You got a permit for that cannon
June 8, 2009 8:44 PM Subscribe
So a good major league pitcher can hit nearly 100 mph throwing off a mound. But how fast can infielders and outfielders throw?
I'm just trying to get a gauge of how much of an advantage the pitching mound is, and what impact fielding has on throwing. I mean, I've seen some wicked throws from right-fielders to get a guy at the plate, and equally fast throws to first on bouncing balls down the third base line. How fast are these throws? If you want bonus points, how does this compare to the speed of a throw from a routine grounder to second?
I'm just trying to get a gauge of how much of an advantage the pitching mound is, and what impact fielding has on throwing. I mean, I've seen some wicked throws from right-fielders to get a guy at the plate, and equally fast throws to first on bouncing balls down the third base line. How fast are these throws? If you want bonus points, how does this compare to the speed of a throw from a routine grounder to second?
The mound yields a distinct advantage, as does the full windup - allows a full thrust forward, powered by the whole body. The mound is so advantageous that when the mound was lowered by 5 inches in 1969 it completely changed the game.
Like jimmythefish I am positive there are a fair number of fielders, especially third basemen, who could amp up throws well into the 90s, and an occasional outfielder. Second and first basement, not as much, and some catchers can really throw hard. In college and the minors, players get converted to pitchers - and from pitchers - from time to time, arm strength being an important factor.
posted by ORthey at 9:20 PM on June 8, 2009
Like jimmythefish I am positive there are a fair number of fielders, especially third basemen, who could amp up throws well into the 90s, and an occasional outfielder. Second and first basement, not as much, and some catchers can really throw hard. In college and the minors, players get converted to pitchers - and from pitchers - from time to time, arm strength being an important factor.
posted by ORthey at 9:20 PM on June 8, 2009
Also, if you google velocity infielders you get all sorts of hits.
posted by ORthey at 9:23 PM on June 8, 2009
posted by ORthey at 9:23 PM on June 8, 2009
At his peak, Ivan Rodriguez's throws to second on base-stealing attempts were supposedly in the mid- to high-90s. Hard infield throws are generally in the low to mid-80s, depending on the player. Lob throws on routine plays, I don't know exactly, but would guess 40/50.
The mound doesn't actually add a ton of velocity. Maybe 5 mph. It allows a longer stride and that means a little more power from the trunk/lower body. The higher angle helps a bit too. Not all pitchers get their velocity from the same place, so the impact varies a bit from player to player.
posted by shadow vector at 9:28 PM on June 8, 2009
The mound doesn't actually add a ton of velocity. Maybe 5 mph. It allows a longer stride and that means a little more power from the trunk/lower body. The higher angle helps a bit too. Not all pitchers get their velocity from the same place, so the impact varies a bit from player to player.
posted by shadow vector at 9:28 PM on June 8, 2009
I'm just trying to get a gauge of how much of an advantage the pitching mound is
Obviously, pitching is more than just velocity. And the mound is a huge advantage to control and general pitching effectiveness.
* The ball is dropping a few feet in height as it travels to the plate.
* Striding forward shortens the distance from the rubber to the plate, which allows for less time for the batter to react. Hello, 6-foot-10 Randy Johnson...
* Mounds are sculpted before and during the game, allowing pitchers to have consistent motions.
what impact fielding has on throwing.
Consider that the balls requiring super-fast throws are probably caught at weird angles and thrown somewhat off balance. A shortstop going to his right to get the ball isn't going to try to throw it harder than a routine grounder. This will lessen his control.
I mean, I've seen some wicked throws from right-fielders to get a guy at the plate, and equally fast throws to first on bouncing balls down the third base line.
Consider also that outfielders are often charging forward when they throw, taking an extra step or two to really crank it (which offsets the time taken for the longer wind up). This isn't something an infielder will have time for.
In the end, position players can throw nearly as hard as pitchers, but they can't do it consistently or with fine control. On the other hand, pitchers can't get their usual velocity when attempting to throw from anywhere except their standard wind-ups. Ever see a pitcher muff a routine toss to first? Muscle memory works against them as much as it does for them.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:22 PM on June 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Obviously, pitching is more than just velocity. And the mound is a huge advantage to control and general pitching effectiveness.
* The ball is dropping a few feet in height as it travels to the plate.
* Striding forward shortens the distance from the rubber to the plate, which allows for less time for the batter to react. Hello, 6-foot-10 Randy Johnson...
* Mounds are sculpted before and during the game, allowing pitchers to have consistent motions.
what impact fielding has on throwing.
Consider that the balls requiring super-fast throws are probably caught at weird angles and thrown somewhat off balance. A shortstop going to his right to get the ball isn't going to try to throw it harder than a routine grounder. This will lessen his control.
I mean, I've seen some wicked throws from right-fielders to get a guy at the plate, and equally fast throws to first on bouncing balls down the third base line.
Consider also that outfielders are often charging forward when they throw, taking an extra step or two to really crank it (which offsets the time taken for the longer wind up). This isn't something an infielder will have time for.
In the end, position players can throw nearly as hard as pitchers, but they can't do it consistently or with fine control. On the other hand, pitchers can't get their usual velocity when attempting to throw from anywhere except their standard wind-ups. Ever see a pitcher muff a routine toss to first? Muscle memory works against them as much as it does for them.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:22 PM on June 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
isn't going to try to throw it harder than a routine grounder.
'Scuse me. IS going to try to throw it harder, to compensate for the additional time he took getting to the ball in the first place.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:23 PM on June 8, 2009
'Scuse me. IS going to try to throw it harder, to compensate for the additional time he took getting to the ball in the first place.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:23 PM on June 8, 2009
I don't know how much the mound's height has to do with pure velocity as much as the incoming angle. Wouldn't pushing off of the raised rubber, along with a full wind-up, be more significant factors? Although there seems to be some debate about velocity from a wind-up vs the stretch.
But even if someone like Nolan Ryan in his prime had to zing throws from shortstop after taking a grounder, it probably wouldn't be nearly as fast his pitches. I'd think another factor would be that infielders can't rely on their legs to drive as much. Plus, a typical throw from SS or 3B would be at least double 60'6".
And throwing from the outfield is different since you're throwing for even more distance. But if someone like Ichiro practiced throwing off the mound (and I think he has), he could probably gun it to the plate pretty well.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 11:51 PM on June 8, 2009
But even if someone like Nolan Ryan in his prime had to zing throws from shortstop after taking a grounder, it probably wouldn't be nearly as fast his pitches. I'd think another factor would be that infielders can't rely on their legs to drive as much. Plus, a typical throw from SS or 3B would be at least double 60'6".
And throwing from the outfield is different since you're throwing for even more distance. But if someone like Ichiro practiced throwing off the mound (and I think he has), he could probably gun it to the plate pretty well.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 11:51 PM on June 8, 2009
As a data point, Jonathan Van Avery, Red Sox backup CF, has about a 83mph fastball.
posted by General Malaise at 6:19 AM on June 9, 2009
posted by General Malaise at 6:19 AM on June 9, 2009
The pitcher's mound was lowered in 1969 due to Bob Gibson's stellar statistics in 1968.
posted by dfriedman at 7:42 AM on June 9, 2009
posted by dfriedman at 7:42 AM on June 9, 2009
The OP asks what advantage the mound has over a fielder. And I think that has been pretty much addressed: it does but even more so, the wind-up gives the pitcher his power.
There are way too many variables here to do a pitcher v position player without constraints.
First: as touched upon above, the objective of a pitcher is different from a position player. The pitcher has to not just throw hard. The pitcher only job is to make the batter miss with movement and velocity changes. Not just sheer velocity. A skill-set that is wholly different than an position player, whose primary job is to stop a batted ball and his secondary job is to get the ball to a base.
Second: the mound and more importantly the wind-up add velocity that can't be matched by a position player.
Third: if you really want to parse this out, the speed of the average pitcher's fastball is near 100 at the point of release then drops over the 55 or so feet (remember from point of release, not rubber) to an average in the high 80's. So where in the ball's travels are you questioning? Obviously a crazy question of me to ask but it highlights that if it is the point of release the pitcher wins easily. The point of delivery (the batter/the first baseman) is unfair since a pitcher has abut 55 feet of ball travel and a position player like a third baseman or right-fielder can have way over 100 feet.
Either way it's quickly clear that the pitcher v position player is not comparable since a position player also has several variables in their release (that is, did they get a step start or are they throwing from their heels and then the distance they throw degrading the release velocity.)
If you normalize the conditions, say a pitcher and a position player stand on a spot and take one step in their release - like a normal game of toss - my guess is that a pitcher would have a slight advantage in velocity since their livelihood is based on their arm and supporting muscles to throw and so they work that motion instead of figuring out how to turn a double play or shag a fly. (But again, that's only the power pitcher. A finesse pitcher who works more with movement versus velocity would probably lose to a catcher.)
posted by Kensational at 1:18 PM on June 9, 2009
There are way too many variables here to do a pitcher v position player without constraints.
First: as touched upon above, the objective of a pitcher is different from a position player. The pitcher has to not just throw hard. The pitcher only job is to make the batter miss with movement and velocity changes. Not just sheer velocity. A skill-set that is wholly different than an position player, whose primary job is to stop a batted ball and his secondary job is to get the ball to a base.
Second: the mound and more importantly the wind-up add velocity that can't be matched by a position player.
Third: if you really want to parse this out, the speed of the average pitcher's fastball is near 100 at the point of release then drops over the 55 or so feet (remember from point of release, not rubber) to an average in the high 80's. So where in the ball's travels are you questioning? Obviously a crazy question of me to ask but it highlights that if it is the point of release the pitcher wins easily. The point of delivery (the batter/the first baseman) is unfair since a pitcher has abut 55 feet of ball travel and a position player like a third baseman or right-fielder can have way over 100 feet.
Either way it's quickly clear that the pitcher v position player is not comparable since a position player also has several variables in their release (that is, did they get a step start or are they throwing from their heels and then the distance they throw degrading the release velocity.)
If you normalize the conditions, say a pitcher and a position player stand on a spot and take one step in their release - like a normal game of toss - my guess is that a pitcher would have a slight advantage in velocity since their livelihood is based on their arm and supporting muscles to throw and so they work that motion instead of figuring out how to turn a double play or shag a fly. (But again, that's only the power pitcher. A finesse pitcher who works more with movement versus velocity would probably lose to a catcher.)
posted by Kensational at 1:18 PM on June 9, 2009
There's an answer (of sorts) over here
>[...] Diamondbacks veteran first baseman Mark Grace [...], armed with a 70-mph fastball and a quiver full of one-liners, took the edge off the anguish of defeat by taking the mound in the ninth inning, fulfilling his wish to pitch in the Major Leagues after 14 seasons.
Granted he is a first basemen so he has minimal experience throwing runners out.
posted by philfromhavelock at 4:47 PM on June 9, 2009
>[...] Diamondbacks veteran first baseman Mark Grace [...], armed with a 70-mph fastball and a quiver full of one-liners, took the edge off the anguish of defeat by taking the mound in the ninth inning, fulfilling his wish to pitch in the Major Leagues after 14 seasons.
Granted he is a first basemen so he has minimal experience throwing runners out.
posted by philfromhavelock at 4:47 PM on June 9, 2009
Response by poster: Great answers everyone! I should've noted that the accuracy (and consistency) a pitcher must possess might offset some of their speed. A fielder's free range of motion might be beneficial in throwing velocity too (as opposed to being forced to keep a foot on the rubber). I also agree with what one of you said regarding muscle memory - once you're trained to do things a certain way, throwing styles are difficult to measure against each other. FWIW, I think a third baseman could more easily become a pitcher than the other way around. Thanks for the insight, y'all.
posted by antonymous at 5:04 PM on June 10, 2009
posted by antonymous at 5:04 PM on June 10, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by jimmythefish at 8:54 PM on June 8, 2009