help with a wacky, wonderful kid
January 30, 2009 2:24 PM Subscribe
Strategies needed for negotiating with my 6 year old kid's school re: rules, behavior, etc.
I have an awesome, creative, engaged, bright, and also dreamy, sort of disorganized kid. She's very social, but has little interested in doing things for the sake of getting along with other people. Meaning she's immune to the hazards of peer pressure but also doesn't really care to do anything for the sake of seeming like the other kids. She also has little to no interest in obeying authority. Over the last couple years this has become a major problem for her at school. She basically never does anything unless she wants to do it. She's doing fine academically - at or above the level of her peers. And she likes group activities and projects. But she won't get in line when she's supposed to, she won't end a project she likes doing, and she won't do most writing or math assignments. She also gets really freaked out at times when she's asked to do things and may scream or hit. Other times she just cries. Despite they teachers and my working hard to reinforce the importance of rules at school, my kid ain't following them.
She goes to a small public charter school. The teachers have been pretty flexible to my kids' needs - she is allowed to do her own thing at many points in the day, as long as it isn't disrupting the other kids - but for obvious reasons there is a limit on this. Recently, the teacher, who is getting fed up, suggested that she thought there was something "going on" with my kid psychologically. I have set up an appointment for a medical check-up for my kid as well as an appointment for myself to talk with a child development specialist/therapist for advice, but my honest hit is that I don't think there is something "wrong" with my kid psychologically. I think for whatever reasons, school just doesn't work for her.
This seems solvable: I am interested in homeschooling, I know a little about it from reading and from friends who homeschool or were homeschooled themselves, etc. The problem is, I'm a single parent and full time student and until I finish school, there is no way I can do this. So basically, for the next year and a half, I have to figure out a strategy. I've considered trying to swing a super-alternative private school, but I'm worried about creating chaos in her life by switching schools for such a short time when I know I'm going to pull her out eventually. SO I want some ideas for how to make school work better for her.
Sooo, do you have ideas for tools and strategies to recommend to her teachers, for strategies for me in talking to my kid about this stuff, for books I should read, anything! Basically, I'm hoping to create a more supportive atmosphere at her school without disrupting things there too much more. Thanks so much,
I have an awesome, creative, engaged, bright, and also dreamy, sort of disorganized kid. She's very social, but has little interested in doing things for the sake of getting along with other people. Meaning she's immune to the hazards of peer pressure but also doesn't really care to do anything for the sake of seeming like the other kids. She also has little to no interest in obeying authority. Over the last couple years this has become a major problem for her at school. She basically never does anything unless she wants to do it. She's doing fine academically - at or above the level of her peers. And she likes group activities and projects. But she won't get in line when she's supposed to, she won't end a project she likes doing, and she won't do most writing or math assignments. She also gets really freaked out at times when she's asked to do things and may scream or hit. Other times she just cries. Despite they teachers and my working hard to reinforce the importance of rules at school, my kid ain't following them.
She goes to a small public charter school. The teachers have been pretty flexible to my kids' needs - she is allowed to do her own thing at many points in the day, as long as it isn't disrupting the other kids - but for obvious reasons there is a limit on this. Recently, the teacher, who is getting fed up, suggested that she thought there was something "going on" with my kid psychologically. I have set up an appointment for a medical check-up for my kid as well as an appointment for myself to talk with a child development specialist/therapist for advice, but my honest hit is that I don't think there is something "wrong" with my kid psychologically. I think for whatever reasons, school just doesn't work for her.
This seems solvable: I am interested in homeschooling, I know a little about it from reading and from friends who homeschool or were homeschooled themselves, etc. The problem is, I'm a single parent and full time student and until I finish school, there is no way I can do this. So basically, for the next year and a half, I have to figure out a strategy. I've considered trying to swing a super-alternative private school, but I'm worried about creating chaos in her life by switching schools for such a short time when I know I'm going to pull her out eventually. SO I want some ideas for how to make school work better for her.
Sooo, do you have ideas for tools and strategies to recommend to her teachers, for strategies for me in talking to my kid about this stuff, for books I should read, anything! Basically, I'm hoping to create a more supportive atmosphere at her school without disrupting things there too much more. Thanks so much,
Homeschooling is a band-aid. It won't help your daughter in the "real world." She will eventually grow up and have bosses who will insist she be on time for work, do her job, etc. She will have friends who don't always want to do what she wants to do, and if she always has to do what she wants to do, she won't have friends for long.
It might be a fix for now, but I'm sure you want your daughter to grow up and have healthy social relationships and be able to deal when she doesn't get her way.
As a teacher (I am not your child's teacher, nor am I a psychologist, psychiatrist or claiming to act as one), but based on reading some of what you wrote, I would agree that she should be evaluated. One thing that popped on my radar was ODD - Oppositional Defiant Disorder. I am in no way saying your daughter has this, but some of the symptoms seem similar. Any testing the school can do will help you to find out what, if anything is wrong.
And keep in mind, you may not like what they find out, that there may be something wrong, but at least they'll know something and with that information, you can then make a plan to help your daughter to achieve all that she is capable of - inside of school and out.
posted by NoraCharles at 3:22 PM on January 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
It might be a fix for now, but I'm sure you want your daughter to grow up and have healthy social relationships and be able to deal when she doesn't get her way.
As a teacher (I am not your child's teacher, nor am I a psychologist, psychiatrist or claiming to act as one), but based on reading some of what you wrote, I would agree that she should be evaluated. One thing that popped on my radar was ODD - Oppositional Defiant Disorder. I am in no way saying your daughter has this, but some of the symptoms seem similar. Any testing the school can do will help you to find out what, if anything is wrong.
And keep in mind, you may not like what they find out, that there may be something wrong, but at least they'll know something and with that information, you can then make a plan to help your daughter to achieve all that she is capable of - inside of school and out.
posted by NoraCharles at 3:22 PM on January 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Well, homeschooling is a good and worthy thing (I did it myself for four years when my kids were young.) However, please consider that knowing when and how to follow rules and expectations is also part of what education is about. You say she is in a flexible charter school which lets me know she's not in a rigid educational setting...sooo.....might be a good idea to keep plugging away with helping her adapt to a school setting. As you probably would agree if you think about it, this is a very very useful skill to have in adulthood.
It is also possible you have a very bright child who may also be dealing with some sort of psychological issue. Better safe than sorry, y'know?
(And eventually, do go ahead and homeschool. It's an awesome thing. )
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:22 PM on January 30, 2009
It is also possible you have a very bright child who may also be dealing with some sort of psychological issue. Better safe than sorry, y'know?
(And eventually, do go ahead and homeschool. It's an awesome thing. )
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:22 PM on January 30, 2009
Sorry that this will be long.
I'm not a doctor, psychologist, teacher, or any other kind of expert, but a parent who's been pretty involved in my kids' schools and education since they started school. I'm also a geek who reads a lot.
What jumps out at me reading your question is that your daughter is both gifted and learning disabled. I see many of the same sorts of behaviour in one of my sons who is also gifted/learning disabled. This is not to pathologize your daughter -- there's nothing "wrong" with her -- but if this is the case she needs the resources that will help with a possible learning disability, while helping her to reach her potential as a gifted child. Here is one resource that might help.
If after some research, and the link above is just one thing that can get you started, you think this is a possibility, your daughter will need to be properly assessed. You can start by approaching your school's principal and requesting a meeting with your daughter's teacher and the school's guidance/learning resource teacher. The tone you want to take is to assume that everyone is part of a team that wants only the best educational experience for your daughter. Hopefully, that meeting will be very productive: an assessment will be planned, the teachers will immediately start using teaching strategies that will help your daughter be more successful.
If the meeting is non-productive, or you find yourself stonewalled, you need to go to your school district's learning resources/guidance/special needs coordinator and ask for a meeting.
If all else fails, you may have to spring for the cash to have an independent assessment done. This will be expensive, but if some sort of learning challenges are identified, will go a long way toward ensuring academic success for your daughter.
My son also has Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD). ADD in girls can look very different than it does in boys. That might be an avenue to pursue as well, but a competent assessment should find that as well if it's there.
Our approach with our son is that everything, including the ADD, is a worthwhile part of who he is and shouldn't be messed with. However, he may need to avail himself of special strategies to meet institutional/organizational expectations, and those expectations are a part of daily life that we all need to cope with.
Feel free to memail me for an even longer discussion.
posted by angiep at 3:24 PM on January 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm not a doctor, psychologist, teacher, or any other kind of expert, but a parent who's been pretty involved in my kids' schools and education since they started school. I'm also a geek who reads a lot.
What jumps out at me reading your question is that your daughter is both gifted and learning disabled. I see many of the same sorts of behaviour in one of my sons who is also gifted/learning disabled. This is not to pathologize your daughter -- there's nothing "wrong" with her -- but if this is the case she needs the resources that will help with a possible learning disability, while helping her to reach her potential as a gifted child. Here is one resource that might help.
If after some research, and the link above is just one thing that can get you started, you think this is a possibility, your daughter will need to be properly assessed. You can start by approaching your school's principal and requesting a meeting with your daughter's teacher and the school's guidance/learning resource teacher. The tone you want to take is to assume that everyone is part of a team that wants only the best educational experience for your daughter. Hopefully, that meeting will be very productive: an assessment will be planned, the teachers will immediately start using teaching strategies that will help your daughter be more successful.
If the meeting is non-productive, or you find yourself stonewalled, you need to go to your school district's learning resources/guidance/special needs coordinator and ask for a meeting.
If all else fails, you may have to spring for the cash to have an independent assessment done. This will be expensive, but if some sort of learning challenges are identified, will go a long way toward ensuring academic success for your daughter.
My son also has Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD). ADD in girls can look very different than it does in boys. That might be an avenue to pursue as well, but a competent assessment should find that as well if it's there.
Our approach with our son is that everything, including the ADD, is a worthwhile part of who he is and shouldn't be messed with. However, he may need to avail himself of special strategies to meet institutional/organizational expectations, and those expectations are a part of daily life that we all need to cope with.
Feel free to memail me for an even longer discussion.
posted by angiep at 3:24 PM on January 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
A big part of kindergarten and first grade is learning to follow directions and learning how to interact with other kids in certain ways at certain times. Maybe your kid hasn't reached that level of maturity yet to deal with those expectations, like Daily Alice suspects about her kid.
Whatever the case, you need objective, neutral input from a professional before concluding that her quirks are endearing and merit special accommodations like homeschooling or paying for a private school. Both options seem like ways to avoid addressing the underlying issues with your child and the dynamics of your relationship with your child. Especially if her problems are with following rules or getting along with her peers.
I get that you want your child to develop her creative, offbeat personality, but she needs to do it in socially acceptable ways. Equally important to her future happiness is learning to follow rules in a structured environment at home and around other adults and children.
One of my friends with a child describe him in exactly the same terms as you. I would gently like to suggest that what seems wacky and wonderful to a parent can seem like age-inappropriate and spoiled behavior to third parties-- friends, strangers and especially teachers who have the more interaction with your child and others of her age group than any other person in your child's life.
The problem in my friend's case was that she regarded every flash of defiance and tantrum with amusement, and expected other adults to follow suit. Since the kid had no rules or routine at home, and the mother coddled him to a disturbing degree, it surprised no one that he didn't follow the rules at school. The child, not surprisingly, had no friends unless you count the doting mother.
The mother is an incredibly intelligent accomplished career woman, admirable in many ways, including the way she loves her son. It was a very sad situation because no one among her friends could find a way to tell her that she and her son needed professional help to build a healthy relationship with clear boundaries. It got to the point where people actively avoided the mother due to the child's tendencies to throw plates, food and shout hateful language at his mother's friends.
I am not suggesting you are that mother, but before you remove your child from a school, try to get at the root of her problems. Don't write her behavior off as precociousness that needs cultivation.
posted by vincele at 3:54 PM on January 30, 2009 [10 favorites]
Whatever the case, you need objective, neutral input from a professional before concluding that her quirks are endearing and merit special accommodations like homeschooling or paying for a private school. Both options seem like ways to avoid addressing the underlying issues with your child and the dynamics of your relationship with your child. Especially if her problems are with following rules or getting along with her peers.
I get that you want your child to develop her creative, offbeat personality, but she needs to do it in socially acceptable ways. Equally important to her future happiness is learning to follow rules in a structured environment at home and around other adults and children.
One of my friends with a child describe him in exactly the same terms as you. I would gently like to suggest that what seems wacky and wonderful to a parent can seem like age-inappropriate and spoiled behavior to third parties-- friends, strangers and especially teachers who have the more interaction with your child and others of her age group than any other person in your child's life.
The problem in my friend's case was that she regarded every flash of defiance and tantrum with amusement, and expected other adults to follow suit. Since the kid had no rules or routine at home, and the mother coddled him to a disturbing degree, it surprised no one that he didn't follow the rules at school. The child, not surprisingly, had no friends unless you count the doting mother.
The mother is an incredibly intelligent accomplished career woman, admirable in many ways, including the way she loves her son. It was a very sad situation because no one among her friends could find a way to tell her that she and her son needed professional help to build a healthy relationship with clear boundaries. It got to the point where people actively avoided the mother due to the child's tendencies to throw plates, food and shout hateful language at his mother's friends.
I am not suggesting you are that mother, but before you remove your child from a school, try to get at the root of her problems. Don't write her behavior off as precociousness that needs cultivation.
posted by vincele at 3:54 PM on January 30, 2009 [10 favorites]
Homeschooling is a band-aid. It won't help your daughter in the "real world." She will eventually grow up and have bosses who will insist she be on time for work, do her job, etc.
Bullshit.
I was homeschooled and was able to interact not only with neighbor kids but also with adults. It took a while to learn things like subtlety and discretion, but as long as you don't build a wall around your kid she will get socialized.
This talk of Oppositional Defiant Disorder is sickening, but makes me wonder what the provincial numbskulls at the local elementary school would have diagnosed me with if I was growing up there now. For the love of god, don't medicate your kid.
posted by dunkadunc at 4:06 PM on January 30, 2009 [3 favorites]
Bullshit.
I was homeschooled and was able to interact not only with neighbor kids but also with adults. It took a while to learn things like subtlety and discretion, but as long as you don't build a wall around your kid she will get socialized.
This talk of Oppositional Defiant Disorder is sickening, but makes me wonder what the provincial numbskulls at the local elementary school would have diagnosed me with if I was growing up there now. For the love of god, don't medicate your kid.
posted by dunkadunc at 4:06 PM on January 30, 2009 [3 favorites]
I was your kid. Smart, free spirited, strong willed. I was a brat. Now they'd call me ADD, but at the time I was labeled hyperactive.
My parents did the kindest thing. They created structure and taught me to respect it. Need a bit of time to finish a fun task? Fine. Hitting and screaming? No way.
It was challenging and I'm sure it was exhausting for my parents. However, it taught me to deal with others. I'm still a free spirit and strong willed, but I know how to focus when I need to do so.
posted by 26.2 at 4:23 PM on January 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
My parents did the kindest thing. They created structure and taught me to respect it. Need a bit of time to finish a fun task? Fine. Hitting and screaming? No way.
It was challenging and I'm sure it was exhausting for my parents. However, it taught me to deal with others. I'm still a free spirit and strong willed, but I know how to focus when I need to do so.
posted by 26.2 at 4:23 PM on January 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Dunkadunc, the OP is saying that this child *can't* do those things now, and the reply is suggesting that homeschooling may not be a productive way to teach them - not that homeschooled kids aren't socialized (although... wow, I've sure met a few who aren't) but that in this case, professional help might be a better way to do it.
And calling people a bunch of names to prove you're well-socialized is, well, an odd way to go about it.
posted by restless_nomad at 5:00 PM on January 30, 2009 [11 favorites]
And calling people a bunch of names to prove you're well-socialized is, well, an odd way to go about it.
posted by restless_nomad at 5:00 PM on January 30, 2009 [11 favorites]
Think: Kids is a resource that has given me some insight into why my challenging kid acts the way he does. Their theory is that challenging behaviors come from a specific set of cognitive delays. I don't entirely buy into their ideas (for instance, I think rewards and punishments can have an important place in parenting and teaching) but it's another perspective that's worth looking into.
posted by Daily Alice at 5:24 PM on January 30, 2009
posted by Daily Alice at 5:24 PM on January 30, 2009
I'm not a teacher, but a parent of MANY and I spent many years working in a cooperative preschool environment that had a handful of kids just like this. They are lovely, bright kids, but they have an extra challenge to work on to be able to function in a social environment. Homeschooling is not going to fix that at all. It is probably a great option for kids with other kinds of challenges, but eventually this kid is going to have to function within the (wide spectrum) of norm to have their own life someday.
What struck me about what you described are some of the earmarks of what is called "sensory processing disorder" or "sensory integration disorder". The kids I've known that have been challenged by this are extremely bright and creative kids, but when it comes to relating to other kids or especially transitioning between tasks or working with adults, the wheels just fall off the wagon. I don't know if this is the best resource, but check this out.
Some of the classic symptoms:
• Over sensitivity to touch, movement, sights, or sounds
• Under reactivity to touch, movement, sights, or sounds
• Specific learning difficulties /delays in academic achievement
• Difficulty in making transitions from one situation to another
• Tendency to be easily distracted / Limited attention control
• Activity level that is unusually high or unusually low
• Social and/or emotional problems
• Difficulty learning new movements
• Delays in speech, language, or motor skills
• Physical clumsiness or apparent carelessness
• Impulsive, lacking in self-control
• Inability to unwind or calm self
• Poor self concept / body awareness
One of the kids I knew that dealt with this was a family member that I spent a LOT of time with. He had many, but not all of the above issues and what was unfortunate for him was that his difficulties in relating to other people often came across as anger to those around him which made everything just WORSE. He was assessed and had some occupational therapy, things like massages (many of these kids can NOT stand to be touched like that), physical things like swings and jumping up and down, other things that sound ridiculous, but I will tell you one thing...
After several weeks of this, this kid turned into an entirely different child. He now could play with other children, be part of what was going on around him, transition between tasks without freaking out on his parents or teachers, he was suddenly a fun kid to be around and he was much happier too because he suddenly had the tools he needed to make the world less threatening to him. It was and is a complete miracle for him.
Anyway, long story long... have your daughter assessed. Check out the possibility of sensory processing issues. It doesn't mean she is flawed in some way, it just means she processes things differently and that must be SO FRUSTRATING for her. You can help her make her entire life easier if you address this now. Homeschooling is not the answer.
posted by Edubya at 5:38 PM on January 30, 2009
What struck me about what you described are some of the earmarks of what is called "sensory processing disorder" or "sensory integration disorder". The kids I've known that have been challenged by this are extremely bright and creative kids, but when it comes to relating to other kids or especially transitioning between tasks or working with adults, the wheels just fall off the wagon. I don't know if this is the best resource, but check this out.
Some of the classic symptoms:
• Over sensitivity to touch, movement, sights, or sounds
• Under reactivity to touch, movement, sights, or sounds
• Specific learning difficulties /delays in academic achievement
• Difficulty in making transitions from one situation to another
• Tendency to be easily distracted / Limited attention control
• Activity level that is unusually high or unusually low
• Social and/or emotional problems
• Difficulty learning new movements
• Delays in speech, language, or motor skills
• Physical clumsiness or apparent carelessness
• Impulsive, lacking in self-control
• Inability to unwind or calm self
• Poor self concept / body awareness
One of the kids I knew that dealt with this was a family member that I spent a LOT of time with. He had many, but not all of the above issues and what was unfortunate for him was that his difficulties in relating to other people often came across as anger to those around him which made everything just WORSE. He was assessed and had some occupational therapy, things like massages (many of these kids can NOT stand to be touched like that), physical things like swings and jumping up and down, other things that sound ridiculous, but I will tell you one thing...
After several weeks of this, this kid turned into an entirely different child. He now could play with other children, be part of what was going on around him, transition between tasks without freaking out on his parents or teachers, he was suddenly a fun kid to be around and he was much happier too because he suddenly had the tools he needed to make the world less threatening to him. It was and is a complete miracle for him.
Anyway, long story long... have your daughter assessed. Check out the possibility of sensory processing issues. It doesn't mean she is flawed in some way, it just means she processes things differently and that must be SO FRUSTRATING for her. You can help her make her entire life easier if you address this now. Homeschooling is not the answer.
posted by Edubya at 5:38 PM on January 30, 2009
I don't have any specific recommendations or ideas about how to help you, your daughter, or her teacher. However, I would like to suggest one thing: don't be the one to turn the relationship with the teacher (or future ones) into an antagonistic one.
A suggestion that something may be "going on" doesn't necessarily equal a judgment that something is "wrong" with your daughter. Rather than viewing your daughter as a problem that needs fixing, the teacher may be looking for an idea of how to adapt his/her teaching methods to fit your kid's circumstances.
posted by CKmtl at 6:46 PM on January 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
A suggestion that something may be "going on" doesn't necessarily equal a judgment that something is "wrong" with your daughter. Rather than viewing your daughter as a problem that needs fixing, the teacher may be looking for an idea of how to adapt his/her teaching methods to fit your kid's circumstances.
posted by CKmtl at 6:46 PM on January 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
My son was very like this at this age and he eventually was diagnosed with a fairly rare learning disorder known as a visual perception disorder and also with ADD. School has, quite frankly, never really worked out for him - he's now 17 - and when I look back I'm not sure exactly what more we could have done to make it work out better. At any rate, he was frustrating for his teachers and frustrating for me and we never really did get a handle on any of it; his civics teacher was practically in tears just this fall and I felt for him. A bright kid who just refuses to do his work; it's kind of like parenting Bartleby the Scrivener. He is not, currently, in school at all but is hopefully learning to be a carpenter: it seems to be the best solution for now.
I will say though, that for day to day stuff at your daughters age, realizing that he needed a LOT more transition time than other kids to move from one task to the next helped amazingly. Once I managed to get the teacher to also start him ten minutes before everyone else: "Math will be over in ten minutes. You'll need to start finishing up now." "Five minutes." "Three minutes" and so on, it really helped so that may be a tack you can take as well.
I strongly recommend that you get a full assessment from an educational psychologist: the earlier, the better. The school will do an assessment for you for free and I couldn't recommend it more strongly. They are kind; it's actually sort of fun for the kid - a day out of the classroom doing puzzles - and you'll walk out with lots more knowledge than you had before. My son wasn't diagnosed until fourth grade and I wish it had happened much earlier. I was frightened too and determined never to medicate and I didn't entirely believe in ADD and I thought that the school would suddenly come down on me like a ton of bricks and force drugs down his throat and it would all be awful but actually nothing like that happened. What happened was that I discovered a whole new way to look at my son's condition and somewhere to start with my own research and the school got a whole lot nicer about helping him learn than they had been when they just said he was lazy and bad and, yes, ODD.
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:06 PM on January 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
I will say though, that for day to day stuff at your daughters age, realizing that he needed a LOT more transition time than other kids to move from one task to the next helped amazingly. Once I managed to get the teacher to also start him ten minutes before everyone else: "Math will be over in ten minutes. You'll need to start finishing up now." "Five minutes." "Three minutes" and so on, it really helped so that may be a tack you can take as well.
I strongly recommend that you get a full assessment from an educational psychologist: the earlier, the better. The school will do an assessment for you for free and I couldn't recommend it more strongly. They are kind; it's actually sort of fun for the kid - a day out of the classroom doing puzzles - and you'll walk out with lots more knowledge than you had before. My son wasn't diagnosed until fourth grade and I wish it had happened much earlier. I was frightened too and determined never to medicate and I didn't entirely believe in ADD and I thought that the school would suddenly come down on me like a ton of bricks and force drugs down his throat and it would all be awful but actually nothing like that happened. What happened was that I discovered a whole new way to look at my son's condition and somewhere to start with my own research and the school got a whole lot nicer about helping him learn than they had been when they just said he was lazy and bad and, yes, ODD.
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:06 PM on January 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
She's very social, but has little interested in doing things for the sake of getting along with other people. Meaning she's immune to the hazards of peer pressure but also doesn't really care to do anything for the sake of seeming like the other kids. She also has little to no interest in obeying authority.
So she's not motivated by the idea of being like the other kids, or by doing something because the teacher says so...what would motivate her? Is there something she particularly likes to do at school (or at home) that could be used as a reward for, say doing her math and writing assignments? Daily Alice's idea for a behavior chart is a great one.
If, for her, there's no inherent value in doing things "because those are the rules," then maybe try giving value to following the rules by establishing some kind of reward system. Also, with behavior charts, you can fade them out over time as she gets the hang of doing what she needs to do at school.
Feel free to PM me if you have questions about the actual making of charts or about fading.
posted by corey flood at 7:25 PM on January 30, 2009
So she's not motivated by the idea of being like the other kids, or by doing something because the teacher says so...what would motivate her? Is there something she particularly likes to do at school (or at home) that could be used as a reward for, say doing her math and writing assignments? Daily Alice's idea for a behavior chart is a great one.
If, for her, there's no inherent value in doing things "because those are the rules," then maybe try giving value to following the rules by establishing some kind of reward system. Also, with behavior charts, you can fade them out over time as she gets the hang of doing what she needs to do at school.
Feel free to PM me if you have questions about the actual making of charts or about fading.
posted by corey flood at 7:25 PM on January 30, 2009
Jeez. If you have a child that doesn't listen at 6, it's because she has been raised for 6 years with no expectation that she will listen or obey. This is because the adults in her life have set no expectations for acceptable behavior. Children will by and large behave as you expect them to (not to be confused with "wish them to", "like them to", etc.). If you expect good behavior, you will get good behavior. Period. This might sound "old school", but I am amazed at how many parents "reason" or "negotiate" with their very young children to "encourage" a certain behavior. So many parents I encounter seem to think they are managing a worker in their office and talk to their children as if they just need some encouragement to do better on their next employment review. Children are children. They don't need, require, or even want to be reasoned with. They want clear and enforced boundaries. As they grow older you expand the diameter of their boundaries until as they approach adulthood you remove them completely, having done your job. Their memories of you doing your job to set the boundaries of behavior will, in turn, become their foundation for raising their children. That's what parents are supposed to do. Children, OTOH, push boundaries, that's what they are supposed to do. If you need a visual, they break your boundary by a half-step while looking over their shoulder waiting you to enforce that boundary. If you don't they feel unloved. It's what they want, it's what you want, but more importantly it's what they need. Your children are looking to you to create and enforce the rules and values they will live by initially, and hopefully for generations to come.
As a side note, another thing I notice is the high correlation to acceptable behavior from children with how much *time* they get to spend with their parents. I'm amazed at how well children behave if they spend a lot of time with their parents. It doesn't seem to matter what the education or economic level of the parents are, spending enormous amounts of time with your children seems to reap great benefits. I think too many parents, due to their work or other obligations, don't get to spend enough time with their kids. Screw quality time, I'm talking quantity time. I think the natural inclination of a parent who doesn't spend much time with their children is that they strive to make all the time "happy" time. No conflicts, no discipline. My feeling is that this does not ultimately serve the child well. Unlike Ford's slogan of years past, my personal slogan for the hours spent raising children is:
"Quantity is Job 1"
BTW, in case I come off as an old codger from decades past, my two daughers have birthdays next month. They'll be 7 & 5 years old and I stayed home to raise them until they were 4 & 2 and my wife has been tagged in as the full-time stay at home parent since then.
posted by Rafaelloello at 8:50 PM on January 30, 2009 [13 favorites]
As a side note, another thing I notice is the high correlation to acceptable behavior from children with how much *time* they get to spend with their parents. I'm amazed at how well children behave if they spend a lot of time with their parents. It doesn't seem to matter what the education or economic level of the parents are, spending enormous amounts of time with your children seems to reap great benefits. I think too many parents, due to their work or other obligations, don't get to spend enough time with their kids. Screw quality time, I'm talking quantity time. I think the natural inclination of a parent who doesn't spend much time with their children is that they strive to make all the time "happy" time. No conflicts, no discipline. My feeling is that this does not ultimately serve the child well. Unlike Ford's slogan of years past, my personal slogan for the hours spent raising children is:
"Quantity is Job 1"
BTW, in case I come off as an old codger from decades past, my two daughers have birthdays next month. They'll be 7 & 5 years old and I stayed home to raise them until they were 4 & 2 and my wife has been tagged in as the full-time stay at home parent since then.
posted by Rafaelloello at 8:50 PM on January 30, 2009 [13 favorites]
follow-up from the OP
Thanks for your feedback so far everyone. It's sobering and helpful to hear your perspectives. To clarify: I do believe it is important for my kid to learn to go with the program and follow the rules - at least more of the time than she is now! I've worked hard to create clear and consistent limits at home and to reinforce the program that happens at school. The reason I'm trying to think differently at this point is that so far, all the combined efforts of myself and her teachers have not worked. Its great to say that in theory she should be learning to follow rules at this age, but in practice she's getting more and more miserable and making her teacher more and more frustrated. So while I'm still going to reinforce the importance of consistent limits etc, I'm trying to think creatively here about some different solutions that we haven't already tried. Anyway, I do appreciate hearing your suggestions.posted by jessamyn at 8:52 PM on January 30, 2009
This sounds like me at age six. No, seriously. I don't remember much from that age, but I do have a very clear memory of my kindergarten teacher being exasperated because I'd wandered off sometime after lunch to paint rather than do ... whatever it was I was supposed to be doing. And I remember doing that a lot.
The thing with me was, I just couldn't see the point of doing anything I didn't enjoy, and (according to my mom, who remembers those days much more vividly) it was impossible to force me to do them. So the only solution was to find ways to make it fun for me. I had to learn to read/write Malay; I didn't want to learn; the solution was to teach me by making a bunch of flash cards and turning the whole thing into a game. After a few rounds of this at home I immediately started to pay attention during that class in school, because then I'd get better at the game and it's always fun to beat your mom at something.
So I think you just have to figure out why your kid doesn't want to do what she's supposed to do, and convince her she really wants to. Because it's fun, or really cool, or something. Make a game out of memorising times tables; convince her that standing in line is really essential to doing some group project; whatever. FWIW, for me it was just that I didn't want to do the boring stuff if I could do something awesome instead, and I had to be convinced that the boring stuff was either (a) not boring; or (b) essential to doing the awesome stuff.
(By the way, I still do this. In my first semester at uni I got a 92 for one subject and a 46 for another, simply because - as you might guess - I liked one subject and didn't like the other. I still graduated with top grades in the end.)
posted by Xany at 2:13 AM on January 31, 2009
The thing with me was, I just couldn't see the point of doing anything I didn't enjoy, and (according to my mom, who remembers those days much more vividly) it was impossible to force me to do them. So the only solution was to find ways to make it fun for me. I had to learn to read/write Malay; I didn't want to learn; the solution was to teach me by making a bunch of flash cards and turning the whole thing into a game. After a few rounds of this at home I immediately started to pay attention during that class in school, because then I'd get better at the game and it's always fun to beat your mom at something.
So I think you just have to figure out why your kid doesn't want to do what she's supposed to do, and convince her she really wants to. Because it's fun, or really cool, or something. Make a game out of memorising times tables; convince her that standing in line is really essential to doing some group project; whatever. FWIW, for me it was just that I didn't want to do the boring stuff if I could do something awesome instead, and I had to be convinced that the boring stuff was either (a) not boring; or (b) essential to doing the awesome stuff.
(By the way, I still do this. In my first semester at uni I got a 92 for one subject and a 46 for another, simply because - as you might guess - I liked one subject and didn't like the other. I still graduated with top grades in the end.)
posted by Xany at 2:13 AM on January 31, 2009
Jeez. If you have a child that doesn't listen at 6, it's because she has been raised for 6 years with no expectation that she will listen or obey.
Um, no. There are all kinds of reasons that kids might act this way, and poor parenting isn't the only one. Take a moment to reflect that many parents with a kid who has behavior problems also have one or more other kids who don't have the same problems. You don't sound "old school" - you sound like a judgmental jerk. Congratulations on having kids with no behavior problems, but don't imagine that it's all because of your wonderful efforts. Good parenting is always necessary, but it isn't always sufficient. Jeez.
posted by Daily Alice at 2:32 AM on January 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
Um, no. There are all kinds of reasons that kids might act this way, and poor parenting isn't the only one. Take a moment to reflect that many parents with a kid who has behavior problems also have one or more other kids who don't have the same problems. You don't sound "old school" - you sound like a judgmental jerk. Congratulations on having kids with no behavior problems, but don't imagine that it's all because of your wonderful efforts. Good parenting is always necessary, but it isn't always sufficient. Jeez.
posted by Daily Alice at 2:32 AM on January 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
Daily Alice: "18Jeez. If you have a child that doesn't listen at 6, it's because she has been raised for 6 years with no expectation that she will listen or obey.
Um, no. There are all kinds of reasons that kids might act this way, and poor parenting isn't the only one. Take a moment to reflect that many parents with a kid who has behavior problems also have one or more other kids who don't have the same problems. You don't sound "old school" - you sound like a judgmental jerk. Congratulations on having kids with no behavior problems, but don't imagine that it's all because of your wonderful efforts. Good parenting is always necessary, but it isn't always sufficient. Jeez."
Since you earlier wrote that "Oh wow. Except for the fact that my 6 year old is a he rather than a she, I could have written that description word for word. " and the OP begins "Strategies needed for negotiating with my 6 year old kid's school re: rules, behavior, etc." it seems you too are a single parent looking for "strategies" on "negotiating" acceptable behavior as well. My view is that behavioral problems or no, negotiation with small children is not the answer. You obviously disagree by citing your agreement with he OP as to your situation and what was written as the original approach to a solution. Fine, we disagree.
posted by Rafaelloello at 7:05 AM on January 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
Um, no. There are all kinds of reasons that kids might act this way, and poor parenting isn't the only one. Take a moment to reflect that many parents with a kid who has behavior problems also have one or more other kids who don't have the same problems. You don't sound "old school" - you sound like a judgmental jerk. Congratulations on having kids with no behavior problems, but don't imagine that it's all because of your wonderful efforts. Good parenting is always necessary, but it isn't always sufficient. Jeez."
Since you earlier wrote that "Oh wow. Except for the fact that my 6 year old is a he rather than a she, I could have written that description word for word. " and the OP begins "Strategies needed for negotiating with my 6 year old kid's school re: rules, behavior, etc." it seems you too are a single parent looking for "strategies" on "negotiating" acceptable behavior as well. My view is that behavioral problems or no, negotiation with small children is not the answer. You obviously disagree by citing your agreement with he OP as to your situation and what was written as the original approach to a solution. Fine, we disagree.
posted by Rafaelloello at 7:05 AM on January 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
If you actually read the sentence you just typed in, he's asking for strategies on negotiating with the school, not the kid. And I agreed with the description of the OP's child, not his entire post. And if you think that every kid who has behavior problems has been brought up with no rules and expectations, then yes, we disagree.
posted by Daily Alice at 8:47 AM on January 31, 2009
posted by Daily Alice at 8:47 AM on January 31, 2009
As a side note, another thing I notice is the high correlation to acceptable behavior from children with how much *time* they get to spend with their parents. I'm amazed at how well children behave if they spend a lot of time with their parents.
Well, the eleven+ years I spent at home with my son didn't prevent Sensory Processing Disorder or ADHD, so that just might shoot your theory down a bit. I didn't work outside the home, I talked to him and with all the time, I set consistent and age-appropriate expectations of behavior for him, we played, we socialized with other kids and parents, we did enriching things like going to museums and playgrounds, he had consequences, we had lots of fun, and still he has difficulties and issues. Go figure. I'm also not a single parent, so he often had two caring adults with him to guide him and teach him.
Sometimes we're just wired differently and for you to suggest that spending more time with your kid will cure him or her of all his or her ills is simply outrageous. And even though he has trouble focusing and finishing tasks and sitting still, and even though he sometimes acts reprehensibly at home (less so at school), he's a great kid. People tell me that all the time. Teachers tell me that all the time. People who understand his issues know that he doesn't act out because he's a bad kid or because I'm a bad parent. They know he's wired differently.
As to the OP, good for you for getting your daughter and yourself to a therapist. There may be nothing more at play here than school isn't a good fit for her. But if there's more going on, the earlier you seek help, the better it is for her and for you.
posted by cooker girl at 9:22 AM on January 31, 2009 [2 favorites]
Well, the eleven+ years I spent at home with my son didn't prevent Sensory Processing Disorder or ADHD, so that just might shoot your theory down a bit. I didn't work outside the home, I talked to him and with all the time, I set consistent and age-appropriate expectations of behavior for him, we played, we socialized with other kids and parents, we did enriching things like going to museums and playgrounds, he had consequences, we had lots of fun, and still he has difficulties and issues. Go figure. I'm also not a single parent, so he often had two caring adults with him to guide him and teach him.
Sometimes we're just wired differently and for you to suggest that spending more time with your kid will cure him or her of all his or her ills is simply outrageous. And even though he has trouble focusing and finishing tasks and sitting still, and even though he sometimes acts reprehensibly at home (less so at school), he's a great kid. People tell me that all the time. Teachers tell me that all the time. People who understand his issues know that he doesn't act out because he's a bad kid or because I'm a bad parent. They know he's wired differently.
As to the OP, good for you for getting your daughter and yourself to a therapist. There may be nothing more at play here than school isn't a good fit for her. But if there's more going on, the earlier you seek help, the better it is for her and for you.
posted by cooker girl at 9:22 AM on January 31, 2009 [2 favorites]
Your daughter sounds like she is a gifted child.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:07 AM on January 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by KokuRyu at 11:07 AM on January 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
Thinking laterally here, but there are several hobbies and activities which come with built in incentives for following the rules and doing the same thing as your peers.
There's something very beautiful about a whole class of martial arts students performing the same kata in unison, likewise there's something very uplifting about adding your voice to a large group all singing the same song.
Baking is fun and rewarding, but correct proportions and exact timing matter. If she decides that she wants to carry on painting or watching TV when the kitchen timer goes off, well... a burned cake teaches a memorable lesson.
Obviously your chosen activity would need to be something she really enjoyed to stop it becoming a battleground in the way that school has, but if you find the right hobby it might help her realise that not all rules are bad.
posted by the latin mouse at 12:39 PM on February 1, 2009
There's something very beautiful about a whole class of martial arts students performing the same kata in unison, likewise there's something very uplifting about adding your voice to a large group all singing the same song.
Baking is fun and rewarding, but correct proportions and exact timing matter. If she decides that she wants to carry on painting or watching TV when the kitchen timer goes off, well... a burned cake teaches a memorable lesson.
Obviously your chosen activity would need to be something she really enjoyed to stop it becoming a battleground in the way that school has, but if you find the right hobby it might help her realise that not all rules are bad.
posted by the latin mouse at 12:39 PM on February 1, 2009
for you to suggest that spending more time with your kid will cure him or her of all his or her ills is simply outrageous.
I don't know whether or not Rafaelloello also believes that there's a high correlation between birth defects and alcohol consumption during pregnancy. But if he comes out and says so, I'm not going to discuss my nephew's problems in painstaking detail or rant at him about his outrageous libel against my sister-in-law... I'm just going to assume that he knows the limits of "high correlation", that he was trying to offer useful advice for the people who could benefit by it, and that he wasn't trying to insult the exceptions.
posted by roystgnr at 3:36 PM on February 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
I don't know whether or not Rafaelloello also believes that there's a high correlation between birth defects and alcohol consumption during pregnancy. But if he comes out and says so, I'm not going to discuss my nephew's problems in painstaking detail or rant at him about his outrageous libel against my sister-in-law... I'm just going to assume that he knows the limits of "high correlation", that he was trying to offer useful advice for the people who could benefit by it, and that he wasn't trying to insult the exceptions.
posted by roystgnr at 3:36 PM on February 2, 2009 [1 favorite]
Nthing Applied Behavorial Analysis. This has been extremely effective in working with kids who have Autism Spectrum Disorder, like my son, who is also a wacky wonderful child.
You may want to consider an appointment with a developmental pediatrician to examine your child. I know that ASD is the last thing a parent wants to consider (I know it was for me) but it is treatable with ABA. My son has made enormous progress in the last 2.5 years. And if there is the slightest chance that your daughter has it, you need to know ASAP to take the appropriate steps.
It's great that you are taking your child to a doctor. But, often, pediatricians miss the autism diagnosis especially if it doesn't meet the "classic" definition of Autism. This happened with my sister's son (and yes there does appear to be a genetic link so take a good look at your family history and your husband's family history).
If you're in California, I would suggest asking for an evaluation from the School District. If your child does have ASD, one option will be to provide an adult aide for your child, who is with your child for the entire school day and shadows them. The aide will, when necessary, help direct your child to get in line, finish projects, etc. And if there is a problem, your aide is there to help your child learn to work through it. In a typical ABA scenario, a child is rewarded for every time that they get in line, etc. and well as being rewarded for having a good day (My son earns "screen" time, for example).
I certainly don't wish to alarm you and, of course, have no way of knowing what's going on with your daughter. But ASD seems a real possibility and it's much better to have her examined and find out she doesn't, than to let it go untreated.
And if your child does have it, that doesn't mean they can't have a fulfilling independent life. I fully expect my son to go to college, even grad school and do great things. However, if I had not started treatment right away, that might not have been the case.
posted by cjets at 4:40 PM on February 2, 2009
You may want to consider an appointment with a developmental pediatrician to examine your child. I know that ASD is the last thing a parent wants to consider (I know it was for me) but it is treatable with ABA. My son has made enormous progress in the last 2.5 years. And if there is the slightest chance that your daughter has it, you need to know ASAP to take the appropriate steps.
It's great that you are taking your child to a doctor. But, often, pediatricians miss the autism diagnosis especially if it doesn't meet the "classic" definition of Autism. This happened with my sister's son (and yes there does appear to be a genetic link so take a good look at your family history and your husband's family history).
If you're in California, I would suggest asking for an evaluation from the School District. If your child does have ASD, one option will be to provide an adult aide for your child, who is with your child for the entire school day and shadows them. The aide will, when necessary, help direct your child to get in line, finish projects, etc. And if there is a problem, your aide is there to help your child learn to work through it. In a typical ABA scenario, a child is rewarded for every time that they get in line, etc. and well as being rewarded for having a good day (My son earns "screen" time, for example).
I certainly don't wish to alarm you and, of course, have no way of knowing what's going on with your daughter. But ASD seems a real possibility and it's much better to have her examined and find out she doesn't, than to let it go untreated.
And if your child does have it, that doesn't mean they can't have a fulfilling independent life. I fully expect my son to go to college, even grad school and do great things. However, if I had not started treatment right away, that might not have been the case.
posted by cjets at 4:40 PM on February 2, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
I'll be interested to see what others have to say - from my end it's looking like a long slog unless we can help him get it together.
posted by Daily Alice at 2:58 PM on January 30, 2009