco at 4:07 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
I would respectfully point out that iamkimiam is also a linguist, and that her response is the general view from the standpoint of linguistics. I love languagehat, but he isn't the only linguist here!
posted by ocherdraco at 4:07 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Chicago Manual of Style, 15th Edition, 5.173.
"As a preposition, like is followed by a noun or pronoun in the objective case."
"Like Bob and me" is correct, as well as idiomatic. "Like Bob and I" is a hypercorrection.
posted by yesno at 4:09 PM on August 14, 2009
"As a preposition, like is followed by a noun or pronoun in the objective case."
"Like Bob and me" is correct, as well as idiomatic. "Like Bob and I" is a hypercorrection.
posted by yesno at 4:09 PM on August 14, 2009
Aside:
I believe this controversy exists because of the difficult question of the proper use of case in comparisons. ("Alice loves Bob more than me" [more than she loves me] and "Alice loves Bob more than I" [more than I love Bob] do, in fact, have different meanings, so a case can be made that "Alice runs faster than I" is correct and "Alice runs faster than me" incorrect even though the former is horribly unidiomatic and ugly.)
However, this is not a difficult case like that. Nor is it the"wrong" but perfectly idiomatic "Bob and me went to the store." It's just an overcorrection; the application of a "rule" where it doesn't belong.
posted by yesno at 4:21 PM on August 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
I believe this controversy exists because of the difficult question of the proper use of case in comparisons. ("Alice loves Bob more than me" [more than she loves me] and "Alice loves Bob more than I" [more than I love Bob] do, in fact, have different meanings, so a case can be made that "Alice runs faster than I" is correct and "Alice runs faster than me" incorrect even though the former is horribly unidiomatic and ugly.)
However, this is not a difficult case like that. Nor is it the"wrong" but perfectly idiomatic "Bob and me went to the store." It's just an overcorrection; the application of a "rule" where it doesn't belong.
posted by yesno at 4:21 PM on August 14, 2009 [3 favorites]
Wow, ten whole comments before we got the obligatory kneejerk antiprescriptivist screed! Metafilter, you're improving.
I'm going to join in with the opinion that they are both grammatically correct sentences with subtly different meanings (or possibly just different parses leading to the same meaning), though as N-s and IAJS point out the second one could also be a hypercorrected version of the first. The first one sounds more natural to me, but if sentences like "If you eat like Bob and I drink, then ..." are grammatical, then I don't see how you can argue that the second of 256's examples is ungrammatical.
posted by hattifattener at 4:35 PM on August 14, 2009
I'm going to join in with the opinion that they are both grammatically correct sentences with subtly different meanings (or possibly just different parses leading to the same meaning), though as N-s and IAJS point out the second one could also be a hypercorrected version of the first. The first one sounds more natural to me, but if sentences like "If you eat like Bob and I drink, then ..." are grammatical, then I don't see how you can argue that the second of 256's examples is ungrammatical.
posted by hattifattener at 4:35 PM on August 14, 2009
Chicago Manual of Style is wrong, IMO
Their example:
As a preposition, like is followed by a noun or pronoun in the objective case {the person in that old portrait looks like me} = since like is not a preposition but part of the phrasal verb looks like, so their example is entirely equivalent to {the person in that old portrait resembles me} which has misled them.
I go with you eat like Bob and I [eat] as entirely correct; like Bob and me is incorrect English, but perfectly fine for nonformal usage.
posted by @troy at 5:06 PM on August 14, 2009
Their example:
As a preposition, like is followed by a noun or pronoun in the objective case {the person in that old portrait looks like me} = since like is not a preposition but part of the phrasal verb looks like, so their example is entirely equivalent to {the person in that old portrait resembles me} which has misled them.
I go with you eat like Bob and I [eat] as entirely correct; like Bob and me is incorrect English, but perfectly fine for nonformal usage.
posted by @troy at 5:06 PM on August 14, 2009
It's "me".
posted by Kafkaesque at 5:15 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by Kafkaesque at 5:15 PM on August 14, 2009
Chicago Manual of Style is wrong.
It's a style guide. By definition, it can't be "wrong."
Both versions in the original question are permissible and defensible with context.
To me, and my ears are just as valid (and unofficial) as anyone else's: the first example ("Bob and me") sounds informal but fine, the second ("Bob and I") sounds pompous.
As a tiebreaker, I say if the guy's name is "Bob", then informal is clearly the way to go. If it's "Mr. Robert J. Wordwanker, Esq." then you need to use the second version.
posted by rokusan at 5:18 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
It's a style guide. By definition, it can't be "wrong."
Both versions in the original question are permissible and defensible with context.
To me, and my ears are just as valid (and unofficial) as anyone else's: the first example ("Bob and me") sounds informal but fine, the second ("Bob and I") sounds pompous.
As a tiebreaker, I say if the guy's name is "Bob", then informal is clearly the way to go. If it's "Mr. Robert J. Wordwanker, Esq." then you need to use the second version.
posted by rokusan at 5:18 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
> I would respectfully point out that iamkimiam is also a linguist, and that her response is the general view from the standpoint of linguistics. I love languagehat, but he isn't the only linguist here!
Yup, I second iamkimiam's excellent answer.
posted by languagehat at 5:19 PM on August 14, 2009
Yup, I second iamkimiam's excellent answer.
posted by languagehat at 5:19 PM on August 14, 2009
'If you eat like I'. Seriously? Try it with different pronouns - 'If you eat like she, you will be healthy'. 'If you eat like we, you will be healthy'. 'If you eat like they, you will be healthy'.
'If you eat like she, you will be healthy' - who would defend such a sentence? It's the kind of silly thing you end up saying when you try to force language to be perfectly logical, rather than conceding that convention also has a large role to play.
All this talk about implied verbs is a red herring. 'If you eat like I/she/he/we/they, you will be healthy' is wrong because no native speaker of standard English would think of saying it (unless that speaker had overthought that particular plate of beans, as so many have here). No, it's not logical - but the thing to do in this case is to shrug your shoulders and say 'Well, I guess language isn't always logical, and I've discovered a good example to illustrate that fact'.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 5:22 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
'If you eat like she, you will be healthy' - who would defend such a sentence? It's the kind of silly thing you end up saying when you try to force language to be perfectly logical, rather than conceding that convention also has a large role to play.
All this talk about implied verbs is a red herring. 'If you eat like I/she/he/we/they, you will be healthy' is wrong because no native speaker of standard English would think of saying it (unless that speaker had overthought that particular plate of beans, as so many have here). No, it's not logical - but the thing to do in this case is to shrug your shoulders and say 'Well, I guess language isn't always logical, and I've discovered a good example to illustrate that fact'.
posted by eatyourcellphone at 5:22 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Of course I bow to iamkimiam and languagehat, but if the question is instead "Which is likely to be viewed as acceptable in the context of formal writing," which tends to concern people more than the deep linguistic concerns, then the answer is still "Bob and me."
In the formal writing context, there's nothing like an authority to settle the argument. Chicago's a pretty good one.
posted by yesno at 5:32 PM on August 14, 2009
In the formal writing context, there's nothing like an authority to settle the argument. Chicago's a pretty good one.
posted by yesno at 5:32 PM on August 14, 2009
Question to those of you saying it's "I" because of an "implied verb":
Why do we never -- never -- hear the sentence that you're basing your claim off of?
That is, why do we never hear "If you eat like I, you will be healthy"?
Why does the "implied verb" come into play only when it's "Bob and I", not when it's "I"?
Are you seriously claiming that you would say "If you eat like I"? That strikes me as patently absurd.
posted by Flunkie at 5:36 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
Why do we never -- never -- hear the sentence that you're basing your claim off of?
That is, why do we never hear "If you eat like I, you will be healthy"?
Why does the "implied verb" come into play only when it's "Bob and I", not when it's "I"?
Are you seriously claiming that you would say "If you eat like I"? That strikes me as patently absurd.
posted by Flunkie at 5:36 PM on August 14, 2009 [2 favorites]
And for the people saying "you don't eat like a person, you eat like a person eats, and therefore 'eat like me' is nonsensical":
Merriam-Webster's, like: "in the manner of : similarly to"
Obviously, one eats in the manner of me, and similarly to me. One does not eat in the manner of I eat, nor similarly to I eat.
posted by Flunkie at 5:42 PM on August 14, 2009
Merriam-Webster's, like: "in the manner of : similarly to"
Obviously, one eats in the manner of me, and similarly to me. One does not eat in the manner of I eat, nor similarly to I eat.
posted by Flunkie at 5:42 PM on August 14, 2009
Silly, silly argument. Say "me" to sound like a normal person. Say "I" if you're wearing argyle and holding a pipe. Isn't that easy to remember?
posted by rokusan at 5:48 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by rokusan at 5:48 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
Could you just tell us what you and Bob eat already? Unhealthy people want to know.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 7:21 PM on August 14, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by obiwanwasabi at 7:21 PM on August 14, 2009 [5 favorites]
For whatever it's worth, I seem to remember David Foster Wallace using the more formal/stilted "I" version in certain sentences--not perfectly parallel to the example, but something like, "Bob was taller than he" as opposed to "Bob was taller than him". I remember noticing it at the time because it sounded so strange to me, and yet DFW was such a grammatically precise writer that he must have chosen it deliberately.
So, given that I would consider DFW a much more accomplished grammarian than I, I would be inclined to lend some weight to his choice, even thought I wouldn't normally use it in everyday speech or (usually) in writing.
posted by dixie flatline at 8:25 PM on August 14, 2009
So, given that I would consider DFW a much more accomplished grammarian than I, I would be inclined to lend some weight to his choice, even thought I wouldn't normally use it in everyday speech or (usually) in writing.
posted by dixie flatline at 8:25 PM on August 14, 2009
If I may throw in an additional wrench (because I enjoy watching prescriptivists' heads spin): shouldn't it be as rather than like?
My inner grammar nazi, who is actually fairly outer, says "if you eat like Bob and me", but "if you eat as Bob and I do".
posted by kenko at 8:37 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
My inner grammar nazi, who is actually fairly outer, says "if you eat like Bob and me", but "if you eat as Bob and I do".
posted by kenko at 8:37 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
DFW was such a grammatically precise writer that he must have chosen it deliberately.
OH! OH! Is this moderately relevant, sufficiently so that it won't be deleted? Because the single most annoying thing in Infinite Jest is DFW's persistent misuse of "sub" and "q.v.", frequently in close proximity to one another, as in "q.v. note 40 sub", which should be "vide note 40 infra".
posted by kenko at 8:39 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
OH! OH! Is this moderately relevant, sufficiently so that it won't be deleted? Because the single most annoying thing in Infinite Jest is DFW's persistent misuse of "sub" and "q.v.", frequently in close proximity to one another, as in "q.v. note 40 sub", which should be "vide note 40 infra".
posted by kenko at 8:39 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
"if you eat like Bob and me", but "if you eat as Bob and I do"
As I mentioned above, I think this actually might be because of grammatical cross-talk with the phrasal verb "look like".
"He looks like Bob and me" is of course correct English, since "looks like" is a perfect replacement for "resembles".
Back in the old days this usage of "like" was ungrammatical.
posted by @troy at 9:15 PM on August 14, 2009
As I mentioned above, I think this actually might be because of grammatical cross-talk with the phrasal verb "look like".
"He looks like Bob and me" is of course correct English, since "looks like" is a perfect replacement for "resembles".
Back in the old days this usage of "like" was ungrammatical.
posted by @troy at 9:15 PM on August 14, 2009
Best answer: This has been said already, but it bears repeating:
Rewrite. It's an oil slick as written. A portion of your audience is going to have a bad feeling about either phrasing. So I'd say:
"If you eat the way Bob and I eat, you will be healthy."
I would, in fact, repeat the verb (or its participle) for most active verbs. So:
I never heard anyone play the guitar like Jimi Hendrix could.
Don't complain like your sister does.
A glider doesn't really fly like an airplane flies.
But:
That guy's friend looks just like him!
He is taller than me.
I know the original sentence is built to start grammatical arguments, but good writers don't want those.
posted by argybarg at 9:39 PM on August 14, 2009
Rewrite. It's an oil slick as written. A portion of your audience is going to have a bad feeling about either phrasing. So I'd say:
"If you eat the way Bob and I eat, you will be healthy."
I would, in fact, repeat the verb (or its participle) for most active verbs. So:
I never heard anyone play the guitar like Jimi Hendrix could.
Don't complain like your sister does.
A glider doesn't really fly like an airplane flies.
But:
That guy's friend looks just like him!
He is taller than me.
I know the original sentence is built to start grammatical arguments, but good writers don't want those.
posted by argybarg at 9:39 PM on August 14, 2009
"He looks like Bob and me" is of course correct English, since "looks like" is a perfect replacement for "resembles".
What has resembles got to do with anything? "He smells like Bob and me" is also correct, even though there's no English verb smesembles that means smells like. (ALTHOUGH THERE TOTALLY SHOULD BE)
Back in the old days this usage of "like" was ungrammatical.
[citation needed]
posted by The Tensor at 10:12 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
What has resembles got to do with anything? "He smells like Bob and me" is also correct, even though there's no English verb smesembles that means smells like. (ALTHOUGH THERE TOTALLY SHOULD BE)
Back in the old days this usage of "like" was ungrammatical.
[citation needed]
posted by The Tensor at 10:12 PM on August 14, 2009 [1 favorite]
Syntax is tricky; you can't always assume that constructions that look similar are the same. Many people here are assuming that "If you eat like Bob and me" is the same construction as "If you eat like Bob and I do". They're not, and if you think they are the same you should offer some proof! A disproof is that "If you eat like I" is just impossible.
(Another point against "do": the explicit "do" can take modifiers: 'If you eat like Bob and I do every day, you'll be healthy." But in "If you eat like me every day..." the modifier can only be construed as applying to 'you' not 'me'.)
What is it then? Well, why not assume it is what it looks like-- a prepositional phrase? "Like X" has been a prepositional phrase for hundreds of years. A few old examples from the OED:
1340, Hampole. Whiles a man lyves he is lyke a man.
1380, Wyclif. If Y seie, Y know him not, I shal be liik you, a lyere.
1647, Cowley. What Lover can like me complain, Who first lov'd vainly, next in vain!
1710, Swift. Addison's sister is a sort of a wit, very like him.
As the last three examples show, the preposition takes the objective case. ('You' was an objective case form in Wycliffe's day.)
Now, grammarians used to discourage "like" as a conjunction: "Bob and I eat like we should." But again, no one's presented any evidence that there is any deleted VP in "If you eat like Bob and me...". Till they do, the PP analysis is simpler.
posted by zompist at 10:27 PM on August 14, 2009
(Another point against "do": the explicit "do" can take modifiers: 'If you eat like Bob and I do every day, you'll be healthy." But in "If you eat like me every day..." the modifier can only be construed as applying to 'you' not 'me'.)
What is it then? Well, why not assume it is what it looks like-- a prepositional phrase? "Like X" has been a prepositional phrase for hundreds of years. A few old examples from the OED:
1340, Hampole. Whiles a man lyves he is lyke a man.
1380, Wyclif. If Y seie, Y know him not, I shal be liik you, a lyere.
1647, Cowley. What Lover can like me complain, Who first lov'd vainly, next in vain!
1710, Swift. Addison's sister is a sort of a wit, very like him.
As the last three examples show, the preposition takes the objective case. ('You' was an objective case form in Wycliffe's day.)
Now, grammarians used to discourage "like" as a conjunction: "Bob and I eat like we should." But again, no one's presented any evidence that there is any deleted VP in "If you eat like Bob and me...". Till they do, the PP analysis is simpler.
posted by zompist at 10:27 PM on August 14, 2009
I love the idea that there should be an odour equivalent of resemble, but to be perfectly parallel, I propose "restink". Eg, "this dessert restinks bananas."
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:37 PM on August 14, 2009
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:37 PM on August 14, 2009
Question to those of you saying it's "I" because of an "implied verb":
Why do we never -- never -- hear the sentence that you're basing your claim off of?
You, like I, can probably think of examples...
posted by genesta at 1:44 AM on August 15, 2009
Why do we never -- never -- hear the sentence that you're basing your claim off of?
You, like I, can probably think of examples...
posted by genesta at 1:44 AM on August 15, 2009
MetaFilter's own Mark Liberman weighs in at Language Log.
posted by languagehat at 9:26 AM on August 15, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 9:26 AM on August 15, 2009 [2 favorites]
Rewrite to make the listener a cannibal: "If you eat Bob and me, you will be healthy."
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:59 AM on August 15, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:59 AM on August 15, 2009 [3 favorites]
More seriously, those who are arguing "I" on the grounds of an implied verb are confusing "like" with a subordinating conjunction. Implied verbs can come into play with subordinating conjunctions such as "than." As pointed out above, "Alice loves Bob more than me" and "Alice loves Bob more than I" are both correct, but have different meanings. ("Alice loves Bob more than [Alice loves] me" vs. "Alice loves Bob more than I [love Bob].")
However, "like" is never a conjunction [scroll down to "The Case of Like and As"] but can be a preposition, and as such should be followed by the objective case.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:09 AM on August 15, 2009
However, "like" is never a conjunction [scroll down to "The Case of Like and As"] but can be a preposition, and as such should be followed by the objective case.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:09 AM on August 15, 2009
As further meat to chew on, now that the original example has been reduced to pulp, consider these:
I love you more than him.
I love you more than he (does).
The first contrasts "you" and "him", whereas the second contrasts "I" and "he". Both are grammatical.
posted by johnwcowan at 11:57 AM on August 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
I love you more than him.
I love you more than he (does).
The first contrasts "you" and "him", whereas the second contrasts "I" and "he". Both are grammatical.
posted by johnwcowan at 11:57 AM on August 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
Yes, but "than" and "like" are not grammatically interchangeable. The question at hand is about "like."
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:45 PM on August 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:45 PM on August 15, 2009 [1 favorite]
Just based on instinct, I would've used the phantom "implied verb" and gone with "I." But like with the recent I/me thread about the truckers, only an English professor grading an essay would care much either way. I kinda wonder if brawls ever erupt over grammar rules in the English professors' lounge.
Whatever you pick, just don't use "If you eat like Bob and myself," which seems to be the way pretty much everyone on TV nowadays would say it.
(Or they'd phrase it: "Would you be healthy if you ate like Bob and me? Absolutely you would." Or "If you ate like Bob and me, going forward, you would be healthy.")
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 1:09 AM on August 16, 2009
Whatever you pick, just don't use "If you eat like Bob and myself," which seems to be the way pretty much everyone on TV nowadays would say it.
(Or they'd phrase it: "Would you be healthy if you ate like Bob and me? Absolutely you would." Or "If you ate like Bob and me, going forward, you would be healthy.")
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 1:09 AM on August 16, 2009
Response by poster: Hey everyone.
So I've read every comment in this thread and am fascinated by the conversation which has developed. Despite the fact that the closest thing there has been to a consensus is an agreement that the sentence should be rewritten, my question has been answered.
I phrased the question in the context of "proper English" though, as many others here were quick to point out perhaps the more important question is which will sound funny to your audience's ears.
I had asked this question as the result of a debate with my wife. My position was that "Bob and I" was what most people would expect to hear and that it was especially what most people would expect to read. She, of course, was a "Bob and me"er.
Upon posting this here, I really expected to get a rapid series of "Bob and I" replies, thus ending the debate. Instead I learned that this is a grammatical hotspot that goes far beyond my dining room table.
posted by 256 at 8:19 AM on August 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
So I've read every comment in this thread and am fascinated by the conversation which has developed. Despite the fact that the closest thing there has been to a consensus is an agreement that the sentence should be rewritten, my question has been answered.
I phrased the question in the context of "proper English" though, as many others here were quick to point out perhaps the more important question is which will sound funny to your audience's ears.
I had asked this question as the result of a debate with my wife. My position was that "Bob and I" was what most people would expect to hear and that it was especially what most people would expect to read. She, of course, was a "Bob and me"er.
Upon posting this here, I really expected to get a rapid series of "Bob and I" replies, thus ending the debate. Instead I learned that this is a grammatical hotspot that goes far beyond my dining room table.
posted by 256 at 8:19 AM on August 16, 2009 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Hypocrite_Lecteur at 3:10 PM on August 14, 2009 [4 favorites]