Could anything make a nice guy less attractive?

March 16, 2009 2:36 PM

Unemployed and dating... Advice!

So, I (and hundreds of thousands of other poor saps) got laid off recently. Eh. I've survived other layoffs; this too will pass.

I'm also enrolled in an online dating service, and fully committed to being honest with all my dates (so little-white-lies aren't an option). Let's be realistic here: an out-of-work guy is about as handicapped as an unattractive women. Like it or not, in general, men are visually stimulated, and women like successful men.

I've had a consistent, high salary, and will again. In the meantime, I'm bettering myself: trying to learn new skills, looking into starting a new business, and so on. I've decided that putting my dating life on hold would feel a bit like "giving up", so I'm staying engaged there, too.

In addition, I have some terrific use'm-or-lose'm restaurant coupons coming due in the next few months, so I can actually afford to take a lady out to dinner without endangering my budget. But first I have to get them there.

How can I present myself in the best possible light to ladies who show interest in my profile, or respond to my initial emails? I've found the question comes up pretty quickly, usually as "So, where do you work?"

posted by IAmBroom to human relations (36 comments total)

I've had a consistent, high salary, and will again. In the meantime, I'm bettering myself: trying to learn new skills, looking into starting a new business, and so on. I've decided that putting my dating life on hold would feel a bit like "giving up", so I'm staying engaged there, too.

This is very try-hard, and will hurt you a lot more than your employment status. It's the kind of thing you'd say to explain a gap on your resume, not to attract a gal you'd like to fuck.

Just say you got laid off--bad economy and all--but you're looking forward to enjoying some time away from work. And you'll get another job when you're ready to.
posted by mpls2 at 2:42 PM on March 16

Just tell them the truth. You don't want a woman who'd dump you just for being unemployed. Yes, women like successful men, but we also understand that layoffs happen to everyone. There's a big difference between being laid off for reasons you couldn't help - especially if you're actively improving your skills and/or looking for work - and being a lazy slob who got fired and just doesn't feel like working. So, if you get the "what do you do?" question, just say, "I'm a [whatever you do], but I was recently laid off. This economy, you know? Anyway, I'm looking into starting a business now that I've got the time. How about you?"
posted by katillathehun at 2:45 PM on March 16

Don't talk about work on your first few dates. If they ask, say you're freelancing and that is all. Believe it or not, online dating is on the upswing right now, and people are very sympathetic about losing your job. If a girl insists on talking about your job, tell her a vague description of what you typically do and drop it.

Speed dating was started by a rabbi that banned speaking about work during the few minutes you had together because frankly, what you do for a living isn't what you're going to do on a date. You need to be compatible in your hobbies, musical preferences, relationships with friends/family/pets, etc. THAT is what counts on a date, not how you earn a living.

If a girl won't drop it, write her off as being OCD or materialistic and move on to one who cares more about what you're going to be doing together vs. what you can spend on her.

Fun free and/or cheap date ideas: gallery openings, wine tastings, cooking classes, walking in the park together, picnic lunches, dinner at your place, museums on the free/late night special event calendar, etc.

I've dated guys who didn't have a job for months at a time. Then again, I was interested in the guy, not what he could do for me.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 2:46 PM on March 16

"Well, I'm a [name of profession here], but I just got the ax a few weeks ago."

I really think that's all you need to say. There are so many people in this situation right now, I'm sure the girls you're dating will understand. And if they don't, well, do you want to be dating those girls?
posted by ocherdraco at 2:48 PM on March 16 [3 favorites has favorites]

In the meantime, I'm bettering myself: trying to learn new skills, looking into starting a new business, and so on.

Don't just look into the new business -- spend time trying to start one. Maybe you can network and figure out how to do consulting in your field of work (if employers aren't hiring people, it doesn't fix their need to delegate small tasks). Maybe you can write a book about your field and self-publish and sell on Amazon. All of these things will shore you up for the years ahead regardless of what happens. Consultant, small business owner, writer, etc, are all very legit and interesting occupations, but if you make the smallest steps towards making those things happen, your problem about what to tell the ladies (and even be positive and enthusiastic about it) will be solved.
posted by crapmatic at 2:50 PM on March 16

an out-of-work guy is about as handicapped as an unattractive women.

If you are interested in the sort of women for whom this is true, then you are correct. (And, frankly, the fact that you would say it in the first place would seem to indicate that you are in fact primarily interested in the sort of women for whom this is true.)

If you are willing to keep your eyes open, however, you will discover that this statement is far from the universal truth you imagine it to be. There are many wonderful, interesting, attractive, intelligent women out there who don't give a flying fuck how much money you have.
posted by dersins at 2:51 PM on March 16 [39 favorites has favorites]

Honestly, in this job climate I really don't think it's that big of a handicap. I wouldn't be particularly fazed as long as the rest of the package was pretty great. And I'm exceptionally picky.
posted by meerkatty at 2:52 PM on March 16

Dersins took the words right out of my mouth.
posted by smich at 2:54 PM on March 16

What ocherdraco said. You get a free pass on this right now. Don't waste a second concocting any sort of b.s. story or embellishment. Why would you? I'm in basically the same boat. I updated my online dating profile to try to show that I have a sense of humor about it all.
posted by veggieboy at 2:57 PM on March 16

women like successful men.

Even if you accept this generalization, plenty of women are quite capable of defining "success" as something more complex than bringing down a six-figure salary or leasing a Jag. Success means doing what you love; it means having the coping skills and creativity and confidence to keep going even when the chips are down. It means being gracious and honest and honorable, even in the face of difficulties.

You've got a positive mindset and you're actively pursuing professional options to keep yourself moving forward. To decent, compassionate, thoughtful, smart women, that will say "success" right there. However, as dersins rightly notes, if you can only conceive of success in strictly material terms -- and are only interested in women who share that same definition -- then you are indeed at a permanent disadvantage until you get your next big paycheck. But please do yourself (and your potential dates) a favor and understand that not every woman thinks the same way.
posted by scody at 2:59 PM on March 16 [5 favorites has favorites]

I agree with dersins. I'm a man, and a while back I pretty gave up entirely on dating anyone who gave any sign of caring, beyond idle curiosity, about what my job was or how much money I made. My car is also a piece of crap, with body damage I have neglected to fix for nigh on 5 years, so that's kind of self-selecting too.

I'm not going out with a different girl, every night, but there are certainly enough on the same wavelength as me that I'm not completely lonely either.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:59 PM on March 16

I'm going to agree with those who say that in this economy, being unemployed is not exactly shocking to anyone. Lots of people are getting laid off, and most people are understanding about this. Honestly, in terms of how others will judge you, now is the best time to be unemployed because people will assume it's the economy and not any fault of yours.

But your whole thing about "an out-of-work guy is about as handicapped as an unattractive woman" kind of reflects a shallow attitude both in your expectations of women's expectations, but also of what you see as the most important characteristics in dating (money for men, looks for women). You may do better in dating if you lose these preconceived notions about what others want.
posted by fructose at 2:59 PM on March 16

dersins:
If you are interested in the sort of women for whom this is true, then you are correct. (And, frankly, the fact that you would say it in the first place would seem to indicate that you are in fact primarily interested in the sort of women for whom this is true.)

You're reading too much into that statement - and I never suggested it was a "universal truth". I've dated women who weren't conventially attractive; their personalities made them attractive to me. I suggested it was a handicap. It is.

To pretend that it isn't a handicap, as you seem to be suggesting, is believing in fluffy pink unicorns. Many women find men with jobs more attractive than men without jobs. And many men find attractive women more desirable than unattractive women. Quod erat demonstrandum.
posted by IAmBroom at 3:02 PM on March 16

Oh, and to address your question's title -- Could anything make a nice guy less attractive? -- the answer is yes, plenty of things make a nice guy less attractive than having been laid off in a recession.
posted by scody at 3:02 PM on March 16 [3 favorites has favorites]

I think it's totally fine to be upfront and candor about your job situation. Its more about how you present yourself and your prospects and interests that is compelling (speaking as a lady). I'd actually be interested in hearing how my date was dealing with his unemployment - it would give me a sense of his can-do-itiveness. On the other hand, though you didn't ask, I'd be less enthusiastic about a guy who took me out for a first date and used a coupon. I'm not at all suggesting that you should even be assuming you'll the tab. Personally, I'd rather split the bill than be taken to a restaurant where my date picked up the tab and used a coupon. If you really want to pay for the date, take her someplace you can afford.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 3:05 PM on March 16

Many women find men with jobs more attractive than men without jobs.

But again, you're overgeneralizing/oversimplifying. Would I find it unattractive if a man was out of work because he couldn't be bothered to stop playing gameboy long enough to apply for get a job? Yes, of course. Would I find it unattractive if the exact same man was out of work because his industry downsized and he was doing everything he could to find another job? No, of course not.

Do you see the difference between the two situations? And how the same woman can have two different opinions based on context?
posted by scody at 3:07 PM on March 16 [3 favorites has favorites]

To pretend that it isn't a handicap, as you seem to be suggesting, is believing in fluffy pink unicorns. Many women find men with jobs more attractive than men without jobs. And many men find attractive women more desirable than unattractive women. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Nonsense. A couple of years ago I went through an extended period of unemployment. I didn't even have the "excuse" of being laid off from my job during a major economic downturn-- I had quit my job in a good economy simply because I found it to be a toxic, soul-sucking environment. During this period of unemployment I dated.. let's say profligately. I found my lack of a job to be little, if any bar to meeting attractive, intelligent, interesting women. Including the one I'm planning to spend the rest of my life with. It's simply not the barrier you imagine it to be.
posted by dersins at 3:15 PM on March 16

And many men find attractive women more desirable than unattractive women.

The presence of extremely attractive women on online dating sites calls your balancing method into question. However, what do I know, being an older guy who has recently started his own clash of stereotypes by dating a successful, well-adjusted and attractive younger woman through online personals despite being unemployed for over a year for less-glamorous reasons than a recession layoff.

But I get what you're driving at, and the fact is that it is exactly the neurosis and self-consciousness that drove you to ask this question that can make a person less attractive. In other words, you're soaking in it. QED.
posted by rhizome at 3:24 PM on March 16

Guys. JUST STOP!

Yes, the OP is generalizing. Yes he is simplifying. But depending upon his age and the "type" of woman he is interested in his concerns are VERY VALID.

Many women, particularly those with professional careers, and those looking for a guy firmly entrenched in his career will pass.

Just because the rest of you know funky, cool chicks who live in the woods and eat tree bark and don't care about a guy's earning potential or his long term prospects (or more importantly what her judgmental female friends think) doesn't mean that the OP is wrong for asking this question.

It's NOT ABOUT YOU. It's about the OP.

The OP should be open about his prospects, stress his commitment to his field, and clarify that going on a date is a nice way to blow off steam after a hard day of job searching.
posted by wfrgms at 3:27 PM on March 16 [10 favorites has favorites]

To pretend that it isn't a handicap, as you seem to be suggesting, is believing in fluffy pink unicorns. Many women find men with jobs more attractive than men without jobs.

But many women also don't, is the point.

Speaking as another woman who is active in online dating right now -- and is also unemployed due to a layoff, to be honest -- the only thing I would find unattractive is a guy who is so hung up on his job that he feels he has to make up some cock-and-bull story about his employment. I ask people what they do for a living because I'm interested in what makes them tick, what their passions are, what they do with themselves every day; their actual profession and bank balance don't even enter into it. If someone dodges the question, it makes me wonder why they're dodging the question -- what, is it the mob or something? -- but even so I'll cut them some slack if they finally say something about how they are unhappy with their job or if they are working a McJob because they're really trying to get something else going, or whatever.

You've actually got a lot to say here. You're had a career, but you've been hit by the recession -- but, you're responding to that by being proactive. That all is VERY attractive. But then saying that "women don't like guys without jobs", as if women are all monolithic none of us might care enough to find out the reason why, THAT is what is unattractive -- the notion that your identity is so tied up in your employment status that you simply aren't noticing that WE aren't as tied up in it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:29 PM on March 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

Word of advice from someone who went on a few terrible dates with unemployed men in the past - do NOT try to be cute by saying anything along the lines of, "Dating you is my full time job!!!!!"
posted by banannafish at 3:32 PM on March 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

Basically, what dersins said.

Especially in this economy, saying you got laid off is no surprise. But jumping off of points already made is that your job is not your identity.

A woman is going to like you for you or she isn't going to like you at all. Unless you'd like to be dating those types, and you very well might, as you sort of sound like a type-A someone who wants a partner who will be impressed by a six-figure income and are feeling "less attractive" by virtue of no longer having it.

Minimize discussion of your career on your online dating profiles. Talk about who you are. Personally, if you have some interesting hobbies or passions, that would spark my attention much faster than anyone who seemed like a workaholic or braggart (not that you are one, but people who talk a lot about their careers so much that their confidence is tied up in them tend to be bores).
posted by cmgonzalez at 3:35 PM on March 16

Just because the rest of you know funky, cool chicks who live in the woods and eat tree bark

Dude, I appreciate you noticing how funky and cool I am, but I totally draw the line at living in the woods and eating tree bark. More to the point: I didn't care when I met my boyfriend that I happen to have a professional career and make more money than he does, nor that I had a retirement plan and he didn't. Consequently, we've been together for going on four years, though periods of unemployment and disability for him... not because I'm some bark-eating hippie girl, but because it's best relationship I've ever been in, and he's the love of my life.

The point is that PLENTY of women are capable of assessing men by something other than the size of their... checks. All of us (male and female alike) who are weighing in here to tell the OP to rethink these very narrow assumptions about "what women want" are actually giving him the best advice he's going to find. Otherwise his only options are A) lie while you're out of work, or B) don't date till you've got an impressive gig again, which he's already ruled out.
posted by scody at 3:40 PM on March 16 [6 favorites has favorites]

Yeah, so everyone is jumping down the IAmBroom's throat because he is prone to making boorish sexist statements insulting to men, women, and brooms

But fine, your question at hand: be upfront about your unemployment, but don't be penitent. Lots of people are getting laid off these days, mitigating this stigma you're worried about. Day dates are cute and cheap--walk around the park, point at cute dogs, make a picnic of sandwiches and juice boxes. These are good gestures to let her know that you're interested in talking to her, not liquoring her up with expensive drinks just so you two can stumble home together. You do risk an ending in which you're standing at her door at like, 4pm, stone sober and surrounded by passersby, and she's all "Welp, call me Friday!" because it's just a weird time to kiss someone, but you'll live.

Other inexpensive things: bookstore browsing, covert flask-drinking in the park, Scrabble, window shopping, cafe dates. Women, even the kind who swoon over diamonds and expensive crap or whatever, generally like to be dated because you like them. Talk is cheap and often really hot.
posted by zoomorphic at 3:48 PM on March 16 [6 favorites has favorites]

>To pretend that it isn't a handicap, as you seem to be suggesting, is believing in fluffy pink unicorns. Many women find men with jobs more attractive than men without jobs.

But many women also don't, is the point.


This is like deriding a poster asking for tips on how to come out of the closet to his grandparents by saying "dude, your whole premise is wrong, I know lots of seniors who are cool with teh gay".

Yes, we all know that in a world of 6b people there are going to be plenty of women whose number one priority is not what kind of work their partner does. But there are also going to be plenty of women (and men, for that matter), who DO care what their partner does for a living -- not only for financial reasons, but because some people might argue that what you choose to do for 40 hours a week (if you are lucky enough to have options) has some bearing on your personality. And yes, many people will say it has none. The fact that there lots of different kinds of people in the world is not a basis for not being allowed to ask a question relevant to some of them.

But, fuck, jumping all over this guy just because he wanted some tips on how best to broach his unemployed status to women he meets online? Give me a break.

To the OP: don't play it cute. Just say you lost your job because of downsizing. If this is a dealbreaker for a girlfriend given how many people are in your situation right now, well, she probably wasn't a keeper anyway.
posted by modernnomad at 3:51 PM on March 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

I'm not a woman, but I'm guessing that coming across as proactive about your life, knowing what you want, having ambitions and motivation and potential future economic clout is really what is attractive to women about men with jobs. Not the sheer fact that you currently are receiving a paycheck from a large corporation. That feels more like Dilbert.

Also I would just point out that if you follow the pop-evolutionary-psychology logic of your question (women want providers, men want hot chicks to have their kids) to its logical conclusion, jobs become irrelevant; they're far too recent an invention to play a role in evolution. How would you account, for example, for another dating cliche, ie. that women find men in rock bands attractive? Most of them don't have secure employment.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 4:01 PM on March 16

Wfrgms is 100% on-point. Wfrgms' comment; it's the most realistic. The only thing I'd change, OP, is that I don't think you should go overboard in "stressing your committment to your field." If you mention it too much, you'll seem insecure--and insecurity is more unattractive in a guy than is unemployment, believe it or not. Just state what's going on and keep it moving, don't "stress it" to the point that it makes your female friends anxious or uncomfortable. Good luck!
posted by GeniPalm at 4:01 PM on March 16

This is like deriding a poster asking for tips on how to come out of the closet to his grandparents by saying "dude, your whole premise is wrong, I know lots of seniors who are cool with teh gay".

Not to get all fighty about it, but it's actually nothing like this. In the case of coming out to your grandparents, they are a known quantity -- you only have small, finite number of grandparents, and you already know (or at least have a good hunch) what their general attitudes or beliefs are. In the case of online dating, the whole point is that there is a much larger pool of potential partners, who necessarily come with an unknown range of attitudes.

Anyway, to get back to specific pointers: I second all the advice not to spend much time on your professional status at all during the online stage anyway -- concentrate instead on showcasing your good personal qualities and the qualities you're looking for in someone else (humor? creativity? adventurousness?) You can do this by mentioning hobbies, goals, past experiences, amusing anecdotes, etc.

And yeah, there are lots of inexpensive dates to be had once you've decided to meet someone. The first "getting to know you" date after meeting online can legitimately be done over coffee. Beyond that, picnics, concerts in the park, museums (lots of them have free days, or are even free after a certain time every evening), art galleries, day hikes, etc. are all great ways to spend some time having fun and getting to know someone without spending an arm and a leg.
posted by scody at 4:10 PM on March 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

Having been laid off may be considered unattractive by some women, but I'd wager having a defensive vibe about having been laid off would be unattractive to a lot more women (I'm not saying you do, I'm saying you run some risk of sounding like you do if you try to get too clever about couching your status.)

Don't spin it. Say you're a whatever-you-are, and that you were laid off recently.
posted by Zed at 4:17 PM on March 16

IAB, I'm pretty sure you're a nice guy in real life. But the inclusion of "Let's be realistic here: an out-of-work guy is about as handicapped as an unattractive women. Like it or not, in general, men are visually stimulated, and women like successful men" in your question sounds pre-emptively defensive and condescending. You're asking this question because you obviously fear being a less attractive prospect. And going purely by numbers, the pool of women interested in you today versus a year ago may be smaller because:

- some women like successful guys because they like sharing the perqs of your success
- some women may avoid the unemployed because of their judgmental friends
- some women may avoid unemployed guys out of a superstitious fear that they could catch job-loss
- some women may avoid unemployed guys because they're embarrassed for you, or because they'd be at a loss to figure out how you could have a fun time dating if money was an issue

I don't know how much smaller your total pool of potential dates is, but it could be even smaller if:

- you have certain standards for conventional attractiveness (it sounds as if you're flexible, so that gives you more options)
- you have preferences related to age, social class, education or other factors that you may not have fully thought through yet (or maybe you have)
- you sound like a dick even though you aren't

Your pronouncement about what men and women find attractive in each other threw a spanner in the works here. Asking about this issue might have been more useful ("I know that many women might feel uncomfortable dating someone unemployed, while some women are fine with it, and some women might swing either way depending on how I act. How can I make myself a more attractive prospect to women who might consider an unemployed guy?")

Job loss sucks. Maintaining your self confidence is going to be a challenge. But one thing you might watch out is unintentionally insulting your target audience because of your nerves.
posted by rosebuddy at 4:19 PM on March 16 [4 favorites has favorites]

Just because the rest of you know funky, cool chicks who live in the woods and eat tree bark and don't care about a guy's earning potential or his long term prospects (or more importantly what her judgmental female friends think) doesn't mean that the OP is wrong for asking this question.

Whoa, hold your horses, partner. We aren't saying employment doesn't matter at all. A man who has a job and a decent salary is more likely to be responsible and hold up his end of supporting a potential family. It's not a given - it's just more likely. But the Ideal Guy can get laid off, too. It happens. It's not fair, but it does. So, if this subject comes up, and the OP's date turns her nose up at him when his unemployment is a) not his fault and b) something he's trying to remedy... why the hell would he want to date her? It would be a problem down the road even if he did manage to tell her in a way so clever she temporarily forgot how materialistic she is.
posted by katillathehun at 4:27 PM on March 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

Thanks.

Despite not expressing my fears in an acceptable way to Dersins, smich, fructose, et al, I'm getting the feedback I need to believe in myself out there.

Confidence is the real root of sexiness, after all. I forgot that.
posted by IAmBroom at 4:38 PM on March 16 [1 favorite has favorites]

Yeah. Besides cutting into your dating funds, not having a job should actually make it easier. Be up front. I never got laid more then when I was out of work for a couple of months in Los Angeles. Dating became my job. It was a lot of fun.
posted by runcibleshaw at 10:01 PM on March 16

[few comments removed - feel free to add them back without the bold "no YOU shut up" codicils]
posted by jessamyn at 10:37 PM on March 16

First of all, a man absolutely, positively DOES NOT NEED TO BE EMPLOYED or financially successful in any way to be fantastically successful with women. Artists and musicians get plenty of girls, even while making next to no money. One of my best friends gets laid like a rock star -- or did, before he went exclusive with his current (awesome, gorgeous) girlfriend -- and he hasn't had a job for months.

Now, you do need to be successful, but here's the thing: You define "success" for yourself. If having a high-paying office job defines "success" for you, then that's what you need to do. If writing songs about penguins and smoking weed defines success for you, then that's what you need to do. Of course, if you are wealthy but still insecure, you STILL won't do well with women. The closer you become to your ideal self, that person you always wanted to be -- your own "perfect 10" -- then the happier and more secure you'll be with yourself, and the better you will do with women and people in general.

Basically, if you see yourself as a 3 and are talking with a woman you see as an 8, you're gonna be all nervous and twitchy and fucking creepy-weird and she won't give you the time of day because obviously you're beneath her and possibly even a threat to her physical safety. (Scratch that -- you'd actually just stare at her from afar, like all the other insecure guys, aka "the male gaze".) Of course, as a 3 you'll be all natural and cool around women you see as 2s, so you can hook up with them all day. If, on the other hand, you truly see yourself as a 9, then talking with 8s will be as natural as talking with your sister.

So it may well be that YOU may need to have a job to get a girl, but only because you believe that to be so. Being unemployed won't hurt you a bit, but your insecurity about unemployment will KILL you.
posted by LordSludge at 10:26 AM on March 17

looking into starting a new business

Do watch how you explain this. You are probably not in this category, but I sometimes see men who are awash in ideas for some sort of kooky half-baked business or supposedly have 4 different businesses they are about to start. I wouldn't even mention it until you can say "I am starting a business."

It's a perfect time to put some more time and energy into your personal life, go for it!
posted by yohko at 11:05 AM on March 17